The Remarkable Leadership Podcast

00:00:08:10 - 00:00:45:22
Kevin Eikenberry
If you've been here for long or been with this podcast for any length of time, you know, excuse me. You know how important I think mindsets are to our success. And that's where we're headed today for mindsets, perhaps for leader shifts that will help you change your view point and your success as a leader forever. Welcome to another episode of the Remarkable Leadership Podcast, where we are helping leaders grow personally and professionally to lead more effectively and make a bigger difference for their teams, organizations and the world.

00:00:46:00 - 00:01:12:00
Kevin Eikenberry
If you are listening to this podcast, you could join us in the future for episodes on your favorite social media channel. Well, unless your favorite channel is like TikTok or you can't join us, but you can find out about when those live episodes are happening, how you can get involved, and get some other info info, inside info about the show by going to either our LinkedIn or podcast groups and join those.

00:01:12:02 - 00:01:36:23
Kevin Eikenberry
You can do that by going to remarkable podcast.com/facebook or remarkable podcast.com/linked in. Simple as that. Today's episode is brought to you by my latest book, Flexible Leadership Navigate Uncertainty and Lead with confidence. It's time to realize that styles can get in our way, and that following our strengths might not always be the best approach. In a world that is more complex and uncertain than ever.

00:01:37:01 - 00:02:04:03
Kevin Eikenberry
Leaders need a new perspective, a set of tools to create great results that their organizations and teams need. That's why flexible leadership is here, and that's what it provides you. Learn more and order your copy today at remarkable podcast.com/flexible. And with that I'm going to bring in our guest. According to the book title and book cover and Amazon, he's Philip B Wilson.

00:02:04:03 - 00:02:28:12
Kevin Eikenberry
But he said I can call him Phil. So that's what I'm going to do. Phillip. Phil Wilson is the founder of Approachable Leadership, where he and his team help clients thrive and create extraordinary workplaces. He is a national expert on leadership, labor relations and crafting positive workplaces. He is a regularly featured in business media including Fox Business Network, Fast Company, Bloomberg News, Air magazine, and The New York Times.

00:02:28:14 - 00:02:55:23
Kevin Eikenberry
He is. He regularly delivers keynotes, workshops and webinars, and has been called to testify before Congress as a labor relations expert. He graduated Magna magna cum laude from Augustana College in Rock Island, Illinois, went to get his law degree at the University of Michigan. He is also the author of his latest book, The Leader Shift Playbook four Simple Changes to Score Big and Unleash Your Team's Potential.

00:02:56:01 - 00:02:58:18
Kevin Eikenberry
Phil, welcome. So glad to have you here.

00:02:58:20 - 00:03:01:09
Phillip Wilson
Thanks, Kevin. I really appreciate it. Thanks for having me.

00:03:01:14 - 00:03:03:00
Kevin Eikenberry
All the way from Oklahoma.

00:03:03:06 - 00:03:06:07
Phillip Wilson
All the way from broken Arrow, Oklahoma.

00:03:06:10 - 00:03:30:10
Kevin Eikenberry
Now, I am so glad that you said one of the last things you said before we got ready to leave was you said, I think, Kevin, that you and I have a lot in common in the what we talk about and think about. And I think that's true, which makes me especially glad, since you in college were a debater, and I don't really want to have a debate with you because I would probably lose, I think rather than that we'll just have a conversation.

00:03:30:10 - 00:03:31:13
Kevin Eikenberry
I hope that's I.

00:03:31:15 - 00:03:38:04
Phillip Wilson
Hope that's okay. Yeah. I like the, I do like a good debate, but I really do much prefer a conversation.

00:03:38:06 - 00:04:02:08
Kevin Eikenberry
Well, that's what I'm hoping we will have today. So let's start here. When you were growing up, in Oklahoma, I'm guessing you didn't realize you'd and or think you'd be doing the kind of work you're doing now. Exactly. So tell us a little bit about the journey that gets you from there to here. So how do you end up doing this kind of work?

00:04:02:10 - 00:04:28:16
Phillip Wilson
Well, especially if you talk about leadership and kind of leadership consulting. I never thought that I would be doing that kind of work. My, my, our family business was a labor relations consulting firm, and I went to law school to I was a weirdo in law school because I knew I wanted to be a lot of most people don't know what kind of law they want to practice, and they end up practicing whatever kind of the first partner is that they work with.

