The Remarkable Leadership Podcast

00:00:08:18 - 00:00:40:02
Kevin Eikenberry
One bad apple. One drop of poison. One toxic leader. They all have something in common, right? And today, we're talking about toxic leadership. How to recognize it in ourselves as well as others. And more importantly, how to stop the poison from spreading. Toxic leadership is a negative reality, but it is a reality. And while this show is all about much more often about things that are positive, that will be our focus here too.

00:00:40:02 - 00:01:02:11
Kevin Eikenberry
As we talk about moving past the toxic to healthier leaders, healthier teams, and healthier organizations. Welcome to another episode of the Remarkable Leadership Podcast, where we are helping leaders grow personally and professionally to lead more effectively and make a bigger, positive difference for their teams, organizations, and the world. If you are listening to this podcast, you could be with us in the future.

00:01:02:13 - 00:01:30:16
Kevin Eikenberry
Live on your favorite social media platform. You can find out when those are going to take place and how to join us by joining our Facebook or LinkedIn group. So we are on other channels as well. Just go to those groups to learn more. That would be at remarkable podcast.com/facebook or remarkable podcast.com/linkedin. Simple as that. Today's episode is brought to you by our remarkable master classes.

00:01:30:17 - 00:01:54:05
Kevin Eikenberry
Pick from 13 important life and leadership skills to help you become a more effective, productive, and confident leader while overcoming some of the toughest challenges you face. Learn more and sign up at Remarkable Master class.com. And with that, let me bring in our guest. There he is in all his smiling glory. His name is John Clemson. He is a coach.

00:01:54:07 - 00:02:16:15
Kevin Eikenberry
He is certified in scrum, agile and Leadership Coaching. He has been an agile coach for many years at companies like PayPal, Cisco and Nike, among others. Since 2021, he has led his own coaching firm, Motivated Outcomes. He is also the author of One Drop of Poison How One Bad Leader Can Slowly Kill Your Company. He resides in Beaverton, Oregon.

00:02:16:17 - 00:02:23:04
Kevin Eikenberry
It's sunny there today. He's my guest, and I'm glad to have him. Shawn. Thanks for being here.

00:02:23:06 - 00:02:25:17
Sean Lemson
Thank you so much for having me, Kevin.

00:02:25:19 - 00:02:48:19
Kevin Eikenberry
so let's start. I'd like to start all the things I've learned in my life and in doing this podcast now is that when we learn a little bit more about someone, it really helps, make the rest of it go better. So just obviously I'll give a little bit about your background, but what what's the journey that led you to deciding to write a book and, and just give us that very quickly?

00:02:48:19 - 00:02:52:09
Kevin Eikenberry
Like, how do you end up in this spot, Shawn?

00:02:52:11 - 00:03:19:06
Sean Lemson
Well, I would say that, you know, like many things, I at least the way I operate is a lot of the things I do are born of frustration. Right? I have had many toxic leaders in my past. and so, so that coupled with a bit of an interest in psychology that I have always had pretty much going way back, has always had me paying attention to not just, oh, wow, I have a toxic leader, but how is this person toxic?

00:03:19:06 - 00:03:35:03
Sean Lemson
Like, what is making them toxic? Why are my coworkers and I conspiring against them at the water cooler? And when are the good leaders the ones that cause the opposite behavior that make us all want to work nights and weekends and think about the problems to the company in our showers? You know,

00:03:35:05 - 00:03:37:06
Kevin Eikenberry
I read in the book.

00:03:37:08 - 00:03:58:11
Sean Lemson
I yes, I have that story. I call it shower time. but, you know, so, so these kinds of situations kind of, spread the negative side of it, I think the frustration side. And then there was another part that happened, which is I have read hundreds of leadership books, as I'm sure you have as well, and a lot of them, you even mentioned it in the intro there.

00:03:58:11 - 00:04:20:16
Sean Lemson
The a lot of them have a very positive spin to them. Like, you know, here's here are the five things you need to do to be a great leader. And there are many of those. And what I find myself doing when I'm reading these books is screaming at them. Who are you writing this to? Because by the time someone cares enough to pick up this book and invest 200 pages of reading, they're already in the mindset of, I'm going.

00:04:20:17 - 00:04:40:00
Sean Lemson
I'm trying to be a better leader. And what I'm trying to do address is there's there are leaders who just don't know they're toxic. They and I couldn't find a book that really addressed it from that angle. Right. And so I decided to write mine as a sort of a table of contents to all the other leadership books out there.

