The Remarkable Leadership Podcast

00:00:08:07 - 00:00:37:02
Kevin Eikenberry
Wherever you sit as a leader, you have a boss and sometimes communicating with them, given the power and positional difference, it can be hard. And that's why I'm excited for you about the conversation that is about to begin. Welcome to another episode of the Remarkable Leadership Podcast, where we are helping leaders grow personally and professionally to lead more effectively and make a bigger, positive difference for their team's organization and the world.

00:00:37:04 - 00:00:56:14
Kevin Eikenberry
If you are listening to this podcast in the future, you could join us live. When we do these on video and with the chance for people to engage and share with us and for you to get this information sooner. So if you'd like to join us in the future, live, the best way to do that is to join one of our, Facebook group or our LinkedIn group.

00:00:56:14 - 00:01:27:19
Kevin Eikenberry
You can go to remarkable podcast.com/facebook or remarkable podcast.com/linkedin to do that. Take your pick up to you. Not the only places that we share the info, but it's a good place to start. So today's episode is brought to you by my latest book, Flexible Leadership. Navigate Uncertainty and Lead with Confidence. It's time to realize that styles can get in our way, and that following our strengths might not always be the best approach in a world more complex and uncertain than ever.

00:01:27:20 - 00:01:50:13
Kevin Eikenberry
Leaders need a new perspective, a new set of tools to create the great results their teams, organizations, and organizations need. That's what flexible leadership provide you. Learn more. And order your copy now at remarkable podcast.com/flexible. And with that I'm going to introduce my guest. You already see her there. Sabina I'm going to ask you to pronounce your last name.

00:01:50:13 - 00:01:54:14
Kevin Eikenberry
Since we didn't have a chance ahead of time, I want to make sure I get it right.

00:01:54:15 - 00:01:55:15
Sabina Nawaz
No worries.

00:01:55:17 - 00:02:22:07
Kevin Eikenberry
Oh that's good. That's how I had it in my head. So, Sabina Nava Navas is our guest today. She's a speaker. Oops. Hold on a second. I lost, I lost it. There it is. She is a speaker executive coach who advises C-level executives and teams at fortune 500 corporations, government agencies, nonprofits and academic institutions, around the world.

00:02:22:07 - 00:02:51:09
Kevin Eikenberry
She is also teaches faculty at Northeastern and Drexel universities. During her 14 year tenure at Microsoft, she went from managing software development teams to leading the company's executive development and succession planning efforts for over 11,000 managers and nearly a thousand executives, advising both Steve Ballmer and Bill gates directly. She has written for and been featured in the Harvard Business Review, Wall Street Journal, and Forbes, and now she has a brand new book out.

00:02:51:09 - 00:03:03:17
Kevin Eikenberry
It's called You're the Boss, Become the Manager You Want to Be and Others Need. It's fabulous book, and I'm so happy that she's here with us. Sabina, thanks for joining us.

00:03:03:19 - 00:03:07:12
Sabina Nawaz
Thank you so much for having me, Kevin. I'm looking forward to this.

00:03:07:14 - 00:03:25:13
Kevin Eikenberry
All right. So, so let's just dive in. And, you know, I gave a little bit of a of the storyline of your career, but what sort of leads you specifically to this book? And then tell us a little bit about why this book.

00:03:25:14 - 00:03:56:06
Sabina Nawaz
Well, I'll start with the personal reason why this book and what led me to this in terms of my journey. It started with being a lousy manager. Now I didn't start out that way. Interestingly, when I was managing software teams and in my early first years of managing Microsoft management development, people gave me feedback that I was the best boss they ever had because I cared, I coached them, I nurtured their careers.

00:03:56:08 - 00:04:21:02
Sabina Nawaz
It was fantastic. And then everything changed. The day I was coming back from parental leave, putting on lipstick for the first time in five months. My assistant Laurie calls me going, where are you? Steve expects you in 30 minutes. Laurie starts reading me the memo that I'm supposed to discuss with Steve Ballmer, the CEO of the company, as I hit warp speed on my way to work the first day after parental leave.

