The Remarkable Leadership Podcast

00:00:08:12 - 00:00:38:13
Kevin Eikenberry
The title of this episode is Leading Through Technology and People. But if you're in a non-tech company, even if that exists, you're still in the right place. We're talking with a respected and experienced leader who has led technological innovations in technology driven companies, and been successful through the intelligence of her team and the quality of her leadership. This will be a practical and helpful conversation about where we're leading today and where we're moving in the future.

00:00:38:19 - 00:00:59:17
Kevin Eikenberry
Welcome to another episode of the Remarkable Leadership Podcast, where we are helping leaders like you grow personally and professionally to lead more effectively and make a bigger difference for their teams, organizations and the world. If you are listening to this podcast, you could join us in the future for live episodes, likely on your favorite social media platform.

00:00:59:18 - 00:01:26:08
Kevin Eikenberry
You can find out when those are happening. So then you can join us by either joining our Facebook or LinkedIn groups. Just two of the platforms where these take place. So you can just go to remarkable Podcast Academy Facebook or remarkable podcast.com/linkedin to get all the inside scoop. Get the dates and join us live. If you like what you're hearing today and want help developing the leaders in your organization, let's talk.

00:01:26:11 - 00:01:47:13
Kevin Eikenberry
Reach out to info at Kevin I can Broadcom. We'll schedule time to learn about your needs and see how we might be able to help. Now with that let me bring in our guest. Here she is all the way from Denmark today. Recently in Mexico. But today, at home or in her? In her space in Denmark. Her name is Louisa Lauren.

00:01:47:13 - 00:02:13:19
Kevin Eikenberry
She has led transformational growth across some of the world's most respected companies for over two decades. And on all continents. She has worked across B2B, BNC and within global tech, bridging commercial impact with human centered change. She serves on the boards of the Copenhagen Business School and Icap Private Equity, and is the author of the new book. You're used to hearing Me Say that.

00:02:13:21 - 00:02:28:12
Kevin Eikenberry
The author of this book, Leadership Anatomy in Motion, subtitled Empowering You to Lead Through Technology and People. And so, Louisa, thank you. Welcome. And thank you for being here. Welcome back to vacation to.

00:02:28:14 - 00:02:31:03
Louisa Loran
Thank you so much, Kevin. Great to be here.

00:02:31:05 - 00:02:54:12
Kevin Eikenberry
So, I, I, I get a lot of books and I read a lot of books, but I get a lot of books, and it's not very often that I get a book that has the word anatomy in the title, certainly for what might make this show. So I want to start with why leadership? Anatomy? Why is that the frame that you chose to use in the book and in the title?

00:02:54:14 - 00:03:22:11
Louisa Loran
Yeah. No thank you, Kevin. I think it's because when I have looked at so many encounters of change, transformation, those who have succeeded, those who have failed, it always comes back to a individual, a person who is choosing to change, willing to engage, etc. and I found that there are some certain behaviors that are all capable capabilities we hold that we just need to deploy.

00:03:22:12 - 00:03:43:11
Louisa Loran
So I'm kind of bringing the big world and changing ambiguity down to actually you have the anatomy to choose to succeed in change. So, I'm sure we'll get into more about those two elements of anatomy, but but it's fundamentally down to as a human being, you have the ability within you.

00:03:43:13 - 00:03:55:15
Kevin Eikenberry
So that leads me to two things. Number one is I think you've just given us the big idea of the book that this that transformation and change is big, but it really is personal and we have it in our ability to get there. Is that a fair way?

00:03:55:17 - 00:03:57:01
Louisa Loran
Absolutely, yes.

00:03:57:03 - 00:04:26:11
Kevin Eikenberry
Okay, so, the title is Leadership Anatomy and this is the Remarkable Leadership podcast. And yet you're hinting at something that, to me is super important and that is that change isn't really, at the end of the day, organizational. It's individual. Yes. And so while you're talking, while we're having this conversation and you've written about this from the leadership perspective, with that leadership hat on, all of these ideas apply to us, whether we're the leader or not.

00:04:26:11 - 00:04:29:05
Kevin Eikenberry
In a given change. Would you agree to that?