00:04:40:00 - 00:04:47:13
Sean Lemson
But starting from a, we'll say it from the negative side of the cynical side, we move to optimism ultimately, but I'll start there.

00:04:47:14 - 00:05:01:09
Kevin Eikenberry
So since you mentioned the shower story, I'm not going to ask you to tell it. People need to get the copy of the book to do that. But I told my wife once I wanted to put a whiteboard in the shower. and she nixed it anyway, so there you have it. she did not think that was a good idea.

00:05:01:09 - 00:05:02:20
Kevin Eikenberry
It didn't go with her esthetic.

00:05:02:20 - 00:05:06:15
Sean Lemson
And some of the best ideas come in the shower. I, I fully support this idea of.

00:05:06:15 - 00:05:22:03
Kevin Eikenberry
Mowing lawn, driving my car. we can have that whole conversation, but that's another episode. So, Sean, since I mentioned it in The Open and you've already mentioned it as well, let's just from the expert, that being you, what is toxic leadership?

00:05:22:05 - 00:05:41:23
Sean Lemson
Yeah, this is an important question. because when some people hear the word toxic leadership, they think of the worst boss they've ever had. Right? And I am actually using the word toxic to describe a bit of poison. It's one of the reasons why I called the book One Drop of Poison. You know, one drop of poison in a gallon of water.

00:05:41:23 - 00:06:06:19
Sean Lemson
You'd get sick, but it wouldn't just like, croak, you know, after one sip. The idea here is a toxic leader can be somebody who is behaving in a way that is toxic to human motivation. Right? People who are. And that that can feel right. We can talk about feeling right versus being right, but you know, you're you're a leader.

00:06:06:19 - 00:06:28:03
Sean Lemson
You don't wake up every day thinking, how can I destroy my team's every day, right? You're not waking up going, yes, what can I do today to make everybody hate me? Right? You're just what you're doing is you're working in an environment, in a culture with incentives, sometimes financial incentives, sometimes, you know, but marching orders nonetheless from up on high and you just think you're doing the right thing to get those objectives met.

00:06:28:05 - 00:06:44:15
Sean Lemson
But I'm arguing that there's a way to get those objectives met in a way that makes it so your team doesn't want to quit afterwards. And, that's that's the idea. If you're behaving in a way that makes you half your team want to quit after you accomplish your goals, then you're leading in a toxic way.

00:06:44:17 - 00:07:03:21
Kevin Eikenberry
I think your your analogy of one drop of poison, it's not like, no, it's not. It doesn't kill you instantly, but it's uncomfortable at a minimum. And so so I think the other piece of that is that, you mentioned it's not necessarily about ill intent on the,

00:07:03:22 - 00:07:04:15
Sean Lemson
That's right.

00:07:04:16 - 00:07:29:20
Kevin Eikenberry
face. And it isn't, always that they're the most awful leader ever. We all would recognize those. It's this more insidious, smaller, specific things. We'll get some of that a little bit. But why? I put it this way. How big is this problem? Like, we we're all sort of nodding our heads here a little bit, but you've got some stuff in the book you talk about about like how widespread, how big of an issue.

00:07:29:20 - 00:07:38:03
Kevin Eikenberry
Why put it in another way, why should organizations worry about this?

00:07:38:05 - 00:07:56:08
Sean Lemson
Well, it's I have a belief that people give you their best when they're motivated, when they want to, when they want to be there for you. And they and they believe in the mission of your company. So I feel like the problem is we measure the the success of that, but we don't measure the failure of it. Right?

00:07:56:08 - 00:08:17:00
Sean Lemson
The failure is very insidious, you know, high turnover, which, you know, I've seen many HR representatives write off as, oh, this is non regretted turnover. You know, these are people who were upset or they were bad apples or we didn't care. They're gone. That to me is a cop out. some of the most. This is one of the mistakes that people make.

00:08:17:00 - 00:08:47:19
Sean Lemson
They think they confuse the word engaged with happy. Okay. You're engaged. Employees aren't necessarily your happiest employees. In fact, you're engaged. Employees could be the most unhappy employees. But if they are speaking to you about it, if they are trying to make it right, they're trying to make it better, engage. Yeah. And so so what I think the mistake people make is that we've got these upset people who make waves, and then they leave and we go, good riddance, you know?

00:08:47:19 - 00:09:01:11
Sean Lemson
But we're like, no, you just let go of some of the most engaged employees you had and taught everyone else. It didn't matter. I shouldn't speak up, which is one of the reasons why this is poison that spreads. Right? Is it just. Yeah.