00:04:21:04 - 00:04:50:20
Sabina Nawaz
And that sets the tone. Kevin, that overflowing inbox, a jam packed calendar, an infant at home that doesn't sleep. So for me, no sleep, no peace, no patience. I'm sure you found yourself and the listeners have found themselves in places like this where overnight I morphed from being caring and compassionate and nurturing to short and snippy and the worst part of this, because I'm thinking, you know, we're dealing with high level executives.

00:04:50:20 - 00:05:10:17
Sabina Nawaz
I need to micromanage. I need to be on top of every detail so that I or my team don't look incompetent. Who has time to explain things, let alone repeat things? Just let's go. We'll deal with empathy later. We'll have time for it later. Of course, we don't. My fingers are always on the keyboard when someone comes to talk to me, indicating you're less important than me.

00:05:10:17 - 00:05:34:00
Sabina Nawaz
I'm very, very busy. Spit it out. Move on and the worst part of all of this, Kevin, is I'm thinking I'm killing it. I'm doing a really good job. Look at how efficient I am, how many boxes I can check. And then my colleague Joe comes into the office and says, do you know that Zach is crying in his office because of something you said?

00:05:34:02 - 00:05:49:05
Sabina Nawaz
And my whole body turns hot with shame. And that's when I realize, oh my gosh, what has happened? I've gone from best boss ever to somebody that people apparently fear and don't want to work for.

00:05:49:07 - 00:06:08:00
Kevin Eikenberry
So. So after telling us this story, people are saying, wow, this is the person that wrote this book called You're the Boss, the kind of manager we want to be. But early in the book, you say something that's a little bit, controversial or or some might not agree, at least not until you unpack it a little bit.

00:06:08:00 - 00:06:17:14
Kevin Eikenberry
So you say there are no bad bosses. Well, you just described yourself as being one. So what do you mean by no bad bosses?

00:06:17:16 - 00:06:39:02
Sabina Nawaz
Yeah, well, there are a few controversial things in the book, including me disagreeing with President Abraham Lincoln. Maybe we'll go into that later, but the the notion is that it's not a binary. First of all, you're not a good boss or a bad boss. Both of those things reside within the same person, just like they did with me.

00:06:39:04 - 00:06:45:15
Sabina Nawaz
So it's not about being a bad boss. It's about having bad behaviors that are forged under pressure.

00:06:45:17 - 00:06:48:17
Kevin Eikenberry
Bad boss behaviors are not the same as being a bad boss.

00:06:48:17 - 00:07:13:11
Sabina Nawaz
Yes, it does not define you. See, this is where I. My other point that I just brought up is that it is not power that corrupts. It is pressure that corrupts pressure that corrupts who here is not under tremendous amounts of pressure these days. And who here hasn't done something at some point when under pressure that they're not proud of?

00:07:13:13 - 00:07:40:20
Kevin Eikenberry
Yeah, I think that's a if we were in an actual room, it would be pretty quiet. After you make that comment and yes, I truly agree there's a difference between the behavior and the behavior. And that's clearly what we're talking about here. And you just hinted at something. One of the things that I really like, there's there's so much talk about being authentic and about authenticity.

00:07:40:22 - 00:08:02:01
Kevin Eikenberry
And in the book, you talk about some myths and the myth that I want us to talk about. Listen, I don't know. I'm not looking at it right now, but you're episode number 480, some of this show, and I don't know how many times you talked about authenticity and authentic behavior a lot. You say something that's, I think, incredibly important.

00:08:02:03 - 00:08:13:11
Kevin Eikenberry
And it's based around this idea of myth number four, which is that authentic authenticity is singular. What do you mean? And why is that a myth?

00:08:13:13 - 00:08:37:13
Sabina Nawaz
Yeah. Back to something controversial. I don't believe in a singular authenticity. You know, Kevin, I'm sure you you've experienced this as well. When I'm talking to a prospective coaching client, a CEO and the CEO is receive, say, some feedback that they're hard on other people and they come and say, you know, I don't want coaching to change who I am.