00:04:29:07 - 00:04:48:21
Louisa Loran
Absolutely, absolutely. And I think that that the thing is that as a leader, you are expected to lead the way. You are expected to be at the forefront of driving this change. And of course, the impact, if you do not do so, is much bigger. That does not mean that other people are off the hook, but your impact is significantly wider.

00:04:48:21 - 00:05:14:22
Louisa Loran
And it's interesting because I work with top executives and high and C-suite for most of my career, and when I then started writing this book, all my, let's say, social engagement and friends, some of them said, well, this is not for me. I'm not going to be able to understand it. But I will tell you, my mom 60, sorry, 75 years old, she's reading it now and she keeps coming to me and saying, oh, this makes so much sense for me as well.

00:05:14:22 - 00:05:30:23
Louisa Loran
She's a physiotherapist, has nothing to do with this world. I told. But as you said, it is a human change and something that is relevant for all. But even more important, if you actually are in a position where your circle spread wider.

00:05:31:01 - 00:05:50:21
Kevin Eikenberry
So it leads me to a question wasn't on my list, which is usually which, by the way, everybody are usually the best questions, the ones that just come to me in the moment. So I love this conversation. I've often said that there's no such thing as organizational change. There's just individual change. And but I've also had lots of leaders share this question with me.

00:05:50:21 - 00:06:13:07
Kevin Eikenberry
So I'm going to share it with you. And the question is, okay, I know I have this role as a leader to lead this change or to to forward this change. I get that, I accept that. What about when I don't really buy the change myself? What's your advice to a leader when that's the situation? I mean, because there are almost all of us are leaders somewhere in the middle, right?

00:06:13:11 - 00:06:24:00
Kevin Eikenberry
Like, yeah, even a CEO has a board of directors, right? So like what? What's your advice or counsel to a person who's feeling that might be feeling that as they're listening?

00:06:24:02 - 00:06:49:21
Louisa Loran
Yeah, I feel that anyone at any level has a responsibility to build a path towards something they believe in. That does not necessarily mean that if the information you have received does not resonate with you, it's black or white, you're in or out, but you look at that direction and you find out which are the parts that could be meaningful to you and that you could contribute to.

00:06:49:23 - 00:07:06:12
Louisa Loran
I think what's really important is if this is, let's say, a very small overlap, you may have to have a conversation first with yourself and then with your your boss and your peers, etc., that this is what you're going to contribute. But do the homework to say, how am I actually going to be able to contribute with this?

00:07:06:14 - 00:07:28:05
Louisa Loran
I'm still surprised with how many people put in hours and effort and blood, sweat and tears into something that when you step a step back, you go. But the owner wants this, the board wants this, and you're doing something completely different. Do you not realize that you're wasting your resources and actually hampering the change that this company is going through?

00:07:28:07 - 00:07:54:06
Louisa Loran
So a lot of people are so busy responding to their immediate KPI or boss's question, or whatever it may be, own stories in their own head that they actually don't make that correlation and therefore waste efforts. Instead of saying first, how can I find my own motivation towards this change? And if you've done that work and you really cannot find it, then I invite you to bring your energy elsewhere.

00:07:54:08 - 00:08:11:19
Kevin Eikenberry
Yeah. So I want to I want to go back to something you said at the beginning of that, statement that I think it's really important. You said, you use the phrase black or white. And I think that in my response to people that have that question, it's often that they like it's not a toggle switch. Right.

00:08:11:21 - 00:08:36:19
Kevin Eikenberry
And you write about that in the book that it's not just a toggle switch. And so not almost any change, has some downsides, right? The question is, does it have more upsides and downsides? And when we acknowledge the tension between those things and in fact, if we can and when we can, we actually become more effective at leading the change because we're acknowledging that and it helps us to get through the resistance of others as well.

00:08:36:21 - 00:09:01:05
Louisa Loran
And absolutely. And we're so used to this confirmation bias. We sit in teams that have the same context, the same narrative, and then you come up with all the things that could go wrong. And everyone reinforces that. Instead of saying, what else could be true? And what if we looked at it a different way? What are some of these unknowns that could become knowns if we bring in the right information and build confidence in these new routes?