00:09:01:13 - 00:09:25:20
Kevin Eikenberry
No, I get it. I mean, we haven't used the word culture yet, but fundamentally, what happens is the culture around that leader grows, that I always say, Sean, all the time that leaders are teaching people how to work with them every day, like, and and if what they're learning is that I gotta keep my mouth shut or whatever those things might be, then, then that's having that ripple effect.

00:09:25:20 - 00:09:31:03
Kevin Eikenberry
It's having a cultural making cultural change in that team, at least, if not more.

00:09:31:03 - 00:10:00:18
Sean Lemson
Right. yeah. So and one of the reasons why it spreads is because we have, we have a we can talk about this later, but we have a mindset about leadership. And we and that mindset tells us what feels right to us, even though we could be wrong. But it feels right. Okay. And we will if we're in a position of to be able to bring in other leaders or promote people into leadership positions, we tend to bring in people who share our mindset about leadership.

00:10:00:20 - 00:10:12:13
Sean Lemson
So if we have a toxic mindset about leadership, we will promote and bring in people who have the same toxic mindset about leadership, which is exactly why it spreads like like poison.

00:10:12:15 - 00:10:41:05
Kevin Eikenberry
Exactly. So, in the book, and I don't want to spend a long time here, but I think it'll be kind of fun. You talk about styles or archetypes of toxic leaders. I think you have ten and we don't have time for ten. so but I want you to pick 1 or 2. So let's just like, what's the what's the one of these that when you talk about it, you get the most nods and oh my gosh, or whatever, like pick one of these toxic styles because and I want people to, to to listen because and I really want you all to listen.

00:10:41:05 - 00:10:55:22
Kevin Eikenberry
Not from the perspective of, oh yeah, I know one of those, but is this me? more on that later. But but, give us let's just start there. Give us one that you get the most sort of knowing head nods about when you talk about it.

00:10:56:00 - 00:11:18:03
Sean Lemson
Sure. I think if I had to pick two, I would pick the chess master and the peacock. So we'll talk about the chess master first. The chess master is somebody who believes that leadership is a privilege that they've earned through, because they think they're smarter than everyone else. Maybe they were promoted because they had the best answer one time, or they performed really well as an individual contributor.

00:11:18:03 - 00:11:39:10
Sean Lemson
And so now they've been promoted into this position of authority where they think they are there because of a privilege. Those ten, types of leaders are, it's very disempowering to work for a chess master because the chess master thinks their answer is the right answer. So they're the ones solving the problem and telling the team what to do.

00:11:39:10 - 00:12:00:01
Sean Lemson
If you're if you work for a chess master, you will feel like a piece of, like a chess piece on a board. you'll be just told what you're basically a set of hands for that person's brain, and they will disappear, and they will make some big decisions that impact you and your team formation. And then they'll just pop out and tell you what it is, what, what you're all going to be doing.

00:12:00:07 - 00:12:19:08
Sean Lemson
You got no vote, you got no feedback, you no invitation, nothing. So, chess masters have a very difficult time holding on to expert level employees, because those are folks that don't want to be a set of hands. They want to be a brain. that's the that's a quick chess master. I could go way longer on that one.

00:12:19:10 - 00:12:39:10
Sean Lemson
The, the peacock is somebody I think other people will relate to. This is a boss who who I like to. I call him the Peacock. Because when they go to their boss, they spread their feathers and talk about how wonderful everything is, how great their team is, and how great all. And it's all because of their brilliant leadership.

00:12:39:15 - 00:12:59:21
Sean Lemson
Meanwhile, the team wants to quit. They can't stand this leader. And so because when when they're not in front of their leader, the feathers come back. And I guess you could mix a metaphor here and say the fangs come out, right? I mean, these these, peacocks will turn towards their teams and treat them terribly to get, to make themselves look better upward.

00:13:00:02 - 00:13:21:20
Sean Lemson
And by the way, this is an important thing about peacocks. Peacocks only work if the culture at your company rewards that kind of thing. So if you are if if the peacocks leader is impressed and wowed by these amazing PowerPoint decks and never digs in to find out that your engagement scores stink, then that's the shame on that leader, right?

00:13:21:20 - 00:13:28:15
Sean Lemson
For not actually holding their own direct reports accountable for employee engagement.

00:13:28:17 - 00:13:51:18
Kevin Eikenberry
So there's two. There are eight more in the book. but but my question and, and I noticed that as I was, saying this, I could see you, while I was doing the, the intro, and I could see you nodding when I said, and how do we recognize these things in ourselves? So let's go there. Like.