00:08:37:13 - 00:09:07:12
Sabina Nawaz
I've got to be me. And and, so we have this conversation that authenticity is never meant as a singular word. Here's why. Are you truly the exact same person as CEO as you are as partner at home, as you are, as parent as you are, as best friend as you are to investors, versus to your direct reports versus to the entire organization.

00:09:07:13 - 00:09:35:12
Sabina Nawaz
Which of those is the true you? And the answer would be all of the above, right. They're all true. Now, there might be some basic things that remain true regardless. I think that when people talk about those things, they're more about values that are underneath all of this, rather than this word authenticity. I mean, think about this. This is, as Herminia Ibarra says from Insead.

00:09:35:14 - 00:09:55:20
Sabina Nawaz
I love her chapter on authenticity in her book where she says, you know, if we were truly authentic to who we are, we'd still be a five year old having a temper tantrum on the floor when we didn't get our way. Authenticity can also be a ruse for not actually wanting to grow and change. You have to question, right?

00:09:55:23 - 00:09:57:14
Sabina Nawaz
I'm seeing your reaction, Kevin.

00:09:57:15 - 00:10:09:07
Kevin Eikenberry
Yeah, I mean, now we're now we're connecting it to how we frame our identity. Right? If if we say, well, this is the kind of yes, that's my identity, then we then it does become a ruse. So so go ahead. Continue.

00:10:09:09 - 00:10:41:10
Sabina Nawaz
Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. So just like if I call myself a good boss or a bad boss, it becomes my identity. And it's really the behaviors underneath it. It's the same with this. Which of those things that you have authentically held true are now getting in your way and need to be busted. You need to bust out of those because it goes to another key point in my book, which is getting promoted is often the most dangerous time in your career, most dangerous time in your career when you're getting promoted.

00:10:41:15 - 00:11:08:11
Sabina Nawaz
Why? Because the very strengths that were quote unquote authentic strengths that have propelled you here are going to be viewed very differently from the next that are craning up now to look at you there. They will have a less charitable view of your attention to detail and call you a micromanager, or of your being strategic, and call you manipulative, or you being calm and call you lacking passion.

00:11:08:13 - 00:11:16:15
Sabina Nawaz
So you've got to look at the world in a different way every time you're going up the rung.

00:11:16:17 - 00:11:44:12
Kevin Eikenberry
100%. And, and everything that we can see as a strength can become and does become for us often a weakness. And that's that whole point of, well, this once I framed myself as this is who I am that causes that's that's wonderful until it's not right. And and that's exactly the thing that I was struck as I was reading your book or talking with Sabina was, the author of the new book, You're the Boss.

00:11:44:12 - 00:12:03:07
Kevin Eikenberry
I was struck, Sabina, as I was reading it, about how many things connected with my new book, Flexible Leadership, even though really going in different, doing different things in many ways. There are some great connections. And so you talked about you hinted at one of the big ideas in the book, and that is that pressure corrupts more than power.

00:12:03:07 - 00:12:28:04
Kevin Eikenberry
But you do spend some time in the book talking about power and the power gap. You know, if we're the boss, if we're the what I call capital leader leader with the job title. Then there's there is a there is a positional power dynamic. Right. So what would you say about power gaps before I want to get this, I want to get to some stuff about pressure.

00:12:28:06 - 00:12:39:00
Kevin Eikenberry
But what would you say to folks listening about power gaps, whether they're listening for themselves or whether they're thinking about developing organizations.

00:12:39:01 - 00:13:01:20
Sabina Nawaz
Yeah. So there's a natural gap as you get promoted into positions of greater authority. And some of that is healthy of course, because don't delude yourself. You're no longer one of one of the guys, you're no longer somebody just their friend. You have different perks in your office that alone separates you from others.

00:13:01:22 - 00:13:28:02
Sabina Nawaz
But power gaps, the idea being when it's not useful is that the higher the higher we go, the less we end up knowing. The less we end up knowing about the effect our behavior is having, the impact our behavior is having on other people. Just like me. When I thought I was doing a great job and I was being really efficient and actually the reality was completely different.

00:13:28:04 - 00:13:52:05
Sabina Nawaz
Power. It is a it's like a distorted volume knob. Everything that we see from up to down becomes louder, becomes harsher, and people perceive it is directly targeting them. When we toss off a casual hey, can we talk on Monday? That ruined somebody's weekend?

