How Putting Workers First Helps Businesses Thrive with Stephan Meier

00:00:08:12 - 00:00:31:02
Kevin Eikenberry
Question for you. Which comes first? The chicken or the egg? Now, this riddle feels like a bit of a conundrum, and it isn't something we need to talk about here. But there's a similar tension that we could frame as a conundrum in business, and that is customer first or employer employee first. That is the question we will wrestle with today.

00:00:31:02 - 00:00:52:04
Kevin Eikenberry
And our guest has an answer. Welcome to another episode of the Remarkable Leadership Podcast, where we are helping leaders grow personally and professionally to lead more effectively and make a bigger, positive difference for their teams, organizations and the world. If you are listening to this podcast, you could be with us in the future. Live on your favorite social media channel.

00:00:52:07 - 00:01:10:14
Kevin Eikenberry
Well, unless I suppose that channel is discord or TikTok because we're not there. But listen, you can join us in the future and get this information sooner and have more interaction with my guest. And you can do all that by finding out when they're happening. And the way to do that is to join our Facebook or LinkedIn groups.

00:01:10:16 - 00:01:36:18
Kevin Eikenberry
You can just go to remarkable podcast.com/facebook or a remarkable podcast.com/linkedin to get connected there. And you'll know when these are going to happen. And then you can join us live. Hope you'll do that. Today's episode is brought to you by my latest book, Flexible Leadership. Navigate uncertainty and lead with confidence. It's time to realize that styles can get in our way, and that following our strengths might not always be the best approach.

00:01:36:19 - 00:01:56:23
Kevin Eikenberry
In a world that is more complex and uncertain than ever. Leaders need a new perspective and a set of tools to create great results for their organizations and team members. That's why that's what flexible leadership provides you and why I wrote it. You can learn more and order your copy now at remarkable podcast.com/flexible seems like a logical link.

00:01:57:02 - 00:02:15:03
Kevin Eikenberry
And with that, let me bring in my guest. There he is. We had the chance to chat for a few minutes before we went live. And you're going to love this conversation. His name is Stefan Meyer. He is the James P Gorman Gorman Professor of Business Strategy at Columbia Business School and the chair of the management division.

00:02:15:03 - 00:02:36:08
Kevin Eikenberry
He's the author of a new book, his first, The Employee Advantage How Putting Workers First Makes, Excuse me, helps Business thrive. He is an award winning teacher of classes in the MBA and MBA program, executive Education on strategy, the future of work, and behavioral economics. I'm going to come back to that behavioral economics part in a second.

00:02:36:09 - 00:02:56:09
Kevin Eikenberry
He previously was a senior economist at the Federal Reserve Bank in Boston. His work has been published in leading academic journals, including the American Economic Review, Management Science, Psychological Science, Science Magazine, and has been profiled by the press in places like The Economist, The Wall Street Journal, the Financial Times, A New York Times, all sorts of other places.

00:02:56:11 - 00:03:03:22
Kevin Eikenberry
He has a PhD in economics from the University of Zurich, and he is my guest. And I'm glad to have you, Stefan. Thanks for being here.

00:03:04:00 - 00:03:09:03
Stephan Meier
Thank you so much for having me, Kevin. That was a way to a nice introduction, I think.

00:03:09:05 - 00:03:31:11
Kevin Eikenberry
Well, your mother wrote it, so here we go. It's, I always feel like when someone introduces a game like that sounded. How? I don't know. But then I realized that we probably sent it to him. So, I'm so glad that you're here. I'm looking forward to this conversation, but I'd really like to start here.

00:03:31:13 - 00:03:45:01
Kevin Eikenberry
When you were a kid, you didn't probably think you would be a behavioral economics economist. Like, just a little bit about the journey that leads you to this kind of work and then sort of what leads to the book.

00:03:45:03 - 00:04:02:05
Stephan Meier
Thank you so much Kevin. No I did not want it to be a behavioral economist. When I was a kid. I actually wanted to be first. I wanted to be a bus driver because I thought that the chair is really cool. It's really bouncy. I really enjoyed that. And then I wanted to be an astronaut.

00:04:02:07 - 00:04:07:04
Kevin Eikenberry
See, that's why I put people that's of roughly our age. They want to be an astronaut.

00:04:07:04 - 00:04:25:02
Stephan Meier
I've never that I really. I was obsessed with the space shuttle program, and, Yeah, I was I saw the first launch of the space shuttle. So that kind of you can you can maybe backward engineer. How how young. I cannot be, well, I'll tell.

00:04:25:02 - 00:04:33:17
Kevin Eikenberry
You what the, the only thing I'm going to say about that is that means I'm older because I, you know, I have a I have an earlier memory of the space program. We'll just let that go.