00:13:51:20 - 00:14:11:22
Kevin Eikenberry
Everyone who's here, like, we're kind of preaching to the choir, Shawn. Right? The people that are here, it's like you said, the person that decides to read the leadership book probably has 80% of the way there, or they wouldn't be reading it because they already care. They already want to. Same thing with people listening here. Like they they're probably all of you are probably doing relatively well.

00:14:12:00 - 00:14:25:00
Kevin Eikenberry
But the question is how do we find out? How do we figure out, how do we know if we're doing even little things that are like those little drops of poison, like, how do we know? How do we see?

00:14:25:00 - 00:14:41:00
Sean Lemson
So yeah, this is a lot like blood pressure, right? I mean, you could have high blood pressure and not know it. So how would you know that you had high blood pressure. You would measure it. Right. And this is one of the reasons why they measure it. When you go in every time to see the doctor, because they're trying to see whether you have it.

00:14:41:02 - 00:15:06:15
Sean Lemson
So one of the first mistakes that companies make is they don't check engagement. Or when they do, they're doing it to check a box, not to actually do something with the results. And to do an engagement check the proper way. You want an anonymity at the individual person level, but the assessment has to be coded in such a way that you can at least see organizations.

00:15:06:17 - 00:15:25:23
Sean Lemson
So you need to be able to see, do I have low engagement across the company or do I have low engagement just in this one division of the company? Right. Or how where does it where does it start getting bad? Because that leader is the one who needs the coaching right. and so measure that's the first thing.

00:15:26:00 - 00:15:44:13
Sean Lemson
The other thing that I would say is that, when people ask me this question all the time, what are the top five traits of all leaders? In fact, I asked this as a trick question to leaders I'm coaching, you know, what do you think all leaders have? And they always name off, you know, courage, vision, initiative, you know, whatever.

00:15:44:13 - 00:15:58:21
Sean Lemson
All the things that we think of as great leadership traits. but the reality is what good leaders, what all leaders have is followers. And not everybody who is who has direct reports has followers. Right?

00:15:59:03 - 00:16:01:19
Kevin Eikenberry
They might have you don't have any followers. You're just taking a walk.

00:16:01:21 - 00:16:21:18
Sean Lemson
That's right. You're just a manager. You're not actually leading anyone. Right. And by the way, conversely, you can be a leader and not have any direct reports, right? They're just people who see you as someone they would follow. So when someone asks me, what do all leaders have? I usually tell them, well, who would you follow? What traits are in a person you would follow?

00:16:21:19 - 00:16:44:05
Sean Lemson
Because that's the traits that we want in our leaders, right? So another way you can tell you're toxic is if you don't have any followers, if you look over and people, you know, if you walk into a room and everybody suddenly gets quiet, right, that's a bad sign. If you take an engagement survey and nobody participates in the survey at all, that's a bad sign.

00:16:44:07 - 00:17:00:16
Sean Lemson
If you if you take an engagement survey and everybody gives you a perfect ten, that is a bad sign. I'm sorry, I hate to say it, but I ask. I do check on perfect scores, because that can also indicate a safety problem. In fact, a really bad one. Yeah. So yeah, that's.

00:17:00:16 - 00:17:06:02
Kevin Eikenberry
How you can tell a safety problem or a trust problem like this isn't really going to be unanimous. So I can't really. Yeah.

00:17:06:08 - 00:17:13:04
Sean Lemson
Exactly. Something there's some perception that this is not safe thing for me to give feedback about.

00:17:13:06 - 00:17:29:11
Kevin Eikenberry
So yeah, I love that, what I want to do, I want to get to several things yet before we're done. But one of the things I like to do, Sean, is I like to find something in the book I really like. that isn't maybe. I mean, what I'm going to talk about is something that that is in the book, for sure.

00:17:29:13 - 00:17:54:20
Kevin Eikenberry
It's not like a major topic in the book, but it is something that you and I talked about before we actually started. because when I read it, I never I never heard of this law. And when I read it, it was like, you know, profoundly true. So talk to us about Good Hearts law, because it ends up being one of the things that is one of those things that, can really spread.

00:17:54:20 - 00:17:57:14
Kevin Eikenberry
And again, I think often unintentionally.

00:17:57:16 - 00:18:18:06
Sean Lemson
This is a primary example of, of something that's an unintentional thing. So we lots of leaders think that it's their job to lead their teams to a goal by just setting targets. They think it's their their job is if I just set a target, y'all will march towards that. You'll reach that target and we'll all be happy. That's how they think about it.

