The Remarkable Leadership Podcast

00:00:08:12 - 00:00:34:15
Kevin Eikenberry
Newsflash, all humans are not the same. And in the workplace today, we are more different, at least in some ways than we've ever been. And yet we must learn to communicate with each other and work with people who are different than we are. That's the facts of life. And that's the focus of our conversation today, working with and leading people who aren't like us.

00:00:34:16 - 00:00:58:09
Kevin Eikenberry
Welcome to another episode of the Remarkable Leadership Podcast, where we are helping leaders grow personally and professionally to lead more effectively and make a bigger, positive difference for their teams, organizations and the world. If you are listening to us, you could have been well, you could be with us in the future. Live because we do these live. Not just me and my guests live, but with other people live streaming.

00:00:58:11 - 00:01:19:03
Kevin Eikenberry
So in the future, you could join us for a live stream and get this information sooner. Because like the time between when this is being recorded right now and it's going to go out into the world is three months, so you can get like a three month competitive advantage in the future. And the way to find out about how to do that is to join our Facebook or LinkedIn groups.

00:01:19:05 - 00:01:41:13
Kevin Eikenberry
Just go to which is which are just two of the platforms where we happen to do these, remarkable podcast.com/facebook, remarkable podcast.com/linked in to get all that information. And so you can join us, get in front of things and really get the inside scoop of what's going on with the show as well. Today's episode is brought to you by my newest book, Flexible Leadership.

00:01:41:15 - 00:02:02:02
Kevin Eikenberry
Navigate Uncertainty and Lead with Confidence. It's time to realize that styles can get in our way, and that following our strengths alone might not always be the best approach in a world more complex and uncertain than ever. Leaders need a new perspective and a new set of tools to create great results for their organizations and team members. That's what Flexible leadership provides you.

00:02:02:04 - 00:02:34:11
Kevin Eikenberry
Learn more and order your copy at Remarkable Podcast. Dot com slash flexible. That's remarkable podcast.com/flexible. And on that note I'm going to bring in our guest. There she is the lovely and talented Kelly McDonnell is our guest. She is an acclaimed speaker who specializes in consumer trends and changing demographics. She's the president of McDonald marketing and has authored four bestselling books and the Customer Experience, Leadership and Marketing, all of which come from the standpoint of working with people who are, quote, not like you.

00:02:34:13 - 00:02:48:07
Kevin Eikenberry
Her book that we're going to talk about today, how to work with and lead People Not Like You, has been on not one, but two bestseller lists. Kelly, thank you for joining us. It's such a pleasure to have you here. And, are you ready to dive in?

00:02:48:08 - 00:02:50:02
Kelly McDonald
I am, thank you. Kevin.

00:02:50:04 - 00:03:16:09
Kevin Eikenberry
Hey. So let's do that. Okay. We've got some comments here. Let me see. Oh, we got someone. Oh. Hello, Christina. Coming into us from Texas today. That's awesome. I always love it when. Especially when someone that I actually know who they are. That's even cooler. So. So, Kelly, let's start here. For those of you that are only watching this, you don't know that there's a cello over her shoulder there that might come into play at some point, I don't know.

00:03:16:11 - 00:03:24:10
Kevin Eikenberry
I already know that there's at least one way that Kelly and I are not alike. She plays the cello, and I don't, Well, okay.

00:03:24:10 - 00:03:26:08
Kelly McDonald
You're being very generous, Kevin.

00:03:26:10 - 00:03:50:05
Kevin Eikenberry
More than I do. I can guarantee you that. So let's just start here. So when you were seven years old, you. Well, I'm. This is somewhat metaphor, right? When you were seven years old, you did not realize that you would own a marketing company, write books, and do speaking. So, like, how do you kind of get here?

00:03:50:05 - 00:03:55:08
Kevin Eikenberry
Tell us just a little bit about the journey that led you to this work.

00:03:55:10 - 00:04:19:13
Kelly McDonald
Okay. I'll try to do this as quickly as possible. So I am a marketing person by training, you know, studied marketing, in college, got my degree and went to work for large global ad agencies out of school. So, you know, working on clients like Toyota, Nissan, you know, Budweiser, Kimberly-Clark. You get the picture of Nike, you know, big brands.

00:04:19:15 - 00:04:39:06
Kelly McDonald
And, that was excellent training for what I do now, because when you've only got, let's say, a 50 minute meeting, 55 minute meeting with the VP of marketing of one of these large companies, Kevin, you've got to be able to go in there and say, here's your problem. You know, like there's always a marketing problem to solve, right?

00:04:39:06 - 00:04:58:14
Kelly McDonald
Here's your truck problem, Nissan, you know, and here's what your competition is doing. And here's what the consumer wants. And here's the remedy for that. And here's what that looks like in a marketing campaign. All of this condensed into like an hour, you know, maybe an hour and a half. So it's really good training for 25 years of, doing that.

00:04:58:16 - 00:05:21:22
Kelly McDonald
And at the same time, hello from Texas person. I lived in Dallas, Texas during this time, and so I lived in Dallas, Texas for 26 years. And during the same time that all this, you know, that this was happening in my career, I was also seeing the changing demographics around us in Texas. There was a huge growth in the Hispanic population between 1990 and 2000, huge growth.