00:04:33:19 - 00:04:57:00
Stephan Meier
I, I okay, so so then I, I actually started to study, history. Interesting. So I have a master's in history. I so I grew up in Switzerland, I studied in Switzerland, and I did, I studied history, in fact, I studied a lot of U.S. diplomatic history, back in when I studied at the Eisenhower era.

00:04:57:02 - 00:05:16:20
Stephan Meier
Some of the documents were declassified. So it was interesting to look at them. So I studied a lot about Ike. And then while I was studying, I figure out, like, actually, I want to have a little bit more frameworks, guidance in how people behave. History or at least how it was taught in, in, in Zurich and gave me that.

00:05:16:20 - 00:05:41:10
Stephan Meier
So I switched to economics, which has a really, really strong view of how people behave. You know, they are perfectly rational, they calculate optimally and they optimize their self-interest. And I was interested. But then I figured out, pretty soon that that definitely doesn't reflect how I behave. Because I'm definitely not rational. A lot of the time it's.

00:05:41:10 - 00:05:45:02
Kevin Eikenberry
A yes and. Right. That's true. Yeah. But it's. Yes.

00:05:45:04 - 00:06:13:05
Stephan Meier
Exactly. I mean, it's probably better to assume that people are just randomizing you know, assuming that they kind of think, yeah, what are the costs and benefit? And it's probably better to assume that not everybody is Mother Theresa, and is completely selfless. But but it's definitely not, as you said, you know, exactly exactly true. And so then I studied more and more about, like, how people actually behave, how they help each other.

00:06:13:06 - 00:06:39:06
Stephan Meier
My my PhD was about non self non selfish behavior. The economics of non selfless behavior. And then I came to the US for for nine months. That was the plan. I was at the Kennedy School and Harvard with with a scholarship from Switzerland and then wanted to go back after nine months. And, and I was in 2005, I'm still here.

00:06:39:06 - 00:07:01:16
Stephan Meier
I then joined the, the fed, Federal Reserve Bank in Boston. They just started a center on behavioral economics and decision making. That was kind of when behavioral economics really took off. So the Federal Reserve Bank thought like, well, we need to know a little more about like how people actually maybe we were can we can we make our models better and so forth.

00:07:01:17 - 00:07:19:22
Stephan Meier
And so I worked there for a couple of years, and then I joined Columbia. The business school in 2008 as an assistant professor. And I'll work my way through here now, the book, how it came to my book.

00:07:20:00 - 00:07:39:22
Kevin Eikenberry
Yeah. And the reason that I, I kind of wanted you to say more. I mean, I often ask that question, and but but I'm, I think the behavioral economics piece of this is useful because this is a book about, you know, putting employees first. Right? The subtitle, the title of the podcast, How Putting People First Helps Business Thrive.

00:07:39:22 - 00:08:05:02
Kevin Eikenberry
Okay, cool. Most people would probably assume that the author is like a psychologist. I was at Penn and Positive psychology. And maybe there's like some employee engagement stuff in here, and which there is. But my point is, the perspective that you come at this from is probably not what people were expecting or might expect, even when they pick up the book or are listening to us.

00:08:05:02 - 00:08:11:15
Kevin Eikenberry
And so, so now with me giving that preamble to tell us a little bit more about the book, and then we're going to dive. We're going to really read a.

00:08:11:15 - 00:08:37:08
Stephan Meier
Perfect I mean, I, I yes, thanks. So I, I tried to describe it and I was like, it's in the intersection of business strata, behavioral economics and the future of work. So I, I come through it from I teach at Columbia, our students for years, thousands of students about like business strategy. You know, how Walmart can do better.

00:08:37:10 - 00:08:59:06
Stephan Meier
What's the problem with Disney? Whether PepsiCo should get rid of their snacks division and and so on and so forth. And and for the longest time, I started by, like, just thinking about customers, you know, we would start like, in the intro lecture, I would say, well, there was like, you know, the success of a business depends on the customers and the competitors and the employees.

00:08:59:06 - 00:09:33:01
Stephan Meier
And, let's not think about the customers. And then the whole class was about the customers. And then my research I would do understand, like, how do people work? Why do they motivate it? And I did not combine it for the longest time. I kept it very separate actually. And and only the, after the pandemic, I realized, you know, something is really broken and how we engage with our workforce and I'm at fault.

00:09:33:03 - 00:09:57:05
Stephan Meier
I'm teaching all those future leaders about business. And and as all of our customers, while I know a lot actually about how humans behave, and that's the behavioral aspect to it, how humans actually make decisions, why they work, why they get up in the morning, and how that can actually help businesses to be successful. And so that's when I started to combining it.

