The Remarkable Leadership Podcast

00:00:08:14 - 00:00:39:18
Kevin Eikenberry
Culture has always been important, but is perhaps more complex and confusing now than ever. That's why this episode is so important. Prepare to be enlightened and feel more confident in your role in building a more effective culture for your team and organization. Welcome to another episode of the Remarkable Leadership Podcast, where we are helping leaders like you grow personally and professionally to lead more effectively and make a bigger difference for their teams, organizations, and the world.

00:00:39:21 - 00:00:58:02
Kevin Eikenberry
If you are listening to this podcast, you could have joined us live. Well, we can't go back for you to be live for this one, but you could join us for live episodes in the future. And to do that, you need to know where to do that when they're happening. And the best way to do that is to join either our Facebook or LinkedIn groups.

00:00:58:04 - 00:01:24:06
Kevin Eikenberry
Those aren't the only places where we run these live stream, these live, but those are two places where you can get in the know. Find out when they're coming and get involved sooner. And you can do that by going to a remarkable podcast.com/facebook or remarkable podcast.com/linkedin. Do that and you'll be in the know just a little sooner. Today's episode is brought to you by my latest book, Flexible Leadership.

00:01:24:12 - 00:01:48:22
Kevin Eikenberry
Navigate uncertainty and lead with confidence. It's time to realize that styles can get in our way, and that following our strengths might not always be the best approach in a world more complex and uncertain than ever. Leaders need a new perspective, a new set of tools to create great results for their organizations and teams. That's what we need, and that's what flexible leadership provides you.

00:01:49:03 - 00:02:19:17
Kevin Eikenberry
Learn more and order your copy today at remarkable podcast.com/flexible. Now with all of that folder all out of the way. Let's get to the meat of the matter. The heart of the matter. And I'm bringing back my guest, Jennifer Moss. Back because she's been here before. And maybe we'll talk about that before we're done. But Jennifer specializes in future focused leadership development, expertly balancing employee well-being with performance.

00:02:19:19 - 00:02:48:17
Kevin Eikenberry
And that balance is super important. As an award winning writer. An internationally acclaimed keynote speaker, she specializes in transforming workplace culture using data driven leadership strategies. Her book, The Burnout Epidemic tackled employee burnout and was among thinkers 5010 Best New Management Books of 2022, and she was on this podcast at the end of 2021. And her latest book, and what we're talking about today is Why Are we here?

00:02:48:19 - 00:02:58:12
Kevin Eikenberry
You probably asked yourself that question before why are we here creating a work culture? Everyone one Jennifer. Welcome back. I'm so glad it's over.

00:02:58:14 - 00:03:04:23
Jennifer Moss
It's so great to see you, Kevin, I love it. I love the energy. I'm really looking forward to this conversation we're going to have.

00:03:05:01 - 00:03:26:00
Kevin Eikenberry
So one of the things that you said in the beginning of the book, you said something I don't think I'd ever heard before. You called yourself a discovery writer? Yes. So what do you mean that that captured my attention. And I think it's useful as a as a construct to start this conversation. So what do you mean by that?

00:03:26:01 - 00:03:37:22
Kevin Eikenberry
So you wrote this book in 2021 that came out at the end of 2021? The the burnout epidemic. And and then you decided to write another book and what do you mean by being a discovery writer?

00:03:38:00 - 00:04:04:12
Jennifer Moss
I love that you, that you noted that because it was a label, actually, that my editor, Kevin Evers, he's just written this great book about Taylor Swift and business, and, he is someone that I work very close with. And I think he said this to be very kind to me about how often we iterate on the book, because for me, it's not just like I have a plan, he says.

00:04:04:12 - 00:04:24:06
Jennifer Moss
Some writers, you know, they have a plan, they follow that plan and that's exactly how it's executed. And he says, for me, it's really about this gut instinct that I have or this sense of, you know, predicting what I think might happen. And so then I have to prove out that hunch, or, you know, find that it's that hunch is wrong.

00:04:24:08 - 00:04:36:19
Jennifer Moss
And so that means a lot of, going down really long pathways of writing and then sometimes having to rewrite it entirely. And, and so that can be frustrating. I'm sure.