00:04:28:17 - 00:04:54:16
Phillip Wilson
I knew going in I wanted to be a labor lawyer. I wanted to I, I paid real close attention to my labor and employment law classes and probably not close enough attention to the rest of the stuff, but I kind of knew that's what I wanted to do. And I practiced law for a while. I did have the I don't know, that was a great decision on their part, but I was hired by a client of mine to be their director of HR for a year.

00:04:54:16 - 00:05:18:05
Phillip Wilson
So I got experience of being in in human resources, which is really my first leadership experience. That was the first time I had a team. I then moved back to the family business, which was this, this consulting business around labor relations. And when you're in that business, Kevin, you you are eyewitness to a lot of leadership. Trainwrecks.

00:05:18:07 - 00:05:20:12
Kevin Eikenberry
And so that's why you're there.

00:05:20:14 - 00:05:27:00
Phillip Wilson
Right? Yes. They they don't call you until like, the train has crashed. And so it's not.

00:05:27:00 - 00:05:30:13
Kevin Eikenberry
Like it might crash, right. It's. Oh, there's already cash. Yes.

00:05:30:17 - 00:05:57:11
Phillip Wilson
Right. There's. Yes. It's mayhem. We need help. Please. Desperately. Come down here and and then. And that experience, you know, you're going in for a crisis situation and you kind of are helping them out of the crisis. But you also at the same time are, you know, you realize this problem didn't like, just happen. There was a whole lot of problems that occurred to get to this point.

00:05:57:13 - 00:06:26:19
Phillip Wilson
And our goal is to not have this problem in the future. So we're going to have to fix a lot of these leadership issues, that are, that are here. And I just over the years struggled trying to find solutions, especially for first level leaders, that frontline leadership position, which is so critical and, and so that ended up leading me down this path of really studying leadership and learning about leadership and, and and writing about leadership.

00:06:26:19 - 00:06:34:02
Phillip Wilson
And so that's kind of how I ended up where I am. I did not start out in life thinking I was going to be a leadership writer or consultant.

00:06:34:03 - 00:07:07:01
Kevin Eikenberry
It's an interesting perspective. I'm glad that I let you impact that, because I asked you to unpack that, because I think that gives you it gives you a unique perspective. And certainly I'm guessing through all of those cases and all of those clients, you saw some trends, in terms of some of the some of the stumbling blocks that led to the mayhem, and I'm and I'm confident and I and that shows through to me, in the book, we're talking to Phil Phillip B Wilson, the author of The Leadership Playbook.

00:07:07:01 - 00:07:28:23
Kevin Eikenberry
And, and I, I hear some of that wisdom coming through, in the book. And we're going to get to all of that. I'm curious. So the book is called the Leader Shift Playbook, but the book's really about, as I said, in the open, it's really about four mindsets. And so why is it that mindset is where you went, in terms of crafting this book?

00:07:29:01 - 00:07:41:07
Phillip Wilson
Well, Kevin, the book, and you've written, you know, you've written books and you've, you've probably you've had this similar experience, hopefully not exactly my experience, but I wrote this book three times.

00:07:41:09 - 00:07:42:16
Kevin Eikenberry
I have not had that experience.

00:07:42:16 - 00:08:09:18
Phillip Wilson
Okay. Well, you that's because you're wiser and better than I am. So, the I wrote and I had an editing consultant that I had used on my last book, and she was wildly helpful. Her name is Janet Goldstein. She's amazing. So she worked with me on my last book, and. But instead of doing the smart thing, which would be go to your editor and go, hey, I've got this idea for a book and I want to, you know, what do you think about it?

00:08:09:18 - 00:08:32:18
Phillip Wilson
And what should we do instead? I just wrote another book, and that book was about a core theme that I'm sure we'll talk about, which is the hero assumption, but I so I wrote that book and I sent that book to Janet, and, and Janet said, yeah, like, I, I like what you're doing here, but you really need to start, you know, there's a framework that you need to kind of pull out of this.

00:08:32:20 - 00:08:58:09
Phillip Wilson
So then we did a whole second rewrite of the book, that which is where we first started talking about these different shifts and like how they, how they related. And, and then I sent that version to her and she said, I don't really see where you are in this book. Like, where have you applied these same shifts and, and in your own life?

00:08:58:11 - 00:09:19:01
Phillip Wilson
And that was a, that was a sabbatical week that I did a third rewrite, and I was really reflecting hard on my own leadership in my own life, in my own company. And, and I realized I was not really a very good leader. Like, I for my own. I was kind of the cobbler, you know, who's whose children have no shoes.