00:09:01:07 - 00:09:16:18
Louisa Loran
And I think there's a lot of this that is, let's say, mind games in the personal sense, but strategizing on, on corporate level that actually can build a very, very strong path forward for more successful change.

00:09:16:20 - 00:09:34:04
Kevin Eikenberry
So you're getting now at something that I was hoping we'd get to a little bit later, but we probably need to give people the context. So, because I'm going to come back, I put a pin in something there, but I want to get let you say, okay, the leadership anatomy, you've got four parts of our anatomy, if you will, that you want us to talk about.

00:09:34:04 - 00:09:41:12
Kevin Eikenberry
So, so why don't you just give us those four things at a very high level, and then I want to dive into some stuff inside of that, okay?

00:09:41:13 - 00:10:10:20
Louisa Loran
Of course, of course. Well, I would say obviously, but not obviously. But the first one is, is about what you see. So envisioning ambitiously, like opening your eyes, seeing the potential, truly envisioning as the first one. The second one is breathing life into that one. So it's expanding with curiosity. And there are a lot of layers to how does one expand, and something that people will that to default not to doing when they are under pressure off.

00:10:10:20 - 00:10:36:23
Louisa Loran
And so expanding is the second one, the third one is then stirring decisively. So it's really about prioritizing, communicating and actually making those choices to make sure it doesn't just become a dream or, morphing into nothing. And the last one, which is that, probably most distinctive and important one and why you can see who succeeds and who doesn't is about embodying with presence.

00:10:37:01 - 00:10:58:07
Louisa Loran
And you can see the where the first one was really about the eyes. The second one is about your lungs expanding and breathing into it. The third one is the limbs, the arms and prioritizing and steering moving. And the fourth one, the embodying, is the spine. It's not rigid, it's strong, it's tall, but it's still agile in its movement.

00:10:58:09 - 00:11:23:09
Kevin Eikenberry
So I wanted you said something earlier, and I did want to give people context as they're listening, for that. But something that you said a minute ago about being aware that we could end up if we all have the same contextual framework, we all have the same perspective that it can cause us challenges. You use a phrase in the book which I think is really important, and it's the idea of collective intelligence.

00:11:23:14 - 00:11:38:13
Kevin Eikenberry
So can we talk about that for a minute? Like number one, I mean, everyone knows those two words and we could probably even surmise what they mean together. But talk about that. But then more importantly, like, what are some things we can do as a leader to help make that happen?

00:11:38:15 - 00:11:56:23
Louisa Loran
Yeah, yeah. No, I think I, I'm a strong believer in the potential of collective intelligence, but I don't think we use it very actively because we go into conversations with our, perceived notion. And then we want people to either reconfirm or say, yes, no, we're not actually saying, okay, let's say there are eight people in this room.

00:11:57:01 - 00:12:22:12
Louisa Loran
They all have knowledge, brain power, capacity. And if you bring in an AI, then there's even more than, let's say nine people because that has access to to even more. And how do you truly leverage that intelligence that's there? And I think one of the things that's been interesting throughout my career is, is forcing yourself to be open in that discovery, forcing yourself to look at that complimentary knowledge.

00:12:22:12 - 00:12:48:23
Louisa Loran
I can say I was once a yeah. And the professor gave us a good task and he said, so would you rather have a team that consists of 80% confident, capable people that are 80% confident? Or would you have a team that's 20% competent and 60% confident? And logically, a lot of people went to the 8080 because they seemed to know what was right.

00:12:49:01 - 00:13:08:16
Louisa Loran
But the problem is, when you are too confident, you don't ask those questions, and you don't remain curious about what are the blind spots that you may be having, whereas the other team that knows they are not the best in the world, they will be curious. They will be asking questions. They will be exploring whether other people could better fit in.

00:13:08:18 - 00:13:37:14
Louisa Loran
And I think this is such an interesting perspective that we often go for the easy thing that ends up costing us, because we don't understand that there is a huge potential in the collective intelligence. I would also say from a organizational perspective, as a leader, you are highly likely to carry a huge cloud when you engage in a conversation and people want to impress and, look good in your presence.