00:05:21:23 - 00:05:40:19
Kelly McDonald
And I could I could hear it and see it. You know, I could hear more Spanish being spoken with my ears. And I could see more Hispanic people, you know, at target and the grocery store with my eyes. And so I knew that all we needed was the 2000 census to tell us how big what I called the size of the price was.

00:05:40:20 - 00:05:48:09
Kelly McDonald
Right. Like, this is going to be a new market opportunity for a lot of different brands, and all we need are the numbers to be able to actually like evaluate.

00:05:48:09 - 00:05:50:05
Kevin Eikenberry
It provides you.

00:05:50:07 - 00:06:18:07
Kelly McDonald
So the 2000 census comes out and it exploded. I mean, this was literally like news headlines everywhere that the Hispanic population was then 16% of the population. It had grown exponentially. And and certainly in places like Texas, excuse me, in Texas and stuff. So what happened is we started getting calls for the at the ad agency that I was currently working at, which specialized in Hispanic marketing, and I was one of the only non-Hispanics there.

00:06:18:09 - 00:06:40:22
Kelly McDonald
And we started getting calls from brands who literally were calling and saying, you know, General Mills going, do we need to make dulce de leche a Cheerios? Like, what is what is the opportunity here? What are the kind of products and services that we need? You know, Levi Strauss is calling and saying, do men from Mexico prefer wranglers or Levi's and, you know, like what kind of styles and stuff?

00:06:40:22 - 00:07:04:01
Kelly McDonald
So everybody wanted a piece of this big consumer group that just kind of burst onto the scene. And so we started doing that. And then at one point, I ended up leaving that company and starting my own, you know, speaking industry, because what I realized was nobody knew anything about this. And there are lots of conferences where marketing is discussed and people are trying to figure out how to expand their business.

00:07:04:01 - 00:07:28:06
Kelly McDonald
Well, I had the the magic elixir, which is I've got one audience for you that you probably haven't tapped into, and you can and I'll show you how. So that started exploding. Everybody wanted to understand, you know, do we just translate ads into English? No, not really, because then there's no real consumer insight. And, you know, all kinds of, like, nuances that make marketing really effective.

00:07:28:08 - 00:07:49:19
Kelly McDonald
So then that led to several of my clients saying, well, you know, you came and you spoke at our marketing conference about, you know, the Hispanic size of the prize. But what about other market segments like we value all market segments, whether it's Modell's, whether it's blacks, whether it's, women, whether it's you know, you name it, you know, can you do something on that?

00:07:49:19 - 00:07:54:06
Kelly McDonald
And of course, you know, Kevin, when you're self-employed and someone asks you a question, the answer.

00:07:54:06 - 00:07:57:17
Kevin Eikenberry
The answer is yes. Yes, exactly.

00:07:57:19 - 00:08:23:23
Kelly McDonald
Yes, I can do that, especially if I've got six months to figure it out. So I started diving into all different kinds of, you know, segmented market marketing. Segmentation and creating tips and tricks for people on how to work with people not like them. And then ultimately, I got a call from Wiley, the largest publisher of business books in the world, and they had come across a PowerPoint presentation.

00:08:23:23 - 00:08:38:02
Kelly McDonald
I'm not kidding. They had come across a PowerPoint presentation, that I had written called How to Market and Sell to People Not Like You. And they called and they said, tell me about that. So I'm telling them about like, what's in that presentation? And they said, have you ever thought about writing a book? And I was like, no, I don't have time.

00:08:38:02 - 00:09:00:15
Kelly McDonald
I'm working, you know, and, my editor, the greatest guy ever said, I think you have a book here, and we want you to write a book. So I got my first book deal from Wiley. Like, I mean, that's like going to the pinnacle, you know, and it became a bestseller. And when you have a bestseller, then they want another one, you know, Mission Impossible two, braids, Mission Impossible three, etc..

00:09:00:15 - 00:09:20:20
Kevin Eikenberry
You know, there are eight of those. So you got a ways to go. So, so, so so that leads us to this book, How to Work with so that people not like you. And I want to get to the book, but I want to make an observation. So most of so for everyone listening, most everyone who's on the show is pitching to get on the show.

00:09:20:21 - 00:09:43:19
Kevin Eikenberry
We get pitches all the time. We get email pitches, we get letter pitches, we get books unsolicited. I read all sorts of stuff. It happens all the time. And which is fine. I say that that says we're doing something right, that people want to be on the show, but but here's the point. Most of those are books that are most of them haven't come out yet or have just come out.

00:09:43:21 - 00:09:46:12
Kevin Eikenberry
This book came out in 2017.

00:09:46:15 - 00:09:46:23
Kelly McDonald
It was my.

00:09:46:23 - 00:10:07:06
Kevin Eikenberry
Thing. And so I think, what are we talking about? Well, I mean, I know why we're talking about it, right? Because it's still important. I just think there's the point that I want to make here is there's there's some things that in here that I mean, I read something to one of my teammates today from the book, and I said, what do you think that was written?

