The Remarkable Leadership Podcast

00:00:06:00 - 00:00:15:14
Speaker 1
Biases. We all have them. And the more we are aware of them, the less negative impact they will have on our behavior and performance.

00:00:15:15 - 00:00:39:12
Speaker 1
But what are the biggest biases for us as leaders, and how can we be both more aware of them and better equipped to work with them? Well, those are the questions we're exploring today. Welcome to another episode of the Remarkable Leadership Podcast, where we are helping leaders grow personally and professionally to lead more effectively, make a bigger, positive difference for their teams, organizations, and the world.

00:00:39:12 - 00:01:02:13
Speaker 1
It's a pretty cool thing to do that I get to do, and I'm glad that you're here with me. if you are listening to this podcast in the future, you could be with us live. There are people with us live, and you could be watching it rather than listening, which you might be doing. And so if you want to find out when and how that's happening, you can sign up for our Facebook or LinkedIn groups, to get all that information, pertinent information.

00:01:02:13 - 00:01:28:00
Speaker 1
You can go to remarkable podcast.com/facebook or remarkable podcast.com/linkedin to get all that inside scoop and then hopefully join us in the future. today's episode is brought to you by our remarkable master classes pick from 13 important life and leadership skills to help you become a more effective, productive, and confident leader while overcoming some of your toughest challenges.

00:01:28:02 - 00:01:47:08
Speaker 1
You can learn more and sign up at Remarkable Masterclass. Dot com. And now, without further ado, I'm going to bring in our guest. I'm going to add her to the screen, and I'm going to introduce her to you. And we're going to dive in. My guest today is Lisa Trauma. She is a seasoned executive expert in executive search and leadership solutions.

00:01:47:11 - 00:02:17:01
Speaker 1
She's the founder of Lisa Trauma Associates and Leadership Intelligence Services. her career spans notable roles at global firms like, odd, burdensome and at Kearney. And she brings a wealth of experience from her time at IBM as well. She holds a master's degree in communication from Fairfield University, is skilled in various leadership assessment tools. She also publishes a newsletter that delves into leadership, insights and ideas called Leader Edge.

00:02:17:07 - 00:02:33:04
Speaker 1
And she has a book, a brand new book, which will be the focus of our conversation today. It is called Mind Not understanding the cognitive and emotional biases that Prevent rational leadership. And with that, enough of me.

00:02:33:06 - 00:02:45:11
Speaker 2
Lisa, welcome. Thank you. That's quite the introduction, Kevin. I appreciate it. Good to be here. Thank you for your interest in the book and for the invitation to join your audience.

00:02:45:13 - 00:03:11:00
Speaker 1
Well, I'm happy to have you, and I've been looking forward to this conversation. So I will tell you all that. before I have someone on the show, if there's a book, which there almost always is, I have reviewed the book to decide if I'm going to ask the person to join me or not, and then, I've typically read all or nearly all of the book before the time comes, but usually it's just in the days right before I do the show.

00:03:11:02 - 00:03:31:13
Speaker 1
But this particular book, I received when I was working on the manuscript for my new book, and I actually read part of it to help me think about a couple of things. I was working on. So I read some of it earlier, and then I read the rest of it in the last couple of days. So, Lisa, so glad to have you here.

00:03:31:15 - 00:03:51:13
Speaker 1
or we're gonna talk about mind knots or biases, I suppose. But before we go too much further, beyond that bio introduction that I share with share with everybody, like, tell us a little bit about how you end up like when you when you were five, you didn't say, I think I want to do executive search someday.

00:03:51:15 - 00:03:56:13
Speaker 1
Like, how do you end up doing this work and what sort of leads you to the book?

00:03:56:15 - 00:04:00:15
Speaker 2
Yeah. No. Yeah. Right. And when I was five. No, I did not think about that.

00:04:00:17 - 00:04:03:03
Speaker 1
not even when you were 15, probably.

00:04:03:05 - 00:04:26:03
Speaker 2
No. I mean, I grew up in a very sort of blue collar family and environment. I would say, you know, my mom and dad probably didn't even know what CEO meant. I mean, that was sort of the level at which I started. But, you know, I was different, you know, and you, you grow up in an environment like that sort of scripted.

