The Remarkable Leadership Podcast

00:00:08:12 - 00:00:26:14
Kevin Eikenberry
We can always learn from wise people who have done things we might want to do, and are willing to share their insights and wisdom. You could say we do that here each week, but rarely have I anticipated a conversation as much as this one. Buckle in for a different kind of conversation, but one that might make all the difference for you.

00:00:26:16 - 00:00:52:10
Kevin Eikenberry
Welcome to another episode of the Remarkable Leadership Podcast, where we are helping leaders grow personally and professionally to make a bigger difference for their teams, organizations, and the world. If you are listening to this podcast, you can join us in the future for future, for live episodes on your favorite social media channel where we stream them regularly. You can get information about when those lives are happening and figure out how to join us by joining our Facebook or LinkedIn groups.

00:00:52:12 - 00:01:24:01
Kevin Eikenberry
You can just go to remarkable podcast.com/facebook or remarkable podcast.com/linkedin to get all of that info. And while most of our episodes our first live stream on a variety of social media platforms, this episode was recorded as a part of our annual Virtual Leader Con event. You can learn more about that event and sign up for announcements for next year, so you can be in the know and on the list for next year's free to attend event at Virtual Leader con.com.

00:01:24:03 - 00:01:42:14
Kevin Eikenberry
Welcome back everybody. So glad that you're back with us. For some of you you had lunch. If you're in Europe, I don't know. You had a beverage. I don't know what you did. But whatever. You had 30 minutes to leave and do something else. And refresh yourself and, maybe reflect a little bit on the morning, or our first sessions morning for Kevin.

00:01:42:16 - 00:01:58:05
Kevin Eikenberry
So glad that you're back. And, if you were with us first thing this morning, just in the chat real quick, just for fun. If you were here first thing this morning and heard me say that we're going to talk about macaroni and cheese. Just say yes in the chat. I just want to know in the chat if anyone remembers that.

00:01:58:05 - 00:02:05:21
Kevin Eikenberry
Like, how do you forget that? But see, that also tells me how it's Aaron. You look at.

00:02:05:23 - 00:02:10:09
Erin Wade
Like, what the actual,

00:02:10:11 - 00:02:31:04
Kevin Eikenberry
I am going to introduce you to Aaron Wade here in just a second. And this is the second time during VLC that, a session will also eventually be on the Remarkable Leadership podcast. So for those of you that are listening to the podcast later, we're so glad you're here. You're getting to sit inside or be inside of our virtual leader con event, which you could which happens once a year.

00:02:31:06 - 00:02:47:09
Kevin Eikenberry
Which you can learn more about at virtual at leader contact. Com. But for all of you that are here with us live. So glad you're here. Here's the backstory as to why this is going to be, here on VLC and also on the podcast, because Aaron and I were going to do this and we had a little bit of a miscommunication.

00:02:47:09 - 00:03:04:09
Kevin Eikenberry
And so she showed up at the time we were going to start and or like a minute or whatever after. And I had already gone live and said, well, I guess my guest isn't here. We'll do this again later. So we had the chance to chat then about her new book, which doesn't come out everybody till next Tuesday.

00:03:04:11 - 00:03:10:20
Kevin Eikenberry
The whatever day that will be like the 24th of September. Is that right? I have the my map right there. Yeah.

00:03:10:23 - 00:03:12:00
Erin Wade
Yep. So just a few.

00:03:12:02 - 00:03:22:16
Kevin Eikenberry
And so everybody I have a copy of this book. It's what's called an advanced readers edition, an arc. And get this, Aaron doesn't even have one of these.

00:03:22:17 - 00:03:23:05
Erin Wade
It's true.

00:03:23:05 - 00:03:43:11
Kevin Eikenberry
And I've already read it. Yeah. And so guess what? I'm going to give it away at the end of today's session. My copy is going away with all my notes in it or my stickies and all that stuff. Someone's going to get it. And and the reason this is the mac and cheese session is because Aaron Wade is the mac and cheese millionaire, if you can see it by reading the book backwards.

00:03:43:13 - 00:04:04:14
Kevin Eikenberry
Aaron Wade is a bestselling author, chef, entrepreneur. She opened a wildly popular restaurant called Home Room, which has been covered everywhere from the Cooking Channel to the Wall Street Journal. And they serve mac and cheese. Just say it. She authored the bestselling The Mac and Cheese Cookbook, as well as the viral op ed in the Washington Post, which we'll get to.

00:04:04:19 - 00:04:25:22
Kevin Eikenberry
That was named one of the publication's best of the year. Her work on business culture has been covered in Forbes and The New York Times, and she was named one of 35 World Changing Women by Conscious Company magazine. She has a degree in public policy from Princeton, a law degree from UC Berkeley. She lives in the Bay area with her family and an array of surfboards.

00:04:25:23 - 00:04:36:23
Kevin Eikenberry
So for all of you that were here earlier, I am not the only person with a strange collecting hobby. Aaron. Welcome. I'm so glad you're here.

00:04:37:01 - 00:04:40:06
Erin Wade
Yeah. Thanks so much for having me. And thanks, everyone, for coming today.

00:04:40:08 - 00:05:04:07
Kevin Eikenberry
All right. So, yes. We're going to talk about mac and cheese, but we're gonna talk about a lot more. So this book, everybody is one of the most entertaining books I've read this year. And and it reads like fiction, and it's it's just a delight to read. And there's all sorts of wonderful nuggets in it as well.

00:05:04:09 - 00:05:17:00
Kevin Eikenberry
So tell us about the journey. Like the bio says a little bit about who you are, and where you came from. But like, how do we end up doing this stuff?

00:05:17:01 - 00:05:39:21
Erin Wade
Yeah. So, I mean, I guess a little bit of an overview is, you know, I had been a very, unhappy corporate lawyer with a, crazy idea of opening a mac and cheese restaurant. But I think you know what the book is really about just as much as sort of an entrepreneurial, you know, journey from, you know, what it's like to start something.

00:05:39:23 - 00:06:08:22
Erin Wade
More than anything, I really just had not enjoyed working, which just felt really sad to me. I had not enjoyed workplaces that I'd been in. So, I wanted to create a place that I would find a lot of joy coming to work, and I really wanted other people to feel that way as well. So the book is really about sort of this, you know, decade long personal odyssey to be like, you know, how do you create an amazing place to come to work that means something to people and through like a lot of trial and error.

