Professional Development

Habits that Separate the Best Leaders from the Rest with William Vanderbloemen

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What if the key to unlocking your leadership potential lies in 12 data-driven habits? It’s William Vanderbloemen’s job to find the “unicorn” or that special candidate who will make a big impact on a team and organization. Through research from 30,000 face-to-face interviews, he identified 12 habits unicorns have in common. William joins Kevin to discuss the importance of habits in leadership and reminds us that these are teachable, learnable, and coachable. He highlights the role of self-awareness, responsiveness, and anticipation in becoming a successful leader. William also provides practical tips for hiring managers on identifying and attracting top talent.

Listen For

00:00 Introduction to Leadership Habits
03:20 The Role of Faith in Leadership
07:45 Discussing the Book 'Culture Wins'
11:30 Importance of Transparency in Teams
15:50 Challenges in Remote Work Leadership
20:10 Building a Strong Company Culture Remotely
24:35 Effective Communication in Remote Teams
28:50 Future Trends in Remote Work
33:15 Closing Remarks and Takeaways

View Full Transcript

00:00:08:12 - 00:00:32:01
Kevin Eikenberry
When people talk about building leadership effectiveness, the focus is usually on skills. And we can we talk a lot about valuable skills on this show. But often what is underappreciated is the role of habits. Today we're going to change that. We're going to talk about habits and heighten and highlight the role of habits and what they have to our success as an individual, as a leader.

00:00:32:03 - 00:00:54:05
Kevin Eikenberry
And we're actually going to identify some of the most powerful ones that you can exhibit. Welcome to another episode of the Remarkable Leadership podcast, where we are helping leaders grow personally and professionally to lead more effectively and make a bigger difference for their teams. Organization and the world. If you're listening to this podcast in the future, you could join us when we are live, which could give you access to this information sooner.

00:00:54:10 - 00:01:18:18
Kevin Eikenberry
And you can watch live in the future on your favorite social channels. So if you'd be interested in doing that, you just need to join one of these two groups, either our Facebook group or our LinkedIn group. You can do that to get information about when we're live and other information about the show by going to remarkable podcast dot com slash Facebook or Maqbool podcast dot com slash linked in.

00:01:18:20 - 00:01:42:09
Kevin Eikenberry
Simple as that. Today's episode is brought to you by our remarkable master classes pick from 13 important life and leadership skills to help you become more effective, productive and confident while overcoming some of the leader's toughest challenges. Learn more and sign up at remarkable master class dot com. Our guest today you see him beside me if you're watching.

00:01:42:11 - 00:01:49:07
Kevin Eikenberry
Our guest today is William Vanderbloemen. That's how I've been saying in my head, am I right?

00:01:49:09 - 00:01:51:16
William Vanderbloemen
Pretty close. I've been called a lot worse.

00:01:51:18 - 00:01:57:06
Kevin Eikenberry
It's like, well, you say it, you say it the way it needs to be said, and then I'll introduce you.

00:01:57:07 - 00:02:04:04
William Vanderbloemen
Well, I'll say it the way the Americans have said it. I don't know how it was set over in the Netherlands, but Vanderbloemen. Like flowers.

00:02:04:10 - 00:02:10:18
Kevin Eikenberry
Vanderbloemen. And so that was my second choice in my head. Vanderbloemen and William Vanderbloemen as our guest. Yeah.

00:02:10:19 - 00:02:19:12
William Vanderbloemen
I only know that because I somehow during middle school it got out that it's like Flower Boy is pretty much the name, so that didn't work.

00:02:19:12 - 00:02:49:21
Kevin Eikenberry
So yeah, that sounds like a very middle school sort of thing. William has been leading the Vanderbloemen Women's Search Group for 15 years, where they are regularly retained to identify the best talent for teams managed succession planning and consulting on all issues regarding teams. This year they will complete their 3000 executive search. I bet by now they've done that prior to founding this company, the Vander Blumen Search Group, he studied executive search under a mentor with 25 years of executive search experience at the highest levels.

00:02:49:23 - 00:03:10:08
Kevin Eikenberry
His learning taught him the very best corporate practices, including search strategies used by the internationally known firm Russell Reynolds. Prior to that, he served as senior pastor at one of the largest Presbyterian churches in the United States. And now he is the author of this fabulous new book, Be The Unicorn 12 Data Driven Habits that Separate the Best Leaders from the Rest.

00:03:10:09 - 00:03:15:12
Kevin Eikenberry
That's the title of this episode, and that is our guest. William, welcome. Glad to have you.

00:03:15:14 - 00:03:19:23
William Vanderbloemen
Thanks, Kevin. Super glad to be with you and appreciate you having me on.

00:03:20:01 - 00:03:47:17
Kevin Eikenberry
It's my pleasure. So that intro says, Well, we already heard about your middle school scenario, but that that intro tells us a little bit about your journey. Like you're in executive search and have been for a long time. But before that, you were a pastor. So I don't need you to tell us your whole life story. But I would like to know, like, how you and how you went from that being a pastor to do and this like Tell us a little bit about that last stage of this journey.

00:03:47:19 - 00:04:07:22
William Vanderbloemen
I think it actually the last stage is just a bookend to the first stage. And the first stage is growing up as a kid, I was always the one with an entrepreneurial bent or an idea. You know, I was the paper boy back when you had to do that, which was a fabulous job that we've lost as times have changed.

00:04:07:22 - 00:04:36:16
William Vanderbloemen
But, you know, I'm eight years old. I had to keep my own pencil. I had to do my own collections. I, I mean, it's amazing. But I actually bought out the roots around me and then redistributed the densities and sold them back off to other paper boys. And that's the picture of of young me that took a long winding road and now ended up back in sort of an entrepreneurial thing, trying to help a part of the world that I spent part of my career.

00:04:36:16 - 00:04:58:22
William Vanderbloemen
And so did a prodigal journey in college. I was really good at that. I know everything my daughters better not bring home in a date and then I kind of got back on track and that included a spiritual journey. And that led to, well, I guess I should try to help others find this kind of wonderful life change.

00:04:58:22 - 00:05:30:23
William Vanderbloemen
So I went into the pastorate, didn't want to. I thought pastors just sat around in robes all week with bad hair and asked people for money. And I know you know, but I had a chance to serve some really great people. Was probably always a little too entrepreneurial for the more established part of churches. Went through divorce, which I would not recommend, but that left me as a single dad with four kids and having to figure out a kind of pivot in life.

00:05:31:01 - 00:05:39:13
William Vanderbloemen
I wasn't in any shape to get given very spiritual guidance. I was trying to put my life back together and I went to work for an oil and gas company.

00:05:39:15 - 00:05:41:11
Kevin Eikenberry
Because you're in Houston. Why not?

00:05:41:13 - 00:06:00:18
William Vanderbloemen
Well, that's the thing, right? I had a lot of friends in the business. One of them runs or was on the lead team at a Fortune 200 company and he said, Come work for us. And I said, I don't know anything about all that. He said, Yeah, but you know, people. So we'll put you in h.r. For a year and we'll teach you the business and then we'll rotate you around and so forth.

00:06:00:20 - 00:06:25:17
William Vanderbloemen
So during that year, the ceo decided I need to find my successor. He'd been there nine and a half years, which is a lifetime for a ceo of a fortune 200 company. They hired this thing called a search firm. I'd never heard of it. It was a brand new idea to me. And since I was brand new on the H.R. team, I was on the succession team, which air quotes means I was kind of a waterboy and nothing.

00:06:25:18 - 00:06:29:00
Kevin Eikenberry
But you get to learn a bunch of stuff. But I got to watch a lot of the search business.

00:06:29:06 - 00:06:48:21
William Vanderbloemen
That's right. And 90 days after they started, they had a new CEO. And that is not the way the church works. Kevin First Press, Houston, where I First Presbyterian, Houston where I was, which was in the small world of Presbyterian ism, kind of a big thing. They took three years to find me. I was there six. They took three years to find the next guy.

00:06:48:22 - 00:06:52:13
William Vanderbloemen
So 12 years, half with somebody, half like.

00:06:52:13 - 00:06:55:01
Kevin Eikenberry
Half with somebody, half without money.

00:06:55:04 - 00:07:16:16
William Vanderbloemen
That's crazy. No company can begin to endure that and all the momentum would be lost. And so when I saw the business solution, why didn't the church have a as good a solution as I know the church world, maybe I can help them get a little bit more efficient in how they run things. And I went home and Adrian and I had just gotten married a few months prior.

00:07:16:16 - 00:07:29:21
William Vanderbloemen
We blended our families with six kids, a house we could barely afford, really no money at all. And I said, Adrian, I think I'm I think I'm supposed to quit my job and start something new for churches. And I said.

00:07:30:00 - 00:07:31:03
Kevin Eikenberry
Awesome, I'm sure you're going to.

00:07:31:03 - 00:08:01:09
William Vanderbloemen
She said, Even better. She's smart. Bad taste in men, but smart. She said, that's because churches love new ideas, right? Said No one ever in the history of ever. Right. And and Kevin, the kicker is it was the fall of 2008. So if you're if you're younger listeners that doesn't compute. Just Google 2008 economy.

00:08:01:11 - 00:08:02:09
Kevin Eikenberry
Yeah you'll figure it.

00:08:02:13 - 00:08:25:00
William Vanderbloemen
Works like this. All right. Stupidest job in the world to quit your job and try and start a new business. But off we went. Now, 15 years later, we've had more good fortune than I ever could have deserved. And I've got a team that's smarter than I am, and we've gotten to help a lot of people. It's grown past helping churches to helping schools, nonprofits and then values based businesses.

00:08:25:00 - 00:08:31:02
William Vanderbloemen
But as a long story, sorry, I'm a I'm a recovering preacher. I ramble.

00:08:31:04 - 00:08:56:14
Kevin Eikenberry
So you did some research in so you've been doing this for 15 years. 12 years at the time. Yeah. And you had some time during COVID and decided to do some research around like we're trying to find this great talent for folks and like, how do we how can we figure out who the what is it that makes those people the best folks you call the unicorns?