00:10:07:06 - 00:10:29:01
Kevin Eikenberry
They said, well, like this year, I'm like, no, no, seven years ago. Right. So my point is that for all of you that are going to go that are listening and are going to get a copy of Kelly's book, How to Work With and Lead People Not Like you. It's going to be absolutely as real and relevant as it was then, because the issues haven't changed, maybe even more so, to your point.

00:10:29:03 - 00:10:52:23
Kevin Eikenberry
Yeah. And so I think that's really useful thing. And the thing that I thought was so prescient specifically was you tell a story early in the book about, you were given this talk that had what I'll call the D word in it, diversity. And, and you were getting all sorts of people wanting you to do forming, and then it sort of went like this.

00:10:53:01 - 00:11:03:12
Kevin Eikenberry
And so I really want you to talk about that word and why the, the diversity word,

00:11:03:14 - 00:11:04:04
Kelly McDonald
Is off putting.

00:11:04:04 - 00:11:12:02
Kevin Eikenberry
It is getting in our way. And for many of us, it's getting in the way. So just talk about that.

00:11:12:04 - 00:11:32:15
Kelly McDonald
I love that I'm going to borrow that. Getting in our way. I'm stealing that from you from right now to to forevermore. So what I found was, you know, again, this is this is a while ago, right? So I'm talking about diversity. And nobody was talking about diversity in any way, shape or form. Back then. And so I'm this and this is the I'm doing this.

00:11:32:15 - 00:11:49:06
Kelly McDonald
It's a fresh topic. And people from a business standpoint, you know, you're you're always going to get the customers that you're getting. So how do you get the ones that you're not getting. But you could be. It's about expanding your marketing and expanding your customer experiences, all those kinds of things that make complete sense. And then, of course, you're working with people that like you.

00:11:49:08 - 00:12:13:15
Kelly McDonald
So I did see audiences swarming when I would say diversity. And what I observed is it is it either had one of two things for both, Kevin. One was either people thought about it very, very narrowly, like what I call the big five race, ethnicity, age or generational differences. And this is when everybody was still talking about millennials, you know, and boomers and well, they.

00:12:13:15 - 00:12:14:12
Kevin Eikenberry
Still are by the way.

00:12:14:12 - 00:12:20:03
Kelly McDonald
But yeah. Yeah going to be more males were entering the workforce then. And now they're like you know what are you.

00:12:20:03 - 00:12:21:14
Kevin Eikenberry
30% of the workforce.

00:12:21:16 - 00:12:43:11
Kelly McDonald
Yeah, exactly. So it was either about, you know, race, ethnicity, generational differences, gender or sexual identification. Okay. That was the big five. So that was the only place that people went to in their head when they thought about diversity. It was like one of those. And my definition of diversity was always broader than that. My definition was, what if you're just different from me?

00:12:43:12 - 00:12:59:16
Kelly McDonald
What if I live in the city and you live in the suburbs? You know what? If a woman has kids and I don't, which I don't, you know, that makes us really different. You know, we could have the same color skin and be the same age and live in the same zip code and make the same household income.

00:12:59:16 - 00:13:14:18
Kelly McDonald
But if she's got kids and I don't, we're really going to be different. I mean, the whole way we're wired and how we make decisions and what our priorities are. So I, I found that diversity was either too narrow or frankly, it just made people squirm like, oh my gosh, we're going to talk about, you.

00:13:14:18 - 00:13:17:23
Kevin Eikenberry
Know, well, it's an HR topic. It becomes an HR topic, right, right.

00:13:18:01 - 00:13:39:17
Kelly McDonald
Right. And HR, I got to give props to all the HR professionals out there because the HR professionals actually saw what I call the size of the prize with us, with diversity a decade before anybody else. And they were the ones internally at the organizations that they worked with that were saying, we need to diversify our talent pool.

00:13:39:17 - 00:13:59:21
Kelly McDonald
You know, like we can do better, right? Like it's broad, the talent pool. They saw the wisdom in that. And then what happened was something that I think looking back is kind of unfortunate is then diversity training entered the workforce because all of a sudden people are actually working with all different kinds of people because they've done a good job of diversifying the talent pool.

00:13:59:21 - 00:14:18:06
Kelly McDonald
So that's a good thing. But then people didn't know how to work together. And so they're like walking on eggshells or they're saying the wrong thing or it comes out the wrong way. And so this diversity training comes in, which, again, and this is a long time ago, it came across as, you know, people were talking about unconscious bias.

00:14:18:08 - 00:14:39:17
Kelly McDonald
And it came across to the audiences feeling, I'm not saying it was like this, but feeling like shame and blame, all right? And people then started to resist that. I mean, if you're going to make me feel bad about what I do at work here or make me uncomfortable about, you know, talking to you, then I'm just going to shut down, you know, I'm just going to not say anything.

00:14:39:17 - 00:14:49:18
Kelly McDonald
I'm going to lay low. And people started feeling very resistant toward the D word, so I dropped it. You know, because number one, it was.