00:13:37:16 - 00:13:57:03
Louisa Loran
So how do you make sure that you are truly creating the context so that they understand which small piece of the puzzle could they be contributing with? Because it's also going to be painful if everyone says, here's my 100%, go look at it. But instead of saying, here's the context, here's the piece of the puzzle I'm missing, who has a potential to add to that?

00:13:57:05 - 00:14:32:06
Kevin Eikenberry
There's a real unintentional thing that leaders do here. That gets in the way, and it's I won't it's not always I'm expressing positive intent here. Assuming positive intent that it's unintentional. It is sometimes intentional, but regardless of intention, it's a problem. And that is if we want if we as the leader. Because, as you said rightly, that we have clout, whether we're whether it's just with our team or we're the leader of the, you know, like there's multiple levels, doesn't matter.

00:14:32:08 - 00:14:56:02
Kevin Eikenberry
The more levels, the more clout. But here's the point. Point is, if we try to set context so much that we we frame the problem too much, then we will not get the expansive thinking that we want. And if we try to be helpful by sharing our perspective first, we have we have tunneled. We've tunnel vision. The group most likely.

00:14:56:04 - 00:14:59:10
Kevin Eikenberry
Yeah. So you're nodding. So you want to add to that.

00:14:59:12 - 00:15:33:01
Louisa Loran
Yeah. No I absolutely agree. And I will of course admit and hopefully everyone does that. I've done this multiple times mistakenly as well. So you learn through that process. But what I think is also interesting when you have been an executive is companies like Diageo and White, Hennessy or Merck, big traditional conglomerates. And you move to a company like Google, you also see the difference between a traditional hierarchical leadership culture and one which is significantly more built on platform and, collective intelligence by design.

00:15:33:03 - 00:16:04:13
Louisa Loran
I'm not saying one is better than the other, but I am saying that the enablement of access to information that some of these tech companies build, invites for more contribution. What I believe could be learned from some of the more traditional companies is then the steering. And the more strategic direction. So people become more purposeful in their contributions, because otherwise you will also have an organization where people have an opinion about everything, and it may be great, but some things are not appropriate for the job.

00:16:04:13 - 00:16:09:19
Louisa Loran
So thank you for applying your open mind in this context.

00:16:09:21 - 00:16:32:21
Kevin Eikenberry
Exactly. Which means two things. Number one, we need to have the open mind as the leader, right? But we need to stay out of it and and invite others to bring their open minded, make it okay for them to to do that. Because if we don't, we're not going to get it. They have perspective. They will choose not to share unless we make it at, safe and expected to do those things.

00:16:32:21 - 00:16:36:06
Kevin Eikenberry
And we have to do that by modeling, and that means we got to stay out.

00:16:36:08 - 00:17:05:15
Louisa Loran
Most interesting things I've found is I've worked across multiple industries, both within these businesses, but also supporting customers across multiple industries and even at the highest level, when general executives are good at, let's say, keeping informed of what's going on in their environment. And it's where who are the industry leaders and who are the followers? There is a, missed opportunity of understanding the business models and revenue models of some of the adjacent businesses and the interdependencies.

00:17:05:17 - 00:17:43:19
Louisa Loran
So when you come in and show, let's say, a, banking or insurance company how a telco company operates, it's like it's a completely new language to them when actually there are a lot of, comparable learnings. But even more, there are dependencies that they should be aware of. So it's not just down, it's also across. And I think that's where this openness is even more important in today's day and age, where the transformation is dependent on industries moving, and also at a point in time where geopolitically people need to build in significantly more adaptability into how they run their businesses.

00:17:43:21 - 00:18:04:06
Kevin Eikenberry
One of the things I really like, in the visioning section, when you're talking about strategy, which, you wouldn't have had to have read the book to guess that if we're talking about visioning, a strategy would come up. But one of the things I like about your conversation about strategy is the is the idea of framing, and it's it's connected to what we've been talking about.

00:18:04:06 - 00:18:15:09
Kevin Eikenberry
But say more about, about strategy and framing and what that means and how as we as leaders can, can take into context this idea of framing.