00:04:26:05 - 00:04:42:23
Speaker 2
Everyone has a preconceived notion about how their daughter's going to grow up and what they should be doing and how the son's going to grow up. And, you know, so for my for my brother, he was going to be the doctor or something. He, in fact, now is a scientist. and for me, I was supposed to get married and have children and raise a family, right?

00:04:43:02 - 00:05:16:07
Speaker 2
But my brain never worked like that. It just didn't. I always had an incredible, curiosity and always wanted to learn, you know, just insatiable for learning. So the script never really fit me, honestly. And I, you know, paid for my education, went through, did all the stuff that you mentioned before and here I am. And so I was extremely fortunate to end up doing what I do right now for a living, which I love.

00:05:16:09 - 00:05:49:06
Speaker 2
and it was all because I, I worked for, a few years at a private equity environment for a leader supporting this leader who was an executive search person prior. And he hired me to work with him to manage this portfolio of 14 companies with lots of leadership, issues and challenges. Sure, I learned. Right. And then he took me and, hired me to work in a search firm that he then ran, and it just sort of took off from there.

00:05:49:10 - 00:05:57:02
Speaker 2
So I'm very lucky, you know, this was by accident, but it's the best thing that's happened to me.

00:05:57:04 - 00:06:19:16
Speaker 1
Well, I have found that while luck, things, lucky things may happen, people make their own luck in terms of what they do when those things happen. So, I, I want to ask you something. I don't want you to take it wrong by any means, but but there's a there's a part in the subtitle that I think is probably not often mentioned.

00:06:19:18 - 00:06:39:19
Speaker 1
or even this idea is not all that often mentioned in books these days. I sound like an old person when I say that. but it's the last two lines of the subtitle, which are Rational leadership. So first of all, what do you mean by rational leadership? Because that wouldn't be the adjective a lot of people would use today.

00:06:39:23 - 00:06:47:17
Speaker 1
So let's make sure that everyone knows what you mean by that. And I know it was a conscious decision. So let's talk about that before we go any further.

00:06:47:19 - 00:07:20:21
Speaker 2
Yeah, I mean rational. By rational I mean leadership, decisions that are made with thinking. Logical thinking. Right. And not impulsive, not quick responses to a stimulus and any kind. those are the things that get fall by the wayside, right? Because of these biases, which I termed my knots. we're we're just loaded with lots of, preconceived notions that sort of guide us.

00:07:20:23 - 00:07:51:13
Speaker 2
And they're in play every day. And they, as I say, they, you know, control the decisions we make in the actions we take. And unless we become, first of all, just understand that they exist level number one of aware awareness and then learn to be, tune into ourselves and sort of pay attention to patterns of decisions we make outcomes the how our more importantly, our process for making those decisions.

00:07:51:13 - 00:08:15:11
Speaker 2
Right. Which then have consequences and behavioral what however, you know, that's really why I wrote the book. That's the core of it. And it is a leadership lens. Right. So you mentioned that I, you know, do a lot of these assessments and stuff in the course of my work. That's correct. But this is a leadership lens that I don't think many companies think about.

00:08:15:13 - 00:08:20:14
Speaker 2
And yet at the root of most of what goes wrong.

00:08:20:16 - 00:08:47:19
Speaker 1
you use that for it. When we were chatting before the show went live, you use that phrase leadership lens, and I use that idea and that language to and I think you're right, I, I would say that the this discussion, both societally and in leadership circles about the idea of biases is far more prevalent now than it's ever been in my life now.

00:08:47:21 - 00:09:11:06
Speaker 1
but that doesn't mean that it's a lens that we're using very often with leaders or as leaders. And so I definitely wants to get there. But but one more thing before we get there, because you said calling biases, nots, and, you know, throughout the book you sort of used the, the, the, the, the metaphor of the knot and, and the rope and all of that stuff, sort of sailor type terms.

00:09:11:08 - 00:09:22:02
Speaker 1
And, and before we get into some of these biases, I'm curious why that metaphor? How does that metaphor inform us and help us look through this lens?

00:09:22:04 - 00:09:39:00
Speaker 2
Right. Well, because if you think of a knot, right, it, it's very hard. It can be very hard to untangle. and knots, you know, the book, it does have a nautical theme. I was trying to lighten the cognitive load of the topic, so I don't.

00:09:39:00 - 00:09:42:16
Speaker 1
Know if you're, like some famous sailor in your spare time, I think.

