The Remarkable Leadership Podcast

00:00:08:14 - 00:00:31:05
Kevin Eikenberry
We talk more about mental health at work than we ever have before, in part because of the great work of our guest today. But the conversation quiets when we talk about the mental health of our leaders. And that's an important conversation. And that's. That is the conversation we're having today. It's important for you as an individual leader and for your organization as well.

00:00:31:06 - 00:00:58:18
Kevin Eikenberry
Welcome to another episode of the Remarkable Leadership Podcast, where we are helping organizations and their leaders grow and lead more effectively to make a bigger difference across their teams, communities, and the world. If this is you and you want to lead better and help leaders in your organization do the same. Please accept my gift of my action guide, summarizing the key individual and organizational next steps from our 2025 episodes.

00:00:58:19 - 00:01:22:20
Kevin Eikenberry
And just go to Remarkable Podcast Academy Action Guide. And if you didn't know these are these are done live, live streamed without a net before they become a podcast. If you'd like to get this information sooner, the best way to do that is to know when these are going to happen. So you could get in the know for future episodes by going to our LinkedIn or Facebook groups.

00:01:22:20 - 00:01:42:05
Kevin Eikenberry
Two of the platforms we stream these on first and find that out by going to Remarkable podcast.com/facebook or remarkable podcast.com/linkedin. Do those things and you'll be in the know. And here we go.

00:01:42:07 - 00:01:44:03
Kevin Eikenberry
There's my guest and now I'm.

00:01:44:03 - 00:01:44:17
Melissa Doman
Might.

00:01:44:17 - 00:01:55:13
Kevin Eikenberry
Know. And then I lost my note. So let me get him back of his life and introduce Miss Melissa. Dormant. Dormant. Melissa. Dormancy. I messed it up, Melissa.

00:01:55:15 - 00:01:58:14
Melissa Doman
It's okay. So many people do. Don't worry about it.

00:01:58:14 - 00:02:31:21
Kevin Eikenberry
It's Melissa home. And she is, she has a master's in organizational psychology. She's a former mental health therapist. She's the founder of the workplace mental health health method. She's the author of two books. Yes, you can talk about mental health at work and her new book, Cornered Office Why We Need to Talk about leadership, mental health. She works with companies including clients like, Google, progressive, Estée Lauder, the MLS team of Orlando City Soccer, Microsoft and Salesforce.

00:02:32:01 - 00:02:52:10
Kevin Eikenberry
She's spoken and mentored and s at South by Southwest and has been featured as a subject matter expert in places like CNN and Vogue and NPR and Fast Company and the BBC, and you get the idea. She's also one of LinkedIn's top ten voices on mental health. She helps companies, individuals and leaders to have constructive conversations about mental health.

00:02:52:10 - 00:02:57:15
Kevin Eikenberry
And that's exactly what we're going to do today. Melissa, welcome.

00:02:57:17 - 00:03:00:17
Melissa Doman
Thank you so much. I've really been looking forward to this.

00:03:00:19 - 00:03:20:18
Kevin Eikenberry
I believe you are the first. You're the first person I remember 540 some episodes. I think you're the first person who's been on the show who's also also been in vogue. Like, there you go. Like, I don't know, I don't remember. I don't remember introducing anyone else and saying they were they were in vogue.

00:03:20:20 - 00:03:27:11
Melissa Doman
It was definitely something that was not on my career. Bingo card, for sure. That was a good day.

00:03:27:13 - 00:03:44:06
Kevin Eikenberry
Well, sure it was. Of course it was. So. So, listen, why did you write this book? So you wrote this other book about workplace mental health. And then you decided to write a book about leadership, mental health. You talk in the very beginning about why it was so hard for you to start writing it, which you can tell.

00:03:44:08 - 00:03:49:04
Kevin Eikenberry
Yeah, but first, why the book to start with? Why you and. Well.

00:03:49:06 - 00:04:12:18
Melissa Doman
You know, for years I had really lost count of the number of leaders, whether it was in, you know, one on one leadership coaching sessions or, workshops, things like that, where they were having panic attacks, they were having anxiety, they were angry. They just felt completely helpless, like they were having just endless, endless, endless expectations and things put on their shoulders.

00:04:12:20 - 00:04:33:15
Melissa Doman
And being asked to further dehumanize themselves in the process. And to be honest, you know, I, I was part of the problem as far back as 2018, and I was living in London at the time with my husband and I was doing, mental health awareness campaign for a company. And I was trying to train up the leaders about how to talk to their teens about mental health.