00:06:08:22 - 00:06:28:02
Erin Wade
And, you know, as you said, funny stories like, I've never quite understood why the business genre is so dry because frankly, some of the things we do and some of the things that happen are sort of ridiculous or funny. And, so, you know, what are the lessons I learned along the way and how can other people implement it in their own career, their own life, their own company?

00:06:28:04 - 00:06:34:08
Erin Wade
And that was really the goal is to magnify the impact of all these really unique things that we developed over a decade.

00:06:34:10 - 00:06:50:02
Kevin Eikenberry
Some really there are some amazing stories. So probably we'll probably get to a few of them before we're done. So, law mac and cheese, right? In the book, you tell us the story about how you get there. Well, let's just start here. Why mac and cheese?

00:06:50:04 - 00:06:50:19
Erin Wade
So?

00:06:50:21 - 00:06:55:10
Kevin Eikenberry
So just why restaurant, right. It's why. Mac and cheese.

00:06:55:12 - 00:07:20:06
Erin Wade
Well, you know, so I was coming home one night. Working as a very disgruntled, corporate attorney. It was raining. I was, just in a bad mood, and I was craving a bowl of mac and cheese. And I live in Oakland, California, which is a major urban center. And I realized there's no restaurant I could go to that, that had a really delicious version, which felt crazy to me.

00:07:20:06 - 00:07:40:13
Erin Wade
So I whipped out my dad's, recipe. I got all the ingredients, I made it, and as I was eating it, I thought to myself, wow. Like, why is there no mac and cheese restaurant? There's pizza restaurants, there's burger restaurants. Like, why is there no place I can go tonight for mac and cheese? And I thought this restaurant should exist and I should be the person to start it.

00:07:40:13 - 00:07:52:10
Erin Wade
And then, thankfully, I was fired a few months later, and that idea was sort of percolating in my head, and I decided to sort of go forth and make it happen.

00:07:52:12 - 00:08:01:10
Kevin Eikenberry
And I think you say in the book, if I remember right, that, your dad's mac and cheese is one of the very best, right? This is what it is.

00:08:01:12 - 00:08:06:00
Erin Wade
I don't know if one of I think it is truly is the best I've ever had.

00:08:06:02 - 00:08:09:03
Kevin Eikenberry
And that's what you replicated when you started, right?

00:08:09:05 - 00:08:26:10
Erin Wade
Totally. And you know, you just do it differently, right? When that is the thing you're doing, like mac and cheese. Up to that point, I'd only ever seen it relegated to, like, side dish status. You know, where it sits in a pot and, you know, maybe someone scoops it out and, it's been sitting there for a long time.

00:08:26:10 - 00:08:53:00
Erin Wade
Maybe it's grainy, maybe it's soggy. You know, so we're really committed to making each one to order. And with a quarter pound of cheese and, you know, making it fresh and with real ingredients and having that just really be the star. And, so, you know, that's sort of the story behind the food. But to be honest, there was also, you know, it's like a less glamorous story, but a real like, business reason for mac and cheese, which is I had also, before I ever became a lawyer, worked.

00:08:53:02 - 00:09:09:18
Erin Wade
I'd actually worked in fine dining restaurants, and it was very dead end, and I didn't see a future there, which is sort of why I detoured into into law. And also I felt so compelled to build a great restaurant company because I felt like I wanted to give other people the future that I had not sort of seen for myself in the industry.

00:09:09:19 - 00:09:32:02
Erin Wade
But, you know, practically speaking, I just thought, you know, this is a great food that I could teach, like every day, people to make it the best that you'd ever had. And I thought that was going to be really critical to it being successful is not having to have a chef in the kitchen to make it incredible, but just everyday people could learn how to make it and have it still be the best mac and cheese you've ever eaten.

00:09:32:04 - 00:09:56:18
Kevin Eikenberry
And and you do a job early in the book about working in those fine dining establishments. And you do talk about the frustration there, but so so you got you didn't just say it like there's a lot of people in the world. You've heard these stories more often than me that say, I want to start a restaurant, but you had done your homework, you'd worked in restaurants, you'd figured out what worked, and a lot of what didn't work.

00:09:56:20 - 00:10:06:17
Kevin Eikenberry
Then you had dad's mac and cheese. So you had this a business opportunity. But when you searched, oh, I'm just imagining you. You, doing a web search in Oakland.

00:10:06:22 - 00:10:08:03
Erin Wade
For a.

00:10:08:05 - 00:10:19:22
Kevin Eikenberry
Year, right? So, so, like, if we want to just start from a basic business perspective, you had prepared yourself, even though, you know, you think public policy and a law degree isn't doesn't necessarily prepare me for that, is that. Yeah.

00:10:20:00 - 00:10:48:16
Erin Wade
Yeah. I mean, you know, and that's definitely some advice that I give people, you know, I always speak to people sort of at different phases in their career or their entrepreneurial journey. And I do think restaurant is like a very sexy thing that people are like, oh my God, I want to do it. And I always think if you're if you're thinking of making the leap into something, the best thing to do is just to go work in it for free for someone else for a period of time, because there's nothing like actually doing the job that you think you might want to have.

00:10:48:16 - 00:11:11:20
Erin Wade
And I can tell you that restaurants are, like, vastly less glamorous than people you know, think they might be. So yeah, I think, you know, as much as it seems like this huge leap from LA to restaurants, it really for me it was more of a homecoming. Like I had really tried to find my way there for a while, couldn't, and realized if I wanted to have a good job in the industry, I was basically going to have to make it for myself.

00:11:11:20 - 00:11:34:11
Erin Wade
But I did. So being pretty educated about, you know, what it meant to work for someone else. And, and really, I use those tools and lessons to also like, build them into being successful. You know, like, I, had worked in all these fine dining restaurants. And I thought to myself, you know, there's no reason that, a casual restaurant can't have fabulous, like, world class design and service.

00:11:34:11 - 00:12:07:06
Erin Wade
Those things do not cost more money, but create tremendous additional value. And so whenever people like many, many people, have tried to replicate home run success, like our financials are in the top, you know, 1% of restaurants. And, so far as I know, all the competitors don't do remotely as well. And I mean, in part, it's it's, you know, all the things we do with our people, which I write about in the book, but it also, frankly, is creating this, like, world class experience that is inexpensive because it doesn't cost more, but you need to care more to create it.