00:14:49:18 - 00:14:52:09
Kevin Eikenberry
Usually a new D word you use. Demographics is what you did.

00:14:52:11 - 00:14:54:09
Kelly McDonald
I use demographics, absolutely.

00:14:54:09 - 00:15:24:19
Kevin Eikenberry
So, I want to talk I want I want to dive into that. So, I think there are lots of folks who and some of that was in that training, whether it was meant or not. I think usually it wasn't. But people were feeling like, well, I should be able to do this. I shouldn't have trouble or be uncomfortable with my colleagues and teammates.

00:15:24:21 - 00:15:43:12
Kevin Eikenberry
But, you know, one of the things I love about this book is that you are very practical and tactical about a variety of, of situations that we, of course, won't get to all of them. But what I want to do is have you talk about. And you didn't say it this way in the book. Exactly. But maybe I'll give you your second thing from Kevin.

00:15:43:15 - 00:16:02:23
Kevin Eikenberry
Like, how do how do you help people get past should. Well, I really should be better at this. And working with those who aren't like me. In the book, you give us a number of, like, really good. What's in it for me? Reasons why I ought to do this and, and and so often in that training, it was like you sort of have to because it's our new policy.

00:16:03:02 - 00:16:23:17
Kevin Eikenberry
Right. And like how, like help people because people listening may need this, but I think what you're going to say will not only be helpful for them, it'll be helpful for them as leaders in helping their folks. Like what's really in it for us as individuals to work and lead people that aren't like us, like us, like what's in it for us?

00:16:23:19 - 00:16:43:02
Kelly McDonald
What's in it for us? Okay, well, what's in it for us is greater personal success and better understanding of another person's perspective. Right. So I don't care if you've ever had coffee with a friend and you're talking about something and they have a different perspective, and it's one that you've never considered because it never actually entered your mind.

00:16:43:02 - 00:17:02:17
Kelly McDonald
I mean, we can't think about things that we aren't thinking about, you know? And so, I know for me, I've had situations where people have I've had an opinion about something or I have a thought or, you know, sort of a way of thinking about somebody, and somebody presents me with an alternative perspective. And it's not that they're right and I'm wrong or I'm right in there.

00:17:02:17 - 00:17:24:10
Kelly McDonald
Right. It's just different, you know? It's just different. Have you thought about it this way or let me give you, you know, a story or something and, and give me some context to a different way of thinking about it. And it's eye opening. And in sometimes in some cases, Kevin, it's actually kind of mind blowing, you know, like you might have a, a conversation with somebody, like, I never thought of that.

00:17:24:12 - 00:17:25:17
Kelly McDonald
I never thought about it that.

00:17:25:17 - 00:17:27:22
Kevin Eikenberry
Way, never crossed my mind.

00:17:27:23 - 00:17:50:11
Kelly McDonald
It never crossed my mind. And here's why it never crossed my mind is because we only default to the things that we know, right? The things that we read, the people who are in our our circle, you know, and the conversations that we have and the work that we do, that's what we know. It takes something from the outside to bring a new perspective to the table.

00:17:50:17 - 00:18:12:04
Kelly McDonald
And again, it's not about that perspective being right or wrong or good or bad. It's just different. And I mean, one way I can tell you that everybody can relate to is if you are not a tech person and you know somebody who is, have you ever just sat down and talked to somebody who's in tech? Their analytical mind operates very differently than mine does.

00:18:12:04 - 00:18:33:12
Kelly McDonald
You know, they they start looking for what makes sense, what's feasible, what how do we execute? I mean, they're going down a track that I simply don't have in my brain because I'm more conceptual than that, or I'm more social than that. I mean, I'll think about, you know. Well, I don't know, we might not be able to get approval on this or something.

00:18:33:12 - 00:18:58:21
Kelly McDonald
And they'll be like, it doesn't matter. This is what we have to do, you know? And so it's just, I mean, that's why study after study after study after study, there's never been one, Kevin, that disproves this. Every study that's ever examined the productivity and performance of diverse teams versus non diverse teams, the diverse teams do better on every metric that business success is measured.

00:18:58:23 - 00:19:34:09
Kelly McDonald
Sales, profit, customer retention, customer satisfaction, employee engagement I mean you name any metric that we could go, this is great in business and diverse teams outperform it. And so what's happening now too with companies and brands is everybody has technology. Everybody has roughly very competitive pricing with their competitors. Everybody has good products. So the only thing that really does differentiate a company from their competitors is the people in the culture.

00:19:34:11 - 00:19:53:18
Kelly McDonald
That's the magic elixir. And that's actually one of the best things and easiest things that brands can do. And that's why this is getting so much attention. Now the D-Word has fallen out of favor, as you know. You know, I still don't like to use it because I think people think too narrowly about it. But it also got tagged with woke.

00:19:53:20 - 00:20:13:23
Kelly McDonald
You know, over the last few years, I don't think there's anything woke about it. I mean, again, any any study will show you that diverse teams outperform non diverse teams. And that doesn't have to be race and ethnicity. It can literally be wow. You know we have you know we have a marketing team over here. We have a tech team over here.