00:09:42:18 - 00:10:01:20
Speaker 2
No, I do love the water. And I do love boats. But no, I'm not a sailor. But, it's, you know, it has a double meaning too, right? Because knots can tie us in place and tie us down. And if we don't know how to unravel them, there we stay. And yet, from a nautical perspective, knots can give you speed and move you forward.

00:10:01:22 - 00:10:23:13
Speaker 2
And so the big sort of picture takeaway from the book is how do you, recognize the knots that are prominent in you? And, you know, my, my knots are may not be this my prominent. My knots may not be the same as yours. Right. But I know what mine are. And so I won't let them tie me down.

00:10:23:18 - 00:10:52:20
Speaker 2
You know, you learn. I've learned intervention strategies to move me forward. So you can flip them from what can be, these anchors or tight woven knots to strategic assets. And that's the point in leadership, right? Because there are three truths that I always say about psychological bias. number one is it's a human condition. None of us are immune.

00:10:52:22 - 00:10:59:04
Speaker 2
Some people may think it's I don't have as many biases as anybody else, but that is not true.

00:10:59:05 - 00:11:02:04
Speaker 1
There's the bias like right there. We've already got this bias.

00:11:02:04 - 00:11:27:00
Speaker 2
That is bias. And so we are you know, there's a mosaic of these biases or my knots that are usually at play. It's not even usually one that we have to worry about. It's many. So it's a human condition. Nobody's immune. they represent our mental lens and there's no way to get around that. So you go back to the question you asked before in terms of leadership.

00:11:27:02 - 00:11:58:08
Speaker 2
Yes. A leader's mental lens means everything, because that is the lens through which you see the world. Every situation, every person, every business challenge. so therein lies why it's so crucial to pay attention to this as an individual leader. And, from an organizational standpoint, because what I also say in the book, you probably saw as, you know, as a leader goes, the organization goes, we all know that, right?

00:11:58:13 - 00:12:09:19
Speaker 2
So biases are very pervasive and we mirror many people will mirror behaviors, attitudes, emotions of a leader. So now, you know, all of a sudden.

00:12:09:21 - 00:12:24:08
Speaker 1
I mean I would even say not many. Everybody does like maybe not as much as some more than others. But like people often say, Kevin, well, the best leaders are our role models. I'm like every leaders are role model, like they're watching.

00:12:24:10 - 00:12:25:13
Speaker 2
Right in one way.

00:12:25:15 - 00:12:29:16
Speaker 1
Not they're figuring out how the game is played on this team.

00:12:29:18 - 00:12:54:11
Speaker 2
Exactly 100%. So, you know, that's the number two of a truth about these biases. And the third thing is they can't be eliminated ever. You know, we own them. They're part of us. We are wired. What we can do though is manage them, learn to recognize them and manage them. And that's really the whole point of the book.

00:12:54:13 - 00:13:20:01
Speaker 2
And as you saw in every chapter, I break the chapter into three parts. The first part talks about the bias and what's like not good about it or the negative consequences of it, with backed up with real stories, public stories that people will know. this middle of the chapter is sort of how to navigate them on an individual level through something I call the captain's compass.

00:13:20:03 - 00:13:46:07
Speaker 2
And the third is really the the big takeaway is, you know what? Guess what? These affect a whole organization and they will you can think it's just, you know, within a leader it's not. So the third section of our chapter is a systemic approach to how to manage these and how to, you know, I say it's like we've met the enemy, and the enemy is us, right?

00:13:46:09 - 00:14:00:19
Speaker 2
So a lot of the strategies in the book have been designed to protect ourselves from ourselves and to protect organizations from ourselves by putting in very clear things in place.

00:14:00:21 - 00:14:22:19
Speaker 1
sorry, I didn't mean interrupt you. If you're just joining us, the book that this, that Lisa trauma keeps telling you about is her new book called Mind Knots. understanding the cognitive and emotional biases that Prevent rational leadership. And so now I want to talk about some of these biases or biases. I'm not sure which is right.

00:14:22:19 - 00:14:36:02
Speaker 1
Maybe both are right. I've said both now in the last 15 minutes. So, so I want to start here, like there's a lot of them and there's a lot in the book. There's no way we're going to get to all of them. And so you all, if you like this, you need to go get a copy of the book.