00:08:56:18 - 00:09:05:08
Kevin Eikenberry
So like, tell us about how you did this research. Yeah, that got us to this to this idea. And to this book.

00:09:05:10 - 00:09:23:19
William Vanderbloemen
Well, you're just spot on, Kevin. I mean, like, we get paid by companies to go find their next unicorn. Go find the mythical, wonderful candidate that will be able to do it all. That's what. That's why people hire us, Right? And we've gotten pretty good at spotting them. But every now and then, I've missed one. You know, I'd underestimate it.

00:09:23:19 - 00:09:47:15
William Vanderbloemen
Somebody in an interview and then other times, I don't know if you ever have this happen, but within 5 minutes meeting somebody, you're like, This person's amazing. This one's different. I should hire them. And that's not necessarily the right. So. So how do you figure out what is it that that unique chemistry when people grab you within 5 minutes and what is it that you can look for so that you don't miss somebody who might fly under the radar?

00:09:47:17 - 00:10:15:12
William Vanderbloemen
These are the questions in my mind, and I've never had time to answer them. Pandemic shuts down all of our clients. All of them. Our business lesson I learned since I don't have a business degree, if all of your clients close indefinitely, your calendar and your PNL will change that year. So. So fortunately, the panel we were able to work out, but but the calendar, I was able to sit back and say, well, let's let's talk about this.

00:10:15:12 - 00:10:35:08
William Vanderbloemen
Let's study. So we realize in a in a search, there are hundreds, if not thousands of people that might come under consideration. But when you get to the bottom of the funnel, the very best of the best, the last eight or ten, and they've been through several virtual interviews already, then we get on a plane and we go sit down with them for a long face to face interview.

00:10:35:10 - 00:11:04:07
William Vanderbloemen
And we keep pretty meticulous notes. So these are the best of the best. And during the pandemic, we realized we've now done 30,000 of those face to face interviews. And we have all of the data on what they interviewed, like, how they behaved, how their careers gone and that sort of thing. So could we figure out if these are the unicorns, so we figure out the best of those and we found them, and then we said, you know, do they have anything in common so we can learn how to spot a unicorn?

00:11:04:09 - 00:11:45:13
William Vanderbloemen
Cool thing is the research came back super clear and super surprising. Surprising on two fronts. One, it was not the list I thought it'd be. I thought it would be the smartest people, the best educated people, all the best looking people, whatever the, you know, quarterback in the head, cheerleader, that sort of thing. No, it was habits, as you mentioned, in the front of the show, habits that these people seem to bend toward almost innately, sometimes frenetically, and their habits that were really common among unicorns and completely uncommon among most everybody else on the planet.

00:11:45:15 - 00:12:14:01
William Vanderbloemen
And and then the second surprise in the research was these habits are actually teachable, coachable, learnable. So I went off on a selfish project to figure out how to spot unicorns faster or not missing any that go by. So I could be a better search guy. What I found was here's a roadmap that I need to share with people so they can stand out in the crowd and they can become one of those people that in 5 minutes people are like this one special.

00:12:14:03 - 00:12:27:13
William Vanderbloemen
And that's why we wrote a book. We didn't write a book to make money, that's for sure. But we felt like this is a resource that could help people because given it's noisier than ever out there right now, it's hard to stand out.

00:12:27:15 - 00:12:43:00
Kevin Eikenberry
So we're talking with William Vander Blumenthal, the author of the book Be The Unicorn 12 Data Driven Habits that Separate the Best Leaders from the Rest. What I'm going to do, William, is there's no way that in the time that we have left that we can talk about all 12 of these habits. What I'm going to do is I'm going to read them really quickly.

00:12:43:00 - 00:12:52:04
Kevin Eikenberry
Then I'm going to ask you two or three questions and then I'm going to pick a couple for us to chat about. How about that? We to have the chance to talk about this ahead of time. So I'm just giving you a little head's up where I'm headed.

00:12:52:07 - 00:12:52:23
William Vanderbloemen
that's all good.

00:12:53:01 - 00:13:22:15
Kevin Eikenberry
So here are the 12 and I'm just going to say them all to you relatively quickly. If you're listening to this, you can stop at any point to write them down if you want to, but you should also just go copy by copy the book. Here are the 12. The Unicorns are the fast, the authentic, the agile, the solver they anticipate are the prepared, the self-aware, the curious, the connected, the likable, the productive and the purpose driven.

00:13:22:15 - 00:13:46:15
Kevin Eikenberry
That's the 12 that we promised you at the front end of this situation. So now, both from your research and from your observation, I know that you've identified one that you think is the most important of the 12. We're going to get. We're going to get back to the fact that they're learnable and teachable and coachable and all that, but which one is the most important?

00:13:46:17 - 00:14:00:06
William Vanderbloemen
Yeah, well, two answers. One, it depends on what job you're doing. And two, if everything else is equal and you don't have a job, I'd say self-awareness. So.

00:14:00:11 - 00:14:08:00
Kevin Eikenberry
So from your perspective, what does self-awareness mean? And then let's dive into that, the two of us, for a sec.

00:14:08:02 - 00:14:17:12
William Vanderbloemen
Yeah, I don't I don't know your history well enough, Kevin. If the podcast is the podcast that you're doing, the first time you heard your voice recorded.

00:14:17:14 - 00:14:19:18
Kevin Eikenberry
No, no, no, no. Okay.

00:14:19:20 - 00:14:25:12
William Vanderbloemen
Okay. Well, do you remember the first time you heard your voice recorded and you're like, That is like how I smelled.

00:14:25:12 - 00:14:29:16
Kevin Eikenberry
50 years ago. But yes, of course it's not. It's not the way it sounds in our ears for sure.

00:14:29:16 - 00:14:55:14
William Vanderbloemen
No, that's not me. That's some of it. Get a new microphone. Right. That's self awareness. Like, I don't know, a simpler way to put it, how we see ourselves is fundamentally flawed because we're we don't we can't even see ourselves. We're seeing out our own eyes. Our best chance is a reflection, right? So what we found was so we identified all the unicorns and then we said, okay, unicorns, will you let us survey you?

00:14:55:19 - 00:15:22:08
William Vanderbloemen
Yes, we will. So we did. We found that we asked them to force rank, like, what's your top habit of these 12? What are you best at the the least popular number one gift or the least common among unicorns is self-awareness. Okay. Now, I think part of the reason it's the least common is because they are unicorns and they know they really need to learn themselves and don't know.

00:15:22:10 - 00:15:22:17
William Vanderbloemen
I think.

00:15:22:17 - 00:15:32:11
Kevin Eikenberry
That's right. Like the research says that 90% of 90% of the population say they are self aware, but like most aren't. so. So it's interesting about.

00:15:32:13 - 00:15:47:01
William Vanderbloemen
That but is spot on. We surveyed a quarter million people after serving the unicorns. 93% of them said they were above average at self awareness. Like, I don't have a math degree, but I don't think that adds up.

00:15:47:03 - 00:16:12:19
Kevin Eikenberry
Well, you know, like 80% of American men think they're above average drivers, too, which takes us back to the whole self-awareness thing as well. So so I think that fact alone is super interesting because among this self-selected group, it was the least selected item. And yet in the general population, your data and I've seen other research, 90 plus percent of people think they're above average of being self aware.

00:16:12:21 - 00:16:13:05
William Vanderbloemen
Yeah.

00:16:13:10 - 00:16:19:04
Kevin Eikenberry
And so that that discrepancy alone like sort of Mike drops this whole show I suppose some.

00:16:19:08 - 00:16:28:17
William Vanderbloemen
But I have a religion and philosophy degree behind me and I never thought would come in handy in business and if you're going to go in business, I would not suggest majoring. start.

00:16:28:17 - 00:16:29:00
Kevin Eikenberry
There.

00:16:29:06 - 00:16:53:14
William Vanderbloemen
No, no, no, I that's a different podcast. But, you know, Socrates, maybe the maybe the father of of Western philosophical thought didn't write much down. There's a lot of debate about what he actually taught and didn't teach. The one thing people don't debate is his cornerstone. Teaching was one sentence. No yourself. Yep. People don't want to do that.

00:16:53:14 - 00:17:00:17
William Vanderbloemen
They don't like you ever do a 360 at work. How fun is that? I don't want to hear that. Right. But and.

00:17:00:17 - 00:17:07:17
Kevin Eikenberry
Yet I could argue and in fact, I will be on a webinar tomorrow arguing that that's the single best place to start if.

00:17:07:19 - 00:17:26:06
William Vanderbloemen
Well, we actually built a software tool like a unicorn index people can take and they can take it as a team in a 360 fashion so they can learn, I think I'm good at these three. My colleagues and my boss think I'm better at these three, so it gives you a path of development. But most people don't want to take that time.

00:17:26:10 - 00:17:50:05
William Vanderbloemen
You know, as in my previous life as a pastor, I'd hear these scripture verses and they mean one thing to me. And now I'm like, maybe there's even more. Like Jesus was talking to people at one point said, Look, don't don't worry about the splinter in your brothers. I get the log out of your own first. And I thought this was like, Judge, not lest you be judged or you don't know what hard time another person is going through or something like that.

00:17:50:07 - 00:18:12:18
William Vanderbloemen
I wonder if there's not an additional layer here now that says, hey, until you, William, until you get to know your own issues, you will not be able to help others. You're just not going to be able to. So if if I could have all things equal, you don't have a job and it's not job specific. I would say self-awareness is the one I would work on and it's the easiest one to start with.

00:18:12:18 - 00:18:33:02
William Vanderbloemen
You can go take our index or you can take a disk inventory or an angiogram. Just get is the best age ever to get to know yourself. And it might be the thing that leads to the most improvement. My favorite one is it's called the Fast and the book. It really probably should be called The Responsive. The ones who get back to people quickly.

00:18:33:04 - 00:18:36:04
William Vanderbloemen
That to me is the easiest upgrade in.