00:09:57:05 - 00:10:19:17
Stephan Meier
Now, you know, technology obviously plays a role. I then started to teach about the future of work. And through throughout the book, I also want to say I think enough of like, you know, how technology can help. So that's kind of the third part. So there is business strategy, which is pretty much economic, you know, like how in competition can we beat the others and whatever.

00:10:19:19 - 00:10:43:21
Stephan Meier
And then there is a part about behavioral economics, which is like, you know, how do people actually make how do they actually work? What motivates them? And, you know, at the behavioral part is but it's not just money. It's much more than just like the paycheck. And then there is kind of the future of work aspects of what can we now do with technology in order to make that better?

00:10:43:23 - 00:10:45:08
Stephan Meier


00:10:45:10 - 00:11:07:22
Kevin Eikenberry
You, you, you you wrote something early in the book, and I don't remember the, the ratio. I'm going to say a number and it'll be wrong, but you said that something like 70% of the writing and 70% of the teaching about business is about like, a 70 or 80% is about the customer versus the employee. And I, I may have the numbers wrong, but I'm right directionally.

00:11:08:00 - 00:11:23:04
Kevin Eikenberry
And so now I want you to give us the business case, why we need to to not only think about the customer and, but we need to think about. Yeah, our teams, our folks, our people.

00:11:23:06 - 00:11:51:01
Stephan Meier
Right? Right. Absolutely. So it's about. Yeah. Your your ballpark, completely right about, the ratio. So I'm actually got a little obsessed for a while, like looking, you know, how people, how often do executives talk about customers and employees? Ten times more on average. How do they talk about customers? Well, the customers are like growth and opportunities, and the employees are like risk and cost.

00:11:51:01 - 00:12:17:08
Stephan Meier
And like all those, like, painful, stuff. And it's it's everywhere. It's like board member background, strategy books, research on strategy and so on and so forth. So, so what's the what's the case for business case for, employees? I think there is one is just like, what, what what engaged employees give us. And then there is the other.

00:12:17:08 - 00:12:47:01
Stephan Meier
Why? I believe it's becoming more important and not less going forward. So the the what the benefit of like having really engaged, motivated, employees is, you know, productivity goes up, people are working harder, and better, doing so they're, they're more innovative. They come up with new ideas, much more than when they are checked out.

00:12:47:01 - 00:12:51:07
Kevin Eikenberry
Or they share them. They might be. Yeah, exactly. They know what's the point, right?

00:12:51:10 - 00:13:14:10
Stephan Meier
Absolutely, Kevin. You know, like they actually share them because they care, about the organization as well. They leave less, you know, quit rates are going down. Turnover is going down. And and if they have connections with customers, you know, there is I don't believe there is any business where like, you can have happy customers without happy employees.

00:13:14:12 - 00:13:24:00
Stephan Meier
So the customer service and whatever directly depends on how engaged and motivated, the, the workforce is.

00:13:24:05 - 00:13:40:19
Kevin Eikenberry
I would even, I would even at the end of the day, people don't buy from companies. They buy from people. So it's not just customer service is also sales, in my opinion. Yeah. Absolutely. We could we could make that. We can make that tie more than just anecdotally. Yeah.

00:13:40:21 - 00:13:59:07
Stephan Meier
No, I could not agree more. You know, and like if companies that some that I talk about like your Costco you know like the people they treat their employees well you know, they give them a clear career path. So people actually come in and know how they can make a career. And as a result, the customer is super happy.

00:13:59:07 - 00:14:17:10
Stephan Meier
Now, what what does it get you with a happy customers? Well, sales per square foot goes up and in Costco there are so loyal, you know, that they pay subscription fees. They're so loyal that they love the private label. You know, they love the Kirkland, which the margins are higher.

00:14:17:14 - 00:14:23:22
Kevin Eikenberry
You're talking my word that I can't go on a date. What do you talking about?

00:14:24:00 - 00:14:57:05
Stephan Meier
And so you kind of see, just with Costco, like, almost all the benefits, that, that, that help businesses. And at the CEO of, of, of Costco just recently before Congress, you know, say that. Well, it's like this is not altruism. This is good business. Because it gives us a competitive advantage. And and it's and I actually think it's more, you know, the experience and the employees have is actually becoming more important and not less, going forward.

00:14:57:07 - 00:14:57:20
Stephan Meier
You know.

00:14:57:22 - 00:15:19:03
Kevin Eikenberry
I want to talk more about that. Okay. I want sure, I want to go on I want to kind of keep on this tension between customer and employee just for a second. And, and I want to go back to, a book that was famous a long time ago, with written, co-written by Tom Peters, who I was thankful to have on the show twice.

00:15:19:05 - 00:15:44:05
Kevin Eikenberry
But he made he and Bob Waterman made Stu Leonard famous for the sign that the customer two rules. The customer is always right. And number two, if you don't think number rules, right, I mean, refer to number one, right? So like, the customer is always right. So are you saying then here if we're going to be like, putting our focus on the employee and the employee experience, are we saying then that employees are always right?