00:18:18:06 - 00:18:42:14
Sean Lemson
Unfortunately, that's not really how it works, especially when you attach either a negative consequence to not meeting meeting the target, or a positive consequence for meeting the target like a a bonus or a, you know, you get a promotion or there's some positive thing, a raise, anything. so as soon as you attach those either of those things to the target, you have made the target useless.

00:18:42:14 - 00:19:06:16
Sean Lemson
And this is called this is good hard law. When you attach a target to a measurement, it ceases to be a good measurement. and actually for all time, because at your company. Because if people will game the system as soon as they realize most of our metrics can be gamed, most of them, even the agile and scrum ones that I work with, you know, on a regular basis can be gamed easily.

00:19:06:18 - 00:19:23:15
Sean Lemson
so I always tell leaders you want to make these numbers higher. Just tell the team that if they don't get them higher, they're all going to be in trouble, or tell them they're going to be higher and they'll all get a bonus. And I promise you, next week they'll all be higher. They won't really be better. Nothing will be better at the company.

00:19:23:15 - 00:19:24:10
Sean Lemson
But those numbers.

00:19:24:12 - 00:19:26:08
Kevin Eikenberry
Or that will be better. But something, I mean.

00:19:26:08 - 00:19:46:12
Sean Lemson
Yes, I can offer traded. Yes to get that number higher will be higher. And so you know then the natural next question is well what do I do if I can't set a target. Well you set a direction. I'd like this I'd like this I'd like to see this go up. Right. but I don't know you. Each group can come up with a way to set their own target.

00:19:46:12 - 00:19:58:13
Sean Lemson
You can set your own target because you're not going to game it if you're setting the target. Right. But you have a way to play into something larger that the company is trying to accomplish, but you're setting your own target.

00:19:58:15 - 00:20:16:17
Kevin Eikenberry
Yeah, I love that. I mean, think about anything. Think about, cost reduction. I want you to save 10%. Well, people will find the 10%. It may not be on the things you want it to be on. It's one of the reasons. One of the reasons why the number one thing we cut when when we have cost reductions is people and training because they're easy to cut relatively.

00:20:16:17 - 00:20:38:02
Kevin Eikenberry
That's right. Right. But they're not actually the best things. Although there's another conversation that maybe we'll have time for about cutting people. But, but I really I want to move back to something that we talked about briefly earlier. And it's one of the things as I was reading and we are talking, if you just came in late with Sean Lampson, the author of One Drop of Poison, and here it is.

00:20:38:02 - 00:20:58:04
Kevin Eikenberry
Subtitle How one Bad Leader can Slowly Kill Your Company. One of the things that we're in alignment on, Sean, and there's a lot but one of things that we're alignment in alignment on is the importance of mindset. and, and I really want to talk about this idea of how do we mind, how do we use mindset or the role of mindset in what I'm going to call detoxification?

00:20:58:09 - 00:21:09:06
Kevin Eikenberry
Like, how do we start? What can we do, with our mindset to start to shift some of the toxic behaviors and help us be more effective?

00:21:09:08 - 00:21:28:03
Sean Lemson
So I think this is the point where the conversation can turn kind of optimistic, because I use mindset in that way. mindset is not I know I think the word is a little overused, actually. You know, we have growth mindset and fixed mindset in the agile mindset. And I can go on and on. But I want to define what a mindset is.

00:21:28:05 - 00:21:52:15
Sean Lemson
And then I want to tell everybody how you can use it to, change your behavior. Your mindset is made up of three components things you believe, things you value, and principles that you have created that sort of encapsulate or honor those beliefs and values. Right. So for example, for leaders, I hear beliefs like, you know, people work better under a deadline.

00:21:52:17 - 00:22:10:19
Sean Lemson
That's true for some. But it's not a universal truth, right? It's not a universal truth that all people work better under a deadline. and if a leader has that belief, they will act in a way that would they would act differently if they had a different belief. Right. So beliefs play a big role in what makes sense to us.

00:22:10:21 - 00:22:20:00
Sean Lemson
RB just to put this really bluntly, the a serial killer is doing what makes sense to him, right?

00:22:20:02 - 00:22:26:04
Kevin Eikenberry
I'm not saying we're all we're all operating in a way that makes sense based on how we see the world, which is what.

00:22:26:06 - 00:22:27:00
Sean Lemson
Yes, how we.

00:22:27:00 - 00:22:27:18
Kevin Eikenberry
See the world, right?

00:22:27:23 - 00:22:47:07
Sean Lemson
Right. And how we see the world is based on values, principles and beliefs. Right. So the that collection. But the key part here is to realize that when you're behaving, it will feel right to you. Because for you, you'll be honoring a value. You'll be honoring a belief. You might even be honoring a principle if it's a big enough thing.