00:20:13:23 - 00:20:19:08
Kelly McDonald
We have young people. We have older executives. They but everybody benefits from that.

00:20:19:10 - 00:20:35:01
Kevin Eikenberry
There's a there's a study that you talk about and this is not a book report. So and I know that I have read the book since you have I'm just being honest. Like so but you talk about a study and I don't we don't have to go into the details of it. But it's about, murder mystery solving, murder mystery.

00:20:35:01 - 00:20:52:14
Kevin Eikenberry
Oh, yeah. Sorority or fraternity folks. And, here's the point I want to make. Like, they do that, they do the study. The study is done, and they have people from the same fraternity or the same sorority together, and then they add another person, and in some cases, the person that is also from their fraternity or sorority. And sometimes it's someone who's not.

00:20:52:20 - 00:21:07:22
Kevin Eikenberry
And here's the point that you've already made the first point, which is, yes, those teams did better. But the other interesting point is where I want to go next is but they everyone on this team said they didn't like it as much. They didn't enjoy the experience.

00:21:08:00 - 00:21:12:02
Kelly McDonald
They hated it. Okay, I was being harsh.

00:21:12:04 - 00:21:32:22
Kevin Eikenberry
But they got better results. Not so so so I think that's worth thinking. So here's my next question. We want to I mean, I think 95% of people, 95% of time, want to want to work better with people that they work with, even if they don't understand them and even if they're different and all that stuff, most of us most of the time.

00:21:32:23 - 00:21:37:12
Kevin Eikenberry
And yet, if we're all honest, there's times when we say, but do I have to like them?

00:21:37:14 - 00:21:41:13
Kelly McDonald
Oh no, you don't. You don't know a.

00:21:41:13 - 00:21:42:09
Kevin Eikenberry
Little bit more about that.

00:21:42:12 - 00:22:01:14
Kelly McDonald
Can I go right? Can I go very quickly? Kevin, can I just go back to that study for a second? Because I think that that a key point is, I mean, you you hit the broad ones, which is the teams that have the diverse team with an outsider, meaning somebody from a different fraternity or sorority solve the murder mystery better, faster, and more accurately like a ridiculously signif.

00:22:01:16 - 00:22:03:20
Kevin Eikenberry
Like twice as well or something like that.

00:22:03:22 - 00:22:26:04
Kelly McDonald
More than doubling their chances of getting the right answer. And yet the teams that won reported that they couldn't believe they won because all they did was bicker. It was so stressful. They actually felt like they were doing it wrong. There was, you know, like friction and all this kind of stuff. They were like, oh my gosh, it was so awful.

00:22:26:06 - 00:22:49:06
Kelly McDonald
And my point to your listener and viewers is the takeaway on that is working with people who are not like you feels harder because it is harder, like you're not doing it wrong. It's part of the process. But if every time will lead to a better outcome. And so I think that's really validating for people who have worked with people who are not like them.

00:22:49:06 - 00:22:55:21
Kelly McDonald
And they're like, man, this was brutal. You know, like, why is Kevin so hard to work with? Why is this so hard?

00:22:55:23 - 00:22:58:12
Kevin Eikenberry
We hear that all the time. I hear that a lot.

00:22:58:14 - 00:23:21:16
Kelly McDonald
So that's a natural byproduct of a different perspective, is that sometimes you are just going to have that, like, I don't get this. And yet what you don't realize in those moments is you are actually getting there. So what I tell audiences is don't give up when you're starting to feel that friction or that stress, you know, meeting or process with people, you're actually getting somewhere that's not the time to bail.

00:23:21:16 - 00:23:32:00
Kelly McDonald
That's the time to lean in, you know? And and I just think that's an important takeaway for people because they think they're doing it wrong and you're and they're not. That's the process.

00:23:32:02 - 00:23:58:07
Kevin Eikenberry
Yeah. Like I said, there's lots of things and lots of very sort of tactical, practical ways to help people with a variety of situations. And one of the points that you make that I just like you to just go into a little bit more, this is sort of profoundly true. And you say that one of the things that we can do is to focus on the person and not the difference, because very often as humans, we're notice we we're great at recognizing patterns.

00:23:58:11 - 00:24:10:19
Kevin Eikenberry
We see the thing that's different and that's where our brain goes. And we have a hard time leaving there. And so help us, give us like two specific ways that we can, in fact focus on the person and not the difference.

00:24:10:21 - 00:24:28:08
Kelly McDonald
Right? So we tend to see what I call the envelope. Right? If you're older than me, then I see that if you're younger than me, I see that if I'm white and you're Asian or Hispanic or black, I see that, you know, we see the envelope and we and sometimes that envelope is just an actual barrier right then and there in our brains.

00:24:28:10 - 00:24:47:01
Kelly McDonald
And so if we can just sort of set that aside and I'm working with you and I say, Kevin, you're sharing something with me and I here's a way, tell me more about that. Tell me more about that is going to get the other person to start sharing more about how they know this, what their experience was. How did they come up with that idea?