00:12:07:08 - 00:12:16:18
Kevin Eikenberry
Love that. So I think we're inching toward my next question, which is what? What would you say, Erin, is your leadership philosophy.

00:12:16:20 - 00:12:44:03
Erin Wade
So I would say I really focus on, three things. It is like, connection, collaboration and collective success. And I could talk through all of them and what that actually means or sound like. They could just like be buzzwords, but they actually mean like very tangible things to me, which is, you know, I really think of, you know, building a business, just creating a great team that's just trying to play a game.

00:12:44:03 - 00:13:04:04
Erin Wade
And so to really be great at that, you know, you need to be connected. You need to have systems to collaborate, and you need to care about the success of something bigger than yourself. So those are really the three things I sort of outline in the book and talk about. And yeah. And give some specific tools that I think also really help achieve that versus just talk about it.

00:13:04:06 - 00:13:22:08
Kevin Eikenberry
You write in the book, I'm not going to say, hey, what did you say on page 105? I am going to say I, you at the time, but I have come to understand that part of the secret sauce of building a great organization is a dedication to connection at all levels. And so we can talk more about that.

00:13:22:08 - 00:13:39:18
Kevin Eikenberry
We can talk, about about the three seasons. We will a little bit more before we're done. But now I need to ask you a really serious question. You told us in the book, or you told me in the book when I read the book that, you faked playing the violin for an entire school year.

00:13:39:19 - 00:13:40:04
Erin Wade
Yeah.

00:13:40:04 - 00:13:47:12
Kevin Eikenberry
Because how how does this happen? And why did you do it?

00:13:47:14 - 00:14:06:23
Erin Wade
So, yeah, I have this chapter is basically the concept of sort of like fake it till you make it. And, so every the book is structured such that every chapter begins with a theme that's really rooted in like a childhood memory and usually sort of a ridiculous story. And, that.

00:14:07:01 - 00:14:24:15
Erin Wade
Play out through the lens of the restaurant, through the journey of the restaurant. So, in this case, it was. Yeah, I attended this large public school, and I missed the first few lessons of the violin. And so I show up to this big group class, and, I'm too embarrassed to tell anyone. I don't know what I'm doing.

00:14:24:15 - 00:14:41:08
Erin Wade
And so I just start, air playing the violin. Just, like, not touching the bow to the strings. And, you know, no one notices the whole year. And then it comes time to do these, like, end of the year evaluations. And I'm just sweating. I'm so stressed and I'm like, I'm going to be found out is the fraud that I am.

00:14:41:09 - 00:15:01:02
Erin Wade
I kind of know what I'm going to tell my parents, but they tested people in groups of five, and I had gotten so adept at playing, like the air violin that I actually was invited to join the orchestra the following year. So, you know, my parents thought I was like, this phenom. Like they've never seen me practice. And yet I'm like, you know, being promoted to the orchestra.

00:15:01:04 - 00:15:30:16
Erin Wade
And, anyway, yeah, I mean, and the, you know, sort of connection to, I guess, like my journey with homeroom and, and restaurants is, I mean, I don't suggest faking it to make it in that regard, but just like, you know, I got to join orchestra. And just by virtue of showing up and playing the violin, you know, and I did not know what I was doing, and, but I do think that is how I got to learn with restaurants.

00:15:30:16 - 00:15:40:04
Erin Wade
I never went to culinary school. I just showed up and I didn't know what I was doing, and I worked for people for free. And I did eventually learn on, like, the violin and, and it opened.

00:15:40:10 - 00:15:42:04
Kevin Eikenberry
And you actually worked, right?

00:15:42:04 - 00:15:59:16
Erin Wade
Yes. I showed up and I actually worked and I and I did stuff, but I think we're often really afraid to just show up and look stupid. Or we are, like, waiting for, you know, oh, I have to apply for this program or I need to get a degree or like, I think we just like, over invest very early before we know if something's, like, actually going to be a good fit.

00:15:59:16 - 00:16:22:03
Erin Wade
And so, you know, my advice was like, it's okay to just be the dumbest person in the room for a while. Like, you can, you know, get a great education that way. I think a better I mean, I'm very educated. I went to Princeton. I have a law degree. I had nothing against traditional education. But I think some of the best lessons I've learned have been by just really putting myself out there and trying something, you know, and and seeing how it feels.

00:16:22:04 - 00:16:42:01
Kevin Eikenberry
I love that, I did read the book several weeks ago because in preparation for our first conversation and one of the notes that I made that I'm going to bring back to the fore and, and I haven't had the chance to go back and find all of my reasons why. But I do remember having this thought when I read it that it seems to me want to.

00:16:42:03 - 00:16:54:19
Kevin Eikenberry
So I'm going to say this it's positive feedback and then you can respond to it. How you however you'd wish, right? Someone wants to be a chef. Phoebe wants to be a chef to,

00:16:54:21 - 00:16:55:18
Erin Wade
Oh, nice.

00:16:55:20 - 00:17:12:13
Kevin Eikenberry
Okay. It seems to me here's what I wrote. It seems to me that one of your great strengths is reflecting and listening to yourself. Number one, do you agree? And if you agree, what advice would you give to us about that?

00:17:12:15 - 00:17:34:10
Erin Wade
That's a great question. I'm going to, like, write that on a piece of paper and, like, stick it on my wall or something. As, like a North Star. I think that's what I'd like to do. I think, you know, I don't I don't always do it. And those are some of the bigger mistakes I've made in my life or when I haven't listened to myself and I've listened to, you know, sort of other people's voices or, opinions.

00:17:34:10 - 00:17:50:14
Erin Wade
But, yeah, I do think that that's the thing that I find sort of recentering, advice I'd have on how to do it. I mean, I do talk in the book. I do think other people's voices, sort of society's voices are, are very loud. I mean, I talk about that is the reason I had become a lawyer.

00:17:50:14 - 00:18:11:16
Erin Wade
I just I was looking for like, affirmation, something that was going to look impressive. But I think more than anything, I think we don't have we're not taught, you know, what happens in your career if there's not a clear path, right? You know, school is very much set up where someone gives you a way to be successful, you send it back to them and then you get a good grade and.

00:18:11:18 - 00:18:12:05
Kevin Eikenberry
The game to.

00:18:12:05 - 00:18:12:17
Erin Wade
Play and.

00:18:12:19 - 00:18:14:04
Kevin Eikenberry
Figure out how to play the game.