00:04:37:01 - 00:04:56:15
Kevin Eikenberry
It's frustrating to me and I, it's not even me like, I, I'm frustrated for you in that moment. And maybe your editor, too, I don't know. So so let's talk about how you ended up with this book. Right. So you spent, you wrote this great book about the burnout epidemic, and it came out at just the right time.

00:04:56:22 - 00:05:10:05
Kevin Eikenberry
And I will encourage people, but in the show notes how people can go back and find that episode. But this book is about culture. There's lots of books about culture now, but what's the journey to this book for you specifically?

00:05:10:07 - 00:05:29:17
Jennifer Moss
Well, you know, and I've written The Burnout Epidemic and had started writing about it long before the pandemic actually struck. So I did have to do a lot of rewriting for that as well, because just so much had changed. It wasn't even just that I was going on hunches, it was that everything that I had written had been fundamentally, you know, turned upside down.

00:05:29:19 - 00:05:56:17
Jennifer Moss
And, and what was really interesting in the pandemic and potentially, you know, sad as well, is that burnout became this very ubiquitous term that everyone was talking about. So the book, you know, topic was very popular. I was doing a lot of traveling, even in the middle of the pandemic and a lot of places I was traveling, and I was spending a lot of time promoting the book and talking to Uber drivers, which is kind of like, why are we here?

00:05:56:17 - 00:06:27:01
Jennifer Moss
Is like this canary in the coal mine. But what I kept hearing from people throughout the years that I was traveling in that 2021 to 2023 was, a lot of people were making these massive career pivots. And when I would ask them about it and moving to driving Ubers from it, like working on Wall Street to being in a law firm to, you know, these things that people are sort of jaw dropped at the fact that they would leave that very, sort of elite, respected, well-paid post to then be driving Uber.

00:06:27:02 - 00:07:02:00
Jennifer Moss
And they kept telling me life is short. And that statement led me to look into the science of, of facing your mortality, which is called mortality salience, and what kind of psychological triggers it actually made collectively and globally, to change our identity with work. And that was, sort of the precipitating factor in, in going into my discovery mode and figuring out, you know, are people because of this great resignation, are people choosing this because they feel like life is short?

00:07:02:02 - 00:07:14:06
Jennifer Moss
Is there a sense of urgency? Do they want to shift their thinking because of the pandemic and that's why why are we here, you know, answering an existential question of an existential time.

00:07:14:08 - 00:07:38:02
Kevin Eikenberry
In just over 200 pages, everyone. So that's, you know, if you've asked yourself that question now, you can get the answer. Now, in all seriousness, I think that that the the statement that you made a second ago is, is really important that that society, us as a whole, are viewing work differently than we did pre-pandemic.

00:07:38:02 - 00:08:06:21
Kevin Eikenberry
And ultimately, to me, that's the big story of how the pandemic has impacted work. It's not about where people are working. When people are working, those are important things. And we spend lots of time helping people unpack all of that. That's not the real story. The real story is that we we have collectively reframed what work looks like or could be for the first time in about 100, about 90 or 100 years.

00:08:06:23 - 00:08:40:06
Kevin Eikenberry
And we did it in a weekend. And the impacts are still with us. So out of all of that, you're writing about culture. And I want to get in to sort of the, the, the ideas and the stuff in the book, but I, you and I were talking before we went live about something that I think is a critical part of this, and it's throughout the book, but it's, it's this idea that all of us so often we hear about culture and people already are saying, oh, I'm going to have to try to get my CEO to listen to this conversation.

00:08:40:11 - 00:09:05:19
Kevin Eikenberry
But all of us have agency, as a leader, as an individual contributor, because culture is collectively how we do things around here. All of us have agency. So talk to us, talk to the people listening. So whisper in their ear as to why it is that they truly do have agency. And the ability to impact culture regardless of where they sit.

00:09:05:21 - 00:09:29:08
Jennifer Moss
We all have, a locus of control. So they're always going to be even at the highest levels in policy and leadership. I mean, leaders are dealing with lots of different changes in, you know, politics or weather. I mean, climate change, lots of impacts that happen at the highest level. And so even at the CEO level, there's a locus of control, things that they can't mitigate.

00:09:29:08 - 00:09:50:09
Jennifer Moss
They can't we none of us at the CEO level could be fixing a global pandemic. So you had to deal with things. And that trickles down all the way to the individual where individuals they have maybe less locus of control than the CEO, of course, but there still is a lot of things inside of their purview that they can manage.