00:18:36:04 - 00:18:46:05
Kevin Eikenberry
Your life, by the way. It's very clear it's your favorite. If you read the book like it's pretty clear that it's your favorite. Just saying that did not surprise. So ask the responsive.

00:18:46:07 - 00:19:01:05
William Vanderbloemen
I I it's just so freaking easy if you just get back to people, you will separate yourself from the crowd. Salespeople don't follow up on leads. People on eHarmony don't follow up on. I would like to meet you like.

00:19:01:07 - 00:19:03:18
Kevin Eikenberry
Like that's why you're here.

00:19:03:20 - 00:19:18:04
William Vanderbloemen
That's right. Lonely people on a website don't get back to each other like we are horrible at this. And if you just flip the switch to say, I'm going to get right back to people, first chance I can, you will stand out in the crowd and you can work on your self-awareness too.

00:19:18:06 - 00:19:36:20
Kevin Eikenberry
There's there's another one on the list. And again, I read the list. Everybody very, very quickly. There's nothing in the list that I believe is connected to the fast. And so draw the connective tissue for us between the fast or, as you now said, maybe it should have been the responsive and the productive.

00:19:36:22 - 00:20:09:12
William Vanderbloemen
Yeah. Yeah. Well, the ability to have bias for action is very uncommon among people. Most people put things off like the old again, the religion in philosophy degree, the old Latin word. That means tomorrow is literally the word. Cristina. So when you put it off for tomorrow, you procrastinate. This is as old as we are. And and most people do that, you know, here's the connective tissue.

00:20:09:12 - 00:20:39:10
William Vanderbloemen
I'm 27 years old. I'm a young pastor at this church in Alabama. And they brought me in while they were in the middle of relocating. So they didn't have a venue. We had to find places to be. We outgrew the space in our building one to be ready for a year. I needed to find a new spot. I'm riding around with a friend of mine who used to be on the board and had left the church and I was trying to woo him back and we drove around the launch, drove me back over to the office, and he said, You know, there's a YMCA right across the street from our property that we're building on,

00:20:39:12 - 00:20:58:00
William Vanderbloemen
and I don't think they use it on Sundays. I said, Wow. He said, Yeah, maybe we can be there. I said, Cool. He said, I know the board chair. Like, great. So let me right here. Here's his number. Okay, cool. So we stand around and talk for about 10 minutes and he looks at me and says, Why haven't you called the board chair yet?

00:20:58:01 - 00:21:14:15
William Vanderbloemen
And I said, Well, I'm sitting here talking to you. I thought he said, No, no, no, no, no. You had called me because you've already put it off the first chance to get something done is always the best chance to get something done that might be turning left in a heavy traffic. The first chance you get is the one.

00:21:14:20 - 00:21:37:23
William Vanderbloemen
But but we as people, our research shows we're prone to put things off. We're prone to hit the snooze button When what in the world does 7 minutes of sleep do for me except throw off whatever REM cycle I had, like just get it done. And the people that have that bent for action are the ones that are dumb don't ever get fired.

00:21:38:01 - 00:21:54:11
William Vanderbloemen
Like, who do you ask if you want something to get done? The busiest person, you know, because they've figured out I'm going to be productive and it's not hard. It's just a matter of actually following through with developing a habit.

00:21:54:13 - 00:22:12:01
Kevin Eikenberry
And that's why I one of the things I love about the book and about the research is that you frame them as habits and we could talk about them as skills. There are skills inside of each of these habits and it becomes it's a skill, as you've already alluded to. It's learnable and it's coachable and we can build them.

00:22:12:03 - 00:22:32:21
Kevin Eikenberry
And so I love that that you frame them though, as habits because ultimately it doesn't matter if we have the skill. It only is if we do it right. And that's what I love about it. I want to talk a little bit about another. I thought about a couple that perhaps like if no one that's listening would be surprised that being connected would be on this list.

00:22:33:02 - 00:22:55:12
Kevin Eikenberry
No one on this would be surprised to hear that they're solvers. Right. But what people might be surprised is when you hear this idea of being the anticipate or what do you mean by that? Because I'm not sure people will think about this one as a habit, which is why I'd like you to unpack this one just.

00:22:55:14 - 00:23:13:07
William Vanderbloemen
Yeah. Okay. Well, each of the each of the habits are and are a chapter in the book. And each chapter has a here's a case study in an anticipatory. Here's what we learned from the unicorns, and here's how you can apply this to your life. So you're not going to read this book and say, William's going to cure cancer.

00:23:13:09 - 00:23:44:07
William Vanderbloemen
Now, that's not the point of the book. It's simple steps toward becoming a unicorn, right? And the anticipatory was a really interesting one because, well, most people don't think ahead, and it's just not that hard to think one or two steps ahead. You talked to Tiger Woods about how he's going to hit his drive on the tee. He says, well, where's the pin or the the greens three full shots away.

00:23:44:07 - 00:24:03:03
William Vanderbloemen
Why do you care where the pin is? That's going to affect where my third shot comes in from. In my second shot takes off from in my first shot lands. So where's the pin? Like, that's the difference. It is just a habit of saying what you don't have to see five years into the future to be ahead of the crowd, you only have to see a half step ahead.

00:24:03:04 - 00:24:22:18
William Vanderbloemen
There's a there's a knot to go all, you know, scripture. But this whole project has made me rethink a lot of the things that I've learned over the years. There's a word in the in the Hebrew scriptures where King David says, your word is a lamp unto my feet, a light under my path. And I used to think that meant like xenon headlights that could see a mile down the road.

00:24:22:21 - 00:24:33:04
William Vanderbloemen
You wouldn't talk about that at all. You're talking about tiny little lanterns that people would tie on their shoes and it gave them enough light for the next step.

00:24:33:06 - 00:24:34:14
Kevin Eikenberry
That's all. And then the next step.

00:24:34:20 - 00:24:56:17
William Vanderbloemen
And boy, did we learn that during the pandemic. How did you stay ahead in business? You didn't have to see how this is going to end. You had to stay half a step ahead and people can learn to do that. It's just a shift in thinking. And when you get that shift and you start to think, well, now how do I anticipate, man, then you're thinking differently.

00:24:56:17 - 00:25:22:14
William Vanderbloemen
And we don't think that way. We we are like, you know, sheep that just look down at the next tuft, a grass or maybe a sheep of the opposite gender. That's about all they're interested in. And they end up walking off cliffs. You know, we, we as a people and we've gotten lazier as time has gone on. Back in the ancient times, Greek and Latin word order in a sentence didn't matter at all because every word had an ending that told you exactly what it was doing.

00:25:22:18 - 00:25:43:18
William Vanderbloemen
And the verb for the sentence didn't come to the end of the sentence. So you had to listen to the entire sentence before you knew what was going on. You had to think. I got into dissipate, not just act on the one thing that I just heard. And I think in an age of more divided attention than ever, this one is one that will separate people.

00:25:43:20 - 00:25:49:23
William Vanderbloemen
You know, when you get a check, 15 social media platforms to check your messages, like think ahead a little bit.

00:25:50:04 - 00:25:55:01
Kevin Eikenberry
We could have a whole conversation about that. Like, don't do that. But that's a whole different thing.

00:25:55:01 - 00:25:56:14
William Vanderbloemen
Yeah, yeah.

00:25:56:16 - 00:26:16:15
Kevin Eikenberry
So I can't have you on here with all this experience and search and all the experience with interviewing, because I'm sure a lot of people are now saying, okay, so how do I you've now given us a roadmap and not only to think about ourselves, but to think about who I'm going to add to my team. Yeah, So this could be a whole conversation.

00:26:16:15 - 00:26:43:04
Kevin Eikenberry
I know. And I would be remiss to not ask you to give us a couple ideas about how to how to do a better job of finding these or sussing these people out from your list. So give us a couple or three things that people can take home in this area, because I think it's it's it's important that we talk about it because this is your life's work.

00:26:43:06 - 00:27:08:03
William Vanderbloemen
Yeah, well, I'll tell you what I'm learning from my own mistakes as a younger leader and interviewer. All right. I had a propensity early on just to hire talent. That's not helpful. Just talent is not helpful. I had a propensity early on to hire people I liked, and I thought that meant they were great. Well, actually, as a young leader, it turns out I liked them because they were like me.

00:27:08:07 - 00:27:29:04
William Vanderbloemen
And I like me. We end up with a room full of me, so maybe we're coming full circle to your first question about habits, the most important one before you ever interview somebody new to come into your organization, do you have a full grasp on your organization? Are you are you clear in your self-awareness on what we need on the team?

00:27:29:04 - 00:27:54:18
William Vanderbloemen
Like, finally, I was old enough when I started this 15 years ago to say I need some really high detail people around me, or were never it. This book would not have been possible had I not known that because we wouldn't have had people that would have kept records. Right. Took me a long time to learn that. And then when I'm interviewing now, when we were smaller and, you know, it was eight, ten people we hired around our cultural values, if you matched these, that's fine.

00:27:54:20 - 00:28:10:16
William Vanderbloemen
Now that we're bigger, I have to learn that I'm interviewing for a marketing position or sales position that requires strength in a certain set of habits more than maybe a chief compliance officer or, you know, bookkeeper or that sort of thing.

00:28:10:16 - 00:28:13:19
Kevin Eikenberry
So you still matter. But I have to think beyond just the values.

00:28:13:21 - 00:28:37:14
William Vanderbloemen
That's right. I've got to think about how are you going to fit the. So I would say the beginning is self-awareness. You know what? What are you meeting? Where do you guys as a team flourish the best? Who are your five best hires and why were they great? Go look for that again. You know, it's it's all if you if you are clear on your cultural values, you can use those.

00:28:37:16 - 00:29:10:03
William Vanderbloemen
We wrote a whole book on that. But I would say being self-aware and not being blinded by talent would be my to our two best tips. And then, you know, Kevin, when people do this, I don't do searches anymore. I write books and speak and that sort of thing. We've got far more talented people doing the searches, but every now and then when we're doing one for an old client or a really complex deal or I have to be involved, I spend my time interviewing candidates by saying, Hey, don't bother, tell me your life story.