00:18:14:04 - 00:18:37:00
Erin Wade
Right? Totally. Totally. But I think, you know, for most of us, like, life is not like that. It's not linear, you know, and, a career is certainly not linear like that. Most people's I think if it's going to be dynamic and successful and fulfilling. Right. And so I think it can get really tempting to like, not listen to yourself and just follow what feels comfortable because it's just too scary to.

00:18:37:00 - 00:19:01:14
Erin Wade
And we don't we haven't been trained to, you know, to sit in discomfort of experimenting or failing. And so yeah, I do think I try to, consistently come back to that in the times I have come back to it, have not only been personally meaningful, they've been really financially successful for me, too, because I think it's so rare for people to truly follow passion that when you do, I think it's infectious.

00:19:01:14 - 00:19:28:19
Erin Wade
Like people want to join you on that journey. They want to buy whatever you're selling that you're passionate about, like, I think passion is infectious. And so it's not just a key to, yeah, like personal fulfillment. It's a key to financial success. And I guess lastly, what I'd say in terms of ways that I actually tangibly do, that I think it's finding something that you do that is just for you, that really puts you in touch with yourself on a consistent basis.

00:19:28:21 - 00:19:47:10
Erin Wade
So for me at surfing, I find that very meditative. For other people, it could it could be whatever. It could be, you know, a sport, it could be, a hobby. But I think finding something that is really just for you, that is reflective is, is an important practice to have.

00:19:47:12 - 00:20:08:06
Kevin Eikenberry
You know, one of my observations and one of my beliefs in life is that, you know, in every, in every negative thing, there are positive things to find. And certainly the pandemic had all sorts of negative things associated with it, for sure. But I think one of and I think there are also many positive things that came from and happened as a result of the pandemic.

00:20:08:07 - 00:20:35:14
Kevin Eikenberry
And one of them, I think, is that many people did that. Many people took that advice before. You just and they and they found that and they went back to that. And, you know, I think those so just in the chat yes or no. Yes. If, if, if you reconnected with a hobby, found a hobby, did something that helped to create what Erin saying for you that you did sort of during the pandemic when you didn't have anything else to do.

00:20:35:18 - 00:20:48:00
Kevin Eikenberry
Right. I just be curious. I bet you're going to find a bunch of yeses over there. And so my hope then, is that people continue to do that right. And you you tell in the book about when you started surfing and, and how you continue to surf, etc., right?

00:20:48:00 - 00:21:06:19
Erin Wade
Yeah. And you know, and something that I like encourage people to do. I don't know if this is helpful and not all of us have like the benefit of being able to do this or like being our own boss. But I actually used to be quite shy about it. Like when I got really into surfing, I would, I frankly lie to my team about like where I was going because I would just be off grid.

00:21:06:19 - 00:21:14:01
Erin Wade
I'd be like, I have to take a kid to a, you know, a doctor's appointment or whatever, because I felt like to. Why do you have so.

00:21:14:01 - 00:21:17:20
Kevin Eikenberry
Many doctors appointments there?

00:21:17:22 - 00:21:35:03
Erin Wade
Because I felt like, you know, I should be available for my work meetings or I. You know, I didn't know how to tell people I was surfing. And eventually I decided to just tell the truth and, you know, say, hey, I actually I make time for this every week, and it's important time. And even if something big is blowing up at work, I'm actually not going to schedule over it.

00:21:35:05 - 00:21:56:07
Erin Wade
And I want you to do the same, because I think this makes us better people, better at our jobs. And I realized that, like, I was trying to create this utopian workplace, that I'd want people to make those kind of decisions, but that I wasn't really modeling that kind of distance myself, you know? And so, yeah, I think, I think making that time is like, just critical to your success.

00:21:56:07 - 00:22:05:23
Erin Wade
So if you work for someone who will give that kind of space to you, or if you're a leader who can, you know, create that, I think it's so important.

00:22:06:01 - 00:22:24:13
Kevin Eikenberry
There's a question that's come in from Stacy. That's not it's not that directly, but it's connected to what you just said there. I'm just going to put it up on the screen and I'll read it, and then I'll respond to whatever you want. There's a certain amount of privilege required to show up and work for free. You can't do that if you don't have the ability, and you also have the ability to have a place to live, etc..

00:22:24:13 - 00:22:32:22
Kevin Eikenberry
What advice do you have? If you don't have that ability to just show up and work for free?

00:22:33:00 - 00:22:50:06
Erin Wade
Sure. I mean, I think that is correct. There just is a certain amount of privilege. I think the reason I recommend it is because it still takes less privilege than paying for a very expensive degree, which I know even more people don't do. And I, I certainly also have worked with a lot of folks that get a degree without that experience.

00:22:50:06 - 00:23:06:03
Erin Wade
And then they're like, oh, shoot, I don't like this. And then they have debt for the rest of their lives. So I think compared to a degree, it's a low cost way to get some experience because it does take your time, but at least it doesn't also take your money. But I think, you know, it's eking out whatever time you can have.

00:23:06:03 - 00:23:23:00
Erin Wade
You know, I don't write about it in the book, but I did, you know, also, I tried starting out really small, inexpensive businesses in my free time to see if I like it, like I had started a, you know, small this when I was working as a lawyer. So, like, trust me, I really didn't have time. But, you know, I do this occasionally.

00:23:23:00 - 00:23:45:14
Erin Wade
I just like, tried launching like a wedding baking business because those would be just fixed events that I could sort of plan for and just be like, oh, you know, this, this experience will basically pay me to see if I like this. Right. And I just, I did, you know, big treats for a few weddings and that did take some time, but I did get paid for it.

00:23:45:14 - 00:24:01:18
Erin Wade
And I learned, oh, I don't want to do this, but I'm, I'm certainly grateful that that I tried. So, Yeah, I think sometimes it means getting creative. And I also think sometimes for, you know, some folks it's just also not realistic. Maybe you're in a place or a moment in your life that it's not the time to try new stuff.

00:24:01:18 - 00:24:18:09
Erin Wade
It's the time to, like, get your kids to school and pay your bills and, you know, put your head down. And I think, I think, you know, I hope we all get to write different chapters of our lives, and they're not all going to look the same, and they're all going to have different opportunities that, you know, and space that we can make.