00:22:47:13 - 00:23:09:07
Sean Lemson
Right? And a principle would be something like, you know, I always tell the truth. Usually principles have an always or a never component to them. and then values are things that you value over something else. Like I value peace and quiet. It's like I value peace and quiet over a noisy environment or so. A value is usually comparative in nature, things that we value.

00:23:09:07 - 00:23:34:17
Sean Lemson
Right. dangerous. One I see leaders adopt is valuing loyalty. Now, there's nothing wrong with valuing loyalty. As long as your understanding of loyalty is that it bounces back at you when you send it down. Right? But too many leaders who value loyalty, command it, or try to demand loyalty and punish others. So this is an example of a value that can actually really take you sideways as a leader.

00:23:34:19 - 00:23:54:05
Sean Lemson
It's not that it's bad to have a value of of loyalty, but you really do need to dig in sometimes, even with a therapist, to figure out where that value is coming from. Was it a trust, you know, problem from your childhood, where now suddenly you're like, I don't trust anybody unless they're loyal to me, right? There could be some deep rooted things that caused this.

00:23:54:05 - 00:24:23:09
Sean Lemson
But once once you understand that your mindset doesn't make you right, it just makes you feel right. That opens up an opportunity to go. So are my behaviors actually getting me followers in the case of being a leader, right? If they are, then great. My mindset is probably okay if they're not, and I still feel right is a very strong possibility that I need to go challenge some of the beliefs that I have, or take a look at the values I have.

00:24:23:14 - 00:24:47:00
Sean Lemson
And here's the cool part. If you do that, if you really do the work, you'll find that your behaviors just change automatically because you're kind of we want we don't like the cognitive dissonance of behaving in a way that is different from our beliefs and values. And if you suddenly change my belief about something, my behavior is going to change in a minute and we'll probably never go back.

00:24:47:02 - 00:25:05:10
Kevin Eikenberry
I was thinking about something my dad used to say to me. He said, Kevin, every time you point your finger at someone else, there are three fingers pointing back at you. And that's basically what you're saying. Like, what happens is, well, I'm doing what feels right, what is right to me, but it's them. It's them. Yes, but if there's enough thems, we got to get out of it.

00:25:05:10 - 00:25:18:15
Kevin Eikenberry
We got to get past denial because the the consistent factor is us. And we've got to take a look back and say, okay, now what is it here? I'm not getting the results. I'm not getting the outcomes that I want. And that's.

00:25:18:19 - 00:25:43:13
Sean Lemson
Yeah. And Kevin, there's one really important part of this, and I think this is the place where companies screw this up, because it's very easy for us to do what you just said, to say it's you, not me, because I got the outcomes I wanted. But but they're being judged by the outcomes they're being asked for. And so that's why I make this statement that sometimes your worst leaders do not look like your worst leaders.

00:25:43:13 - 00:26:06:17
Sean Lemson
If you're the CEO of the company, your worst leaders don't look like your worst leaders. Sometimes they look from your perspective, like your best leaders. You say, I have all these people below me, and every time I give them a project, it gets done, I get results. These people are amazing, right? But what you don't realize is the people below them all want to quit and so unless the CEO also puts into the equation.

00:26:06:19 - 00:26:19:21
Sean Lemson
Oh yeah. And also, can you get this work done and not make everybody want to quit, then likely it's possible that all the way up the chain, leaders can just pat themselves on the back, that they're doing the right thing, even if people are mad about it.

00:26:19:23 - 00:26:35:13
Kevin Eikenberry
And it takes us back to, humans leaders hiring people who have a mindset that matches theirs. Right? Because, and so if I see that connection and I see those results, then life is good, right?

00:26:35:15 - 00:26:52:10
Sean Lemson
Yeah. And so I'm going to bring in people who are just like that or promote people who are just like that. And then meanwhile, we might be getting someone who can get us those results. But if we don't include in those results the engagement of the employees, then we've blown it. In my opinion, I think we're we're trading some like you cannot get around it.

00:26:52:10 - 00:27:12:02
Sean Lemson
You you can it's and this is the part that's important for people to get. It's not a zero sum game. I'm not asking leaders to trade off on being able to get high performance from their teams. I'm actually saying if you take care of their morale and their engagement, the high performance part you just get for free, you don't even need to work at it.