00:29:10:03 - 00:29:29:06
William Vanderbloemen
I've already heard that. Like, what questions can I answer for you about this job? That may be the best interview question I've ever stumbled on because people see it as disarming and interviewing is high anxiety. So any time you can lower anxiety, that's a huge win. They say.

00:29:29:06 - 00:29:34:14
Kevin Eikenberry
It again. So people that we're yeah, we're doing something else like underline it for people. Say it again.

00:29:34:16 - 00:29:54:13
William Vanderbloemen
Yeah, sure. Kevin, you're interviewing with us. You've already given us your life story like we're this is your third interview. Let's not waste time with that. How about the best way we could use the time today is for you to ask me questions about this job or working at this company. How can I help you? What can I answer?

00:29:54:15 - 00:29:59:08
William Vanderbloemen
And just hearing you're here, if they're not prepared, you're here.

00:29:59:08 - 00:30:01:12
Kevin Eikenberry
If they're here, if they're not curious.

00:30:01:14 - 00:30:30:00
William Vanderbloemen
You're here. If they're not connected, you'll hear. If they don't know themself right. You know, there's a lot of talk about work life balance and not being a toxic and abusive boss. And I'm all for everybody being healthy. But there are some jobs that require immediate responsiveness, like if you are an ambulance driver and the call comes in, you don't get to say, but I'm having dinner with my wife and I'm trying to protect my work life balance.

00:30:30:02 - 00:30:47:20
William Vanderbloemen
No, you know, so like, figure out what's essential to the job and see if they're asking the questions that will let you say they're going to be good at this. So I'd see what questions are inside people and I'd make sure you know yourself well enough to know, is this going to fit or not?

00:30:47:22 - 00:31:05:11
Kevin Eikenberry
I love that. So a couple of things before we finish, William. And one of them is I want to shift gears. Really. We started talking about you. We're going to kind of end talking about you. And so here's my next question. What do you do for fun?

00:31:05:13 - 00:31:27:14
William Vanderbloemen
Yeah, well, that's changed over the years. We have seven kids. I grew up playing golf. I played with one of my four grandparents at least once a week and played a lot of tournament golf, never world class, but pretty good. I functionally quit when we started the business because it's been growing every year and up into the right seven kids, you know.

00:31:27:16 - 00:31:39:13
William Vanderbloemen
So I'm starting to have some time to do that. And that's led my wife, who plays tennis, to say, I'll learn golf if you'll learn tennis. So now I'm painfully trying to learn a very difficult sport. I'm not any good at it at all.

00:31:39:15 - 00:31:42:14
Kevin Eikenberry
You couldn't just have her go pickleball. Maybe a little.

00:31:42:16 - 00:31:49:18
William Vanderbloemen
That's that's the third option. And we both agreed where neither one of us are going to try to get good at that. We're just going to go have fun with it.

00:31:49:20 - 00:32:06:04
Kevin Eikenberry
All right. There you go. And the other thing that I normally that I like to ask everybody that I've actually in my entire life, this is something that I've asked people. And when I started doing this podcast, 400 and some odd episodes ago, I thought it'd be a good thing to ask people here. So I'm going to ask you, you didn't know I'm going to ask this.

00:32:06:04 - 00:32:13:03
Kevin Eikenberry
So the question is, what are you reading or what's something you've read recently?

00:32:13:05 - 00:32:39:02
William Vanderbloemen
You know, I love history and biographies. I don't think it's hard to see. And usually I should say I read biographies of people who've been dead for a while just to give it a little time. As much as you'd like to see the Britney book on my bookshelf, it's not there. So and what is and neither is the Elon Musk biography, even though Walter Isaacson is my favorite biographer of all time.

00:32:39:04 - 00:33:03:20
William Vanderbloemen
So actually, the most recent read I finished was his Einstein biography, which was fascinating. I just if you learn enough history, you can start to see the future. It's pretty cyclical. So I'm kind of a history biography geek. We have a book challenge at home every year to read 35 books, and then I go and pick a 1200 page James Michener or Walter Isaacson.

00:33:03:20 - 00:33:07:17
William Vanderbloemen
And I'm I'm the last place I don't read a lot, but.

00:33:07:19 - 00:33:20:21
Kevin Eikenberry
Well, maybe you should go on pages and not books. There you see. There you go. I've read all the missionary, all that, so I don't need to read any more those anymore. There was a long time. I think I've read every single one. The easier ones are the short with like Kent State, you know. Not so long. Yeah.

00:33:20:21 - 00:33:22:07
Kevin Eikenberry
That state as opposed to Hawaii.

00:33:22:07 - 00:33:25:08
William Vanderbloemen
Centennial or. Yeah, well, the Covenant.

00:33:25:09 - 00:33:26:06
Kevin Eikenberry
The Covenant.

00:33:26:08 - 00:33:34:17
William Vanderbloemen
Pretty amazing. I've read that before. I made our first trip to South Africa and yeah, so I'm a history biography nerd.

00:33:34:19 - 00:33:43:10
Kevin Eikenberry
So the question you probably most wanted me to ask from the beginning is where can people learn more? Where do you want to point people? How can they get a copy of this fabulous book? Be the Corn?

00:33:43:15 - 00:33:44:09
William Vanderbloemen
Well, the one stop.

00:33:44:09 - 00:33:47:17
Kevin Eikenberry
Data driven habits separated the best leaders from the rest.

00:33:47:21 - 00:34:17:13
William Vanderbloemen
Of Thanksgiving. The best one stop shop is the Unicorn book dot com, the unicorn book dot com that's got you can find the personality assessment, you can find bonus material. You can find the book where to order and links for everything. The easier way to find the book is to go to Amazon and spell Vander Blume and how ever you would like to because my name is so messed up, it will source right back to my author page and you'll see it right at the top.

00:34:17:14 - 00:34:30:09
William Vanderbloemen
Same with Google. If you want to find our website there. Like 4000 free resources there just Vander Blue and however you want to spell it, it's Vanderbloemen Mint.com. You'll get there and hopefully you'll find some things that can help you out.

00:34:30:11 - 00:34:58:04
Kevin Eikenberry
So before we go, everyone, I have a question that I ask all of you as listeners or viewers every single week. And if you've watched before, listen for you know, here it is. Now, what what action are you going to take? Like What's the point if you don't do something with what you learned? And maybe you've got an idea about how to be better prepared for the next time you're interviewing or being interviewed, or perhaps one of the various ideas that we talked about around one of these habits is the place that you are led to start.

00:34:58:04 - 00:35:16:13
Kevin Eikenberry
Perhaps it's to think about how you can be working to be more self aware, being more curious, being more of an anticipatory, or perhaps it just might be getting a copy of this book, whatever it is. The reality is that unless you take some action from this, it will have been a very little real value to you when it's all said and done.

00:35:16:13 - 00:35:22:00
Kevin Eikenberry
William, thank you so much for being here. It is a pleasure to have you. Thanks again so much for being here.

00:35:22:02 - 00:35:25:04
William Vanderbloemen
Thanks, Kevin. Appreciate it. And thanks for having me on.

00:35:25:06 - 00:35:44:17
Kevin Eikenberry
So, everybody, that's the end of this week's episode. You know, we'll be back. So you should be back if you're a subscriber. It will show up in your feed. If you're not, this is your chance to subscribe. If you are a subscriber and like what you get here, this is your chance to tell someone else to. Join us next week for the next episode of the Remarkable Leadership Podcast.

Meet William

William's Story: William Vanderbloemen is the author of Be the Unicorn: 12 data-driven habits that Separate The Best Leaders From the Rest. He has been leading the Vanderbloemen Search Group for 15 years, where they are regularly retained to identify the best talent for teams, manage succession planning, and consult on all issues regarding teams. This year, Vanderbloemen will complete their 3,000th executive search. Prior to founding Vanderbloemen Search Group, William studied executive search under a mentor with 25+ years of executive search at the highest level. His learning taught him the very best corporate practices, including the search strategies used by the internationally known firm Russell Reynolds. Prior to that, William served as a Senior Pastor at one of the largest Presbyterian Churches in the United States.

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How to Play for Greatness with Skip Bowman
Personal Leadership Development, Professional Development

How to Play for Greatness with Skip Bowman

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Psychological safety is the foundation for effective leadership and team collaboration. Skip Bowman shares with Kevin the concept of "safe to great," which is based on creating psychological safety to enable individuals and teams to move from the comfort zone to the learning zone and ultimately to the growth zone. Skip emphasizes the importance of overcoming the instinct to control and the bias towards charismatic, dominant leadership, highlighting the need for leaders with humility and determination. He also addresses the challenges of virtual leadership and the need for effective communication and trust-building in remote teams.

Listen For

00:00 Introduction to the topic of the psychology of leadership, including concepts like psychological safety and growth mindset.
00:41 Announcement about future episodes and interaction opportunities on social channels.
01:25 Introduction of the episode's sponsor and the guest, Skip Bowman.
02:10 Brief biography of Skip Bowman, covering his background and expertise.
02:42 Official welcoming of Skip Bowman to the show.
03:17 Discussion about Skip Bowman's journey and the idea behind his book "Safe to Great."
04:04 Skip Bowman shares his early experiences as a diving instructor and how it influenced his understanding of leadership.
06:05 Exploration of the emotional connection in leadership and its importance.
07:15 Discussion on the concept of psychological safety in leadership.
11:32 Dive into the 'bright side' and 'dark side' of leadership as discussed in Bowman's book.
13:28 Examination of why leaders lean towards control and its evolutionary background.
16:25 Discussion on the growth mindset principle and its counterintuitive nature.
19:37 Exploration of the alternative to control-oriented leadership: the commitment method.
22:53 Insights on where leaders should start in shifting their mindset.
26:14 Discussion on the challenges of leadership in a post-COVID, remote work environment.
29:05 Personal insights from Skip Bowman on his hobbies and interests.
30:43 Book recommendations and further reading.
31:39 Information on where to find more about Skip Bowman's work.
33:21 Final thoughts and the closing of the podcast.