00:24:18:11 - 00:24:32:11
Kevin Eikenberry
So the next question comes from one of my coauthors, who presumes that you're going to have had context for this, but I'll let you decide. If you do, I would not, what does the bear get right? And wrong about the restaurant business? And do you like it or does it make you crazy?

00:24:32:13 - 00:24:55:14
Erin Wade
Well, when I love that show, I'm obsessed with the bear, just like everyone else. So I'm so glad that you asked. I mean, honestly, that show is so accurate that, like, when I first turned it on, the frenetic pace was so accurate, like, give me like PTSD for my, you know, days of working in restaurants where I was like, this is a little to, like, you know, close to reality.

00:24:55:14 - 00:25:03:10
Erin Wade
So, honestly, I think it's an exceptionally well done, done show and very, very true to life.

00:25:03:12 - 00:25:28:23
Kevin Eikenberry
See? There you go. You've said several things here. You talked about wanting to create this wonderful place to work, and that was one of the things that drove you. You've talked a lot about culture without using that word. It's another key word, I suppose. But what are what thoughts do you have about our role as leaders in creating culture and what we're maybe a couple of key things you were trying to create at home room.

00:25:29:01 - 00:25:59:01
Erin Wade
Yeah. So, you know, I'd say like sort of the core like, sort of story behind the journey is that I thought, you know, I understood that a lot of workplaces why I didn't like them is they're based on a lot of outdated principles. I thought of, you know, how to do something which were very controlling. And I thought, like, okay, I really want to create things that give people like systems that create more autonomy, more trust, more pride in what you're doing.

00:25:59:03 - 00:26:20:13
Erin Wade
Which I think comes from autonomy and trust and not not being feeling controlled. But the truth is, I didn't know how to do that. And, you know, an analogy that, that I use in the book that I think is a little helpful is, you know, I mean, I started from one dystopia, which was working for other people that had been quite controlling, quite toxic.

00:26:20:13 - 00:26:47:04
Erin Wade
But then I really created my own dystopia at first by giving people, like, way too much freedom and a complete lack of guidance. And it turns out like the opposite of, you know, command and control is like, no good either, you know? And, so I started to realize that actually, my key as a leader, I compare it to, you know, are you handing someone a blank sheet of paper, a paint by number or a coloring book?

00:26:47:04 - 00:27:09:23
Erin Wade
And what I mean by that is a paint by number is going to look the same no matter who does it. Right? It's the same colors in the same place, the same picture, a piece of paper. People are going to draw all sorts of different things. It's always going to look really different. But a coloring book, you have the same outline, but everyone's going to use different colors, so you're going to see the same picture, but it's going to come to life in different ways.

00:27:09:23 - 00:27:26:02
Erin Wade
And I think time and again, what I learned is like my goal as a leader is to create the coloring book. What is the right structure within which I'm giving people freedom to express themselves? And I think I would ask myself that question time again, and I can give you a lot of examples of how that kind of stuff played out.

00:27:26:04 - 00:27:45:05
Kevin Eikenberry
You you just use two words in that, in that whole story. And people are writing down blank page, white white sheet of paper. You said at the very start of that, when I ask about culture, the first word you said was systems and the last word you said or structure. And I think that's what's often missing. Right?

00:27:45:05 - 00:27:46:23
Erin Wade
Like, yes, totally.

00:27:47:01 - 00:28:09:06
Kevin Eikenberry
I want people to be trustworthy. I want to trust them. Yeah, but but we as leaders have to put stuff with that. We have to put around that in the book, I believe. And you can correct me if I'm wrong. But I believe you. You use the word boundaries, or at least that's one of the words that I'm remembering connected, like and put some guardrails and some boundaries, some systems around some of these things.

00:28:09:06 - 00:28:19:23
Kevin Eikenberry
Because when you said people to people do whatever you want, like that didn't like you said that didn't work. Yeah. What else do you want to say? You said yes when I said systems. What do you want to add to that?

00:28:20:01 - 00:28:40:22
Erin Wade
Yeah. I mean, I think just my experience is that when people talk about culture is this very woo concept, it doesn't mean a lot. And I think without systems and structures that really help, like codify it, teach it, promote for it, you know, I think it's the systems and structure that make those concepts really come to life.

00:28:40:23 - 00:28:58:12
Erin Wade
You know? So, I mean, there's a silly example, but I think it'll, you know, resonate with people because we've all eaten in restaurants. But, you know, for example, when we were coming up with our service standards, like lots of restaurants have scripts, right? You go to McDonald's, they're going to ask, do you want fries with that? Right.

00:28:58:14 - 00:29:16:09
Erin Wade
Like there's a something that every single person is going to say. It's the equivalent of the paint by number, right? It's the same no matter who's working or it's intended to be. For a while at home room, we tried the blank page and I can tell you it was a disaster. People. I couldn't even figure out who worked there because no one was, like, wearing the same stuff.

00:29:16:12 - 00:29:38:12
Erin Wade
I just it was not a professional environment, right? Because there was no standards. So eventually we did is, you know, and this point about like, connecting, collaborating with people, we had a lot of systems to get feedback from our staff. And so as I was working on creating these service standards, took a, you know, page from the playbook of one of our best servers.

00:29:38:12 - 00:29:57:15
Erin Wade
I was like, hey, how do you create this? You're exceptional at your job. Like, what do you use? And he explained that he gave himself this challenge. It was like he called it like the smoke out rule. And he knew that he could he could provide like good service to everyone, you know, every day. But we serve, you know, thousands and thousands of people a week.

00:29:57:17 - 00:30:17:01
Erin Wade
So he would really focus on for every hour of his shift, you know, he's there for five hours. He would try to stoke out one table so that it would be the best experience that they had had in a restaurant, like all year, maybe their whole life, you know, and he followed up on it. I mean, he did just like wild and crazy stuff for, for folks.

00:30:17:01 - 00:30:33:23
Erin Wade
And I realize, oh, that is perfect. That is, that's the coloring book. So we started articulating the stock out rule. And so we would tell people who are servers, we're like, hey, we're going to give you complete autonomy and freedom. You're welcome to give away free food. You're welcome to you know, whatever way you want to do this, you can.

00:30:34:01 - 00:30:53:11
Erin Wade
But, we expect for you to stoke out five tables a shift. So make it that this is the most memorable experience of their dining life, you know? And people are so creative. You know, their their coloring books really did all look so different. Some people would like singing to people, you know, they'd put together like little skits.