00:09:50:11 - 00:10:10:08
Jennifer Moss
You and and I like to make a point here to say, you know, that it's a privilege to just say, no, this is not what I'm saying. If you're a single mom of three kids and you're trying to balance still staying in a job versus quitting, or just saying no to your boss, I mean, this is not the kind of practical advice that I'm offering.

00:10:10:08 - 00:10:30:10
Jennifer Moss
I'm saying that these are things like, you know, how can I have conversations with my boss about my workload in a practical way? That will and this is in the book, like, how do I actually have those conversations with them so that it's, it's the best way of managing up, you know, how can we have Gen Zers and, and Xers and Boomers have better conversations with each other?

00:10:30:10 - 00:10:58:22
Jennifer Moss
How do we have more empathy and compassion in our conversations around AI as a manager or as an individual? I mean, it's it's really about just practical steps to be able to, make your experience of work for the first little while maybe 5% better, and then over time, maybe 10% better. And having realistic objectives of how to to change the experience of work so you prevent burnout and stress and you just enjoy it a lot more.

00:10:59:00 - 00:11:18:12
Kevin Eikenberry
And oh, by the way, at the end of the day, we also get better outcomes and we get better productivity because that all those those things are all bundled together in the end. Right? So, so the book opens talking about what you call the foundation of a culture that everyone a work culture that people want. And you talk about three things there.

00:11:18:12 - 00:11:31:21
Kevin Eikenberry
I'll put them up here on the, below us. Here is hope, purpose and community. Talk to us briefly about what you mean by those three components and why they are you consider them the foundation for us to consider.

00:11:31:23 - 00:11:52:23
Jennifer Moss
Well, some of the things that have happened over the last five years is that we swung the pendulum really far in one direction, and so we have kind of reset our idea of what work is. And this to me feels like it's so ego driven that in five years we're going to have figured out this massive social experiment.

00:11:52:23 - 00:12:11:07
Jennifer Moss
I mean, the office is 500 and something years old. We can't imagine that in five years we figured out this whole experience of work thing and probably the biggest disrupter ever. And what's happened in the last five years, though, is we've lost a lot of, parts of work that are the parts that make it joyful, parts that make it fun.

00:12:11:14 - 00:12:36:08
Jennifer Moss
I always, you know, I've been saying this in the last few years. Is that going to work? Is like going to school without art, gym or recess. You know, people are just really under stimulated. They're bored. And they're also hopeless. And that's really driving a lot of people's disengagement. Gallup is calling it the great detachment because we're just disconnected.

00:12:36:10 - 00:13:08:13
Jennifer Moss
But how can you feel hopeful in an organization when you feel like you're building out technology or innovating to replace your job? How do you feel hopeful if you're, you know, a young person that has gone to school for four years and their degree is now obsolete? I mean, how do you feel hopeful when you know you have leaders that are saying things like it's about a market values culture versus, you know, familial or sort of friendly, you know, human centered cultures.

00:13:08:15 - 00:13:30:23
Jennifer Moss
That's not the kind of workforce that any young person wants to engage in. And so we need to be rebuilding the foundation of hopefulness inside of organizations, because that's how people see themselves in the future. That's how they engage, you know, in a way that's based on loyalty and connection to the mission. You know, you need people to be, you know, pulled together.

00:13:31:03 - 00:13:53:16
Jennifer Moss
They need to feel a sense of purpose and what they do. We've seen a lot of people feel like they don't matter, that that their effort is just like leading to obsolescence, or it's leading to not having a creative, engagement with their work and then friendships. I mean, you know, we blame we blame working remote and this whole hybrid work.

00:13:53:16 - 00:14:16:18
Jennifer Moss
We blame that and why there's loneliness and isolation. But I actually really strongly believe that it's time poverty. We have increased meetings by 252%. We're not actually getting time to be with each other. People are less social because they know that means they're working in their pajamas at night. It's these things that we need to, to coalesce around our foundational to.

00:14:16:18 - 00:14:36:16
Jennifer Moss
Then how do we optimize and increase performance. But without these foundational aspects, we can't get there. And leaders are scratching their head. They're like, why is this not working? Why are people still disengaged? And, and I think that they're missing this very important psychological behavioral mindset that's changed.