00:15:44:07 - 00:15:46:17
Stephan Meier
No. Well, okay.

00:15:46:22 - 00:15:52:22
Kevin Eikenberry
For the answer because I guess. Look. Yeah, but I wanted us to talk about. So say more. So. So first of all, I.

00:15:52:22 - 00:15:57:22
Stephan Meier
Actually don't think it's even right that the customer is always right. I would agree with.

00:15:57:22 - 00:16:00:12
Kevin Eikenberry
You, but that's the best way to frame the question.

00:16:00:12 - 00:16:37:13
Stephan Meier
Yes. No, absolutely. I mean, and you hear that all the time, you know, the customer and I think the best that the right customers might be always right, but with the employees, there is obviously too much of like, you know, what we what we want to achieve is that's why I, I try to be a little careful with, like, happy employees because when you really when you, when your objective is to make people happy, employees happy, just happy, you know, send them to the beach in Florida, you know, like they should on vacation.

00:16:37:18 - 00:17:10:10
Stephan Meier
Like, but but what you will want is really engaged and motivated, employees. That means we have to make, like, clear choices about that. You know, in the book, I talk about Etsy as an example in that chapter at Etsy was like the most, employee friendly organization, the best food, the amazing cafeteria, you know, pottery classes and yoga classes and reading rooms and like, you name it, it was amazing.

00:17:10:12 - 00:17:44:04
Stephan Meier
The only problem they lost like $30 million a year. And so the new CEO comes in and say, like, look, we can't I mean, we can't continue that. We I want to be employee centric, but this went too far and he had to make quite dramatic cuts at the beginning. And, you know, the some of the, the those lavish programs didn't continue is still a very employee centric organization, but much more aligned with what the strategy actually is in Etsy.

00:17:44:10 - 00:18:15:05
Stephan Meier
A big part of what Etsy does is like helps small, you know, in the autism. Turns out a lot of those artists are female, for example. And they're like the little guy, you know, like or sell whatever their pottery and like fight against, like the Chinese imports and so on and so forth. So, so diversity and kind of helping those small, sometimes not as well organized consumers is, well consumer like the producers is, is very important.

00:18:15:05 - 00:18:44:10
Stephan Meier
So that's a core, a core value that, Etsy still has. They actually have a much higher proportion of female executives than like, a lot of comparable like e-commerce platforms. And so they're really true to their, their they are employee centric. But there is limits. There is just certainly I mean, there is very few people who leave or join a company because they have a breathing room.

00:18:44:12 - 00:18:45:01
Stephan Meier
You know, good.

00:18:45:01 - 00:19:04:18
Kevin Eikenberry
News, everybody. We got a behavioral economics economist here. We are not talking about ping pong tables and breathing room. And I got a question I really want to ask, but I need us to get into some of the, you know, like, I wanted us to make the case. And obviously, I want people to go buy a book because, it will be of great value to you if you do.

00:19:04:20 - 00:19:23:10
Kevin Eikenberry
But we need to talk a little bit about, what is it that creates this engagement? What is it that it really means to put our employees first, the to be employee centric and, sort of four big things that you talk about in a way. Yeah. And I don't know that we'll have time to get to all of them, but we need to go in there.

00:19:23:14 - 00:19:44:13
Kevin Eikenberry
So let's talk. Let's talk about you hinted at it earlier. The people want to come to work for more than a paycheck. I always say if you quit paying them, they will stop coming. But that's not the main thing or not. The only thing. So, like, give us some thoughts about this from an economics hard data kind of perspective.

00:19:44:15 - 00:19:45:01
Stephan Meier
Yeah.

00:19:45:01 - 00:19:47:21
Kevin Eikenberry
About what is it beyond the paycheck?

00:19:47:23 - 00:20:08:06
Stephan Meier
Yes, yes. So yeah, I mean, if just for introspection, very few of us get up in the morning and say, like today, I'm going to increase the return on invested capital for my company by one percentage point. Like.

00:20:08:07 - 00:20:11:02
Kevin Eikenberry
Yes, we're moving the EBITDA line today, baby.

00:20:11:02 - 00:20:37:19
Stephan Meier
Yes, yes. Very, very few people people do that. I mean, they might be some, you know, people are very different, but like the majority doesn't, they get out of bed, and are really, really motivated by different things than just money. Now, don't get me wrong. If you don't make enough money and you kind of have to worry about making ends meet, that's a killer to productivity as well, because you're occupied all the time.