00:09:19:03 - 00:09:28:12
Phillip Wilson
And that was a that changed the book completely. I mean, I, I then the book you have in your hands is having read it.

00:09:28:12 - 00:09:31:05
Kevin Eikenberry
I'm confident that that's true now that I know this evolution. Right.

00:09:31:06 - 00:09:52:22
Phillip Wilson
Yeah. And the ideas were all the same. They were very important. I've trained them to other people for a long time. But I never really, truly reflected on, on am I doing them and and how well am I doing them. And we had just sort of come through, about a five year transformation in my own company where I was applying all these things.

00:09:53:02 - 00:10:02:09
Phillip Wilson
So I ended up leaving in the stories of other clients and other leaders that we've worked with, but also how I did this myself with my own team.

00:10:02:10 - 00:10:15:19
Kevin Eikenberry
Yeah. And that is all there. So if you're looking for a book that is, all research and no author, this isn't the book. So but having said that, there's.

00:10:15:22 - 00:10:18:05
Phillip Wilson
That was that was the first book, by the way.

00:10:18:07 - 00:10:47:04
Kevin Eikenberry
Okay. Well, there you go. So, there is some research, though, in the there's obviously research in the book, but there's something in the book that's a really important idea that I don't think 491 episodes in we've ever talked about here. And so, not that I'm presuming that anyone who has listened to all 491 here's, by the way, if you have listened to or if you can tell me honestly that you've listened to over 400, I'm going to send you a copy of Phil's book.

00:10:47:06 - 00:11:02:21
Kevin Eikenberry
And all you gotta do is email me, Kevin at Kevin, I can brain.com and tell me that, and I'll send you a copy of Phil's book. All right. Thank you. Copy and flexible leadership too. If you can honestly tell me that you've listened to Kevin, I better listen at least 400 episodes. But anyway. And none of that.

00:11:02:23 - 00:11:18:10
Kevin Eikenberry
I wasn't planning to say any of that, but there it is. And none of that. I don't think we've ever talked about the the Dunning-Kruger effect, and I like and because you talk about it and you do a great job of talking about it in the book, let's just talk about for a second, because I think it's important.

00:11:18:12 - 00:11:29:09
Kevin Eikenberry
And so you get the chance to share that with this audience. What what is it? And and really more importantly, why does it matter for us, to us as leaders?

00:11:29:11 - 00:11:51:18
Phillip Wilson
Yeah. So the Dunning-Kruger effect is this idea that when we know nothing about a complicated subject, and I don't think there's any more complicated subject than leadership, but it's certainly, you know, on the front row of the team picture of complex subjects that, when you don't know anything and you and you know, you don't know anything, that's a safe place to be, right?

00:11:51:18 - 00:12:12:10
Phillip Wilson
You you know, I'm aware that I know nothing about this subject, and it's really hard. So I'm not going to do dumb things. I'm not going to sort of, you know, jump in without asking people and or or learning more about it. You quickly, as you begin to learn about a complicated subject like leadership, you quickly end up to this place which is called Mount Stupid.

00:12:12:12 - 00:12:40:12
Phillip Wilson
So mounts stupid. Well go ahead. Yeah. On that curve is when you know some about this complicated subject and you're looking back to where you were at the beginning and you're like, well, I knew nothing, but now I know some stuff and wow, like, I have arrived. And that is called Mount Stupid because you really don't know very much, but you think you know a lot and you are going to make a lot of mistakes if you find yourself there.

00:12:40:13 - 00:12:46:23
Phillip Wilson
Which as you know, is chapter one of the book, where we begin with me at the top of Mount Stupid.

00:12:47:01 - 00:13:14:13
Kevin Eikenberry
Yeah. So, you know, look how smart I am. When everyone around you is. Go. Man. You have just gotten started, right? Yeah, just gotten started. And then, of course, we slide back eventually. The beautiful thing about this and I, I'd like to hope that I'm further down this curve at this point in my life and in my career where, measurably, I know a lot about this particular subject.

00:13:14:15 - 00:13:29:18
Kevin Eikenberry
And many people would say, I know a lot about this subject, and yet I realize I know less than maybe I've ever learned. Like, as we realize how complex it is, we realize how little we actually know.

00:13:29:20 - 00:13:52:01
Phillip Wilson
I mean, put yourself in my shoes for a second. I was just like you. Like going around the country training and teaching people about how to be a good leader. And I had like a whole book on it, and we do workshops and all this stuff, and I'm, I'm telling you how to do this leadership stuff. And I realize, wow, like, what a fraud.