00:14:36:18 - 00:15:06:22
Kevin Eikenberry
Yeah. This community piece is really important. And and I don't want people to just drop that into, well, that means we need to be in the office or we shouldn't be in the office or whatever. But you do, you do say something. In the book that I find incredibly provocative in a way, and that is many of you may have heard that, that, Schultz at when he was creating Starbucks, said he wanted Starbucks to be to be the third place that you had.

00:15:07:00 - 00:15:24:07
Kevin Eikenberry
You had, you had a place that you could go as the third place in your in your world. And you say that the office perhaps should be the third place. So what do you mean? And why do you say that?

00:15:24:09 - 00:15:54:20
Jennifer Moss
Well, I love the idea of the third place and actually came stemmed from World War two, where there was, you know, a Russian dissident that was living in, in Germany and was obviously in a very precarious position and in the resistance he had created this place that was a third place. And it became somewhere where all different ideas, all different backgrounds and cultures can come and have an open space to really think about solving problems.

00:15:54:22 - 00:16:23:09
Jennifer Moss
And, you know, work right now can be done in so many different parts of the world, in so many different places. And we proved within the pandemic that we can work remotely and still be highly productive. So that question of productivity has been debunked by Stanford professor like Nicholas Bloom and Mark Marr. You know, lots of, research has been done to show that these return to office mandates don't actually improve all of this morale.

00:16:23:09 - 00:16:41:06
Jennifer Moss
And, and, and so we need to rethink what that looks like. And we need to think about the office is not a place where we can just pull people at what feels very arbitrary, from a place where they feel like they're doing good work into a space where they're just doing the exact same thing inside the office.

00:16:41:06 - 00:17:04:19
Jennifer Moss
So they're still on zoom. There's they're still isolated. They're not gathering, they're not ideating, they're not innovating. And so the office now needs to be that third place where you go to think together, to collaborate, to make up strategic AI, you know, plans, and you work together side by side, and then you go home to do all the other stuff.

00:17:05:00 - 00:17:23:06
Jennifer Moss
And I make this point because I think this is really critical of CEOs, you know, really loudly talking about shrinking the workforce because AI is going to come in. Do we care if AI is not in the office or in the office? I mean, when we talk about that, being a coworker, you know, AI is our coworker.

00:17:23:11 - 00:17:38:12
Jennifer Moss
And then on the other hand, we're talking about morale. It has to be where you're working together. It doesn't compute. Then when we're bringing AI into the conversation because they're in the cloud, we are never going to interact with them in an in-person way. So we're even.

00:17:38:12 - 00:17:41:18
Kevin Eikenberry
Trying to call it a day, and it's not a day. It's a it's.

00:17:41:18 - 00:17:56:16
Jennifer Moss
Yeah, exactly. It's and this is the thing that I feel seems very hypocritical, this idea we're going to have AI as our teammates and yet we all need to be in person so that we can be more productive. It's just very contradictory.

00:17:56:18 - 00:18:15:08
Kevin Eikenberry
I think the really important thing you're saying here, and I've been saying this for ever since people started coming back to the office, right when they were able to come back to the office was, if you're going to work in the office, the days you're going to work in the office, those need to be different days. And to create the third place, they have to be different days.

00:18:15:10 - 00:18:39:08
Kevin Eikenberry
We can't be going and doing exactly the same thing. Any leader who's had someone say to them, why am I coming to the office to do exactly what I did at home should be answering. You're right, you shouldn't be. We need to. But that's not that's not an indictment of the employee or of the work. It's an indictment of what the expectations are of when we gather.

00:18:39:12 - 00:18:48:09
Kevin Eikenberry
And how can we create the gathering to create the things that we want and need, both individually and organizationally? Right.

00:18:48:11 - 00:19:15:03
Jennifer Moss
I completely agree with that. And I know, you know, you've been advocating for this too. And I think there's more of us in the data, data backed, you know, research that has come to this conversation lately, just not understanding why the data is not being followed. You know, we the lot of CEOs, a lot of organizations and leadership, they talk.

00:19:15:03 - 00:19:16:21
Kevin Eikenberry
About, oh, they're cherry picking the data.