00:24:47:01 - 00:25:08:18
Kelly McDonald
How did they formulate the opinions that they have? And it's not confrontational in any way. I mean, it's it's actually a very respectful saying, tell me more about that. Especially actually, if I don't share your view or I don't understand your view. Tell me more about that. Instead of shutting it down and saying, well, I don't see it that way, Kevin, tell me more about that.

00:25:08:18 - 00:25:29:11
Kevin Eikenberry
And if we go, we go back to where we started in this whole conversation. Is that one of the values or maybe, maybe the single greatest value that having diversity brings us is different perspectives or ways to see the world. The the tell me more about it question is inviting that different perspective. And, and I think that's a really powerful way.

00:25:29:11 - 00:25:43:06
Kevin Eikenberry
Another thing that you say in the book, it's a powerful forward phrase. And I thought about just saying, tell us the forward phrase, but I think that was fair. So the thing that you say is, use this question and I'm going to sneeze. Everybody, I need your help.

00:25:43:08 - 00:25:43:22
Kelly McDonald
Oh, yes.

00:25:43:22 - 00:25:46:09
Kevin Eikenberry
Why is this such a powerful thing?

00:25:46:11 - 00:26:00:23
Kelly McDonald
It's a very powerful phrase, because it's not that yes or no question of can you help me? So can you help me as a yes or no question? And I can ask you, Kevin, can you help me? And you might say, well, I'd love to, Kelly, but, you know, I got to get these numbers to Joanne by 3:00.

00:26:00:23 - 00:26:15:20
Kelly McDonald
And, you know, if she doesn't get the numbers on time, like, you know, it's a yes or no, and you can really get a no, a legit no. Also, when you ask a question like, can you help me? People are a little reluctant to commit because they don't even know what is going to be asked of them. Right?

00:26:15:22 - 00:26:28:13
Kelly McDonald
So it's kind of like the person who calls you up back when you were in college or something and said, hey, what are you doing on Saturday, Kevin? And you were like, nothing, no plans. What do you have in mind? And I'm like, want to help me move? Trapped, right.

00:26:28:15 - 00:26:47:07
Kevin Eikenberry
But so here's one of the things I thought of when I, when I was reading that section about how I need your help, like, that's a, that's a, that's a valuable phrase in every such situation. But let's think about it as a leader. If I ask you and you work for me, I say I need your help is very that's that's a very different statement.

00:26:47:07 - 00:27:09:23
Kevin Eikenberry
Then can you help me? Because first of all, now can you help me? You're going to say yes even if you don't want to. Now you feel potentially put upon you feel micromanaged, you feel all sorts of stuff. And and I could think I'm asking the same question and at some high level I am. And yet it's a totally.

00:27:10:00 - 00:27:31:04
Kelly McDonald
Different I need your help actually honors the person that you're talking to. Right. So if I say to you or if I say you know to somebody else, I need your help, what I'm conveying to you is you have something I lack. Okay? You either have experience, you have knowledge, you have, you have contacts, you have information, you know, whatever it is.

00:27:31:06 - 00:27:51:23
Kelly McDonald
And so when I say I need your help, I'm honoring that person. And then what happens is it's not a yes or a no question. So if I say I need your help, you're going to say something like, what do you need? How can I help? Or even something broader like what's going on? Kelly? You know, and that's those are legitimate things because people want to know, okay, what are you asking me?

00:27:51:23 - 00:28:08:00
Kelly McDonald
And then if I say, well, I'm on this, you know, Johnson project and I'm kind of stuck on this because I don't think I have the right data. And someone said that you could help me with this, and and even if that person is not the one who can help at that point, they're an investor, right? So they'll be like, you know what?

00:28:08:05 - 00:28:29:03
Kelly McDonald
I don't have that information anymore. But Shelly does let me actually just get her on the phone. And, you know, people like to be asked to help and here's the other thing, too. Your audience needs to know that as homo sapiens, we are wired to help our fellow mankind. We are. That's how we've survived all these years, is the cynics.

00:28:29:03 - 00:28:31:05
Kevin Eikenberry
Beware this is actually true.

00:28:31:09 - 00:28:52:17
Kelly McDonald
It's actually true. Primitive people live together in safe communities because they had complementary skills. Right? So somebody built the cave or, you know, made the cave livable or something, and somebody else went and hunted and somebody else, you know, whatever changed babies, you know, or whatever. But the point is, we're wired to help and we like to help.

00:28:52:17 - 00:29:11:21
Kelly McDonald
Right? So if I say to you, I need your help and you go, sure. What's going on? And then I tell you, you're happy to help and it feels good, because that's what we're designed to do is help each other. So stop saying, can you help me? Because it's a dead end. And people are very reluctant to answer that question, especially when they don't know what's going to be asked of them.

00:29:11:22 - 00:29:13:10
Kelly McDonald
Yeah, but I need your help.

00:29:13:10 - 00:29:35:21
Kevin Eikenberry
Opens doors so I'm watching our time and and I want to, this is a this is a hard subject. Like we said it like, one of the reasons like this is hard and and we've sort of taken the high road and we've talked about it and we've given you a lot of practical things, which is what I want to always do here.