00:13:52:03 - 00:14:15:20
Phillip Wilson
I don't do this at all with my own team. And that. So that's a, that's a that's a hard place to be. But if you if you do recognize look, this is learnable. It's something I can do. I've been teaching it so I know what to do. So this is a lot more. Am I going to do what I say you should do?

00:14:15:21 - 00:14:37:04
Phillip Wilson
And and that's not always easy. But I was in a place where I had a great team. And and here's the thing. It when you're a leader, you're like the product or like the service you're providing is leadership, right? And so just like any other, you know, customer service situation, you ask your customer, hey, how are we doing?

00:14:37:04 - 00:14:55:01
Phillip Wilson
Are we are we providing the service that you expected? Is there a way that we could do that service better? Is there some part of this service that you wish we would stop doing? That is leadership? Ask your team. They will tell you. They will give you all the steps to take to be the leader that they need.

00:14:55:03 - 00:15:16:14
Phillip Wilson
And that's the journey that I then went on with my own team. And as soon as you present like, hey, look, it's okay to give me negative feedback, it's okay to tell me I can do a better job. You will, you'll get all the all the to do's that you need. And if you just do them, then you're you're winning.

00:15:16:16 - 00:15:39:10
Kevin Eikenberry
You're heading in the right direction for sure. So the book talks about four mindsets, which I said from the start and, and I promised we'd talk about. And they're all about beliefs. Yes. Right. So your leader shifts, if you will, are all about beliefs. And we're going to dive into him. But believe believe in ourselves, believe in others, believe in our,

00:15:39:12 - 00:15:41:10
Phillip Wilson
Your impact is the first one.

00:15:41:10 - 00:16:04:12
Kevin Eikenberry
I'm this. I miss the person. Believe in your impact. Believe in your impact. Believe in yourself. Believe in others. Believe in your relationships. We're talking about each of them. I want to actually start with believe in yourself. Because as it relates to what you were just saying, it's the second one of the four. But I'm going to start there because, when you found when you realized when you came to this moment of the emperor, Emperor has no shoes.

00:16:04:14 - 00:16:07:10
Kevin Eikenberry
I'm guessing that your belief in yourself took a hit.

00:16:07:12 - 00:16:08:06
Phillip Wilson
Oh, yeah.

00:16:08:08 - 00:16:29:21
Kevin Eikenberry
So. And I and I've written a lot over the years, and there's a, there's a good bit in my new book about confidence, which is obviously in part related to and self. So let's start with that one. We'll come back to impact in a second. Talk to someone who maybe is having some challenges with believing in themselves, especially as a leader.

00:16:29:23 - 00:16:34:15
Kevin Eikenberry
What what are you whispering into their ear right now?

00:16:34:17 - 00:16:59:11
Phillip Wilson
So a couple of the the like the big idea of that chapter is around the, like bias. So like we have the certain just, you know, there's shortcuts that we take in life that we will repeat negative behavior and we will repeat mistakes, because that's just like the pattern that we have. And two of the ones that I talk about.

00:16:59:14 - 00:17:21:07
Phillip Wilson
So one of them is actor observer. So actor observer is just if I, if something happens to me, you know, it's the it's the external world that has created this situation. And I did the best that I could to kind of deal with it. But if that same if I observe that same situation with someone else, like they're flawed in some way, right.

00:17:21:09 - 00:17:46:23
Phillip Wilson
So you have to understand and, and by the way, sometimes sort of we're like observing ourselves in a, in a, in a, in a, in a little twist of that, like you're, you're you. So you have to get into the mode of catching yourself going. Look, the reason that I'm facing this problem is not the like I'm a failure or the reason that this individual has this problem is not because they're a failure.

00:17:47:01 - 00:18:06:12
Phillip Wilson
There are there are obstacles that get in your way. And this leads you to the next chapters on the hero's journey. But you know, the you know when you know when Frodo has a problem on his quest. Gandalf doesn't just, like, pop in and go, what an idiot, right? He he helps the. He helps him remove the obstacle.

00:18:06:14 - 00:18:34:03
Phillip Wilson
And and that's that's the trick you have to make in your brain is that when you see someone that's struggling or whatever. What? What can I do? I know that I can help them remove that obstacle. So that's a belief in yourself. And then the the second component of that is called confirmation bias. So confirmation bias is once I once I get an idea in my head about like this individual or, you know, about myself, I start there.