00:04:33:17 - 00:05:00:00
Melissa Doman
And halfway through, one of the, participants said, well, all this information is well and good. You haven't asked us about how we even feel about learning this skill set. And what's going on for us. And I was mortified because just like everybody else, I was completely socially conditioned to look at leaders based on the titles and not based on the humans holding the titles, and that that's when it changed.

00:05:00:00 - 00:05:25:02
Melissa Doman
It totally changed for me. And so I started viewing leaders in a very different way. For the past eight years, and I just had so much information and so much of the same themes over and over and over again. And I was like, well, leaders are not allowed to use their inside voices, so I, I'm going to have to be the vessel for information, and I will gladly do so.

00:05:25:04 - 00:05:43:01
Melissa Doman
And, that's that's why I was like, I don't understand why leaders are being asked to do more and more and more, and the support to do more is not growing in kind. It just didn't make sense to me. And I wrote rage, wrote 75,000 words on it.

00:05:43:03 - 00:05:55:22
Kevin Eikenberry
So you say in the very beginning of the book that you got ready to write and you couldn't. And I'm not asking you to. I'm not asking you this. So like to bare your soul, although you've already done it.

00:05:56:01 - 00:05:57:01
Melissa Doman
No, I don't I a.

00:05:57:01 - 00:06:05:14
Kevin Eikenberry
Very specific reason why I want to ask. So so so please. So give people that context and then I'll, I'll make, make the comment that I want to make.

00:06:05:16 - 00:06:13:08
Melissa Doman
Well I, I'm kind of allergic to self-aggrandizing authors if I'm honest. So I, I really like to be honest when.

00:06:13:09 - 00:06:15:22
Kevin Eikenberry
There's the woman who's on a podcast talking about.

00:06:16:01 - 00:06:20:20
Melissa Doman
Oh, hey, listen, blame my publicist, but but you got to let.

00:06:20:20 - 00:06:25:23
Kevin Eikenberry
You, you didn't you, you turned down like you turned down the camera. I'm just teasing you. Go ahead.

00:06:26:01 - 00:06:47:00
Melissa Doman
But, you know, I, I like to be honest. If I'm if I'm going to plead my case for people to to consider something that kind of goes against the grain, not only do I have to make an airtight, irrefutable case fueled by logic, but also I need to be honest about the process because I want to humanize myself as the writer.

00:06:47:01 - 00:07:12:11
Melissa Doman
I want to humanize myself beyond my job title, and let them know that I don't take writing about this lightly because if you're going to take a long term held idea that's still firmly planted in most places, then you have to show that you're really taking the task seriously, even if the task is overwhelming. And so I said, you know, I don't specialize in leadership.

00:07:12:13 - 00:07:29:12
Melissa Doman
However, I know people and I know mental health and leaders are people with mental health. And so that's what the book is about, is about the mental health of these people, not about leadership. And so I wanted to make that distinction very clear.

00:07:29:13 - 00:07:58:02
Kevin Eikenberry
And you did it right from the start. And the reason I wanted to highlight it is that, because you've you said it before and there's a whole chapter in the book about the identity of the leader, and there's some societal identities. We're going to get to that in a second. But there's all this stuff that we as leaders, by title by position, might hold in our own heads, and we have to be able to separate that role or identity from the fact that we are humans first.

00:07:58:07 - 00:08:06:15
Kevin Eikenberry
And that's why I wanted to bring that up, because I think it's such an important thing. So what's the big or biggest idea in the book?

00:08:06:19 - 00:08:45:15
Melissa Doman
Melissa the biggest idea is that we need to get people to accept that success and struggle exist in the same body, and that's even more important to accept within a leadership role. Period. And the fact that that is not only largely unrecognized, but also discouraged when it comes to leadership is the key to breaking sustainable leadership. So that that's really it is to make it logically clear and accepted that success and struggle exist in the same body.

00:08:45:15 - 00:09:14:14
Melissa Doman
And definitely in positions of leadership. If it's treated any other way than that, then we can't ask. I mean, there are plenty of leaders out there who do bad things, regardless of how much support they get or anything. Let's be very honest about that of the 8 billion people on the planet. But for other leaders where we don't prepare them for the emotional realities and the toll of leadership, let alone not normalizing talking about stuff outside of work, you can't ask questions of like, what?

00:09:14:15 - 00:09:30:11
Melissa Doman
Why are they letting us down? Or they're acting out or why they acting like this? Gosh, I wonder, is it because you're putting more and more on their shoulders and then criticizing them when they talk about the weight? It just doesn't make any sense.

00:09:30:13 - 00:09:53:20
Kevin Eikenberry
Yeah. You're describing, I think in conversation the two things can be true. That might seem as as opposites or paradoxes. You talk about paradox a lot in the book, which yeah, yeah, yeah. And so I think it's a really important point for us all to hear. Now, I said something in the open that is that, you know, I'm not the mental health expert.