View Full Transcript

00:00:08:09 - 00:00:41:15
Kevin Eikenberry
Today we're talking about the psychology of leadership, of concepts that have gained steam like psychological safety and a growth mindset. But we're also talking about and in the trenches reality of leading for control and compliance or leading for commitment. We're talking about all this as a way to help us understand ourselves better and lead better. Welcome to another episode of the Remarkable Leadership Podcast, where we are helping leaders like you grow personally and professionally to lead more effectively and make a bigger difference for their teams, organizations and the world.

00:00:41:17 - 00:01:02:21
Kevin Eikenberry
If you're listening to this podcast in the future, you could join us live on your favorite social channel. You can get all of access to those future episodes, links to when they're going to happen, the calendar, when they're going to happen, so that you can interact with us and and see this content sooner by joining your Facebook or LinkedIn groups.

00:01:02:21 - 00:01:25:21
Kevin Eikenberry
Just two of the social channels that we happen to operate these live casts on. You can go to our to join our Facebook group by going to remarkable podcast dot com slash Facebook or go to remarkable podcast dot com slash linked and get you all the details get you up to date and I hope that you'll do that and join the hundreds of people that are on those two groups.

00:01:25:23 - 00:01:50:17
Kevin Eikenberry
Today's episode is brought to you by our remarkable masterclasses pick from 13 important life and leadership skills to help you become more effective, productive and confident while overcoming some of the leader's toughest challenges. Learn more and sign up at Remarkable Masterclass dot com. Our guest today is Skip Bowman. You probably know that you've read something that told you that I'm going to bring him in and then I'm going to introduce him.

00:01:50:17 - 00:02:10:10
Kevin Eikenberry
There he is. Let me introduce Skip to you and we're going to dive in. Skip Bowman is an author, consultant, keynote speaker, focusing on how to transform organizations to the green economy with a growth mindset and psychological safety. He grew up in Perth, Australia, has spent most of the last 25 years working in Switzerland, England, France and Denmark.

00:02:10:12 - 00:02:42:21
Kevin Eikenberry
After studying finance in Australia, he obtained his M.A. in Psychology and Languages in Copenhagen. He also has a master's in organizational psychology and completed additional training in cross country music, cross-cultural management, group dynamics, Coaching and Cultural Change. His book, Safe to Great, which, if you're watching him holding up safe too Great. The New Psychology of Leadership outlines his new psychology for leadership and an integrated process for implementing a growth mindset based on psychological safety and organizations.

00:02:42:23 - 00:02:49:00
Kevin Eikenberry
And he is our guest, and I'm glad he's here. Skip, welcome.

00:02:49:02 - 00:02:57:04
Skip Bowman
Great to be here. Kevin. I'm glad to you're happy that I'm here. We had a couple of technical difficulties, but I'm so glad we sorted it out. Thank you so much for being here tonight.

00:02:57:04 - 00:03:17:21
Kevin Eikenberry
And we've got a couple of folks from my team who are here. I'm going to put their names on the screen, but if you're here live, please let us know. Say hello. And as we're going to long have you have a question to ask us. So so Skip, I want to dive in and I want to find out like sort of tell us about your journey.

00:03:17:21 - 00:03:33:13
Kevin Eikenberry
In short, really, how did you end up getting to this idea? And we'll talk more about what it means in a minute. How do you how did you get to this place called Safe to great. Like, tell us the jury that leads you from Perth to Europe to doing this kind of work.

00:03:33:15 - 00:03:35:22
Skip Bowman
Yes, in one minute or less.

00:03:36:00 - 00:03:37:06
Kevin Eikenberry
Exactly.

00:03:37:08 - 00:04:04:04
Skip Bowman
Yeah. I mean, Australian I love diving, underwater diving, that is as a young kid. And I became a diving instructor in the early, late eighties, early nineties and I discovered that being a great diver didn't mean anything if you're trying to teach people to dive. So I discovered that sort of being a great instructor was about making people feel confident and competent.

00:04:04:06 - 00:04:22:05
Skip Bowman
And to do that, it was fundamentally some sort of magical sort of connection that you create between people. And this is my first experience. When I grew up at school and university, I never really thought about it, but I suddenly got that job and I loved it. I love teaching and I love instructing. I suddenly realized that there was something special.

00:04:22:05 - 00:04:51:05
Skip Bowman
If you made that connection, you could do something great. If you didn't make that connection, it was really, really difficult. And it went on to later in life where I learned languages, learned Danish and French, moved to different cultures, studied psychology, etc. So many of those successes are to do with the relationships that we have. And that has really driven why I've got a book in which you've had very happy to see people appreciate that which is growth mindset from a relational perspective.

00:04:51:05 - 00:05:08:15
Skip Bowman
How do we help? How do we grow, but how do we help others grow? So it started off as diving, but it's led on to my whole professional career. 25 years in leadership and organizational development, and I've seen that so often ignored at your peril. And when it's there, we get this multiplier effect. When the relationship arrived, we can grow.

00:05:08:18 - 00:05:12:06
Skip Bowman
And so that's what the book is dedicated to.

00:05:12:08 - 00:05:36:16
Kevin Eikenberry
So and that's and a story everybody, when you get your copy, which I hope that you will do, there's a longer story about this connection to diving that Skip tells in the beginning of the book. I love that you start there those because the connection between being an instructor, a teacher, whatever word you want to use there, and being a leader, they're connected and they're connected.

00:05:36:18 - 00:05:56:08
Kevin Eikenberry
They're connected because as leaders we are coaches and we are often teaching people things for sure. But I think they're connected and I think that we are of similar mind here that they're connected in in deeper ways than that. Like some instructors say, we're going to lecture and it's pretty much one way and some leaders kind of do the same.

00:05:56:11 - 00:06:05:21
Kevin Eikenberry
And we're going to head to all of that in a second. But do you have anything else you want to say about the connection between leading and teaching? I'm just curious.

00:06:05:23 - 00:06:32:21
Skip Bowman
I think there's an emotional connection. I mean, you're standing on the edge of a boat and you've got all this dark water in front of you and you're about to roll into shark infested waters. There's a certain look you have in each other's eyes. There's a certain look grabbing onto each other's shoulders before you know it. And they're wonderful metaphors for what is called in another great book, which is called Care Today, that when we show that we care about somebody, it creates a foundation for doing something difficult.

00:06:32:21 - 00:06:52:04
Skip Bowman
Now, in that case, it was rolling off a boat into the water, but it could be at work trying something difficult, learning something new, taking a risk, all those kinds of things that if we know there's somebody behind us who's taking care of us, so who kind of, no matter what is going to continue to care and want us to learn and develop it, that that makes all the difference.

00:06:52:04 - 00:06:56:19
Skip Bowman
That's like that's the magic. That's the magic dust, right?

00:06:56:21 - 00:07:15:01
Kevin Eikenberry
So I hinted at it. If people are watching, they see it next to your name. Safe to great. What's the basis, what's underneath this this approach, this new psychology of leadership that we're going to talk about today that you call safe to great? What's the basis of that approach?

00:07:15:03 - 00:07:36:07
Skip Bowman
Well, essentially, if we want to put some theory on that idea about that connection, we're going to put psychological safety on it. That's the big term that I mean, Amundsen sort of helped start with. It's not the first pass, but certainly has made it extremely popular and super relevant. And so safety becomes a concept that can say, do something about this.

00:07:36:07 - 00:07:57:13
Skip Bowman
Once we create that, it's kind of like the foundation. And the reason is really simple is if you studied psychology of leadership and performance, what we know is that when people are operating what we might call an unsafe or a fear zone, they're not very successful. They might be able to do things that are quite dramatic and powerful, but it doesn't lead to real sort of growth and learning.

00:07:57:13 - 00:08:20:16
Skip Bowman
We tend to be using our survival instinct rather than using anything that's really clever, right? So unless we create that safety and to use lots of examples of people have done extraordinary things under great duress, now that could be, you know, in in accidents around aircraft or could be like even the terrible World Trade Tower events, these are similar events.

00:08:20:17 - 00:08:20:23
Skip Bowman
If we.

00:08:20:23 - 00:08:21:08
Kevin Eikenberry
Really.

00:08:21:08 - 00:08:47:18
Skip Bowman
Look into the detail, there are great stories about people, everyday people, but also leaders who step into extraordinary situations and create just enough level of safety that people are willing to do and to achieve extraordinary things. Because what happens is, instead of us being fearful, we have to step out of that and to be able to start thinking and using our resources, but most importantly, to collaborate.

00:08:47:19 - 00:09:06:14
Skip Bowman
That's where the gold is. You know, it's when we work together that amazing things happen, whether it's on a basketball team or whether it's in a fireman team or whatever, it's the same challenge. So it unlocks everything. If you look at a great book, is is about the culture, co-written by Dan Coyle, fabulous book, again, about the power.

00:09:06:14 - 00:09:25:14
Skip Bowman
When we belong to something, we have a common trajectory and we create safety within able to do magical things together. And his study of so many different high performance contexts shows that we always say, you need emotional intelligence. No, what we need is that sense of caring and that safety has to be in place when it's there.

00:09:25:16 - 00:09:48:03
Skip Bowman
We can really challenge hard. Now that's the logic of safe to go right now. Psychological safety by itself is not enough. We need something that stretches us right, both relationally and in terms of getting the job done the task and that's what Grossmont that's where Count Rex work, gives some insight into what that could look at. But that obviously that is a concept.

00:09:48:03 - 00:10:15:07
Skip Bowman
The counterweight developed in educational settings like learning at university. What I spent last seven years as being outside, how could we use our existing theory and empirical studies of of performance at work to be able to say something meaningful about what growth mindset really is in practice? So how do we create that stretch in terms of relationship, in terms of task, get these, you know, to lift this set not just above what we might call a comforts zone to lift us into a learning zone, but also lift us into a growth zone of some sort.