00:19:16:21 - 00:19:40:23
Jennifer Moss
Let's be there cherry picking the data. And this is the thing is that, you know, they taught some of these organizations, these large organizations tout being data that they make data back decisions. They guide other organizations to make data back decisions. And yet this is data that they're not following. And for me, that feels like there's there's something behind that in it.

00:19:40:23 - 00:20:04:12
Jennifer Moss
And a lot of it has to do with the fact that their mode of leading for very many years has been to see people to show that, like, if you're in the office and I know you're working, and that's how I am comfortable leading and and so I think that that's been a big, a big problem, you know, in, in, in and frustration, I think for a lot of us.

00:20:04:14 - 00:20:21:22
Kevin Eikenberry
There's a chapter in this book, you open it up, you won't be able to see it. But I've got a little marker right next to it. There's a chapter here in a book about work titled Freedom. And there are some leaders here say freedom. Jennifer, what are you talking about? Like, there's a there's a level of control.

00:20:21:22 - 00:20:30:23
Kevin Eikenberry
There's a set of boundaries here that are required in order for work to happen. Like, what are you talking about here as it relates to freedom?

00:20:31:01 - 00:20:56:05
Jennifer Moss
I felt like from my discovering that this was maybe one of my favorite chapters, was this idea of under it was an for me because I was feeling this sense of, you know, that people were resisting. And I kept, you know, I kept seeing, and having more conversations with employees talking about making these really dramatic turns and deciding to opt out of work.

00:20:56:07 - 00:21:20:05
Jennifer Moss
I was noting that or noticing that we were at the thinnest executive pipeline for women that we've been in decades, women are making these choices. And I started to follow that. And I found that, you know, women have really increased their startup activity. Number of patents that women having have built in the last several years has doubled. You know, they're they're moving into part time now.

00:21:20:07 - 00:21:46:18
Jennifer Moss
And there's there's obviously a major concern in how do we maintain this talent base. But what we're finding is women are just saying, I need flexibility. I need the things that you promised me and you betrayed me by pulling those back. I'm going to take my career and my plan in my own hands. And that really brought me again into the science of of freedom.

00:21:46:18 - 00:22:18:05
Jennifer Moss
And our our sense of freedom is so deeply wired. It's so baked in that it's very subconscious. When we're given something and we have autonomy and then that is stripped from us, it's clawed back. Our response is to fight even to our own personal peril, to get it. And this is a big part of where, you know, policies are coming in and trust is declined because there's a subconscious part of our brain that's saying you took my freedom and you took my agency.

00:22:18:05 - 00:22:41:00
Jennifer Moss
And so now I'm not going to give it back to you, because I don't trust that you're going to do good things with it. And hence the highest level of active disengagement in a decade, people, you know, not being as productive. We see people rage applying and quiet quitting. And, you know, we see all the these responses, on TikTok and from Gen Z's that are saying, I'm not going to opt into that model.

00:22:41:09 - 00:23:05:14
Jennifer Moss
And so we burned a lot of bridges in those policies being given and taken away. And that's where leaders need to come in and understand that freedom is a fundamental right. And how do we rebuild that trust? By making sure that we're not over promising, and under delivering and also giving people what they need, which is focus on well-being, which is flexibility, which is agency and autonomy.

00:23:05:14 - 00:23:16:19
Jennifer Moss
Those are all things that lead to higher performance. And the idea of going even doubling down further on taking away freedom, I think, is a very ineffective strategy.

00:23:16:21 - 00:23:39:07
Kevin Eikenberry
I was on the other side of the mic yesterday. I was being interviewed for a podcast and the radio show, and the question that I was asked had was framed around, what if? What if people get their job done in less than 40 hours? What should you do? And I would say, well, I should rejoice. Like why not?

00:23:39:07 - 00:24:09:01
Kevin Eikenberry
If there. The reason for I'm making bringing this up is that as long as we as leaders are framing this around the hours now, I know that in some cases we're paying people by the hour. But take that out of this. If our conversation in our own head is all about are they working rather than are they accomplishing the expected actions at the at the quality level we require, then we're as long as we're focusing on the time, we're focused on the wrong question.

00:24:09:03 - 00:24:30:14
Kevin Eikenberry
If someone's getting their work done for me, that's everything that I could dream of. And they're doing it in half of the time. Then one of two things either rejoice for everyone or help them find ways to use more of that time to serve both of them and the organization like that should not be a problem. That should be an opportunity all the way around.