00:14:36:02 - 00:15:10:04
Speaker 1
We'll talk to you about that at the end. but I want to start with this question like, we know it's the human condition. Like we all have them. We can't avoid them. We can't get rid of them. I understand we understand that you've just told us that it's true. the question is, when when you work with leaders, especially since you work a lot with executives, are there any that you find to be more prevalent than others that you see showing up more that we ought to really make sure we're sort of maybe almost hyper aware of?

00:15:10:06 - 00:15:25:23
Speaker 2
Yeah. yeah. Let me frame this. So there are over 200 that are legitimately recognized in the canons of behavioral finance. I wasn't going to write a book about 200 biases, so thank you.

00:15:26:01 - 00:15:28:23
Speaker 1
you might not have been on the show if you written about 200. No.

00:15:29:01 - 00:15:50:02
Speaker 2
So, I mean, I paid attention. Listen, you know what I do for a living. I'm an executive recruiter. I get, you know, have discussions with organizations and leaders who are looking to hire other leaders. And most of it's sometimes it's because a leader's done exceptionally well and they're moving up. Sometimes it's because they're leaving the organization. But by and large, most of the time it's because there's a problem.

00:15:50:04 - 00:15:51:03
Speaker 2
And so.

00:15:51:05 - 00:15:53:18
Speaker 1
They're leaving, but not of their own accord.

00:15:53:20 - 00:16:18:14
Speaker 2
Yeah. Right. And so, you know, I I'm a great listener and I'm a great note taker. And I, I watch for patterns and I put things together over the course of like many discussions, many searches, solving these problems. It occurred to me like, okay, if clients describe the symptoms, well, sounds I was doing this and that's you know, doing this and that's creating this.

00:16:18:16 - 00:16:39:04
Speaker 2
When I started to collect all those symptoms and look at them, there were eight themes that just kept coming up, which really the are the roots of the problems. And what are they? They're my knots, as I call them. And those eight were egocentric and.

00:16:39:04 - 00:16:39:21
Speaker 1
They're in the book.

00:16:39:23 - 00:17:21:20
Speaker 2
Shocking right there in the book. So in the book. Exactly. So the headlines of my eight chapters became those eight prominent problems that continued to surface, that I was then engaged to solve through a an executive search. Egocentric bias, I would say, is probably number one, because, you know, from my perspective, because I work with leaders at a vice president level through to the C-suite, these are positions of people don't like the word power, but I mean that in terms of having the ability to advance through a mission and an organization.

00:17:21:20 - 00:18:04:15
Speaker 2
Yes. So with that comes typically an ego, the varying intensities. But I would say that's probably the number one bias that manifests in problems if not managed. Okay. Curse of knowledge is another. Because again, you know, as you get up the ladder, you know, you can be very expert in something, and that presents itself in communication problems, understanding how to unravel your knowledge, not to be able to transfer the knowledge to a team or an organization or whatever, control another one.

00:18:04:15 - 00:18:13:08
Speaker 2
And the manifestation of I mean, people think I got it, I can control this. And we can't control external factors.

00:18:13:09 - 00:18:15:07
Speaker 1
We can influence them, we can.

00:18:15:11 - 00:18:50:11
Speaker 2
Control, we can influence them, and we can trick ourselves into thinking we have the external. We do not have that control. So that's a big one. And that manifests in micromanagement, you know, trying to control people like puppets and big issues. They're big problems. Conformity bias. Another and I don't I treated in the book for what it is in terms of, you know, we know what conformity means, but, you know, with all these biases, by the way, I look at them as, where's the risk and where's the treasure?

00:18:50:13 - 00:19:18:00
Speaker 2
Because they do have redeeming qualities that are associated with them. Conformity is one of them. So conforming in the context of group decision making is not a good thing, right? That's groupthink. Those decisions generally are never good. Conforming to a purpose of an organization, a mission, a higher purpose. That's a good thing. You need people in the company that are on board with that mission.

00:19:18:02 - 00:19:47:08
Speaker 2
So I make that distinction. The others are optimism bias again, huge asset to leaders. But comes with huge risk too. belief bias, same thing. tied to certain beliefs that, you know, lead us to ignore information other people risks, the whole thing. Intuition. One of my favorites, that, you know, we I probably don't just say a lot about that.

00:19:47:11 - 00:19:57:08
Speaker 2
You know, many. And I'm I have a high intuition bias, but I now know and have learned that got to pair it with logical reasoning. Right.