00:20:37:21 - 00:21:01:02
Stephan Meier
So like getting up a certain level beyond a certain threshold and some security is critically important. But once you pass that know, now and we know actually know. And here is now the behavioral science that we actually know a lot about what motivates people or what gets them out of bed. And I talk about four of those motivators.

00:21:01:04 - 00:21:26:09
Stephan Meier
The first one is purpose. You know, how to actually have purpose that is like an impact, a meaning that goes beyond solving a problem. And that could obviously differs from what people, you know, some people get, you know, a children's heart, you know, helping kids or like, helping complicated problems to make the world a better place, so to speak.

00:21:26:11 - 00:21:51:16
Stephan Meier
Is is really important. I mean, I call it shoot for the moon. And maybe in my that I wanted to become an astronaut. Kicks through because, like, you know, the famous example when, like, President Kennedy, said, like the only goal now NASA has is to bring a man to the moon and kind of shifted that mission within seven years, which was a very, very ambitious, goal.

00:21:51:18 - 00:22:14:06
Stephan Meier
But but it actually invigorated, like the whole organization to the janitor who, you know, and this famous quotes as like, you know, I'm not mopping the floor. I'm bringing the man to the moon. That's what got this janitor, I think, out of bed and like, let's do that job. Well, two purposes. One. The second is autonomy or being empowered.

00:22:14:06 - 00:22:38:17
Stephan Meier
I call it a matter of trust, because that's kind of the flip side. People like to have discretion and have flexibility and being and part of it is being trusted. You know, like if I'm working for you and you say, like, Kevin's a Kevin believes in that, I can actually do this. And I can now figure out for myself what I want to do and how I want to solve the problem.

00:22:38:19 - 00:23:06:15
Stephan Meier
I think that's that's really powerful. A lot of people become self-employed just for that, because it's like being your own boss is a good thing. Is very, very powerful. So that's number two. The third is competence. I call it just the right tasks. And, it's about kind of having a task that is that optimally challenges you, you know, it's not boring and it's not.

00:23:06:17 - 00:23:09:20
Stephan Meier
And it's also not, overwhelming.

00:23:09:22 - 00:23:42:00
Kevin Eikenberry
I have to tell you, that is the title of that chapter and the opening story that you tell is, is, is is the best metaphor for this ever? Which is this idea of just it's the just right, the just amount enough but not too much is is really great. So this idea of just enough, just right tasks, a level of we are motivated by having our ability to, to be, to show our competence, to grow our competence and all that.

00:23:42:00 - 00:23:48:12
Kevin Eikenberry
It's just it's excellent. And then number one, so we've got purpose, autonomy, competence and.

00:23:48:14 - 00:24:10:05
Stephan Meier
And and relatedness or I call it working together works that you know having and we can most relate to, you know, if you if you, if you played on a sports team that really worked well, you know, you can achieve a lot. You can you can outperform kind of the individual qualities of the players if you do it right.

00:24:10:05 - 00:24:37:08
Stephan Meier
And that's true for organizations as well. It's very, very motivating to have like the right team and so on and so but but it's also hard. It's a hard part because humans can be really, really nasty, to each other and, you know, can be really toxic. And managing this in the right way and unlocking kind of the power of this working together works is is critical, but but hard as well.

00:24:37:11 - 00:24:54:23
Kevin Eikenberry
100%. So, you said that one of the intersections of this book is the future of work, and you and I didn't talk about this, but I've written three books about that too long distance leader, long distance teammate, long distance team. And there's sort of a lot of connections between what you talk about here and what we talk about.

00:24:55:01 - 00:25:22:03
Kevin Eikenberry
And I think we're very much in alignment in all of that. And I think that that's that's great. I'm curious, from your perspective, you mentioned technology earlier. How does technology and how does remote work, hybrid work, virtual work? Pickett and I know they're they're different, but, how does what's the connection between those four things purpose, autonomy, competence and relatedness?

00:25:22:05 - 00:25:30:03
Kevin Eikenberry
And how do they connect in the, in the, in this new world of work and, and what's the role of technology and all that?

00:25:30:05 - 00:25:56:21
Stephan Meier
Yeah, that's a super interesting question. And I think throughout the book, I want to emphasize and hopefully bring like examples like technology can destroy a lot of those motivators but also enhance them. So let's think about like autonomy. And, you know, remote work is an interesting one because it kind of taps into two motivators in different ways.

00:25:56:23 - 00:26:19:10
Stephan Meier
You know, it's it provides the flexibility and the autonomy. And if you really want to optimize that, you know, you should say, like, you know, fully remote people can come whenever they want or not. But another motivator is working together, works, being together, having those social interactions that are really powerful. And if you want to maximize that, maybe everybody should come to the office all the time.

00:26:19:10 - 00:26:23:06
Stephan Meier
Now, we're obviously not we're not having tension.