00:18:34:03 - 00:18:34:20
Kevin Eikenberry
It is again.

00:18:35:00 - 00:18:35:17
Phillip Wilson
Yes, there.

00:18:35:17 - 00:18:36:23
Kevin Eikenberry
It is again.

00:18:37:01 - 00:19:02:05
Phillip Wilson
Right? I yep, I start looking for evidence. I only see evidence. This is the thing that's crazy about this sort of mind bug is I ignore any evidence to the contrary, and I only accept evidence that proves what I'm thinking. And so this is where your self-confidence is really important. You. If you if you start to believe in yourself, then you will begin to see evidence that that that's a good assumption to make about yourself.

00:19:02:10 - 00:19:05:07
Phillip Wilson
And if you don't, that's the only evidence you're going to see.

00:19:05:09 - 00:19:21:16
Kevin Eikenberry
Yeah. What about what do you say to someone? I'm sure in a workshop someone has said this to you. Well, what about can't we can we believe in ourselves too much like the whole conundrum of confidence but not being overconfident. What would you say to someone about that fear?

00:19:21:20 - 00:19:39:13
Phillip Wilson
Yeah. This is. I mean, you have to have some humility, right? You have to, you know, you don't want to, like, beat yourself up all the time, but like you, you you must live in that world. Going back to Dunning-Kruger, where you do not have all the answers and you are constantly learning. And this is you know, it.

00:19:39:19 - 00:19:57:03
Phillip Wilson
And look, it's a moving target too, right? Like when you're leading a team, this this is, this is the point of your book. You know, you can't just be like one person to everybody. You have to be flexible. You have to, you know, you got to be the leader that this person needs at this point in their life.

00:19:57:04 - 00:20:18:08
Phillip Wilson
Right? And that changes over time. So that that's the other, you know, component to it is you have to be humble enough to go. Yeah. The formula that I did that worked over here isn't the answer. I'm going to have to ask for help. I'm going to have to ask my team to help me be the leader that they need me to be.

00:20:18:10 - 00:20:27:12
Phillip Wilson
And if you're if you're in a mindset where you already have all the answers that you are at the top of Mount Stupid.

00:20:27:14 - 00:20:51:07
Kevin Eikenberry
And then, of course, we only want to hire people who aren't as smart as us, which doesn't. And that just compounds the problem. So I said we would go back, to the first of the mind shifts, the first of the mindsets, which is which is believe in our impact. So what do you mean by that? And what's the what's the mindset that we need to adopt in this area around our impact?

00:20:51:09 - 00:21:02:15
Phillip Wilson
Yeah. Going back to what you just said, the you know, it. So the one problem is a lot of times we hire people that are, you know, we think are dumber than us, just so that, you know, they don't show us up. We whether the.

00:21:02:15 - 00:21:03:18
Kevin Eikenberry
Smartest person in the room.

00:21:03:20 - 00:21:24:12
Phillip Wilson
Right. But the other problem is we hire people that have never done leadership before. This is such a common issue with frontline leaders, people that are high performers in the doing a task but have never done leadership before. And then you throw them in and you're just like, change the color of their shirt and go like you're a leader.

00:21:24:12 - 00:21:45:08
Phillip Wilson
Now. And that's not the way that that works. And, and you end up creating all kinds of horrible, you know, leadership problems when you do that. Because first of all, go back to actor observer. I see someone that's struggling and I'm like, really good at that job because I just I was the best performer doing it right before I got this job.

00:21:45:08 - 00:22:10:19
Phillip Wilson
And everyone's an idiot, right. And, and and so then I start managing by going, like, you don't even know how to do your job. I am not leading at that point. And you're also upsetting, you know, your entire department and anyone who has an option, it quits and goes to work for your competitors. And then the only you know, then you're just left with terrible performers that don't have any other options.

00:22:10:21 - 00:22:30:03
Phillip Wilson
It's not a good place to be organizationally. So the belief in your impact, Kevin, is, the way I describe it in the chapter is like the placebo effect and the nocebo effect. So everyone kind of understands placebo. This is this is where I think this is going to cure me. And a sugar pill, actually, we'll we'll do it.

00:22:30:05 - 00:22:50:00
Phillip Wilson
Well, the opposite is also true. Which is if I tell you that this sugar pill is got side effects, you're going to have some muscle cramps. You might have an upset stomach, you might get a little bit, dizzy if I give you a sugar pill and tell you it has those side effects. A good chunk of people will have those side effects.