00:18:15:11 - 00:18:31:22
Louisa Loran
Yeah, I think a lot of people who do strategies, unfortunately, they say, what's my budget? How can I increase a couple of percentages? And, how do I let's say, make minimal impact to my organization because people don't like change.

00:18:32:00 - 00:18:35:22
Kevin Eikenberry
Which I wouldn't even call strategy. I'd call tactics. But nonetheless, I agree.

00:18:36:00 - 00:18:57:02
Louisa Loran
I agree, but nonetheless, a lot of people do spend their time polishing up PowerPoint decks to do this. You know, instead of going and saying what could be the future that we want to step into? And this is where I give a couple of examples, and I've seen teams get really excited when you challenge them to be a bit more creative.

00:18:57:04 - 00:19:20:22
Louisa Loran
Imagine that you had unlimited resources. Imagine you were owned by these people. Imagine you had access to this data, or if you deconstructed your company from the current silos and reconstructed it in different formats, how would you do? And then people go into panic. But we can. And this team and this leader, it's like, no, at this point of the process, we are simply playing.

00:19:21:00 - 00:19:25:01
Kevin Eikenberry
This is a thinking exercise is exercise.

00:19:25:03 - 00:19:42:20
Louisa Loran
And I think unfortunately, a lot of great leaders do not give themselves the space to do this. And then they allow people from other industries, tech companies, or whatever it may be to come in with a different perspective and actually eat part of their lunch.

00:19:42:22 - 00:20:22:21
Kevin Eikenberry
One of the things that, we have strong agreement on, you talk about the problem with busyness. I have long said that busy is the most dangerous four letter word. Yeah. Which language? You just hinted at it there that leaders are too busy to think. When I think you and I would both agree that maybe the most important work of a leader, or certainly one of the most important parts of a leader's job, is to think so why do you see busyness as being so dangerous?

00:20:22:23 - 00:20:58:05
Louisa Loran
I think it's an excuse. So people appear busy. They do activities to show their worth instead of actually realizing what is the contribution I need to make and focus on that. I think in several layers of the organization, even either if the vision is not clear, the priorities aren't fair, etc., then you do this, especially in times of of of budget cuts and organizational change, just to show that you cannot be replaced and removed.

00:20:58:07 - 00:21:32:09
Louisa Loran
But, but busyness is just as much a thing in people's mind, right? You can be busy by reading all the media headlines today, and you can jump on every single headline that's there. Or you can step back and say, if I look at the bigger currents, what I actually things that I need to react to. So I think it's very much a symptom of organizations, of behaviors of times and people are afraid to leave the office a little bit earlier because then they don't look busy, where instead they should be clearing their mind to say, I've, I've now taken a step back.

00:21:32:09 - 00:21:41:18
Louisa Loran
I now have perspective, and I understand which element is the most essential that I need to do, and I'm going to lead the way with that.

00:21:41:20 - 00:22:05:21
Kevin Eikenberry
I think the the really important piece here is that beyond everything you just said, which I agree with 100%, is that where you started was busyness as an excuse, which I agree with 100%. And I think especially in change moment times of change, times of transformation, that's one of the big resisters we don't have time and we're too busy to make the change.

00:22:06:00 - 00:22:29:01
Kevin Eikenberry
They're not even focused on the outcome of the change, just the impact on their calendar. In the short term. And so organizations that are stuck in the, in the busyness or activity mentality versus an accomplishment mentality or mindset that that becomes the first problem in getting this, getting the transformation to to move.

00:22:29:03 - 00:22:50:02
Louisa Loran
Yeah, I will say I'm meeting with an executive tomorrow, and I kind of hope he's not listening to this podcast because I will not mention names, but put him a bit out there. So the brief is basically he's too busy and there are cutting teams and he's frustrated where I'm like, well, those two basically just say that you haven't done your leadership job to me.

00:22:50:04 - 00:23:10:16
Louisa Loran
So I'm just going to say to him, okay, let's not look at you've been cut. 1020, 15%, whatever it may be. Let's start from what you need to do. And let's assume you only have half of the capacity. Let's start from that and then build up. And if you can add more, great. But you will know it's easier to say if I only have 50%.