00:30:53:11 - 00:31:11:00
Erin Wade
They'd like, draw in condiments on their mac and cheese, little messages to them, you know, make them art work. I mean, it's just like people are so creative. But I think that ability to feel trusted, and to have a challenge and to be expected to, like, live, you know, our, our mission was to be the best part of people's day.

00:31:11:02 - 00:31:22:06
Erin Wade
They absolutely were. But I wasn't telling them, here's how to be the best part of someone's day. They got to decide for themselves. And I think that's the fun, the creativity, the joy. Like, that's what makes, something worth doing.

00:31:22:08 - 00:31:44:20
Kevin Eikenberry
I love that I need to make a administrative comment to everyone. It appears to those on our team anyway, that that chat message. Oh, oh, maybe they come. There we go. So we were worried that we were worried that the chat wasn't working, but appears it is okay. Cool. Awesome. Glad that it's working. We've had a little bit of problems with our with our our loving crowdcast today.

00:31:44:20 - 00:32:05:14
Kevin Eikenberry
I just want to make sure we're cool. So some, some some chats might have gotten lost, but it appears we're back and it makes me happy. So there we go. So, I want, you know, I mentioned in that opening and opening that you wrote an article that was in the Washington Post. It was one of the best of the year and ends up talking about something called the color code.

00:32:05:15 - 00:32:21:06
Kevin Eikenberry
And so I'd like you to, if you would tell us, could you tell us that story? Because it leads I mean, the story is really fascinating and I think is really helpful, especially since our next section is going to be about inclusive leadership, which makes it maybe more meaningful.

00:32:21:08 - 00:32:21:22
Erin Wade
Yeah.

00:32:21:23 - 00:32:28:02
Kevin Eikenberry
Tell us that story and then give us where you landed, because I think it's really, really useful.

00:32:28:04 - 00:32:58:11
Erin Wade
Sure. So, you know, I'm really proud that we do, you know, had a lot of systems for getting staff involved, in the restaurant. And, you know, so I thought I was, like, living my dream. And, this was around. Gosh. Yeah. Like, the restaurant had been open maybe 6 or 7 years at this point. And, one day I get, emails from a bunch of, you know, female staff members saying they need to speak to me, and I have no idea what it's about.

00:32:58:11 - 00:33:21:08
Erin Wade
But as they come forward, it turns out that, one woman had gotten, like, quite, just, sexually harassed. It was a host. Someone had actually stuck their hand up her shirt. It was pretty egregious. And, what happened is all this female service started getting together and realizing they all had stories. Not maybe that bad, but like that.

00:33:21:08 - 00:33:39:18
Erin Wade
And and that it was a problem that needed to be addressed. And so, we do have a lot of systems for, like, bringing problems to the front. But I think something I'm also really proud of is we also have systems for everyone solving them, like, you can't just it's not like, okay, here's the problem. Now leaders go fix it.

00:33:39:18 - 00:34:01:04
Erin Wade
For me, that's a very paternal working relationship, but very much how many companies are structured so we set up a meeting for anyone who wanted to attend to just talk about this problem and start brainstorming solutions to it, you know, and it's a pretty big problem. You know, like 1 in 10 Americans works in restaurants, 70% reports experiencing some form of harassment.

00:34:01:04 - 00:34:24:17
Erin Wade
I mean, it's a huge number of people. So, you know, this is a pretty entrenched problem in the industry. But we got together and we started experimenting with some different, some different things. And we end up coming up with this solution that, was incredibly effective. And I'll tell you what, if you know how it works. But I ended up writing a viral piece in the, Washington Post about it.

00:34:24:17 - 00:34:45:00
Erin Wade
I ended up getting invited to speak in front of the United States EEOC. They did a task force on harassment they adopted as a best practice. But, you know, I'm so proud of it because I think, you know, if people if other organizations can use a lot of the tools in the book, like I really do wonder, like what kind of solutions can we come up with if we had a truly engaged workforce?

00:34:45:02 - 00:35:03:14
Erin Wade
Because this, you know, we're just a small restaurant and came up with a system that's now used truly in restaurants all around the globe and affects, you know, has improved the lives of, like, millions of people. So, I think similar solutions are like hiding in plain sight in other places. If only we engage people. I'm happy to tell folks.

00:35:03:17 - 00:35:05:23
Erin Wade
What. Yeah, sure.

00:35:06:01 - 00:35:16:16
Kevin Eikenberry
What she did was she asked them to help solve the problem. It's not even hard. We just have to do it.

00:35:16:18 - 00:35:38:02
Erin Wade
Fair. It's true, it's true. But, you know, I think I think what we meant, a you have to ask. You have to create the conditions for people. That's part of your culture. Right? So it has to again, there has to be expectation that, you know, rules. But I think also a lot of leaders have to be willing to, like, share power, which not everyone wants to do.

00:35:38:02 - 00:36:07:04
Erin Wade
Like I found that a very joyful exercise. So for others that might feel that way too, you know, but, some people really like thinking that they know all the, all the answers. So it's tough. But, yeah, I think the system is worth sharing because it's very it's very simple but very effective. And I do think people can leverage this into all sorts of workplaces, but, basically what we're having an issue, what we did is, came up with this color coded system, yellow, orange and red.

00:36:07:04 - 00:36:30:07
Erin Wade
And a yellow is nothing more than just a bad vibe. And if it happened, a staff member would report it to a manager, and it was their choice. What would happen? They could just report it, or the manager could take over the table. An orange would be, you know, a creepy vibe, plus an ambiguous comment. So maybe something like, I like your shirt, depending on who's saying it, if it's like a, you know, adorable little kid, you won't feel threatened.

00:36:30:07 - 00:36:48:23
Erin Wade
But if it's someone who's been, like, leering at you, you might feel like, oh gosh, like what's about to happen here? You know? And in that case, you would just say, hey, I've got an orange at, you know, table two in the manager's required to take it over, just no questions asked. And then a red is, you know, like, sexually explicit language or touching.

00:36:48:23 - 00:37:08:12
Erin Wade
So, like, you look sexy in that shirt or touching someone. In that case, you just report the red and the manager is required to ask the person to leave. So what's really cool about it is it's very quick and effective. You know, you're not sitting there like telling stories on the, you know, like in a busy place. People don't know what's being used on them.