00:27:12:02 - 00:27:25:05
Sean Lemson
Or you could just command the high performance and everybody wants to quit and you have to go and replace everybody. That doesn't make any sense, right? Why don't we just go right to the place where people want to be here and do their best, and I'll get their best?

00:27:25:07 - 00:27:58:02
Kevin Eikenberry
Exactly. I sometimes ask a question about this with a guest because, you know, the world of work is in many ways different than it was four years ago, with more people working at some distance. Right? Less proximity, whether you want to call it remote, virtual hybrid, whatever you want to call it. what are you seeing or what comments would you make about, the levels of toxicity or how fast it spreads or anything about this, these ideas of toxic leadership and doing it at distance.

00:27:58:04 - 00:28:19:16
Sean Lemson
Oh, so remote working. Yeah, yeah. so first of all, I think we're screwing up remote working. we're we're we're not screwing up the remote working leaders are screwing up, what they're doing right now, trying to get everybody back in the office full time. there's a lot of human psychology about this, and I couldn't possibly give you an answer here.

00:28:19:18 - 00:28:38:03
Sean Lemson
that would do it justice. But if any of your viewers are interested, the. You're welcome to go to my YouTube channel, which I'll give you that link. and I have a three part series on remote work up there, but, the short of it is companies need. I get why companies want to have people back in the office.

00:28:38:03 - 00:29:03:16
Sean Lemson
What they're claiming is, and I'm going to say it that way, and you'll see why in a minute. What they're claiming is that their team collaboration is lower with everybody working remotely. Individual productivity is higher when everybody's working remotely. But team connection collaboration is lower. Now that is true. Both of those are true. There's actual data to back up both of those assertions.

00:29:03:18 - 00:29:31:11
Sean Lemson
However, the same leaders that are using the teams just aren't collaborating. Excuse to get everybody back in the office are the same leaders who outsourced half the teams to India, China, Poland, you name it. State data centers all around the world splitting teams across nine time zones. You know, whatever, that that is causing the exact same team collaboration problem.

00:29:31:11 - 00:30:09:11
Sean Lemson
And we've been dealing with that for decade now. And those leaders didn't seem to care. But suddenly now they care about the team collaboration, because those that are housed in, say, the United States are working, remotely. That doesn't make any sense to me at all. The hypocrisy of it is a little bit glaring. But that aside, you can overcome this by just doing what I call the 92% rule, which is you work from home or wherever you want 92% of the time, and then one week, a quarter, everybody on your team gets together in person for one week, and then for the rest of the quarter, you're back working where you want.

00:30:09:14 - 00:30:31:07
Sean Lemson
Most people who work remotely would be happy to come into the office once one week, a quarter, to do some work with their team in person, and that would accomplish the human psychology side of it. I know you're asking me more around like managers. so leading this way is really about setting objectives and making sure that you trust your teams to do work.

00:30:31:07 - 00:30:42:21
Sean Lemson
You've you have a belief in your mindset. That is people who work remotely are goofing off instead of being working. Then you're going to be driving all the wrong behaviors as a leader.

00:30:42:23 - 00:31:02:11
Kevin Eikenberry
we couldn't agree more on that last point. So, I want to shift gears and sort of take us into the final around the final turn. If you will, of our conversation. And, and, I want to ask a couple more things about you personally. What do you, Shawn, do for fun?

00:31:02:13 - 00:31:15:16
Sean Lemson
I have a lot of hobbies. Actually. I have a fifth wheel, and I work from it. when the weather's nice here, I work from it. a couple weeks a month. I take it someplace nice in the middle of a forest. And where I have connectivity, and I work from there. Speaking of remote.

00:31:15:16 - 00:31:17:01
Kevin Eikenberry
That being important, the kind of.

00:31:17:03 - 00:31:33:17
Sean Lemson
Yes, I get. Yeah, I get I've really I have all the campgrounds in the area scoped out and know their, their signal. So I know where I can go. that's one I do. 3D printing is another hobby of mine. And you know, I oh, there's so many. I'm into the listing.

00:31:33:18 - 00:31:36:02
Kevin Eikenberry
Coolest thing you have 3D printed?

00:31:36:04 - 00:31:53:08
Sean Lemson
I am literally right now as we speak in the next room. It is printing a can, a canned good rotation thing for my pantry where I can throw the the new cans in the top and they roll around and come out the bottom, and I can just keep grabbing from the bottom so I can keep rotating canned goods in my pantry.

00:31:53:08 - 00:31:56:17
Sean Lemson
That's I'm building one of those. I think that's a cool thing.