00:10:15:11 - 00:10:37:06
Skip Bowman
That's quite a remarkable thing. And great teams do it. You know, Dan Cole talks in the culture Code about the SEALs. They do. It doesn't great basketball teams do it. I think it's back to this idea that greatness is quite rare. There's a lot of ordinary is out there and there's an awful lot of crap, right. Not to mention some really toxic stuff as well.

00:10:37:06 - 00:10:57:12
Skip Bowman
But we're we're trying to be inspired by what really great teams and try to then break it down to a set of principles so you can sort of say we need more of this. But I think with the big difference in the my work is I also look at the dysfunctional stuff. We have to understand that part of the reason we don't succeed is there are things holding us back, right?

00:10:57:14 - 00:11:09:20
Skip Bowman
And that can be in us and it can be around us. And those things matter when we're starting to have that calculation about is there a growth mindset or not? So that's part of the learning that's put into that book.

00:11:09:22 - 00:11:31:23
Kevin Eikenberry
So in the book you just hinted a little bit scared when you said in the book, you call it the the bright side and the dark side. What's this? What this sits on? And this gets to, as I promised in the open, that we'd get a bit of an understanding about ourselves and how we can move forward. And so in the book you talk about Bright Side, Dark side.

00:11:32:01 - 00:11:58:05
Kevin Eikenberry
Today we're going to start with the dark side. So not just because I think it'll make more sense for our conversation, because one of the things that happens and and one of the things I loved about the book is that we use you and I use some very similar language when we when we work with leaders And you you you have a section about halfway through the book where you talk about the dark side.

00:11:58:07 - 00:12:33:07
Kevin Eikenberry
And one of the things you talk about is leading for control. And so we often talk about leading for compliance, but we're talking about exactly the same thing right? And so my question is, why do leaders, leaders lean into control? Like, why is that so prevalent and why? Because here's what I know and everyone and first of all, Skip, the people who are watching and listening are probably doing this less right where we're talking to people who are working hard to get better.

00:12:33:09 - 00:12:52:01
Kevin Eikenberry
And yet all of us have leaned here and all of us have had a leader that leaned here and said and we said, I don't want to do that necessarily. And yet we do. Why do we lean in to control what you're calling the dark side?

00:12:52:03 - 00:13:28:02
Skip Bowman
There's a there's an evolutionary factor, right? And we just wired for it and that's a pity. But it worked 40, 50,000 years ago. Our brain hasn't changed much since then. So in reality, most great leadership is overcoming natural instincts. And that's it. Because what worked to save you from the from the Sabertooth tiger isn't very effective to understand the complexities of a supply chain meltdown post-COVID.

00:13:28:04 - 00:13:53:10
Skip Bowman
There are two very, very different tasks and the kind of cognitive complexity, etc. that you need to solve the the latter is very, very different. So we have to sort of get over the fact that that instinctively we look up to control, particularly when faced by uncertainty and challenge. Right. We tend to say, let's find the hero, let's find as I say, I said elsewhere, let's find Bruce Willis.

00:13:53:10 - 00:14:23:06
Skip Bowman
Let's let's find his father. God is going to get us out of this stuff. Great respect to him is wonderful, I'm sure. But. But we want the hero, right? And that's how we approach this part of our evolutionary makeup. Now, we've got another factor, which is that in terms of the way organizations tend to make choices about who leads, who they choose for project leadership, who they choose for line leadership directors, etc., tends to be people exhibit behaviors that we call the alpha male position.

00:14:23:06 - 00:14:47:06
Skip Bowman
So charismatic, dominant, controlling, right? Because they seem like the right things. The hat that sets an enormous bias that we have in organizations. Because when you actually look and measure it, great leaders don't really look like that. So they're actually much more humble. They've got a determination, they've got other qualities. And and that's primarily to because, you know, I don't want somebody who can defend me against a saboteur.

00:14:47:06 - 00:15:10:00
Skip Bowman
Tiger actually trying to find somebody who can help me, you know, man is something like the inflation problem in North America or help us get off gas in in Europe, because that leads to the kind of conflicts we have today. So these are very complicated issues that require leaders of different with a different kind of greatness. And I think we often need to challenge it.

00:15:10:00 - 00:15:36:13
Skip Bowman
So there's the human bias, but there's an organizational bias towards what I call hippos, which I've got a badge wearing, you know, ladies that are controlling. So that'd be the main reason because we face uncertainty. We saw it recently, which is kind of amusing, you know, in the face of where we go with social media. Mark Zuckerberg and and Elon Musk, one to have a cage fight in Congress.

00:15:36:15 - 00:15:38:23
Kevin Eikenberry
Is going to happen. Now, I don't know like.

00:15:39:04 - 00:15:40:05
Skip Bowman
You hear the fantastic.

00:15:40:05 - 00:15:53:22
Kevin Eikenberry
Conversation on the 20th of November is not going to come this isn't going to come live on the podcast until the 24th of 2024 of January of 2024. So I don't know, but I haven't heard anything about it in a while. Is it off?

00:15:54:00 - 00:16:02:13
Skip Bowman
I don't know. But it's remarkable. It's because when when, when stock.

00:16:02:15 - 00:16:04:04
Kevin Eikenberry
So we like skip.

00:16:04:04 - 00:16:25:07
Skip Bowman
Addresses it's it's it's funny like that but that's a little bit how the world the world works in uncertainty and we're facing a lot of that right now. Right. It's you know if we're looking at the traditional understanding of business planning, the level of uncertainty means that most companies are not comfortable to plan longer than six months. Boy, boy, we've never seen anything like that.

00:16:25:07 - 00:16:48:01
Skip Bowman
Right. So that means that everyone is looking for something that looks more certain and the human characteristics we like to look for. And that's why the growth mindset principle in my book is fundamentally counterintuitive. It's in fact, you don't want Bruce Willis. You actually want somebody who looks quite different to that.

00:16:48:03 - 00:17:19:06
Kevin Eikenberry
Yeah, because what happens is and is that because we're looking for that certainty, then we look to someone who seems certain. Yes. Which takes us back to where we just were. So what are the what are the costs to us as organizations if we lean into or promote or search for that person leading from the place of control there?

00:17:19:07 - 00:17:43:16
Skip Bowman
The primary one is that when will we sort of a face, a leader who is overly coercive and dominant, etc., We tend to adopt a coping strategy or a resisting strategy. Right now, coping strategy tends to look like this. My boss is really aggressive and dominant, and after me. So what I do, I'm going to be nice to her, I'm going to be friendly, I'm going to do what they say.

00:17:43:18 - 00:18:02:03
Skip Bowman
But in principle, when I face uncertainty, I'm going to wait and see. I'm going to follow the rules. I'm going to be really cautious here. Right. And what we know from research into that, that's a really bad position. Just about any kind of business I'll get back there is that there is a slightly different alternative that but so that we hope for that.

00:18:02:05 - 00:18:21:16
Skip Bowman
The second position which is which is worse from an effectiveness point of view, is we resist. In other words, we start to yeah, we start to complain and bitch and whine and defensiveness. Yeah, we do all those things to try to get away with it, you know, to try to resist that, that unfairness that comes with it in various different ways.

00:18:21:18 - 00:18:47:00
Skip Bowman
The research is really simple that in shops around America, right, if you measure the level of pilfering, in other words, losing stock, you then correlate it to the level of toxicity of the leader. How controlling are they? And there's a correlation. So what we realize is the majority of people who steal in shops are the staff themselves, because they're trying to right the balance of feeling unjustly treated and that really matters.

00:18:47:02 - 00:19:07:22
Skip Bowman
That's just an example of it. So and so if we want to collaborate, if one do high quality, we want to innovate. I need people to not be scared about my boss. I need to be focusing their attention on solving the task. So what happens is controlling leaders. Everyone's only worried about what the leaders thinking, not what the customer is thinking or what they're thinking together.

00:19:08:00 - 00:19:37:08
Kevin Eikenberry
Yeah. And so the goal becomes satisfying the boss or keeping their being pain there as opposed to solving the real business problem or not really meeting the real opportunity. So I framed this conversation, skip around leaning towards control. So if we're not leaning that direction, what are we leaning toward? Like you, you've you've sort of helped us see that while it's natural and it's understandable, it's not very effective to always lean toward the control side.

00:19:37:13 - 00:19:41:05
Kevin Eikenberry
So what's the other alternative?

00:19:41:07 - 00:20:07:07
Skip Bowman
The alternative is what I call the commitment premium or the commitment method, right? And that's essentially based on a concept called autonomy, enhancing in the sense that we're trying to if I if I say to you, hey, what do you think, Kevin, as opposed to saying, Kevin, do this, what happens is I create the possibility of you saying, I like the bit where you ask me what I think.

00:20:07:09 - 00:20:31:13
Skip Bowman
And what we know from research is that that has a profound impact on on teams, on individual contributors, everything, because just small amounts of of, of autonomy, small amounts of choice means that I perform better. I think better. I relate to people better, I'm more resilient. I'm less likely to have stress. These things really matter. And they're relatively small choices.

00:20:31:13 - 00:20:59:19
Skip Bowman
But that small act of saying, What do you think, Kevin or Kevin, I see this really cool. Can we do more of it? Small change, but we're talking about a performance framing that's like 40 to 50%, right? It's it's really valuable. And that's the that's the thing which most people don't want to admit. I'm and if you look at the research done by loads and this is not research new it's been around for a really long time right This is not new right.

00:20:59:21 - 00:21:18:09
Skip Bowman
It's just become increasingly hard with the business models that we have today to be really effective with a control model. So commitments actually become increasingly necessary and increasingly important. But I'll as I'll get back to this, a small thing which I talk about in the book is our philosophy is we want to continue to manage 1 to 1 goals.

00:21:18:09 - 00:21:45:03
Skip Bowman
We want to manage individuals rather than thinking about how do we manage relationships between people. And that's that's a real shift in the safety model. And if you look again at the research, the latest that understand that for example, Pixar's you know at Catmull he understands his job is not is to lead the system he understands that really well and that's what turned around the fact that well created Pixar then turned around Walt Disney.