00:13:52:10 - 00:13:58:18
Kevin Eikenberry
Yeah, certainly the oh my word, what are they going to talk to me about on Monday?

00:13:58:20 - 00:14:28:10
Sabina Nawaz
Right. Do I, do I need to do I need to go into the office on Sunday and and and clear out the things I really like in there because I'm going to be escorted out on Monday for sure that recognizing the impact of that downward. And by the way, here's the other thing. You cannot believe fully everything that's coming up because that volume knob gets distorted in the opposite direction with everything that's being said up is is muted.

00:14:28:12 - 00:14:48:04
Sabina Nawaz
It's way milder than what the person is experiencing. So when someone says, yes boss, everything is fine. What they truly mean is I've started a secret group chat about your management style. So so you've got to be mindful of this gap that gets created when authority walks in the room.

00:14:48:06 - 00:15:07:06
Kevin Eikenberry
And we and and we're blind to it. Often. Because we, we, we look in the mirror every morning and we see the same person we saw the day before. But the minute that, we have a job title attached to us, we're seeing differently by folks. Yes. When that job title changes, we get seen more differently.

00:15:07:06 - 00:15:08:03
Kevin Eikenberry
Again, it's.

00:15:08:05 - 00:15:12:14
Sabina Nawaz
Exactly, exactly, Kevin. We haven't changed, but our position has changed.

00:15:12:16 - 00:15:36:16
Kevin Eikenberry
Yeah. And the expectations of us have changed. And we could. Yes. And so there's a whole conversation there too. So you talk in the book, there's so many things we could talk about. I want to go right to the pressure piece, because I think you already said it. And I think that, that might be the the truly unique sort of approach that you've taken in the book that maybe is sets this book apart from others.

00:15:36:18 - 00:15:59:18
Kevin Eikenberry
Not not that you're the first to acknowledge that we feel pressure. Right. But you've talked about it in terms of how those how it falls out in terms of pitfalls. And you say that there are three big areas of those pitfalls. And, I'm, I'm going to have us dive into each of them, but just tell everybody what the pitfalls are first at a high level, and then we'll dive into them a little bit.

00:15:59:20 - 00:16:03:00
Sabina Nawaz
Are you talking about the the specific pressure pitfalls? The.

00:16:03:02 - 00:16:27:13
Kevin Eikenberry
Yes. Pressure pitfalls, controlling, abdicating, automating. I just did that. So let's just talk about each one. Let's just go into. So give us an overview of that. So what you're saying is we we do one or more of these things when we feel under pressure. You already talked about your pressure situation. So when you talk about, those pitfalls say a little bit more about them and then we'll dive.

00:16:27:15 - 00:17:08:21
Sabina Nawaz
Yeah, there's, there's several different pitfalls. The one of the very there are a couple that are that come up over and over again. One is the pitfall of our own unmet hungers. And what I mean by that is our inner desires are very human inner desires to be loved, to be universally beloved, to be seen as the smartest person in the room to, never age out, to, or be relevant, to build dependency on ourselves, to be seen as a hero or a martyr, or a victim.

00:17:08:23 - 00:17:43:03
Sabina Nawaz
These are not necessarily noble desires. They're self-serving, but they come packaged in our psychology as human beings and just like when you go to the grocery store hungry and you buy junk food, if you go to work hungry, you indulge in junk behaviors. It's the pressures you're putting on yourself because of these these hungers, these unmet hungers to do that, a client I coach, has a insatiable, need to be adored by everybody.

00:17:43:05 - 00:18:05:11
Sabina Nawaz
And and they told me I'm. This is it. I'm going to go read them the riot act about the budget. It's got to be cut. They're they're dragging their heels. And, after in the next session, I said, so how did that go? Oh, we didn't really get to that because we started talking about this amazing presentation I did with these clients.