00:31:56:19 - 00:32:17:13
Kevin Eikenberry
There you go. my son also does 3D printing, so I was curious. Every year for Christmas, I get something. I have not gotten that. And we have to have him watch this. Shawn. so. Because trust me, he doesn't necessarily watch that. My my podcast. You just say it. so, and the only thing you knew I would ask you is this.

00:32:17:19 - 00:32:21:10
Kevin Eikenberry
And that is, What, what are you reading, Shawn?

00:32:21:12 - 00:32:42:17
Sean Lemson
Well, at the moment, I'm not reading anything leadership related, because I swim in that a lot. I'm actually reading something kind of connected to what we just talked about with 3D printing. I'm reading three books on preparing for a disaster. and they're all by the same author. I think his last name is Riley. but they're pretty much the the the books.

00:32:42:17 - 00:33:02:22
Sean Lemson
You know, there's three of them preparing your pantry, preparing your for a power out situation. And then, you know, when, when the lights go out in suburbia. I can't remember one of his books, but these are all great books on preparing for a disaster. and one of the things I need to be better at doing is rotating food, from old to new.

00:33:02:22 - 00:33:14:03
Sean Lemson
So this is why I decided to print this for the pantry so I could buy big boxes of canned goods and then rotate them into my use. so, yeah, that's what I'm reading these days. Three books on that.

00:33:14:04 - 00:33:26:21
Kevin Eikenberry
It's all connected, everybody. so, Shawn, now, the question you've most wanted me to ask from the very beginning, where can people learn more about you? Where do you want to point people? You mentioned a YouTube channel. what do you want to point people working to get the book.

00:33:26:23 - 00:33:43:03
Sean Lemson
So, they can get the book from anywhere. You can buy a book. I believe Amazon, Apple has the e-book. and you can buy it. You can order it from a bookstore, if you if you prefer to do that, it is available in their system. you can, you can reach out to me on LinkedIn.

00:33:43:03 - 00:34:02:06
Sean Lemson
You're welcome to, to connect up with me on LinkedIn. I'd love to hear from you there. And, just under my name, Shawn Lampson. And then, my company's Motivated outcomes.com, which is on the screen right there. And that's the place you want to search on YouTube to find my channel. it's, there's some pretty good content up there.

00:34:02:06 - 00:34:12:20
Sean Lemson
And one of the things I'm making in the process right now is I'm making a video for every one of those ten archetypes. So, I think I have like three of them up there now or four, but I'm still working through them.

00:34:12:22 - 00:34:35:21
Kevin Eikenberry
So some of you are listening to this later. By the time you hear this, there'll be more of those archetypes. Not not that I'm putting any pressure on Shawn or anything. but there will be more of those, and, and you may want to go back. So, so before we go, I'm finished answering, asking questions of Shawn, but I have a question of you.

00:34:35:23 - 00:34:56:15
Kevin Eikenberry
if you've been here before, you know what I'm going to ask you? It is now. What? What are you going to do as a result of our conversation? What action are you going to take? Maybe you're going to decide you want do 3D printing, but more likely you're going to spend some time thinking about, thinking more about what engagement looks like, measuring, engagement of your team.

00:34:56:17 - 00:35:18:10
Kevin Eikenberry
it might be thinking more about your mindset and how it's in, how it might be an indicator, for the results that you're getting. Any of those things. And lots more. Those just happened to be a few of the things that I wrote down. And so the most important thing for you to do from this as a listener or viewer is to take action as a result, Shawn and I would both say the same thing about our books.

00:35:18:10 - 00:35:35:06
Kevin Eikenberry
That one that we don't want you to just read and consume, but rather take action. And I'm just encouraging you to do that same thing here, from the time that we've just spent together. So. So, Shawn, thanks again for being here. It's a pleasure to have you. no poison at all here in this conversation. Just really good stuff.

00:35:35:06 - 00:35:36:18
Kevin Eikenberry
And I appreciate your time.

00:35:36:19 - 00:35:38:21
Sean Lemson
Thanks for having me. I appreciate it.

00:35:38:23 - 00:36:00:20
Kevin Eikenberry
And so, everybody, if you enjoyed this, make sure you're subscribed wherever it is that you're watching or listening from so you don't miss any future episodes and let somebody else know if you found this valuable. Maybe you want to share this conversation with Shawn, or maybe you just want to have other people join you for the future. And if you've just found us, trust me, there's plenty in the archive to go back through.

00:36:00:20 - 00:36:09:22
Kevin Eikenberry
Search through, find what you might want. But most of all, I hope you'll come back next week for another episode of the Remarkable Leadership Podcast. Thanks, everybody.