00:19:57:09 - 00:20:20:04
Speaker 1
Listen, you have an intuition bias. And you wrote a book that has in the subtitle of the words Rational leadership, right? Which means that you're aware of it. You overcame it at that level because we can we can start to think about these in some ways as tensions, right? The tensions between them and you. And you've done something else in the book around these to help us think about how do we how do we mitigate and how do we navigate around them and all of those sorts of things.

00:20:20:05 - 00:20:47:14
Speaker 1
but but, you know, you can start to see how these become tensions and certainly, that that idea of almost like knowledge versus intuition can kind of be, opposite ends. And we might lean one way or the other. I really want to you identified most of the eight you talked to at least a minute about them, but there's a couple of my I want us to talk a little bit more about, and I want to start with and you, you know, you said it here.

00:20:47:14 - 00:21:05:20
Speaker 1
You said the control bias. But in the book, you call it the illusion of control bias, which is what I love about because it is an illusion. Right? Even though we may have, as a senior leader, have a lot of power. Right? It's we really don't have control. We think we do. We like to we like to act as if we do.

00:21:05:22 - 00:21:29:13
Speaker 1
And yet it's an illusion. So talk about that one in terms of how. Like we're talking to all the people that are watching us now that are listening to us any time in the future. Like how did they how might they let me just start here and say, here's my observation. It's easy to see all of these in somebody else.

00:21:29:15 - 00:21:33:18
Speaker 1
Like if you read Lisa's book. Yes. That person. Yep. That person. Yep. That.

00:21:33:20 - 00:21:34:14
Speaker 2
That's right.

00:21:34:16 - 00:22:02:10
Speaker 1
But that's not what we need to be thinking about here. I mean, other than as an example. And of course you do that in the book, but we need to turn the mirror around. So my question is on the illusion of control bias. typically how might that what might be we been seeing or noticing in our world, in our work, in our leadership that might help us see that, in fact, we have that bias.

00:22:02:12 - 00:22:30:09
Speaker 2
Yeah. So from a yes, from an individual perspective, it's going to show up because you're going to have people who generally will probably be micromanaged that's, you know, a very rippling effect in all bad directions. So that affects morale, right? It affects, you know, outcomes. You know, productivity, it affects teamwork, everything. It's disabling. Let's just say that micromanagement is disabling.

00:22:30:14 - 00:22:31:06
Speaker 2
So so we.

00:22:31:06 - 00:22:42:06
Speaker 1
Can can we say then in, in in channeling our Beth Best Jeff Foxworthy, if people call you a micromanager, you might have the illusion of control bias.

00:22:42:08 - 00:23:02:11
Speaker 2
Yeah. You know, I say biases leave clues, right? You just have to know. You have to notice them, right? You can notice them if you become aware and you develop and you become sensitive and kind of tune into yourself. But you know what other people will tell you in one way or another. It'll show up on a 360 review.

00:23:02:11 - 00:23:38:20
Speaker 2
It'll, you know, show up because people will leave the company. There will be clues. And the question is to get past those symptoms that I was talking about earlier and, and get to the root cause. What? And oftentimes it's because of the way someone's brain is wired. It's because of their minds, not that. And keeps them in a scripted way of respond doing or leading or managing instead of paying attention to what the the clues that are all around them that maybe it's not really making them the most effective leader.

00:23:38:22 - 00:24:10:00
Speaker 1
So now you've said this several times. I said this in the introduction as well. The idea of we've got to become aware of them. Yeah. what? So I asked you that very specifically about the illusion of control. But beyond that, like what are some ways, that we can become more, more aware because, you know, all the research says that most people think they're self-aware, and none of us really are very we're none of us are as self-aware as we think we are.

00:24:10:01 - 00:24:29:04
Speaker 1
Yeah. Like, how can we how can we become more, especially as it relates to these biases, because these biases are blind spots until we're aware of them. So how what what what's 2 or 3 pieces of advice that you could give us to help us build awareness across any or all of them?

00:24:29:06 - 00:24:48:20
Speaker 2
Yeah, right. So at first it you know, it starts with you have to have an interest in wanting to be self-aware, right? Self-awareness is like the main thing in emotional intelligence. You can't you can't make much progress in many directions unless you know, you really focus on that first. So how did you have any egocentric bias?

00:24:48:20 - 00:24:51:12
Speaker 1
You might not be interested, but just saying right.