00:18:05:17 - 00:18:40:11
Sabina Nawaz
And of course, the team knows how to play you. They started flattering this person and off they went from their main track. So recognizing what are the unmet hungers that can sidetrack you, that can take you off on junky parts. And another really common one is being a sole provider. Sole as solid as an. I am the only one who it's the I've got this mantra and I could again do this for the best of intentions.

00:18:40:13 - 00:18:58:13
Sabina Nawaz
And some of it is great in moderation, as you said, Kevin. So a sole provider, as a caretaker, you know, my team is under a lot of pressure. I'm going to just jump in and help them out, or I can get this done faster than I can explain it to somebody, or I can do this better.

00:18:58:15 - 00:19:19:06
Kevin Eikenberry
Or no one's ever said those things, ever. You know, and here's the other thing. Going back to this whole getting promoted thing. One of the things, those things that you just described, being able to do something better, being able to do something faster, being able to, you know, to get a lot accomplished are often how we got promoted and how we view ourselves.

00:19:19:06 - 00:19:27:22
Kevin Eikenberry
And so why would we want to let go of that stuff? Right. So we end up being in this controlling mode as a way to try to deal with the pressure, right?

00:19:28:00 - 00:19:51:23
Sabina Nawaz
Yes, yes, yes. And again, because the more we know the less the more the more we grow, the less we know. Nobody's telling you that. So. So you you think you're doing great. You're doing a great job. Look, I just jumped in with my cape flying, and I rescued the team. But how many? Then you basically put yourself in as a perpetual motion machine.

00:19:51:23 - 00:20:00:03
Sabina Nawaz
You're constantly having to rescue, and it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. Nobody can do it better because you've never given them a chance to learn and grow.

00:20:00:05 - 00:20:22:17
Kevin Eikenberry
How could they possibly do it? Because you keep doing it for them. So I think everyone sort of sees that sort of controlling stuff and how those hungers can feed into that. One of the things you talk about, some as well, is this idea that often we do the opposite of controlling, we abdicate. So when you talk about abdicate, what does that look like for us as leaders?

00:20:22:17 - 00:20:44:07
Kevin Eikenberry
And for those of you as you are listening, don't just listen and say, oh, yeah, I know someone who did that. I want you to be holding up the mirror as Sabina says this, because we all have done it, some of us maybe way more than others. But rather than saying, oh man, I know who needs to listen to this conversation, make sure you're listening yourself.

00:20:44:07 - 00:20:49:08
Kevin Eikenberry
So when you when you talk about abdicating here, what do you mean?

00:20:49:10 - 00:21:09:03
Sabina Nawaz
I will answer that question, but I have to. I cannot help but comment on what you just said, Kevin, I have now had three people tell me that they have anonymous dropped off a copy of the book to their boss, and but these are people who are managers as well. And I said, have you read the book fully yourself?

00:21:09:05 - 00:21:13:05
Sabina Nawaz
So yes, absolutely. Yeah. We as.

00:21:13:05 - 00:21:17:07
Kevin Eikenberry
Authors, we are happy for people to buy multiple books.

00:21:17:09 - 00:21:18:12
Sabina Nawaz
But I don't think either of you.

00:21:18:12 - 00:21:21:13
Kevin Eikenberry
Guys are happy if you aren't.

00:21:21:15 - 00:21:51:16
Sabina Nawaz
Taking action yourself to it. Yeah, right. Right. And there are four questions that you can ask yourself to give yourself a quick diagnostic. We can get to that as to whether you need to look in the mirror yourself. Abdicating the the antidote to sole provider is to delegate. However, almost 100% of my clients make a cardinal mistake when delegating, and so it doesn't work.

00:21:51:18 - 00:22:00:14
Sabina Nawaz
And then they go see they. I delegated Sabina, but it didn't work. And I'm like, yeah, not because of them. That's a new problem rather than problem. Yeah.

00:22:00:14 - 00:22:02:00
Kevin Eikenberry
You didn't really delegate.

00:22:02:02 - 00:22:24:04
Sabina Nawaz
Yes. So or you didn't delegate. Right. The number one mistake people make with delegation is treating it like an on off switch. That is, they abdicate all responsibility until the Friday night before the deadline, when the person, the hapless person brings over whatever their best guess is of what you wanted. And then you go, that's not what it is.