00:24:30:16 - 00:24:33:23
Kevin Eikenberry
This is good that way better than I said yesterday. Oh, by the way.

00:24:34:18 - 00:24:54:13
Jennifer Moss
That was I was just going to say like, that is so perfectly articulated. This is exactly how I feel. It should be goals, not ours. We should be completely changed the way that we measure GDP. We should be thinking about unpaid labor. I mean, there's so many things that we need to be thinking about when it comes to measuring success.

00:24:54:16 - 00:25:15:00
Jennifer Moss
It should be goals, not ours. And when we think about what you just said, I think is really critical is if someone finishes early and they get their work done in less time, talk to them about what would be exciting for them to be working on, you know, career path thing, what could be, you know, something meaningful that they want to engage in.

00:25:15:00 - 00:25:37:21
Jennifer Moss
How can they be, you know, using this whatever they're they're basically giving themselves now 50% time to go and do, you know, really cool things and work on projects that they love. And and it's also to the promise of I was to save us time. That was the promise of AI. It's going to take care of all of that, that work that is just tedious and boring and takes up a whole bunch of time.

00:25:38:02 - 00:25:58:15
Jennifer Moss
Well, what I keep hearing now, and there was great research that just came out, a study that found that now people are finding that with AI, they're actually working more because they're getting more work piled on after they're using this technology to be, you know, more efficient. And they're also having to work with AI that isn't quite there yet.

00:25:58:17 - 00:26:32:05
Kevin Eikenberry
And here's the thing. So if you're finding that in your organization, if you're if you're a leader and you're sensing that, then what you need to do is have a conversation with your team, like, is that what they're feeling? How are how is this playing out for us? Because, you know, and there's throughout the history of time, as we've gotten things that have allowed us to be more productive, there's always been new stuff, like we shouldn't be surprised by that, but hopefully what we're adding are things that can add greater value to the world, to the customer, to the team, to the individual.

00:26:32:09 - 00:26:38:23
Kevin Eikenberry
And so as a leader, we can be impacting that by having a conversation with our folks. Yes. No.

00:26:39:01 - 00:27:02:21
Jennifer Moss
This is something that I, I agree with as well. And we talked about this earlier, but I believe culture can be changed in 20 minutes or less. It's really just having that these types of conversations and being open to hearing how people feel about their own role and how successful they feel like they are in it, and what are the things that they would like to, you know, to do to try to improve it?

00:27:02:21 - 00:27:24:14
Jennifer Moss
And is I actually helping them or has it taken away all that mundane work? And yet the promise again, was to build up their creativity or be able to upskill them. Have they been upskill this is another big problem, is that people that you know are now just kind of afraid to put their hand up to say, I really don't have work to do.

00:27:24:16 - 00:27:56:07
Jennifer Moss
And so then this idea of seeing people work, they'll just create, you know, busy work. Task masking is what's happening a lot now, too, because managers aren't really asking. And we gather data. The best way for us to gather data is for managers and their direct reports to have weekly ideation conversations that are non-work related, and then also bring in what's stressing us out, what's making us, you know, excited this week and being able to have rapport so you can build trust.

00:27:56:07 - 00:28:19:00
Jennifer Moss
And then over time, you can really learn what motivates people and what holds them back from being successful. And that's where managers, I think are really squeezed right now. They're also highly burned out because they have this pressure, but that 20 minutes can be the most effective for you to hit your revenue numbers for you to hit growth goals, for you to hit, you know, productivity goals.

00:28:19:00 - 00:28:25:03
Jennifer Moss
All of that can be measured and tracked back to having these kinds of relationships with your team.

00:28:25:05 - 00:28:46:05
Kevin Eikenberry
We're having a conversation with Jennifer Moss about her new book, Why Are We Here? Creating a Work Culture that works, work culture that everyone wants. And before we wrap up and let you tell us where they can get the book and all those good things, I have a couple of other questions for you, and I want to know, Jennifer, what you do for fun.

00:28:48:06 - 00:29:10:16
Jennifer Moss
That's such a great question, especially because it changes all the time. But right now, what I do for fun has been going out with my teen daughter in the morning and she's 15, going to be 16. So this is precious time right now. We get up every morning and we go for this walk up to this place called Poppy's Bagels, and we go and get a very specific bagel.