00:22:50:00 - 00:23:16:06
Phillip Wilson
The brain body connection is is incredibly complex. And and that is the way leadership works, too. Like, if you are a nocebo effect leader. Going back to confirmation bias, every time I see something, it's just like, oh, boy, there they go again. You are having a negative impact on every interaction, around you. And that can be words you say.

00:23:16:06 - 00:23:36:23
Phillip Wilson
It will be your body language and and the way you behave around people. It'll be what you will allow them to do without, you know, jumping in and letting letting them sort of do what you need them to do. There's a lot of negative things that happen there. And so the the lesson I have in that chapter is just basically, look, you you are having an impact.

00:23:37:01 - 00:23:48:05
Phillip Wilson
There's no like neutral zone. You are one way or the other. You're impacting people and you need to make sure that you're more of that placebo leader versus the nocebo leader.

00:23:48:07 - 00:24:10:19
Kevin Eikenberry
Yeah, that the impact that you're the waves that you're making, that the ripples that you're leaving are helping, and not hurting. Right. Yeah. Right. So the third of the four is belief in others. And then the last is belief in relationships. I want to talk about believe in others and to do that, this is one of the places in the book where I was nodding my head and go, yep, we're right.

00:24:10:19 - 00:24:19:20
Kevin Eikenberry
We're in lockstep alignment here. And then you told a story about a man I'd never heard of before. And.

00:24:19:22 - 00:24:21:07
Phillip Wilson
By Daniel Kish.

00:24:21:09 - 00:24:35:09
Kevin Eikenberry
There it is. It's on the screen. So talk about so, so real quick about why the mindset of believing in others matters so much. And then and then illustrate that by telling us a little bit about Daniel. Yeah.

00:24:35:11 - 00:24:53:15
Phillip Wilson
So the, the mindset shift here is, is the hero assumption. You have to believe nobody wakes up in the morning, you know, brushing their teeth, looking in the mirror, going like, I cannot wait to get to work because I want to screw everything up. And I feel like today's the day that I can mess up 100%. So nobody's like that.

00:24:53:16 - 00:25:15:04
Phillip Wilson
We wake up, we're not the villain of the story. We're the hero of the story. And if you have that assumption about your team, you will behave differently around them. You're going to just what we were just talking about. You will say different words to them. You will believe in them. You'll believe in them even when they are struggling and maybe don't believe in themselves.

00:25:15:06 - 00:25:42:04
Phillip Wilson
And that is the hero assumption. And then the story I tell about Daniel Kish. So this is we call this becoming Batman. This is the, the the subhead of this chapter. So Daniel Kish is an incredible human. He was born without sight. His eyes were its eyes were completely removed before he was one. And so he's non sighted his entire life.

00:25:42:06 - 00:26:17:03
Phillip Wilson
But his parents refused to treat him like a blind child. And so they let him play on playgrounds with his brothers and his friends. They, they, they didn't, like, coddle him and put him in, you know, a bubble to prevent him from experiencing the same things that that normal sighted kids experience every day. And I am sure a lot of parents were aghast at the things that they let this child do.

00:26:17:05 - 00:26:21:08
Phillip Wilson
But what happened is miraculous. So Daniel Kelly.

00:26:21:08 - 00:26:24:22
Kevin Eikenberry
Is like I was, first of all, do you know him?

00:26:25:00 - 00:26:27:00
Phillip Wilson
I don't know him, no.

00:26:27:02 - 00:26:39:12
Kevin Eikenberry
Now I'm disappointed because this was a first hand story. This what you're about to hear about is amazing. So you've got the story of Daniel. You know, the background. And now tell us about what Daniel can do.

00:26:39:17 - 00:26:40:00
Phillip Wilson
Yeah.

00:26:40:00 - 00:26:41:07
Kevin Eikenberry
And what he does in the world.

00:26:41:11 - 00:27:20:06
Phillip Wilson
It's truly miraculous. So because his parents allowed him just to sort of, like, run around like a normal child, he had to figure out how he's going to how he could navigate in that world. Right. And I am sure he, like, ran into playground equipment and ran into trees and but so do sighted kids, you know, and he eventually figured out that if by clicking his tongue, he could, he could hear the sound bouncing off of things around him, and that became much like, that's not something that's unusual to, to, you know, to non sighted people.

00:27:20:12 - 00:27:48:21
Phillip Wilson
But he was able to refine that, like to the point where it was it was activating the same receptors in the brain that activate when you see something. And so he was he was able to basically create sonar that allowed him to navigate in the world. And he developed that so well. He can ride a bike. He can't, you know, he can, you can put him on a hike on a trail in the woods, and he won't, like, fall off of a cliff.