00:24:51:14 - 00:25:18:12
Speaker 2
Now, usually not, you know. But there are the higher the level of someone's emotional intelligence, the more they will perhaps consider that they are not the ones with all the answers right? And, you know, here's how I frame it for my egocentric leaders. Right? There's a huge, need for recognition status, all of those things, the fame and fortune stuff.

00:25:18:12 - 00:25:41:17
Speaker 2
So fame and fortune and all that. Like, that's a huge driver for an egocentric person. so my response to people where I see that, and I'm trying to coach them through it and just open their mind to consider that maybe this is getting in their way. I sort of position is, listen, you know, fame and fortune is like an individual achievement and it's, you know, can be short lived.

00:25:41:19 - 00:26:24:10
Speaker 2
Legacy, on the other hand, is enriching more than the leader. It's enriching theoretically in organization and maybe beyond the business ecosystem. So if you are on the mission and thinking broader than, self-driven, interests to enrichment of others and an entire organization, ecosystem, etc., now you're building a legacy that's. And so that resonates because now you're flipping like my individual fame to wow, if I can enrich a bigger group population, that's pretty.

00:26:24:14 - 00:26:42:17
Speaker 1
So feed that ego. but in a more, more outwardly valuable way. so in terms of back to how we build, awareness, I sort of track there. Yeah. so we have to be interested in building our self-awareness. What else do we need to do? Yeah.

00:26:42:19 - 00:27:13:16
Speaker 2
So there are things you can there are things that do happen. You know, there are tools. So assessment tools really help somebody because it's like putting a great big magnifying glass on you. Right. these are objective tools. They, you know, I'm not here to say like it's 100%, but what they are great at is indications, indicators. And, they provide us with the right questions to ask somebody to get to what we need to work on.

00:27:13:20 - 00:27:43:10
Speaker 2
So that's a huge tool in awareness, self-awareness, listening to other people getting perspectives critical in leadership, critical to, you know, from a leadership team standpoint, that is a non-negotiable. And as you pointed out, and that is the truth. It's hard for us to notice these biases in ourself, but we can very readily notice them that other people typically.

00:27:43:12 - 00:27:56:13
Speaker 2
So when people have point, are pointing something out or have something to say, listen, just listen and consider that maybe there's a possibility there's a like an ounce of truth in there that you can work with.

00:27:56:15 - 00:28:20:01
Speaker 1
Especially if you hear it 716 times. Everybody. Yeah. If one person says you're micromanaging, that could be there's a just disconnect between your style and theirs. But if you keep hearing it right, there's it's you know, you said it earlier. Biases leave clues. The clue gets stronger with every time the feedback gets repeated.

00:28:20:03 - 00:28:45:15
Speaker 2
Exactly. Or, you know, you can have a case where there's, you know, a CEO who perhaps grew up in the finance track was a CFO or or grew up in the market and was a CMO before they achieve the CEO, if they can't step out of that very focused, expert role, they they tend to micromanage those functions. Right?

00:28:45:15 - 00:29:01:04
Speaker 2
Right. Because that's that's awareness, right? When all of a sudden, you know, things aren't moving, operating plans not unfolding from the bigger picture of it. Strategies aren't getting done because you're so focused on one thing that you is not your job anymore, right?

00:29:01:07 - 00:29:01:22
Speaker 1
100%.

00:29:02:04 - 00:29:03:13
Speaker 2
Managing what you know.

00:29:03:15 - 00:29:24:10
Speaker 1
And that's true, at the C-suite. And that's also true with frontline leaders. That happens everywhere. We got to be really careful about that. Lisa, you and I, I know I knew this before we even met, that we could have a long conversation about this, but all good things must come to an end. So I need us to move into a couple of final questions that I like to ask.

00:29:24:12 - 00:29:29:18
Speaker 1
my guests. And one of those is, what do you do for fun?

00:29:29:20 - 00:29:50:10
Speaker 2
so I love to be outdoors, and I love I love to read, but all the time, anytime, anywhere, anytime. But I love the outdoors, so I'm a huge gardener. I love to nurture things. So that's probably has a lot to do with what I do for a living. Love to nurture and grow and, you know, create beautiful things.

00:29:50:12 - 00:29:58:19
Speaker 2
those that's those are probably my two big things. Yeah. I golf a little bit. can't say I'm a, you know, great golfer, but we're working on.