00:26:23:06 - 00:26:24:03
Kevin Eikenberry
Between those two, right?

00:26:24:06 - 00:26:47:20
Stephan Meier
Yes. There is this tension. There is. But it's also, you know, people want to talk to executives. You know, they they they complain about a lot of things when it comes to remote. And I'm, I'm a big proponent of hybrid, if done well. But they, for example, say like, well, you know, there's less watercooler moments or maybe nowadays kombucha tap moment or whatever it is.

00:26:47:22 - 00:26:49:06
Stephan Meier
And,

00:26:49:08 - 00:26:54:02
Kevin Eikenberry
The country is water cooler. Let me be clear. Yes, maybe not at Columbia, but in most of the world, it's still the.

00:26:54:02 - 00:27:25:18
Stephan Meier
Way the we don't have a computer that but we have a very, very good coffee machine. I have to say, it's the Nespresso machine. Moments now, I'm not having 40 hours a week Nespresso machine moments. And, and I, I'm also being very creative. If I have two days a week, no interaction. In fact, I have two days a week where I don't talk to any of my colleagues and we call it weekend and the world is not falling apart.

00:27:25:20 - 00:27:46:11
Stephan Meier
When we do that now, I have trouble sometimes keeping the weekend, you know, because I work a lot. But the idea is we coordinate on two days to do nothing. Couldn't we coordinate? Unlike some days we work at home, and then when we actually come in, we might have more coffee moments or, like, moments that we work together.

00:27:46:13 - 00:28:21:14
Stephan Meier
But you're absolutely right. Having that, there is this tension between, you know, flexibility and and working together works. Now when, you know, technology can help in other aspects. So when we just right tasks, for example, you know, when I sometimes tell my leaders, it's like because it just right past or some move, you know, they once you mastered something then becomes boring, then you have to and so I tell leaders, okay, so this is now it's easy, you know, now, you know, now it's just for all your team members.

00:28:21:16 - 00:28:40:00
Stephan Meier
You have to figure out what they're just right task is match it to the just right task and constantly update. That's all you have to do. And they look at me as like, dude, you know, it's like the world I have. Yeah, I have like, you know, even if you only have like five members of the team, that's hard.

00:28:40:04 - 00:29:08:16
Stephan Meier
You know, not talking about you have like hundred people is on it. And then I say, well, yeah, it's hard, but doesn't that sound a little bit like an AI task where like in if you think Netflix, you know, Netflix does is figures out what does Kevin watch and like oh, he watches like I'm now assuming, he watches like, business documentaries and let's show him more business documentaries.

00:29:08:18 - 00:29:32:01
Stephan Meier
And now Kevin is like after a while and I watch like nature show, so whatever. And but after a while, Kevin gets bored of, like, you know, more and more business documentaries and, and started to watch more dramas and now oh Netflix makes it. Oh Kevin actually he now he now watches dramas. Let's show him now more dramas.

00:29:32:03 - 00:29:57:02
Stephan Meier
And so on and so forth. Now that's the same that like technology can do in organizations and some actually use that. So internal marketplaces that are power tools where people come, you know, to the platform. And so like, I want to learn a new skill, I want to be in another project, then it matches it with project, and it learns over time.

00:29:57:04 - 00:30:18:14
Stephan Meier
Oh, Stephane was now just on a social media platform, social media project in whatever I while I live in the US, one of my in my organization, they want to launch something in Switzerland on social media. Now I know I happen to know something about Switzerland. And so I'm now on that project, the database now updates.

00:30:18:16 - 00:30:36:15
Stephan Meier
Stefan has a new skill. He actually. Now law is something about social media and so the project that he can show me later and so on and so forth, you kind of get the idea. It's like taking the this technology and do exactly what we do with customers, you know, learn how to personalize and so on and so forth.

00:30:36:15 - 00:31:06:06
Stephan Meier
And that enhances the motivation. Surveillance technologies in remote work kills, kills, everything about trust. And it's really hard. I mean, we've all been in relationships where trust was broken. It's very, very hard to regain, once the, the trust relationship is gone, it's really, really difficult to build it up.

00:31:06:08 - 00:31:32:11
Kevin Eikenberry
And I would even argue we can say that about any part of our life. But I would even argue that when. When people feel like they can't aren't being trusted by management, just use that blanket term. It's even harder for that to come back, because societally we already have a starting point, distrust in that group. So like if we've built it and then lost it, we're like, see, this is the way it's always been.

00:31:32:11 - 00:31:52:05
Kevin Eikenberry
That's why we have what we called Horrible Bosses. And everyone went and watched it. Right. Like so I think it's even it's that is completely 100% true. And I think it's perhaps it's the yoke that we bear as leaders, that man when we when we break it in those sorts of ways, it's even harder in many cases to to.