00:23:10:16 - 00:23:27:16
Louisa Loran
What is most important to me in line with the strategy versus shaving. And it is scary how many companies still shave and shave and shave and shave instead of looking at what do we need to do? Staff that up, look at the interdependencies and align behind that.

00:23:27:18 - 00:23:43:18
Kevin Eikenberry
See, it's the idea behind zero based budgeting, taking it from a different perspective. Right? But like let's start with a clean sheet of paper. And what do we really need? What are the things that must get done? What are the things we have to accomplish which is different than what? What are the activities that are happening? Right. Which is all about what we're talking about.

00:23:43:22 - 00:23:44:23
Kevin Eikenberry
If they want to.

00:23:45:01 - 00:23:55:01
Louisa Loran
They don't like the word zero based budgeting, right? Because it sounds like I don't trust you, when in fact it should be. You have a huge opportunity to define the future.

00:23:55:03 - 00:24:15:08
Kevin Eikenberry
100%, 100%. And on page 103, I know you don't know what you wrote on page 103, so I'm going to read it. I'm going to read this, this call out in the book and, and have you comment on it before we start to move into to close our conversation. You say change does not happen in a single moment of clarity.

00:24:15:08 - 00:24:28:07
Kevin Eikenberry
It gains traction when people have the space to engage with it, internalize it, and make it their own. Comments. It's brilliant and it's profoundly true. But what do you want to say about it?

00:24:28:09 - 00:24:50:17
Louisa Loran
I think it goes back to where we started. If if you do not agree with that, that strategy that said, you need to find your own path towards it. But I think we also need to realize that everyone is on their own journey. Everyone wants something out of a job or activity that they do. And I've truly learned how very, very different those things can be.

00:24:50:19 - 00:25:17:03
Louisa Loran
Respect how different they are because sometimes it is indeed I want to learn sometimes is is I want to be appreciated. Sometimes it is. I want to prove that this is possible, and I don't really care whether anyone can see it. So that giving people some of those questions to reflect on themselves so they can become clearer, I find very, very essential in driving change because you may motivate them to take a step forward.

00:25:17:03 - 00:25:30:18
Louisa Loran
But if they don't know why they're taking that step forward for themselves, they are going to try to move back. And if you do get that, then chances are they're going to take the next five themselves without you having to actually be an active role in it.

00:25:30:20 - 00:25:54:11
Kevin Eikenberry
I agree 100%. So before we finish, let me say there's a couple of things. And I know you did your homework, so you already know what these questions are. And she's well prepared. Everybody. I am curious when you're not helping executives think about and move through transit transitions and, transformations. What do you do for fun?

00:25:54:13 - 00:26:16:18
Louisa Loran
Well, I would say I do give it away in the book as well. So, I have two teenage sons, so they give me a lot of fun, on all kinds of levels. But otherwise I dance. Dance is my, let's say it's my, time to take all the thinking, ground it and be clear.

00:26:16:18 - 00:26:26:21
Louisa Loran
What let's say was, was something that needs to be part of my future. Step forward. And what needs to just be, an experience that moves past.

00:26:26:23 - 00:26:51:08
Kevin Eikenberry
Long time listeners will know this next question is coming in because Louisa listened to head. She knows this question is coming, but I haven't said in a long time why I asked this question. So before I ask it, I'm going to sort of give background for everybody. When I was young, I had some, someone who I, valued a mentor, if you will, say Kevin, when you meet people that you respect or that you think you could learn something from, one of the things you should ask them is what are they reading?

00:26:51:13 - 00:27:07:09
Kevin Eikenberry
So when I started this show, 500 almost 530 episodes ago, I said, I'm going to ask that question of all of these wise, smart, learned people. And so Louisa, what are you reading these days?

00:27:07:11 - 00:27:31:06
Louisa Loran
I'm going to give you a slightly long answer, because, as you said, I literally just returned from vacation two days ago. So it's a lighter read section. What do you bring on vacation and and teenage boys who want to disturb at all the point of time. But on my vacation, I read three books. I read Fusion Strategy, which is a, I would say, adjacent topic to what, I write about.