00:27:48:21 - 00:28:08:06
Phillip Wilson
And he can, like, do that, on his own. He. You can sit him on a park bench, and he can draw a picture of everything that's going on around that park, even if he's never been in it before. Without, like, going and feeling things like he can he can just do the sound. Reflections tell like, oh, there's a playground equipment over there, and there's a tree over there.

00:28:08:08 - 00:28:37:23
Phillip Wilson
And so I tell that story and that story by itself is miraculous. But the point that I'm making is that it's not just Daniel that's miraculous. You know, when you think about the hero assumption, his parents were the ones that believed in him, that believed he could, and I'm sure they never dreamed he would, like, develop sonar. But they were they believed.

00:28:37:23 - 00:28:43:01
Kevin Eikenberry
That he could do things that. Yes, that they might not understand. Just start.

00:28:43:01 - 00:29:03:23
Phillip Wilson
Right. And and they believed they weren't going to treat him different and they didn't. And then he sort of worked out the rest of this, but that that was the hero assumption. And, and the point that I'm making there is miraculous things can happen if you just believe in others and you don't treat them, you know, like they can't do something.

00:29:03:23 - 00:29:26:08
Phillip Wilson
Because if his parents had treated him like, like an any other blind child, you know, he would be operating the world like any other blind child. So, so they really deserve a lot of, you know, credit. And that is kind of a heroic, you know, story. I'm sure that they were many times frowned upon for the way they raised Daniel.

00:29:26:10 - 00:29:55:04
Kevin Eikenberry
I'm confident of, I'm sure people are thinking about even that, even as we're having this conversation, right? That they're thinking about that. Yeah. The fourth of the I'm looking at the clock and the fourth of the, of the mindset shifts, the leader shifts is about believing in your relationships. And you talk a lot there about things that I think not to not to disrespect this in relationship to others.

00:29:55:07 - 00:30:12:07
Kevin Eikenberry
But you have some great stuff there about psychological safety and a lot of things that I think are, are really well covered in other places. And I'm not saying that because we shouldn't read it in your book, but I, I made choices here about how we wanted to spend our time. And so, I hope you're okay with that.

00:30:12:11 - 00:30:24:00
Kevin Eikenberry
Yeah, that all of that. And having us now talk to at least a little bit about each of the four, is there something we didn't talk about or you want to say, before I take us into the final portion of our conversation?

00:30:24:02 - 00:30:43:09
Phillip Wilson
I mean, I, you know, the sum up of that, of that fourth one is that there are things that your team is asking, but they aren't saying it out loud. And what they need to hear are answers to these three questions. And they're simple, but they're so powerful, which is, do you like me? Do you think I have what it takes?

00:30:43:11 - 00:31:06:07
Phillip Wilson
And do you think I'm worth the effort? And if you can help them answer those questions, if you can be be saying and doing the things that express to them, I like you. I think you have what it takes. You're worth the time and the effort. You know, they will run through walls for you and that that's that's how you build connection and how you build strong, strong relationships.

00:31:06:09 - 00:31:27:01
Kevin Eikenberry
We all want to follow someone that we know, like, and trust. Those questions help. Help the other person realize or know that we know, like, and trust them. And that just moves, moves us a great, ways down the road of being more effective for ourselves and for our teams. The leader shifts and now we have that playbook.

00:31:27:01 - 00:31:38:20
Kevin Eikenberry
So a couple things before we finish up, Phil. One is I'm really curious. I'm really shifting gears now for the last couple of questions like, what do you do for fun?

00:31:38:22 - 00:31:56:19
Phillip Wilson
I like to play golf, although unfortunately, I've been traveling so much with the book launch and, and just the day job, I have not I. I was supposed to go on a golf trip. So the only time I've touched my golf clubs this quarter is I, I packed my clubs for a golf trip that I had to cancel.

00:31:56:21 - 00:31:59:14
Phillip Wilson
So I love to play golf. That's step one.

00:31:59:14 - 00:32:04:21
Kevin Eikenberry
Pack the clubs to take them out at the course. Right back at the house.

00:32:04:21 - 00:32:15:15
Phillip Wilson
Exactly. I love to read. I, I'm a, you know, I'm a big, big reader, and that's that's another hobby. But, yeah, those are those are my my main things for fun.