00:22:24:04 - 00:22:43:00
Sabina Nawaz
And then you swoop in and there goes your weekend, there goes their blood pressure, etc. so that delegation, quote unquote, of here, you take it, Kevin, I know you're great. You're going to do a fantastic job delegating. Meaning I don't have to do anything with it that is completely wrong.

00:22:43:02 - 00:22:47:16
Kevin Eikenberry
What do I call dumping? I'm just gonna dump it on them. Right now. We're saying the same thing.

00:22:47:16 - 00:22:48:06
Sabina Nawaz
Exactly.

00:22:48:06 - 00:22:58:04
Kevin Eikenberry
Love your. We're abdicating here because we're abdicating it, but. Well, allowing ourselves to change. Well, we can't let the whole thing fail. So we then write back and put our cape on when we have to write.

00:22:58:09 - 00:23:23:16
Sabina Nawaz
Exactly, exactly. And and that just causes more harm than not. And you're better off being the sole provider in those cases. Instead, you got to treat delegation like a deal. So you do it not by not based on the capabilities, the knowledge, the skills of the person who you're delegating to. And in all cases, you want to have checkpoints if the task is important enough.

00:23:23:18 - 00:23:27:08
Sabina Nawaz
So you're not surprised on a Friday night.

00:23:27:10 - 00:23:32:07
Kevin Eikenberry
And so that we can can be coaching them to, to, to to.

00:23:32:09 - 00:23:32:23
Sabina Nawaz
Exactly.

00:23:32:23 - 00:23:50:17
Kevin Eikenberry
Get what they're missing along the way. Otherwise you're just dumping it on them. They make that their highest priority because the boss just gave it to them. And then yes, when it doesn't go well, we as you said, first thing you said was, well, I tried that, but it didn't work well because to your point that you didn't really do it well or correct.

00:23:50:17 - 00:23:51:12
Kevin Eikenberry
Exactly.

00:23:51:14 - 00:23:53:09
Sabina Nawaz
Exactly.

00:23:53:11 - 00:24:01:16
Kevin Eikenberry
So you mentioned those four diagnostic questions. I would be remiss as the host, you know, questions.

00:24:01:18 - 00:24:20:22
Sabina Nawaz
Well, there's right at the end of the book, there's a set of 42 questions called 360 yourself. That is, get a, feedback for yourself, because not everybody is going to give you direct feedback. And here's a way to check which power gaps or which pressure pitfalls you might be falling into. Now, if you don't want to take at the time.

00:24:21:03 - 00:24:54:14
Sabina Nawaz
Yes. That's it. If you don't want to time to take the time to do those 42, here's a few. Number one, does anybody bring up ideas or disagree with you, or are you the only one bringing up ideas? Are you? Secondly, are you the one who's working the hardest, as in coming up with all the agendas for the meeting, bringing in speakers, figuring out how person should talk to person B, etc.?

00:24:54:16 - 00:25:28:10
Sabina Nawaz
I'll stick with three. The third one. Yeah, but are you justifying your actions that you know are bad boss behaviors with a. Yeah, but yeah, but this is an especially busy time of year. When is it not. Yeah. But they're not going to be able to pay attention to X or Y. So whenever you have a. Yeah. But coming on likely you are you are falling into one of these traps and pitfalls that you need to look in the mirror for.

00:25:28:12 - 00:25:49:02
Kevin Eikenberry
I completely agree. And those are, those are excellent questions that. Yeah, but one I think will hit for most everybody. And it gets at some of those hungers that you mentioned earlier as well. It's actually really important. And it really does connect back to that identity piece that we talked about before. Right. Well, yeah. But that's just the way I lead.

00:25:49:02 - 00:26:00:02
Kevin Eikenberry
That's you have to understand, that's how that that the assessment I took said these are my strengths. And so you just take a yes. Right. And it's all of that is just a ruse to use the word that you used earlier.

00:26:00:05 - 00:26:01:16
Sabina Nawaz
Yes. Yes for.