00:37:08:12 - 00:37:33:17
Erin Wade
So it's, you know, it's I think it's very like pro customer as well. But it was actually amazingly effective at curbing the worst forms of harassment, which honestly came as a surprise to us, because very few people just walk into a restaurant and stick their hand up someone's shirt. What they do is they sort of start checking them out, and then they use, like, you know, low level inappropriate comments and see how, they're tolerated.

00:37:33:17 - 00:37:53:07
Erin Wade
And then they keep escalating their behavior. And so because we would change these power dynamics at a really low level, we just actually pretty much stop seeing these like red incidents happen. They became very, very rare. So, I mean, it is really it's easy to use it's simple. It's really effective. And, you know, like I said, I think it's really made a difference.

00:37:53:07 - 00:38:10:23
Erin Wade
And I think even if you don't have a customer facing business, I think even just having the language of those colors also even just helped us internally be able to talk about harassment, because you know, like I did have staff, I was coaching. Feel like I feel like this is maybe an orange situation that I've got going on.

00:38:10:23 - 00:38:18:22
Erin Wade
And, you know, it just gives you, I think, a language and a structure to talk about the things that happen that make us uncomfortable and, you know, some ideas for how to deal with that.

00:38:19:00 - 00:38:32:18
Kevin Eikenberry
I love that. Thank you for sharing. It's one of the many things you'll get when you get your copy of this book next week. When it comes out, the mac and cheese millionaire, one of you is going to get it. When this episode is over. Adrian is going to give me some names and one of you is going to get this book.

00:38:32:18 - 00:38:48:06
Kevin Eikenberry
If you can pick who's going to get it, give it to me in the slack, and I will do that in a few minutes. We got a little time left, so but for all of you that are watching this, listening to this on the podcast, go get you. Grab his book, do yourself a favor. You're going to enjoy it and you're going to learn an immense amount, just like I think that you will have gotten from this conversation.

00:38:48:06 - 00:38:58:18
Kevin Eikenberry
So, I want to know if there's anything you thought I would ask, or you wish I would have asked, that I haven't.

00:38:58:19 - 00:39:15:03
Erin Wade
Well, you know, I think, there is a topic in the book that I think is really effective as, like a workplace tool, but also as a life tool. That has been really helpful for me. So I'd love to chat about, the idea of, like, restorative discipline that we talk about in the book.

00:39:15:05 - 00:39:16:14
Kevin Eikenberry
Yep. Go ahead.

00:39:16:16 - 00:39:38:23
Erin Wade
So, you know, like I said, a lot of the concepts in the book is really just like, how do you create a place that's filled with, you know, like meaning, purpose, connection, collective success? Right. And I think one of the biggest problems that we all have, I don't care if you're a parent, you're an executive, you're a, you know, an owner of a business is like, what do you do when people screw up, right.

00:39:39:01 - 00:39:59:06
Erin Wade
What do you do, when they make mistakes and how do we handle it? And, you know, I saw that the systems that existed were just really, again, like, antiquated. Usually we just punish people, you know? Which I don't know about you, but I have not found it to be effective. And in plenty of context, it's not that great with it.

00:39:59:06 - 00:40:22:02
Erin Wade
And it hasn't been that helpful with my kids and not very helpful at work. It was not curbing people's bad behavior. And so, I actually drew from some experience from my time as an attorney, and we started playing around with this concept of restorative justice, but in discipline at work. And so, like traditional justice is literally someone does something wrong, we punish them, right.

00:40:22:02 - 00:40:42:17
Erin Wade
We send them to prison, whatever it might be. That's the same way most workplaces work. Like if someone's late to work, you'd probably write them up or dock them a shift or whatever, right? You punish them. The idea behind restorative justice is you. You want to actually right the wrong to the extent possible. You want to try to make it better.

00:40:42:19 - 00:41:02:12
Erin Wade
And so, what we would do is instead of, you know, punishing people who just engage in it's like a three part conversation. And the first is just what happened. So like, let's say the person late, they're just like, I'm late. And, the second question is, who do you think was impacted? And, you know, a lot of times people don't get that far, right?

00:41:02:15 - 00:41:21:21
Erin Wade
Like, it and in the case of someone being late, you know, in restaurants, it means that, like, other people are having to do your work for you because we're still serving customers, right? Means as customers are probably getting crappy your service because there's like one less person there to to cook or to help them. And now the manager is wasting their time talking to you.

00:41:21:21 - 00:41:43:00
Erin Wade
Right. So there's like multiple layers of impact that are negative. And so, you know, walking through those is really helpful. And then the most important is, you know, what are you going to do to make it right? And I think again, to my point about like giving people space to use their autonomy and their creativity, that coloring book concept, like people would come up with all sorts of different ways to make it right.

00:41:43:00 - 00:42:05:23
Erin Wade
You know, sometimes they would, you know, help with others, pick up other people's side work or pick up other shifts that they need cover because they had, you know, realized they had sort of wronged their fellow coworkers. They would write themselves up to take the you know, burden off them, like having to document this for HR purposes. They would, they would go to the customer and personally apologize, be like, hey, your food might have taken longer tonight.

00:42:05:23 - 00:42:23:16
Erin Wade
It happened because I was late, you know, here's a free piece of cake on us. I mean, I think those are really special moments that never would have existed. And I think, you know, that person really thinks twice before they do that again in a way that just, you know, having written them up and punish them just never would have accomplished.

00:42:23:16 - 00:42:35:18
Erin Wade
So I think there's just so many creative solutions to like, really giving people more autonomy, freedom, connection than that. We're just really starting to explore, you know, so.

00:42:35:20 - 00:42:50:10
Kevin Eikenberry
So, one of the things I ask, almost all of my guests, I think really all of them on the podcast is this and, it's the only thing you knew I was going to ask you. And that is. What are you reading these days?

00:42:50:12 - 00:43:11:20
Erin Wade
You know, I have to say, I'm an obsessive reader of both the New Yorker and The Economist. I, I also love books, but I think those two things sort of keep me in touch with, you know, what's happening in the world, what's happening in business. And then, like, what is just some great writing from some different authors about all sorts of random topics.

00:43:11:20 - 00:43:14:02
Erin Wade
So that's probably my favorite reading right now.

00:43:14:04 - 00:43:22:08
Kevin Eikenberry
The Economist and The New Yorker now. Yeah, I can't end this without a couple of other mac and cheese things. So, I know.

00:43:22:10 - 00:43:23:12
Erin Wade
This.