00:29:35:23 - 00:29:51:21
Kevin Eikenberry
But I want to tackle one other thing. And we, we have a limited time, so we can't do everything because ultimately, everybody need to go get a copy of Kelly's book, How to Work with and Lead People. Not like you, but but I think as leaders, we need to talk about one of the elephants in the room.

00:29:51:21 - 00:30:11:20
Kevin Eikenberry
And that is what if you have now, this could be us. But I'm really in this case, I'm asking this about others. You've got folks on your team and you believe or you're observing prejudice. We get us a couple of quick things, like, I'm the leader. I see some stuff on my team. It my my observation is it's prejudice.

00:30:11:22 - 00:30:24:20
Kevin Eikenberry
It may not be, but let's assume that we've figured out or we believe that's what it is. What's your advice to us as a leader to help help with that on our team?

00:30:24:22 - 00:30:43:05
Kelly McDonald
I guess I would have one more diagnostic question here, which is is it overt prejudice? Like is it is it actually denying people opportunities and things like that, or is it, unintentional prejudice, you know, where it's not overt, it's just something that's happening and nobody's actually.

00:30:43:07 - 00:30:48:04
Kevin Eikenberry
Aware of it. Okay. So so talk about each just for a minute.

00:30:48:06 - 00:31:12:10
Kelly McDonald
Okay. So overt prejudice, where someone's being passed over for a promotion, you know, something like that, or not giving a fair shot. The best thing that a leader can do is to create advocates within their teams and say, look, we're always you know, those of us in, let's say, leadership positions, managerial positions, we always, always as part of any organization, part of our job is to build the bench, right?

00:31:12:12 - 00:31:31:04
Kelly McDonald
Build the bench, just like a football team who's going to actually go in and get, you know, and get some playing time. And how do we bring those people and sharpen their skills? Well, it's not necessarily going to just happen. And so the best leaders are the ones who actually open the doors for that. It can be with mentoring.

00:31:31:04 - 00:31:56:17
Kelly McDonald
And it can also be with celebrating that person. So one quick story, a friend of mine was, she's a black woman and went early in her career. She had a great boss, and her boss called her into her office one day and said, Denise is going to be retiring in six months. It hasn't been announced yet, but I heard today that it's, you know, she's going to be leaving in six months and retiring.

00:31:56:19 - 00:32:14:05
Kelly McDonald
Do you want her job? And my friend said, yes. Yes. And she said, okay, so we've got six months to get you ready. So what's going to need to happen is I'm going to get you on some committees, and I'm going to introduce you to some people who are going to be making the decisions on this, but you need to get some relevant experience.

00:32:14:05 - 00:32:28:12
Kelly McDonald
So you're going to have to work on these committees. In other words, she wasn't doing the work. She's saying, I'm going to help you get on some committees. I'm going to make people aware of you. Then you're going to have to get on those committees and do the work. And committees are always extra work, you know, beside your regular job.

00:32:28:14 - 00:32:44:05
Kelly McDonald
But the point is, she opened that door to her and had six months to prep her so that when the time came where that position was being discussed and she said, what about joy? Tears? No one in the room was going, who's that?

00:32:44:07 - 00:32:44:21
Kevin Eikenberry
Right?

00:32:44:22 - 00:33:09:04
Kelly McDonald
And no. And everyone was going, oh my gosh, yes, she's been on that committee. They've been doing amazing things. I know her, yes, I she's got a great reputation so we can advocate for each other. And that's a great way to combat prejudice. And in this case it wasn't about prejudice. It was more about, again, like opening doors for someone who might not have the visibility in an organization that they need to get ahead and.

00:33:09:04 - 00:33:11:14
Kevin Eikenberry
Just even know that the door existed in that particular.

00:33:11:14 - 00:33:36:19
Kelly McDonald
Absolutely covered. Absolutely. So I think we can be good advocates and mentors for people. And also really looking at the team and instead of kind of going, okay, this person's next in line, right? It's really easy to plug and play and go, this person's next in line, but a good leader is going to sit back and go, what do we need now and what do we need, let's say 36 months from now?

00:33:36:19 - 00:33:54:18
Kelly McDonald
Like where's the business going? Where's our competition going? What would be the best skill set person that we could find? You know, for this. And they might not be the the next person in line. You know, maybe Robert from accounting has been with the company for 18 years and he's a great guy and all that kind of stuff.

00:33:54:18 - 00:34:21:18
Kelly McDonald
But maybe he doesn't have what it takes to move us forward in changing times or something, and someone else is there. So I think it's about as a leader. It's not about I mean, it's not about prejudice. It's about really like making sure that the opportunities are presented so that you get the best people in the best positions who can really move the business forward, not just the person who was do that.

00:34:21:18 - 00:34:24:09
Kelly McDonald
Hierarchy is getting very dated.

00:34:24:10 - 00:34:40:02
Kevin Eikenberry
Yeah I agree. So so before we go, I have a couple of questions I want to ask. You're going to shift gears now. And so I want to know Kelly McDonald, author of How to Work with and Lead people not Like you. Like, what do you do for fun?