00:26:01:16 - 00:26:27:07
Kevin Eikenberry
Sure. So there's plenty of stuff. I mean, there's lots of great stuff in here about, in the book about communication. You have, you have a number of communication fault lines that you talk about. Let's just we've got time maybe to do what's one piece of advice that you would give people listening to help them be a better leadership communicator or to avoid a pitfall that many leaders.

00:26:27:13 - 00:26:27:22
Sabina Nawaz
Yes.

00:26:27:23 - 00:26:28:22
Kevin Eikenberry
Fall into?

00:26:29:00 - 00:26:38:05
Sabina Nawaz
Oh, it's very clear to me, Kevin, one thing. Shut up. And what I mean by that is, no.

00:26:38:07 - 00:26:46:19
Kevin Eikenberry
We're pretty clear on what that means. Everyone's pretty clear on what that means. And you don't need them. You don't need to modify it. You can just leave it right the way it is.

00:26:46:20 - 00:26:48:11
Sabina Nawaz
Awesome.

00:26:48:13 - 00:26:54:09
Kevin Eikenberry
Right? I mean, we all need to hear that. And and.

00:26:54:11 - 00:27:12:10
Kevin Eikenberry
There are some of us as leaders who are more naturally extroverted, who may need to hear it more. And yet, every leader I've ever observed and coached needs to hear it sometimes, regardless of where they are. On introversion extroversion, it's add to that comment on that.

00:27:12:12 - 00:27:26:05
Sabina Nawaz
Yes, myself included, myself included. You know, I've written the book on it, but I, you know, because I'm the more experienced you have, the harder it is to shut up.

00:27:26:07 - 00:27:29:15
Kevin Eikenberry
Yeah. Oh, yeah. Because we think we know.

00:27:29:17 - 00:27:56:22
Sabina Nawaz
We know. And we and we do know. And we are right a lot of the time. But what is that doing to the people who also want to climb up the ladder, who might have ideas where we have blind spots, who might have ways to enrich what we're saying? And do you want to leave the meeting feeling satisfied that you were the smartest person in the room, or do you want to leave the meeting?

00:27:57:00 - 00:28:14:07
Sabina Nawaz
Having other people believe that they were really smart and they had an opportunity to shine? If you want to continue to be overwhelmed, have a packed calendar and no sleep and no peace. Continue to be the smartest person in the room and talk all the time.

00:28:14:09 - 00:28:20:12
Kevin Eikenberry
Oh and oh, by the way, when you do all those things, you. That's what you'll get. But what you won't get is commitment.

00:28:20:14 - 00:28:21:12
Sabina Nawaz
Yes.

00:28:21:14 - 00:28:30:00
Kevin Eikenberry
You won't get the commitment of your team. And so you wonder why you're not getting that. And you might look at how much of the time you're spending talking.

00:28:30:02 - 00:28:35:01
Sabina Nawaz
None of the commitment and all of the blame. Because of course, it was all your idea in the first place.

00:28:35:02 - 00:28:53:20
Kevin Eikenberry
But what? And then the time you really do want help? They're not going to. And they're not going to answer because they want. I figured this out. This is just a they just listen to some podcast, get some training, read some. Yes. Thank God I ask it because they're not going to buy it because you've never you've never cultivated that.

00:28:53:22 - 00:29:01:06
Kevin Eikenberry
Is there anything I didn't ask Sabina that you really wish I would have?

00:29:01:08 - 00:29:34:14
Sabina Nawaz
What a great question. I spent all the time and I'm thinking, Kevin, if there was one thing I want people to really sit with and ponder, goes back to Isaac Newton. Every action has a reaction in your position as a boss. Every action you take, every twitch of your eyebrow, every little wince because you have indigestion, has a reaction because you're no longer just managing yourself.

00:29:34:14 - 00:29:44:01
Sabina Nawaz
You're managing an organization. Other people. Do you know what that reaction is and how will you find that out?

00:29:44:03 - 00:30:10:04
Kevin Eikenberry
And trust me, everybody they're watching, they are watching and they're interpreting all of it. Right? Good. Bad. You're wrong. A couple of other things. Sabina, before we go, one is I'm really curious. I like to to help everyone. And for me to, to learn a little bit more about our guests. And so I'm curious what you do for fun.