00:31:52:07 - 00:31:52:17
Stephan Meier
Yeah.

00:31:52:20 - 00:32:08:18
Kevin Eikenberry
Back. And maybe we could argue, although we don't have time to go down this path, that it might be even harder to do at a distance, although I think we both believe we can manage it, build it and grow it at a distance. It isn't necessarily obviously easy to do it. To do that.

00:32:08:20 - 00:32:36:06
Stephan Meier
That, I couldn't agree more with, with all you just said. Kevin, I think it's because there is this friction that, you know, because there is this long history of mistrust between management. It just makes it more extreme if it's if it's broken and the distance does make it. I do think harder. You know, I personally do believe strongly that, like, in-person personal interactions are critically important.

00:32:36:08 - 00:32:58:10
Stephan Meier
Whether we need that five days a week. I don't think so. But but but some that there is something that happens in personal interactions that is not so easy to at least with the technology that we have today to replicate in, in a virtual or a remote work environment.

00:32:58:12 - 00:33:18:07
Kevin Eikenberry
There's so many things that I would like to talk to you about that I know that I would like to hope that you would like to talk to me about, but we don't have time to do those things, given sort of the, normal length of this show. But I do have a couple of things I want to ask before we go for, I guess I will ask, is there anything I didn't ask or we didn't talk about that you'd really like to?

00:33:18:08 - 00:33:26:07
Kevin Eikenberry
I mean, is there something that we missed that you or something last did you like to say before we sort of start to close out our conversation?

00:33:26:08 - 00:33:48:04
Stephan Meier
No, I mean, I, I just think and, I think we have Kevin. We're on the same page here, you know, that, like, leaders, you know, we kind of need to change kind of their mindset a little bit, and think about the world differently. And, I mean, you're right about that. And I think we all try to kind of help each other out, you know, it's it's it's hard.

00:33:48:05 - 00:34:13:16
Stephan Meier
You know, it's hard. I don't it's really, really difficult, to motivate, to manage teams. And so the more the more we can help each other. And I think that's part of what I try to do in the book, like hopefully get like a mindset shift. Where do your the CEO of, hundred more 100 plus organization or the or the leader of like two people?

00:34:13:18 - 00:34:20:02
Stephan Meier
We we still have to learn and we constantly have to get better. And I think that's very important.

00:34:20:04 - 00:34:36:12
Kevin Eikenberry
And that's why this show exists. Probably both of those two people you just described that are here, watching or later listening, a couple things before we go. What do you do, Stefan? For fun.

00:34:36:14 - 00:34:37:12
Stephan Meier
So.

00:34:37:13 - 00:34:44:03
Kevin Eikenberry
You just told me you spent half your weekends working, so we got to get out of that for a second. Like, what do you do for fun?

00:34:44:05 - 00:34:59:13
Stephan Meier
So here is something that I, that I now do often is, I make, I make Lego stop motion movies about work. So, so it's.

00:34:59:13 - 00:35:05:15
Kevin Eikenberry
It's there a YouTube. Is there somewhere we can see the like. Oh, yes. I've ever had anyone tell me that ever. Yes.

00:35:05:19 - 00:35:06:07
Stephan Meier
You can have.

00:35:06:12 - 00:35:11:06
Kevin Eikenberry
A question on the show. 470 the support and 70 of time of that question.

00:35:11:08 - 00:35:32:23
Stephan Meier
Yeah. So I, I yeah I have on my webpage I mean there are also on YouTube, but I don't think anybody has subscribed to my channel, which is fine. But on, on my webpage you can, you can look at them. It actually started all with like I was, I was really stressed out, you know, like I wrote the book, the chair of the division I teach, I do scholarly work.

00:35:33:01 - 00:35:52:20
Stephan Meier
I was stressed out, and I found I needed, like, something to ground me. And I found this book in a book in a airport bookstore. How to make a Lego stop motion movie. Now, I have three cats, and I have Lego myself. I have it, I have a lot of Legos. So then I started to do those Lego movies with my phone.

00:35:52:20 - 00:36:13:23
Stephan Meier
I still do it with my my old iPhone and move those little minifigures one after another. Now it all has to do with work. You know, they have like I have a yoga class, or I have a terrible boss, or the is all related kind of to my work on my book. And so that's I spend a lot of time thinking about those Lego.

00:36:14:01 - 00:36:20:13
Stephan Meier
There is a space shuttle. There is a launch of the of the book is with us with the space shuttle.

00:36:20:15 - 00:36:24:10
Kevin Eikenberry
So if we go to Stefan meyer.com we can see these. Is are you saying you.

00:36:24:10 - 00:36:32:00
Stephan Meier
Can go Stephan meyer.com. And then at the bottom it says like brick brick by brick or something videos. And then you can see those.