00:29:10:16 - 00:29:33:15
Jennifer Moss
Bagel. And we sit, we take the dog for a walk, and I talk with her about what's going on in her life. It takes about an hour every day this summer, and I have to tell you that that for me, is not just fun. And I feel good because I'm going to be physical, but I'm really getting to spend precious time with my my soon to be 16 year old, daughter, which I know is going to be fleeting.

00:29:33:17 - 00:29:53:16
Kevin Eikenberry
And listen. Feedback says not every 16 year old wants to spend time with mom like that. So you're doing something right, and that's certainly helping with it, I'm sure. Every day you're hoping for one more of those days, right? Who knows? Listen, I want to know to Jennifer what you're reading these days.

00:29:53:18 - 00:30:17:15
Jennifer Moss
So I have just put this book up, I will, I'm loving it. It's called The Tell by Amy Griffin, and it's an excellent book. It's a memoir. And, she's a perfectionist that, you know, has worked in New York. She owns this venture capital company. And and she later in life finally decided to tell her and share the secret of childhood trauma.

00:30:17:19 - 00:30:45:16
Jennifer Moss
And so she writes about that perfectionism and how, you know, how it really drove her, why she became a, long distance runner. She just ran and ran, but she was running away from a secret about her life. And I think it's a really it's a vulnerable book, but it's a book that shows that, you know, things that we've dealt with can be overcome by by communicating it and sharing it with other people and getting that kind of support from people around you.

00:30:45:18 - 00:30:48:17
Kevin Eikenberry
The title, again, is the the tell.

00:30:48:19 - 00:30:51:03
Jennifer Moss
The tell Amy Griffin.

00:30:51:05 - 00:31:07:10
Kevin Eikenberry
We will have that in the show notes. The tell. I just couldn't hear that second word. Right. I wanted to make sure I got it right and we will have it in the show notes for everybody. So, Jennifer, the question you've most wanted me to ask from the very beginning is how can people connect with you? Learn more about what you're doing.

00:31:07:21 - 00:31:10:17
Kevin Eikenberry
Where can they get the book, all those kinds of things.

00:31:10:18 - 00:31:27:06
Jennifer Moss
So you can get the book anywhere. You know, you can get in your library to Amazon to, you know, to wherever books are sold. But if you want to find out just more about stuff, I have a lot of, articles that I've shared on the site and resources. It's jennifer-moss.com.

00:31:27:08 - 00:31:52:06
Kevin Eikenberry
Jennifer Dash Moscone that will also be, of course, in the show notes. Now, I have a question for all of you who are watching or listening, whether it's with me live right now or whether it's later, it doesn't matter. The question is the same now what? What action are you going to take as a result? And I can look at my notes and, and share with you what I'm going to do as a result of this?

00:31:52:11 - 00:32:11:10
Kevin Eikenberry
One of those things I want to share with Jennifer after we're done, but it doesn't matter what I'm going to do. It only matters that matters to me, but only matters to you. What you're going to do. And you. If you take this as a way to collect knowledge, it has a has a value. It has a much greater value.

00:32:11:12 - 00:32:32:09
Kevin Eikenberry
If you say, I'm going to take that insight and apply it in this question helps you do that. Now what? Now that I've got this information, what will I do next? I hope that you will take that question seriously. Because I'm going to keep asking you every week and I hope that you'll do that. Jennifer, thanks so much for coming back.

00:32:32:09 - 00:32:39:04
Kevin Eikenberry
I've been looking for we had a bit of a delay to get this done. So glad we finally did and so good to see you. Thanks for being with you.

00:32:39:04 - 00:32:41:00
Jennifer Moss
Thank you. Kevin.

00:32:41:02 - 00:32:58:11
Kevin Eikenberry
And so everybody, if you enjoyed this, make sure you're subscribed wherever you're watching because you don't want to miss another. And there will be another live in just a couple of days. But every single week, there'll be another one of these great conversations at the Remarkable Leadership Podcast. So wherever it is that you are watching, make sure you subscribe.

00:32:58:14 - 00:33:03:20
Kevin Eikenberry
Make sure you tell someone else so you can come back next week for another episode of the Remarkable Leadership Podcast.