00:43:23:14 - 00:43:34:12
Kevin Eikenberry
All go by the the The Mac and Cheese Cookbook. I got that, what's one tip to help us make our mac and cheese better?

00:43:34:14 - 00:43:38:19
Erin Wade
Oh, I mean, other than by my cookbook, but,

00:43:38:21 - 00:43:44:10
Kevin Eikenberry
I started there. I got, you know, we should all be doing with you.

00:43:44:12 - 00:44:04:13
Erin Wade
So I would say, here's my two pieces of advice. If you're making, like, you know, the box kind at home, add real cheese to it in addition to the powder. That's my one tip for elevating your box mac and cheese game. But if you want to make, like, the real deal, it's just like ingredients you can pronounce.

00:44:04:15 - 00:44:17:12
Erin Wade
It doesn't take a lot of time and effort seriously. It takes just about as long to make homemade mac and cheese as it does to make the box stuff. So I would say like make the real thing and try it. It's fun and it is just like 10,000 times more delicious.

00:44:17:14 - 00:44:32:20
Kevin Eikenberry
I have to. I told myself I wasn't going to do it, but I'm going to do it because, I read this to members of my team and to my wife, and this is the introduction to beginning the book, everybody. It's it's it's, reading time. I am the world's leading expert on macaroni and cheese.

00:44:32:20 - 00:44:50:19
Kevin Eikenberry
A bold claim, I realize, but it's the God's honest truth. I have personally cooked more than 10,000 mac and cheese dishes. I've grated over one metric ton of cheese, boiled thousands of pounds of pasta, and whisk. I won't read the rest. You know how it is, because I'll leave it on. So, it is like. It's amazing.

00:44:50:21 - 00:45:01:22
Kevin Eikenberry
A metric ton. Whatever. So here we go. I don't know if you know this, but this this company made an a mac and cheese ice cream. Are you familiar with the mac and cheese ice cream?

00:45:02:00 - 00:45:13:06
Erin Wade
I am, it has received a ton of press. I do think some things are better left on unmade, but, you know, kudos to them for their creativity.

00:45:13:08 - 00:45:32:10
Kevin Eikenberry
Well, we have a we have an internal. Kevin, I have a group story about that Adrian Knox on our team. If those of you were here early earlier saw her, she will be here at the end. She's in there as well. We read about it. We bought it for, we made sure that she tested it on a zoom so we could all see her kids eat.

00:45:32:12 - 00:45:37:14
Erin Wade
So. And what did what did she say? What did she say? I mean, what was her? Well, that's opinion.

00:45:37:16 - 00:45:52:00
Kevin Eikenberry
There's. So, Adrian, you can go ahead and tell you. You can put it in the chat over there. And I will say it because I know you're in. You're not reading the chat. I'll see what what she says. Yes. And what I remember is our team did the mac and cheese gummies as well. And Adrian's comment is don't knock it until you try it.

00:45:52:02 - 00:46:05:06
Kevin Eikenberry
But I will say that her great phrase at the start wasn't that awesome. She said it wasn't too bad. Okay. Where can people learn more about the book? Anything else? What do you want to point people before we start to wrap this up? Anybody? Yeah.

00:46:05:06 - 00:46:21:11
Erin Wade
I mean, you can you can buy the mac and cheese millionaire anywhere you like to buy books. It'll also be out in a few weeks in audio format. But yeah, if you want to follow my work in any way, you can check out my website at Aaron Waco. Or get in touch with me at the Aaron Wade on Social media.

00:46:21:13 - 00:46:43:23
Kevin Eikenberry
The Aaron Wade on social media. I love that. So, Aaron, I promise I is going to give away some books. So I'm assuming that Adrian. Yes, resident McKinney and his brother meet up over here. Yes, I've got that. Thank you. Lisa, I saw that, so let's see, she's got three names for me. Oh. By the way, Adrian says you'll have to.

00:46:44:00 - 00:46:48:00
Kevin Eikenberry
We'll have to agree to disagree on the box versus homemade. Just saying.

00:46:48:02 - 00:46:49:06
Erin Wade
Oh, yeah.

00:46:49:07 - 00:47:15:14
Kevin Eikenberry
So here's the thing. Nick galley is going to get this copy of this book. And Carol, so they're going to put in their what needs to happen, for you to make sure that we get you your books and for, let's see, for Carol Wilson and Alexandria Tackett, you're going to get copies of my book. I mean, you can't I can't see if you can see it right now.

00:47:15:14 - 00:47:36:19
Kevin Eikenberry
There we go. Remarkable leadership. So those are the winners. Those are the winners for this, for this session. And, Nick, like I said, you're getting this book. It's the one that I marked up. It's also the one that Aaron doesn't even have a copy of yet. So there you go. By the time you get it, it'll be out, because I won't leave here till Monday or Tuesday, so that's fine.

00:47:36:21 - 00:47:38:21
Kevin Eikenberry
Aaron, thank you so much for being here.

00:47:38:23 - 00:47:43:22
Erin Wade
Thank you and really appreciate everyone for attending and for all the thoughtful comments on the side.

00:47:44:00 - 00:48:00:12
Kevin Eikenberry
And for all of you that are watching slash listening to this later on the Remarkable Leadership Podcast. I always ask you a question, and I'm not going to end without asking that question. And that is now what what action will you take as a result of this? Obviously we would. Aaron and I would both hope that you go buy a copy of the book.

00:48:00:17 - 00:48:24:11
Kevin Eikenberry
But beyond that, what idea did Aaron share that you found to be interesting or inspiring or informative that you're going to take action on? Because if you don't take action, sort of what was the point? And so my hope for you, having listened to the Remarkable Leadership podcast or for having been here at Virtually Peter, gone, those of you and you're kind of over here to say this today, like the only thing that matters is taken action.

00:48:24:13 - 00:48:35:12
Kevin Eikenberry
And so I hope that you will take action on what you got today. Aaron, thank you for coming back and joining me. It was such a pleasure. I knew this was going to be fun and I was not disappointed.

00:48:35:14 - 00:48:37:17
Erin Wade
Thank you so much. It's been great.

00:48:37:19 - 00:48:51:22
Kevin Eikenberry
All right. So everybody, those of you on the Market Leadership podcast, we'll be back next week, another episode, you know that. Tell someone to come join us, encourage them to listen to this one for all of you in virtual con. We'll leave here and I'll see you on the other side in a minute or so. Thanks, everybody.