00:27:31:06 - 00:27:54:23
Louisa Loran
I would say it's a lot more industrial and process oriented. So when I read it, I thought, if people have read this, they should definitely read mine afterwards because this gives you a bit of the, the, the infrastructure. And then you need to actually know how to mobilize people. Then I read a, what do you call it, a story, by a Danish author.

00:27:54:23 - 00:28:21:10
Louisa Loran
It's about a group of young, you know, young people who are old time friends. And they're at this stage in life where they're questioning relation and motivations and ambitions, and it's just a nice light read. But one of those that actually makes you think as well, like. Who do I benefit from? And should I reframe some of my good social relationships that can contribute to more?

00:28:21:12 - 00:28:43:15
Louisa Loran
And the last book I wrote read was one I got from my dance partner called, The Inner Game of Tennis. It is, not a new book. Also like read, but it was, it was a good one to read on vacation and it and a good reminder of, of how you shape performance. So I will say, I have two other books, insight that I want to read next.

00:28:43:15 - 00:29:10:23
Louisa Loran
I haven't decided which one's going to go first, but one is called The Hour Between Dog and Wolf. It is written by a, Wall Street trader turned professor, and it talks a lot about embodied presence and complements it with science and tries to understand how, how people actually drive change. And the other one, which probably should be read by everyone, is called Choke Point.

00:29:11:01 - 00:29:18:16
Louisa Loran
It's about weaponized section of the economy and global trade. So one of those two will be what I what.

00:29:18:16 - 00:29:20:08
Kevin Eikenberry
Was the title of the last one again?

00:29:20:10 - 00:29:21:09
Louisa Loran
Choke point.

00:29:21:11 - 00:29:23:13
Kevin Eikenberry
Choke point. Yeah, we will have.

00:29:23:14 - 00:29:28:18
Louisa Loran
All right I'm talking with the. They're good. I'm just saying they for me made the should read list.

00:29:28:20 - 00:29:47:14
Kevin Eikenberry
There aren't that there aren't Louisa should read list. And maybe they'll be on yours. Or at least not everybody they're on your list. That is, if you go to the show notes to find them where you also find, of course, Lewis's book anatomy. Excuse me? Leadership, anatomy in Motion. So let me say, as I hold the book up for those who are watching, where do you want to point people?

00:29:47:14 - 00:29:51:11
Kevin Eikenberry
What do people where can people connect with you, learn more, etc.?

00:29:51:13 - 00:30:17:11
Louisa Loran
Of course. Well, the book is available anywhere. So I will say there have been some distribution issues. So please, if it's slow, write to me. But on Amazon on any bookstore that you can find anywhere around the world should be available. Otherwise you can reach me on LinkedIn under Louisa Lauren or on Salon.com, where I do keep content updated with all my podcasts and other stuff.

00:30:17:11 - 00:30:34:21
Louisa Loran
And then I would say I'm I'm loving that. I am today, continuously learning with more executives and helping them through their change, which fortunately also brings me around the world. So. So stay close and maybe there will be an opportunity to meet face to face or on a stage somewhere.

00:30:34:23 - 00:30:59:13
Kevin Eikenberry
Louisa lauren.com. And so everybody, before we go, the question that I always ask you isn't going to change in 2020 hasn't changed in 2026. And that is now what what action will you take from what you heard today? There were plenty of practical things that we talked about that had, foundational underpinnings that hopefully make them make sense to you.

00:30:59:16 - 00:31:18:12
Kevin Eikenberry
But none of it matters if you don't take some action. So it's my hope, our hope that you take some action from this conversation. And the way to start that, to determine that is by asking yourself the question, okay, now what? So, Louisa, thank you so much for being here. It was such a pleasure to spend some time with you today.

00:31:18:12 - 00:31:20:13
Kevin Eikenberry
Thanks again for being. Thank you.

00:31:20:15 - 00:31:23:02
Louisa Loran
My.

00:31:23:04 - 00:31:41:00
Kevin Eikenberry
And so, everybody, it's been my pleasure to have you here. And if this is your first time, let's not make it your last time. And if it isn't your first time, make sure you're subscribed. Either way, make sure you subscribe so you don't miss any future episodes, because we'll be back next week with another episode of the Remarkable Leadership Podcast.