00:21:45:03 - 00:21:59:02
Skip Bowman
It's a fantastic story, but it's very clever stuff. He's not trying to lead it like a hero. He'd leads it in a fundamentally wrong way by creating a healthy system. Relationships that create the success that I get.

00:21:59:04 - 00:22:09:02
Kevin Eikenberry
Well, it's like, you know, you hire smart people, so then you need to unleash them. And if you bring in smart people, then why wouldn't you want to do that? Right? Ultimately, when it's all said and done.

00:22:09:04 - 00:22:15:12
Skip Bowman
Would you make them dumber with controlling leadership? That's the thing we know. So it's really curious. But anyway, good guy. I'm up for your question.

00:22:15:16 - 00:22:45:17
Kevin Eikenberry
No, no. So what's so people that are listening, watching are saying, I'm with you, Skip. I get it. I don't want I want to overcome nature and not necessarily from the place of control where where should people start? Like, obviously, we wanted to go buy a copy. Your book saved a great I'm talking to Skip Bowman, the author of Safe to Break the New Psychology of Leadership.

00:22:45:19 - 00:22:52:23
Kevin Eikenberry
But where do people start? Like, what should they do first.

00:22:53:01 - 00:23:13:19
Skip Bowman
As a who you are in the book, I'm going to talk about protected mindsets as being that, you know, we operate generally fairly protectively. Mindset was, you know, risk averse, fear of failure, fear of rejection, fear of loss, etc.. Right? So we tend to be a bit more predicted and protective than you might think. Even bossy people are essentially being protective is bossy.

00:23:13:19 - 00:23:34:03
Skip Bowman
People are scared of relationship, so they're protecting something which is their independence. So yeah, it's it's similar and it makes you feel strong too. Certainly strong. All flash, safe, invulnerable, perhaps a word you could use it. So where do you start? The start is working out where you lie. And that's sort of in this world of fight flight phrase.

00:23:34:03 - 00:23:54:06
Skip Bowman
I use somebody who, when faces uncertainly protectively, you tend to take control. If that's your journey, then that the like life for that matter, in a fantastic way. Seven Habits of Highly Effective People. Mr. Kirby will have said it's such a such an amazing book. I'm in this business for a long time. I still think that's a great book, and it was written a really long time ago.

00:23:54:06 - 00:24:17:09
Skip Bowman
But his point was, if you have an independent voice, which is somebody who does have fight, right, when you need to have a public victory, you've got to learn to work well with others. He's absolutely right. Okay. If you're if you're somebody who's struggling with assertiveness, tends to want to belong to the group, wants to value relationships and struggles to find their own voice, you need to have the product victory, as he would call it.

00:24:17:09 - 00:24:38:10
Skip Bowman
You've got to learn to be able to speak your mind, to hold accountable cycle. So you have to know that I have a third position which isn't really in in his stuff, which I call the Clam, which is a critical skeptical position. And in this position, we're actually have to do two things. One, you have to believe that you can set a positive goal and shape it.

00:24:38:12 - 00:25:01:08
Skip Bowman
And secondly, you have to stop me so bloody suspicious that everyone around you, because this is a very ineffective position to be in. Quite a lot of really clever people can be here. But once we know where you are, we can sort of start working out how do we bring together your ability to care and to date, in other words, to have that optimal combination of support and challenge in the way that you work together with others, the way you lead.

00:25:01:10 - 00:25:21:16
Skip Bowman
But it's not one size fits all. I challenged Adam Grant, who writes a lot on Instagram recently, etc., where he was saying, you know, we just need humility. I'm saying that's really good advice for somebody who's in hip hop, who's very controlling and dominant, but it's not good advice for somebody who's struggling with assertiveness.

00:25:21:18 - 00:25:44:00
Kevin Eikenberry
Right. That's not opposite ends of the spectrum. And so that's that really is great advice on one end. It's it's the opposite of what's needed on the other end, really. Yeah. I mean, we all need to be humble. Humble. But if humble, if you military becomes every strength, overdone is a weakness. Right. And so I think it's really a really excellent point.

00:25:44:02 - 00:26:14:19
Kevin Eikenberry
So in the world that we live today, you know, in a post COVID world where so many more people are working not in proximity as were before, I mean, that trend would have continued anyway. But we we matched the accelerator on that and didn't send everybody back in every in every organization. So my question is, how is all of this harder now?

00:26:14:19 - 00:26:35:12
Kevin Eikenberry
Like, what would you what would you say to those, like everything you said, apply so that people come together every day or whether they don't? But what would you say specifically to those who are leading at a distance that they might want to be aware of in relationship to safety? Great.

00:26:35:14 - 00:26:54:07
Skip Bowman
It depends on if you're if you're the leader at the distance, at the office or the leader the distance at home, I'd actually prefer you to be the one at home. The best thing about leadership is might the latest slightly weaker. That's always a good thing because the day at the office, you're going to be the king, Queen of all things.

00:26:54:09 - 00:26:57:06
Skip Bowman
And whether you like it or not.

00:26:57:07 - 00:26:59:23
Kevin Eikenberry
And even if you're not that you're perceived as so.

00:27:00:01 - 00:27:18:02
Skip Bowman
Of course this is it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, that's back to the the sort of survival evolutionary thinking that we have, you know, we so it's what they call the, the sales call and they call the authority boss. It's really and if the SEALs experience it, everyone does because they're the toughest people in the whole world. Right.

00:27:18:04 - 00:27:46:05
Skip Bowman
So it really matters. They're hybrid's a super curious thing. We're evolving to it this some technical issues. In other words, humans. Humans grow up with a certain distance between between between us, like only about a major in our intimate relationships. So working with cameras is really tricky, like, like you and I try to do here. So our ability to sort of on a what we call micro behavioral level to build trust is quite difficult.

00:27:46:07 - 00:28:05:07
Skip Bowman
Now there's also the time lag problem, that voice and sound a slightly lagged, which is good for us because we're not trained for that. A brain becomes tends to feel suspicious when we have a gap between sound of visions. So there's a lot of things at a macro level that are really tricky here. So the only way to solve that is, again, scope bold in, right?

00:28:05:10 - 00:28:24:15
Skip Bowman
If you're going to go bold on virtual leadership, one, you need a good camera, you need some good lighting. You look amazing, by the way. And that's really matters because I can build trust you because you're being vulnerable in the way you're lit. Because I can see you. I can. And I've got lots of leaders who seem to be doing the like the dark Lord out of Star Wars.

00:28:24:15 - 00:28:25:22
Skip Bowman
Right?

00:28:26:00 - 00:28:31:02
Kevin Eikenberry
It's got a hood on. Yeah. And witness witness protection, right?

00:28:31:04 - 00:28:33:08
Skip Bowman
Yeah.

00:28:33:09 - 00:28:58:02
Kevin Eikenberry
So I want to shift gears, Skip, before we got a couple of different kinds of questions. We've talked a lot about psychological safety to talk about about growth mindset. And so I'm curious, it's actually a question I ask all of my guests, but I think it maybe especially of interest, given what our conversation has been. What do you do for fun?

00:28:58:04 - 00:29:05:04
Skip Bowman
You're asking And also well, you're also asking an author has three children under the age of three and a half.

00:29:05:06 - 00:29:09:03
Kevin Eikenberry
So that's part of what you do, hopefully, at least part of it's fun, right? Yeah.

00:29:09:05 - 00:29:30:18
Skip Bowman
Yeah, yeah. No, I mean, this is, you know, personally speaking, I think one of my got I don't really have I have a hobby, which is like my wife and I bought an old French farm some three or four years ago. We're renovating it. So we've turned into placing a rent out. And that was just a project I mean, we love.

00:29:30:20 - 00:29:48:01
Skip Bowman
And he was like, is that a business? I don't know. I mean, I want to learn French again. I to I love old buildings. So there you go. So for me, you know, and of course, with the three small kids, you know, we're trying to build up a whole world around that. And and so I'm in dad mode.

00:29:48:01 - 00:30:12:08
Skip Bowman
And so that's pretty much what I what I spend and enjoy a lot. Because to me, spending time with the kids trying to trying to renovate learn French these are things that I for me challenges hobby I just you know I can't yeah I'm not very good on this so far I, I mean I'm I watch cricket because I really like that game but, but in principle I'll, I'll start thinking okay what could we renovate here.

00:30:12:08 - 00:30:29:17
Skip Bowman
So I have a life that is, is authorship and researching my next book etc. But otherwise I love I love projects. Learning French is one of them. Learning everything about, you know, old buildings and architecture. That's something I do. I just my brain just loves learning. I just love that I can't I can't resist it.

00:30:29:18 - 00:30:43:06
Kevin Eikenberry
So. So in all of that, you did you did sort of end with I love learning. So reading is one of the ways we learn. What's something skip, that you've read recently or maybe that you're reading right now?

00:30:43:08 - 00:31:02:08
Skip Bowman
I'd have to say a reread and then, you know, calls the Culture Code. I can really recommend that because these are great. The the funny thing is, is he actually refers to other researchers and writers, and I actually think he tells a story that sounds a bit you know, there's some really good authors that we're like, I need to be honest.

00:31:02:08 - 00:31:25:23
Skip Bowman
I think that quote Coyle tells the story about her research almost in a more, more intriguing way. I think it's a fantastic book. I would highly recommend it. I bought it from my wife who's just out of the new roles. And so you have to read this. This is such a good book. It's such a good, well told story and very solid research, and I can't recommend it higher than that best book I've written outright in a while.

00:31:26:01 - 00:31:39:11
Kevin Eikenberry
Daniel Coyle, The Culture Code and Skip Bowman. Safe to Great. The New Psychology of Leadership. So Skip, where do you want to point people? Where can they learn more about your work and that sort of thing?

00:31:39:13 - 00:31:48:09
Skip Bowman
I'm pretty lucky that Skip Bowman is a pretty unusual. You can you can get your Find Me or a previous vice admiral of the nuclear fleet in America.

00:31:48:11 - 00:31:50:18
Kevin Eikenberry
So it's not you know, it's not.