00:34:40:04 - 00:35:01:04
Kelly McDonald
For fun, I, I play cello very, very, very badly, but I'm still plugging away at it and trying to get better. So I've been at it less than three years, and so it's a it's a hard instrument to learn. It's taking me a long time. I also am a boxer, and I don't mean kickboxing. I mean actual, you know, boxing.

00:35:01:04 - 00:35:02:04
Kevin Eikenberry
Boxing, boxing.

00:35:02:04 - 00:35:12:11
Kelly McDonald
Boxing, boxing. Yeah. Yep. And, so I do that and, let's see, I'm also learning to play pickleball. There you go.

00:35:12:13 - 00:35:30:03
Kevin Eikenberry
Pickleball, cello. Boxing. Like that's there. Not many people on the on the planet. They got those three together. Two of the three, maybe, but all three. I don't know about that. So, Kelly, I asked you ahead of time this question, and so. And you said, is it okay if I answer with two? And I'm like, of course it is.

00:35:30:05 - 00:35:31:19
Kevin Eikenberry
What are you reading these days?

00:35:31:21 - 00:35:57:01
Kelly McDonald
I'm reading three books. So one is called out. Think Outperform, and it's by a friend and colleague named Roger Hurley, a new friend, I it's a marketing book and it's got really great tactics for how to take your, you know, how to take marketing to a better level. I'm reading another book by a colleague and friend of mine, and it's called Innovation is Everybody's Business by Tamara Gondor.

00:35:57:01 - 00:36:18:04
Kelly McDonald
And I will spell that it's g h a and d o u r. And what I like about that book is innovation is a hot word and, you know, hot topic in business right now. And yet a lot of people are very intimidated by that word because they think that that's like the real brainiacs that are sitting in the ivory tower, like innovating, you know, coming up with stuff.

00:36:18:06 - 00:36:33:04
Kelly McDonald
Yep. And and it's not for me. Like we have people that are doing that, you know, I don't need to generate ideas or anything like that. And so what she does is really breaks down innovation to make it everybody's business and a very accessible to people. And, it's just a great book. It's a real easy read, too.

00:36:33:09 - 00:36:44:02
Kelly McDonald
And then the third one I'm reading is I am rereading for probably the 10th time. I'm rereading my favorite book of all time, which is To Kill a mockingbird.

00:36:44:04 - 00:37:02:00
Kevin Eikenberry
All right. We will have all three of those in the show notes, for you, as well as a link to to Kelly's book as well. The question that you probably wanted me to ask all the way through, Kelly is, where can we learn more about you? Where do you want to point people? Sure. This is your chance.

00:37:02:02 - 00:37:25:13
Kelly McDonald
Okay, so my website is McDonald marketing.com, and it's just I'm not a I'm a McDonald, not a mac. So it's McDonald marketing.com. And on my LinkedIn, I was where I'm really posting and sharing a lot of stuff that can be useful help, helpful information, tips and tricks and, that my my LinkedIn handle is Kelly C like Kat Kelly C McDonald.

00:37:25:14 - 00:37:36:18
Kelly McDonald
And so you can find me there and yeah, my posts actually generate a lot of, comments and stuff like that. So, you might see a little cello in there too once in a while.

00:37:36:20 - 00:37:55:04
Kevin Eikenberry
Kelly C McDonald McDonald marketing.com. And of course, you can go to her website or you go to wherever you find books are sold. Get a copy of the book. Hope you'll do that. Question. Before we finish. A question that I have for all of you is the question I ask all of you every. There we go. We'll just put this in there real quick.

00:37:55:06 - 00:38:19:03
Kevin Eikenberry
So, so, the question I have for all of you that I ask every single episode is now what? What will you do with what you just got? Because there was lots of great stuff here. And if all you do is listen and then move on to the next podcast, or listen and continue your run, or listen and finish, you're making your dinner.

00:38:19:05 - 00:38:55:08
Kevin Eikenberry
I hope that we're doing more than helping you pass time and maybe even enjoy that, but rather that we're doing something and we're and you're getting something that you can use to change your world, change your results. And, and so that means you get to take action on something. And whether it's, a four word phrase like, I need your help or, five word phrase, tell me more about it, or whatever it might be, whether you start to think about the D word beyond the big five, I don't know what it is for you, but I know that if you will ask yourself that question and take action on what your answer is,

00:38:55:10 - 00:39:00:11
Kevin Eikenberry
you'll get far more from this than you would have otherwise. So, Kelly, thanks for being here.

00:39:00:12 - 00:39:04:02
Kelly McDonald
Thank you for having me, Kevin. You're wonderful. You're a wonderful host.

00:39:04:03 - 00:39:22:19
Kevin Eikenberry
Well, thank you and everybody, if you agree with Kelly that I'm a wonderful host and you make sure you come back next week, because next week we'll be back with another episode. So here's the thing. Wherever you're watching or listening, make sure you like or subscribe and tell a friend and come back next week for another episode of the Remarkable Leadership Podcast.

00:39:22:20 - 00:39:23:10
Kevin Eikenberry
Thanks, everybody.