00:32:15:17 - 00:32:23:12
Kevin Eikenberry
And by the way, everybody on the day that we're having this conversation, it's Phil's birthday. So I'm hoping the Phil that for your birthday maybe you can get to go out and do some golfing sometime.

00:32:23:12 - 00:32:31:07
Phillip Wilson
I am I am going to the guy that I canceled the golf trip with. I'm going to have dinner with, so at least I will see him. I but, yeah, I'm not going to play today.

00:32:31:13 - 00:32:46:04
Kevin Eikenberry
Well, hopefully he'll give you a hard time about he will. So, so you chose me over golf? I'm impressed. Or or, you know, maybe that was bad judgment. I'll leave that to you to decide. You mentioned reading, and that's the only thing you knew. I was going to ask you. So, what are you reading these days?

00:32:46:05 - 00:32:47:12
Kevin Eikenberry
What are you reading right now?

00:32:47:14 - 00:33:06:10
Phillip Wilson
I am on a path. I talk in the book a lot about this. The EOS process that we we use to run our business. And I recently went to a conference that they put on, that is that, you know, just teaching different components of that. And part of that conferences, there was like everyone had a book there.

00:33:06:12 - 00:33:32:15
Phillip Wilson
And so I read I read two books that came out of there. One of them was called data. And this is kind of part of the EOS process, but it's all around how you keep score and and what do you do to, you know, to, to keep score in your company? And I really enjoyed that one. I then also read a book on sales called outgrow that is going back to this fourth shift on relationships.

00:33:32:15 - 00:33:55:05
Phillip Wilson
This is kind of a a sales process that it's all built around building strong connections and relationships. And then I'm, I'm one of those weird people. I also have a third book on which is on audible that I listen to, and I drive back and forth to work, and that one is called Finish Big. Which, which I again, going back to sort of how am I thinking about running our business?

00:33:55:07 - 00:34:14:07
Kevin Eikenberry
We will have, links to all three of those, as well as Phil's book, The Leader Shift Playbook for Simple Changes to score big and Unleash your team potential will have all links to all of that on in the show notes. Make sure you go there to find all of those things. Before we before we wrap up, where do you want to point people?

00:34:14:07 - 00:34:21:20
Kevin Eikenberry
Phil? Where can they learn more now? Where do you want to point them? In relationship to the book and your business and all those sorts of things.

00:34:21:22 - 00:34:46:14
Phillip Wilson
Yeah. The easiest place to start is go to your leader, shift com, so just your leader shift.com. That's the easiest place I'm, I'm on LinkedIn. You know, Filby Wilson on LinkedIn. I, you know Amazon is a place to buy the book if you look just look up the leader shift. You'll find that so that those are those are easy coordinates.

00:34:46:16 - 00:35:04:21
Kevin Eikenberry
And we'll have those in the show notes as well for you. Everybody, as you probably are aware, before I say goodbye to Phil, I have a question for all of you who are watching or probably more of you later listening. And it's the most important question I could ask you right now. Now what what action will you take as a result?

00:35:04:21 - 00:35:32:15
Kevin Eikenberry
Maybe there's some more books you're going to buy as a result of being here. But beyond that, in all seriousness, what ideas did you hear today that struck you in a way where you need to take some action? What action will you take as a result of being here? If you don't take action, if you just come here to collect knowledge, then well, that's better than than some things we could collect, I suppose, but it's not the same as taking action.

00:35:32:17 - 00:35:52:14
Kevin Eikenberry
So. Oh, I'm. I always want to help people close the knowing doing gap. And the only way you're going to close the knowing, doing gap from this conversation is to answer that question. Now what what will I do with what I got? And if you do that, that your chances of success, your chances of making a shift as a leader go way up.

00:35:52:16 - 00:35:57:08
Kevin Eikenberry
Phil, thanks so much for being here. It was a pleasure to have you, really appreciate the time we had to hit today.

00:35:57:12 - 00:36:00:01
Phillip Wilson
Yeah. Thanks so much. I appreciate it, Kevin.

00:36:00:03 - 00:36:25:09
Kevin Eikenberry
And so for you, everybody, that means we're done today. But there are 490 episodes back. Remember I gave you that offer. If you if you've watched over four, listen to over 400. I want to know. And I've got gifts for you. But in all seriousness, whether this is your 400th, or your fourth or your first episode, know that we will be back next week with another episode of Remarkable Leadership Podcast, and I hope you'll join us.

00:36:25:12 - 00:36:25:20
Kevin Eikenberry
Then.