00:31:50:18 - 00:32:15:23
Skip Bowman
Like Virginia yeah it's a Skip Bowman safe to We're on a mission to make organization safer. Great work. There's lots of ways I got. Let's try to find people who want to read the book, get inspired, want to work with the teams using the book. We've got lots of resources on the skip dashboard at our website. So you there's lots of stuff we're giving away for free there if you get the book so that you can work with the teams on it.

00:32:15:23 - 00:32:39:00
Skip Bowman
I mean, this is a, an important idea. We've I think, you know, the next seven years we've got some big challenges with I am with the with the climate change issues whether you like them or not, some really big changes in our economies and how we make money and so on. So we're going to have to we're going to have to really work hard at being great leaders for these new times.

00:32:39:00 - 00:32:58:02
Skip Bowman
And leadership has changed, like you mentioning, it's digital and it's many other things. And I think I'm hoping the book starts to answer that question. What is the future of leadership? And so check it out and write to me if you got any questions. I do a lot of work on LinkedIn, so that's another place to see what I'm doing.

00:32:58:04 - 00:33:21:12
Kevin Eikenberry
Save numeral two great dot com or skip hyphen bowman dot com either one so you can get connected more, learn more and as Skip said, get a lot of the resources that his free resources he's been talking about. So before we finish the question that I like to ask all of you, every episode is simply this. Now what what action will you take as a result of our conversation?

00:33:21:12 - 00:33:43:17
Kevin Eikenberry
What insights did you get? But that's not really enough. It's not like I had an idea. It's like, What am I going to do? What action are you going to take first? What are you going to try? How are you going to think differently about growth mindset? And even though we've talked about growth mindset, we've talked about actions to take and not just a way to think.

00:33:43:17 - 00:34:08:02
Kevin Eikenberry
So how do you think what might you do to remove yourself or your team from the comfort zone to the learning zone to the growth zone? What have you learned today about how you can think and operate with psychological safety? More differently? Those are just a couple of things I wrote. The challenge for you is to take action on what you learned, because if you do and when you do, you'll get far better results.

00:34:08:02 - 00:34:18:15
Kevin Eikenberry
So, Skip, thank you so much for being here. Thank you for being in us to get the technology fixed. And it was a pleasure to have you. Thanks for being here.

00:34:18:17 - 00:34:22:03
Skip Bowman
Thanks. Thanks, Kevin. Really love the opportunity.

00:34:22:04 - 00:34:45:23
Kevin Eikenberry
And with that, everybody, that means this episode of the Remarkable Leadership podcast is over. If it's your first, there's plenty more to see or listen to by going to wherever you listen to your podcasts or the remarkable podcast sitcom to see any of the past 400 odd episodes. But you don't want do that. Just subscribe wherever it is you subscribe.

00:34:45:23 - 00:34:51:05
Kevin Eikenberry
Because next week we'll be back with another episode of the Remarkable Leadership Podcast. We'll see you then.

Meet Skip Bowman

Skip's Story: Skip Bowman is the author of Safe to Great: The New Psychology of Leadership, a consultant and keynote speaker focusing on how to transform organizations to the green economy with a growth mindset and psychological safety. Australian-born and Europe-based, he has worked with global organizations for over 25 years developing unique programs and approaches that are captured in his recently released Safe2Great concept. “People first” is Skip’s mantra for success in business, leadership, and change. Only when people feel valued and respected can you fully realize the potential of a purpose-based organization. He uses two working languages (Danish & English). He grew up in Perth, Australia, and has spent most of the last 25 years working in Switzerland, England, France, and Denmark. After studying Finance in Australia, he attained his M.A. in Psychology and Languages in Copenhagen. Skip has a Master in Organizational Psychology (Denmark) and completed additional training in cross-cultural management, group dynamics, coaching, and cultural change.

If we know there's somebody behind us who is taking care of us, who, no matter what, is going to continue to care and want us to learn and develop that makes all the difference. That's the magic dust.

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This Episode is brought to you by...

The Long-Distance Team. Remote leadership experts, Kevin Eikenberry and Wayne Turmel, help leaders navigate the new world of remote and hybrid teams to design the culture they desire for their teams and organizations in their new book!

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How Trust Works with Dr. Peter Kim
Professional Development

How Trust Works with Dr. Peter Kim

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We know trust is essential for both personal and professional relationships. Dr. Peter Kim tells Kevin that risk is part of trust, and we spend more time trying to reduce risk vs. building trust. Dr. Kim shares insights from his research on the science behind how trust works. He discusses common misconceptions about trust, how competence and integrity drive trust judgments differently, the role of trust between leaders and followers, what makes an effective apology, and recommendations for building trust on virtual/hybrid teams.

Listen For

  • 00:00 Introduction: The Power of Trust
  • 01:50 Guest Introduction: Dr. Peter H. Kim
  • 05:13 Dr. Kim's Journey to Trust Research
  • 06:26 Impression Management and Identity Negotiation
  • 10:00 The Role of Trust in Effective Leadership
  • 15:30 Trust-Building Strategies in Organizations
  • 20:45 Challenges of Trust in Remote Work Environments
  • 25:50 Practical Tips for Repairing Broken Trust
  • 30:18 Enhancing Team Trust in a Hybrid Work Setting
  • 33:26 Importance of Clear Communication for Trust
  • 38:19 Conclusion
  • Meet Peter

    Peter's Story: Dr. Peter H. Kim is the author of How Trust Works: The Science of How Relationships Are Built, Broken, and Repaired. He is a Professor of Management and Organization at the Marshall School of Business at the University of Southern California. His research has been published in numerous scholarly journals, received ten national/international awards, and has been featured by the New York Times, Washington Post, and NPR. He also serves as a Senior Editor for Organization Science and on the editorial boards for the Academy of Management Review and Negotiation and Conflict Management Research. He is also a past Associate Editor for the Academy of Management Review and the Journal of Trust Research, as well as past Chair of the Academy of Management’s Conflict Management Division.

    Follow The Remarkable Leadership Podcast

    This Episode is brought to you by...

    The Long-Distance Team. Remote leadership experts, Kevin Eikenberry and Wayne Turmel, help leaders navigate the new world of remote and hybrid teams to design the culture they desire for their teams and organizations in their new book!

    Book Recommendations

    Like this?

    Join Our Community

    If you want to view our live podcast episodes, hear about new releases, or chat with others who enjoy this podcast join one of our communities below.

    Leave a Review

    If you liked this conversation, we’d be thrilled if you’d let others know by leaving a review on Apple Podcasts. Here’s a quick guide for posting a review.

    Share:
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    Personal Leadership Development

    Leading Together with Tania Luna

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    What role does power play in your organization and your team? Tania Luna joins Kevin to discuss rethinking power as capacity, not control, and using “power with” instead of “power over” others. She shares four “power with” principles: follow purpose over person, rely on context over control, cultivate talent over collecting it, and build community over crowds. Leaders need to shift their mindset and take action to create a more inclusive and empowering work environment.

    Listen for...

    00:00 Introduction to Power in Leadership
    00:44 Engagement with Audience
    01:54 Introducing Tania Luna
    03:26 Tanya Luna's Background and Early Influences
    06:20 Concepts of Power and Control
    14:05 Power with vs. Power over
    20:00 Implementing Power With Principles
    27:33 Community Building and Leadership
    31:43 Closing Remarks

    Meet Tania

    • Name: Tania Luna
    • Story: Tania Luna is the author of LEAD TOGETHER: Stop Squirreling Away Power and Build a Better Team. She is an entrepreneur, psychology researcher, and writer. She has founded and grown multiple companies, including Scarlet Spark, a nonprofit that creates human-friendly workplaces for organizations that help animals, and LifeLabs Learning, a leadership development company. Her other books include The Leader Lab: How to Become a Great Manager, Faster and Surprise: Embrace the Unpredictable and Engineer the Unexpected. She is also the co-host of the podcast Talk Psych to Me and a TED speaker on the power of perspective. Across her work, Tania strives to inspire interconnectedness among all living beings, humans included. She lives in a micro-sanctuary with rescued pigs, goats, dogs, roosters, cats, and the love of her life.

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    How to Set Direction, Create Advantage and Achieve Excellence with Rich Horwath
    Personal Leadership Development

    How to Set Direction, Create Advantage and Achieve Excellence with Rich Horwath

    Share:

    How do you define strategy? How does your team define strategy? According to Rich Horwath, there are 91 definitions of strategy. No wonder we get confused during strategic planning. Rich joins Kevin to discuss some of the mistakes and misconceptions about strategy, such as confusing numbers with strategy and doing the same things over and over. He introduces the GOST framework, which helps connect strategy and goals by answering the what and how questions. He also discusses the four components of the strategic fitness system: strategy, leadership, organization, and communication, and shares two key habits for strategic success: committing time to think and regularly reallocating resources.

    Meet Rich

    Rich Horwath
    • Name: Rich Horwath
    • His Story: Rich Horwath is the author of Strategic: The Skill to Set Direction, Create Advantage, and Achieve Executive Excellence. He is also the founder and CEO of the Strategic Thinking Institute, where he is a strategy facilitator, advisor, and coach to executive leadership teams. He is the New York Times and Wall Street Journal bestselling author of eight books on strategic thinking and rated the number one keynote speaker on strategy at national events, including the Society for Human Resource Management Strategy Conference. Rich has helped more than a quarter million people develop their strategic thinking and planning capabilities over the past 20 years in pursuit of his vision to teach the world to be strategic.

    This episode is brought to you by...

    Remarkable Masterclasses. Each masterclass is designed to help you become the remarkable leader and human you were born to be. Details on how to get on board for a specific skill or get discounts each month can be found on our website.

    Book Recommendations

    Related Episodes

    Join Our Community

    If you want to view our live podcast episodes, hear about new releases, or chat with others who enjoy this podcast join one of our communities below.

    Leave a Review

    If you liked this conversation, we’d be thrilled if you’d let others know by leaving a review on Apple Podcasts. Here’s a quick guide for posting a review.

    Rate and Review the Remarkable Leadership Podcast
    Share:
    Read More