00:29:58:19 - 00:30:10:19
Speaker 1
Not a salad. Like I thought I was gonna hear sailor out of all this. so you did mentioned reading, and you did know that I was going to ask you that because you did your homework. So my question is, what are you reading right now?

00:30:10:21 - 00:30:40:13
Speaker 2
Yeah. So, right now I'm, reading the book is called Neuro Habits, and it's excellent because it ties in with exactly what I am all about and and studying and talk about so written by Peter Hollins. and it's, it's a he goes into more about how to rewire your brain. Right. Different ways that he suggests that people can do that.

00:30:40:16 - 00:31:02:09
Speaker 2
So it's, it's very related to what I do. The other thing. So, that's more of a book I'm listening to. So I when I told you I loved to like, read and I'll do it anyway. Anyhow, in the car when I'm walking, I'm on audible right. And listening to my audiobooks, the, the book that I'm actually reading and holding in my hand right now is Mastery by Robert Greene, which is an excellent book.

00:31:02:09 - 00:31:23:09
Speaker 2
I'm, just sort of in the beginning stages of it and love it already. And a newer book that came out by Shane Parrish called Clear Thinking. Which is fascinating. And I'll tell you why. Because we talk about the same. We're speaking the same language. I'm talking about it in terms of my nuts, a little bit of a different angle.

00:31:23:11 - 00:31:32:16
Speaker 2
He's talking about it from clear thinking. We're headed in the same direction, but and we have the same some of the same stories in the book, too. It's remarkable.

00:31:32:18 - 00:31:54:09
Speaker 1
I have not read neuro habits. I have read the other two. I recommend the other, the other two both highly. So I will recommend to all of you for books, Clear Thinking, mastery, Neuro Habits, and mind nuts. Tell us where we can connect with you. Find the book. Like where do you want to point people? before we finish up.

00:31:54:10 - 00:32:18:18
Speaker 2
Okay. Thank you. Kevin. Yeah. I mean, LinkedIn is probably the easiest and the best way. And by the way, I did create a companion website for my nuts, which is mind not psycho. And that's another way to learn more about this. I really, explore 40 plus biases on the website because those are all mentioned in the book.

00:32:18:18 - 00:32:38:12
Speaker 2
They're not the core book, but they're, you know, this is a mosaic thing I write, like I said, from the beginning. So those biases matter. So that's a possibility. my nuts is on web. Amazon and my, website for my executive search business is Lucy trumble.com.

00:32:38:14 - 00:33:00:20
Speaker 1
And it's on the screen if you're watching. And if not all of those links will be in the show notes for you all. So before we go, everybody, I have a question that I ask all of you every week, every episode. And it's the same two words every time. And the question is now what? It's my favorite two word question because it's the question of action.

00:33:00:22 - 00:33:22:02
Speaker 1
So you've been in hopefully enjoying this conversation and gotten some insights from it. There's but there's been a tremendous amount of things that we've talked about that you could go out and apply right away. Maybe you've taken a leadership assessment and it's time to go back and look at it again. Maybe, it's thinking about how you can be a little more interested in your own self-awareness.

00:33:22:02 - 00:33:46:23
Speaker 1
Maybe, one of the biases we talked about is something that really hit home for you. And, you want to pick up this book or you want to, in other ways, research that bias to say, how is it impacting what I'm doing? My point here is whatever, just listening will not get you the results that will really choosing to say I'm gonna take some action as a result.

00:33:46:23 - 00:33:51:22
Speaker 1
Hope that you will do that. Lisa, thanks so much for being here. It was a pleasure to have you.

00:33:51:23 - 00:33:56:21
Speaker 2
Thank you. Kevin, it was a pleasure to be here. And hopefully this has been helpful to everyone in the audience.

00:33:57:02 - 00:34:14:12
Speaker 1
I'm confident that it has been. And, and I hope that if you are have been with us before, you know this. And if you haven't, you now we'll know that we do this every week. if you're on the podcast every week, there's a new episode, and every week there's a new episode that just me in about 4 or 5 minutes long as well.

00:34:14:12 - 00:34:29:03
Speaker 1
But every week, another interview, another conversation with an expert. I hope you'll come back and join us. Hope you like and subscribe. You know what to do and all that. Because every week we'll be back with another episode of the Remarkable Leadership Podcast. Thanks everybody.