00:30:10:05 - 00:30:36:07
Sabina Nawaz
Well, I ran 20 miles yesterday, and, you could call it a really twisted sense of fun, but I loved it. I loved being in a little cocoon, listening to, a thriller on my earbuds and just running in this gorgeous sunny day with beautiful vistas. I also love to cook, and, host people. I'm an extrovert, so for me, fun.

00:30:36:07 - 00:30:43:20
Sabina Nawaz
And, even though running is a solitary piece, I love connecting with people and spending time in a variety of different ways.

00:30:43:22 - 00:31:00:17
Kevin Eikenberry
So usually I've had the chance to talk to my guests for a minute or two before we start. We didn't get the chance to do that today. And I have a question. The only question I tell people I'm going to ask and, I might not ask you, except I'm looking behind you. And so I'm confident you won't have a problem with the answer.

00:31:00:17 - 00:31:07:09
Kevin Eikenberry
So are you ready? Here it is. I rarely ask this without telling people I'm going to. So it's okay if you have to ponder for a second. Bring it.

00:31:07:09 - 00:31:08:11
Sabina Nawaz
On. Yes.

00:31:08:12 - 00:31:11:11
Kevin Eikenberry
What are you reading these days?

00:31:11:13 - 00:31:51:11
Sabina Nawaz
I read, so I simultaneously read 4 or 5 books at the same, time. Right now my book club is reading Autumn by Ali Smith, and I've just started, so I don't really have a lot of, comments on that. I've also reading, Martyr by Akbar Covey. And founder's Dilemmas, which is about, startups and, and some of the myths that we go into, as we found companies and the, the problems with being overly optimistic, for example, when you set up an organization, those are the three I'm reading right now.

00:31:51:13 - 00:32:10:04
Kevin Eikenberry
We will have all of those in the show notes. Everybody along, of course, with Sabina, his book, You're the Boss, become the Manager you want to be and others need Sabina. Where can you point people? Where do you want people to go to get the book, to connect with you? Like where would you like to point people?

00:32:10:06 - 00:32:32:17
Sabina Nawaz
Yeah. The book you can you can go anywhere. Books are sold. Probably the best way to connect is through my website. Sabina was.com. You can sign up for my Substack there or, message me if you've used downloaded the tools that I'm giving away with the with the book. And you use them. Message me, tell me how it goes.

00:32:32:19 - 00:32:52:07
Kevin Eikenberry
All right. Awesome. So before we say our goodbyes, everybody who's listening, I have a question for you. It's a question I ask you every single week, and it is simply this. Now what? Now that you've listened for the last 30 minutes or so, what are you going to do with what you learned? Taking in the information is good listening is wonderful.

00:32:52:13 - 00:33:14:18
Kevin Eikenberry
Taking action is when differences will begin to occur. So whether it's asking yourself those questions that you heard earlier or whether it's thinking about delegation as a dialog, and how might you need to change that dial, whatever it might be that you took from today? The only way this is of real value to you is if you take action on those things.

00:33:14:18 - 00:33:33:00
Kevin Eikenberry
And if you're saying, Kevin, I got a bunch of stuff, great. Pick one. What are you going to do today or tomorrow with what you got here? Because it's that that will make a difference for you to help you become the leader you want to be, and you were born to be. So, Sabina, thank you for being here.

00:33:33:00 - 00:33:36:16
Kevin Eikenberry
It was a pleasure to have you. I'm glad we were able to make this happen.

00:33:36:18 - 00:33:53:11
Sabina Nawaz
Thank you so much, Kevin. I've just your your questions are $1 million worth it? This is this is, this is really, really important right now for people to look in the mirror and examine how they're leading at the time that we find ourselves. And so thank you for having me.

00:33:53:13 - 00:34:11:11
Kevin Eikenberry
You're so welcome, everybody. If you enjoyed this, make sure you subscribe so you don't miss next week's episode. And if you enjoyed this, make sure you tell somebody else so they can come and join us. In the past looking at the archive. But always next week there'll be another episode of the Remarkable Leadership Podcast. Thanks everybody.