00:36:32:06 - 00:36:53:11
Kevin Eikenberry
Okay. Now I have to tell you, you and I were talking before we started about marketing books, and, we have this little inside baseball conversation. I will bet that the percentage of people that have listened to this show that click on your website will be the highest. I mean, I have no way to read the highest we've ever had.

00:36:53:13 - 00:37:07:01
Kevin Eikenberry
It's awesome. And I promise that I'm going to go take a look because I haven't done that. So, now I'm curious as well. And this is what you knew I was going to ask you. And that is like, what are you reading? Or what's something that you've read recently that you might share with us? Yeah.

00:37:07:06 - 00:37:09:09
Stephan Meier
So the a book the other.

00:37:09:09 - 00:37:16:23
Kevin Eikenberry
Than how to do Legos, stop action. Like I need to actually that link we will put do you know the name of that. We want that in the show notes.

00:37:16:23 - 00:37:32:18
Stephan Meier
I have I have it as well. Yeah you can go there is actually on the, on my web page there on the Lego brick by Brick. There is a little bit the story behind the Lego movies. And so I tell this story is there's actually a link to the book, that I bought at that time.

00:37:32:19 - 00:37:38:19
Kevin Eikenberry
And we will put that I will do that work for you all, and that will be in the show notes as well. But what else are you reading? Okay.

00:37:38:19 - 00:38:07:21
Stephan Meier
So one book that, that really influenced me, like, just recently is, Power and Progress. It's by, Darren Asimov. He just won the Nobel Prize in economics, two, two weeks ago or so for actually, for something else because he has a book, and work on like, why Nations fail, but he has this new book, on technology, basically, and power and progress.

00:38:07:23 - 00:38:34:15
Stephan Meier
And it's a cautionary tale about technology. You know, just not every technology will lead to shared prosperity. And he goes through a lot of historic examples, you know, starting, I think, with the agrarian revolution and then like the Industrial Revolution and so on and so forth, and, and talks about like what leaders have to do because in the end, it's decisions that we have to make.

00:38:34:15 - 00:38:43:15
Stephan Meier
So that's what I found so powerful. But it's a it's a long book. But, I personally I think it's a worth it's, it's worth reading. It's a, it's a great book.

00:38:43:18 - 00:39:02:00
Kevin Eikenberry
We'll have links to both of those. The Lego book I'm for right now, I've noticed the Lego book an hour in progress will have those will also have a link to your book, the employee advantage. How how putting workers first helps business thrive. We've already shown the website. Where else you want to point people? Anything else you want to say to folks about connecting with you or anything before we wrap up?

00:39:02:00 - 00:39:22:13
Stephan Meier
Yeah, I know, I think that, on LinkedIn or like, I actually have a newsletter where every month I release a new Lego movie. So with the newsletter comes like a new a new Lego movie. They're sure, you know, they're not allowing movies. And so they're like, consumable, but hopefully fun. Funny.

00:39:22:15 - 00:39:36:00
Kevin Eikenberry
Before we go, everybody, before I say goodbye to Stefan, I need to do what I do for you all. Every week. I ask you the same question on every episode. I'm going to ask it again today. And it is now. What? What action will you take? Because you were here like what I did, did you get.

00:39:36:02 - 00:39:54:13
Kevin Eikenberry
I'm not asking you. Like what did you learn? I'm asking what will you do with what you learned. And so, you know, obviously I would like to hope that you go buy a copy of Stefan's book, but that's not really what I'm saying. I'm like, what did you hear here that you could go and want to go apply?

00:39:54:13 - 00:40:16:22
Kevin Eikenberry
I could give you my list. I, you if you're watching. You saw me taking notes. But it's not about my list. It's about your action. And so it's my hope that you will take the time to ask that super powerful, reflective action question. Now what? Because when you do that and take that action, you'll get far more from this time than you would if you don't ask that question.

00:40:16:22 - 00:40:27:08
Kevin Eikenberry
So, Stefan, thank you so much. I told you how long we would go, and I lied because we went longer, which simply means that I enjoyed this great deal. Thanks so much.

00:40:27:08 - 00:40:30:13
Stephan Meier
Yeah, it was fantastic. Thank you so much, Kevin, for having me.

00:40:30:15 - 00:40:47:12
Kevin Eikenberry
It was my pleasure. So, everybody, if you like this, make sure you come back. I mean, if you like this, make sure you invite someone else to come join to watch, watch or listen to this. But also the next one. So and if you just happen to randomly find this, make sure you're subscribed to the Remarkable Leadership Podcast wherever it is that you listen to your podcast.

00:40:47:12 - 00:40:53:14
Kevin Eikenberry
So if you'll do that, I'll be back next week because we'll be back next week with another episode of the Remarkable Leadership Podcast.