00:09:53:20 - 00:10:23:01
Kevin Eikenberry
You are right. But it's my observation that it is far more common to talk about mental health at work today than it used to be, that it's far more accepted to talk about mental health at work than it used to be. And I actually believe that. Speaking of and conversations for all of the bad things about Covid, one of the good things about Covid is this that that statement that I just made is true.

00:10:23:03 - 00:10:33:03
Kevin Eikenberry
And I think it's true in part because it was so different and it was impacting people in so many ways that we had to let people talk. We had to talk about, agree or disagree.

00:10:33:05 - 00:11:02:12
Melissa Doman
A million times. Agree because it's always it's always been important. And, you know, my first book I wrote during the pandemic, during lockdown and I emailed my publisher, I was like, hey, I need to add like three chapters based on, you know, gestures to everything around us happening. And they were like that. Yes. It makes sense. But it was always important and it was starting to gain a little bit of traction, before the pandemic, largely actually in the UK, where we were based at the time.

00:11:02:14 - 00:11:13:09
Melissa Doman
And but then the pandemic happened and everybody was like, oh, we can't pretend to compartmentalize anymore because we're just not in the mentally survive this.

00:11:13:10 - 00:11:20:07
Kevin Eikenberry
And so and how do you compartmentalize when you're when your office is seven feet from your bed? Right.

00:11:20:09 - 00:11:21:21
Melissa Doman
Well, I also come from.

00:11:21:23 - 00:11:24:00
Kevin Eikenberry
Them from your kitchen. Right.

00:11:24:02 - 00:11:48:02
Melissa Doman
It's a very you know, it's a learned, adapted, very unnatural behavior for being honest. And also it showed how unsustainable it is and the problems it can lead to and the, the approach I take and I haven't lost anybody yet is it's really tough out there and really, really tough in here for anybody listening to the podcast and pointing out my window and then pointing at my head.

00:11:48:04 - 00:12:09:06
Melissa Doman
So why not just be honest about that and then focus on equipping people with the education skills they need so they can cope with, you know, being alive, the cost of doing business, as my sister says, or, you know, things as they come up at work, or if they do struggle with a mental health condition or just the daily stresses of work and life integration.

00:12:09:08 - 00:12:28:05
Melissa Doman
So I really approach it as a form of conversational literacy that every person needs at some point in their career, based on what's appropriate for them. So Covid in a lot of ways really did open up that conversation because, you just couldn't avoid it anymore.

00:12:28:07 - 00:12:49:11
Kevin Eikenberry
You said something in the, in the story that you told earlier where you were, you were working working with a bunch of leaders, helping them think about and dealing with the mental health challenges of their teams. And the leaders said, well, wait a minute, what about us? Yeah. And and the thing that I said to people all through, leaders all through the pandemic is, listen, if you don't and, you know, I've said I'm not a mental health expert.

00:12:49:15 - 00:13:12:10
Kevin Eikenberry
So I always talked about mental fitness, like how to like, you know, and so I said, if you you can't create mental fitness for others if you're not mentally fit yourself, like if you can't take can't or don't take care of you, you can't take care of your team the way you want to. And to me, that's one of the big ideas of the book, although you say it more eloquently.

00:13:12:12 - 00:13:30:08
Kevin Eikenberry
So, I want to, I want to I want to come. We have to come back to why this all matters organization. Yeah, but. Yeah. What would you say about what I just said? That point that. Hey, if your tanks empty, you can't help anybody, you know? So let's talk about that for a minute.

00:13:30:10 - 00:13:59:22
Melissa Doman
I mean, gosh, it's it's it's so painfully logical that the fact that we need to talk about it is, is, I would say, for me, infuriate, because I'm like, I'm like logic. And people go, but no social bias and narrative. And I just get I'm like, just breathe, just breathe. So the thing is, what we ask of leaders now more than ever, I don't think necessarily that past generations of leaders could necessarily cope with.

00:14:00:00 - 00:14:26:10
Melissa Doman
And so if you look at today, being a leader today, the level of productivity expected, the outcomes, the results, the speed at which you do things, the number of things that you're responsible for. And again, not just output, but also watching out for well-being for your team, being emotionally intelligent, being literate in DB, you know, managing the onslaught of AI.

00:14:26:10 - 00:15:01:17
Melissa Doman
You know, there's so many things that leaders have to do. I just don't understand how they can effectively, or even at a minimum, decently do all of that and perform, not burnout, not take it out on other people without having mental health self-management as a part of leadership development. It's just not possible. And so I, I, I realize I might sound like a broken record, but, you know, leaders are such a critical part of the ecosystem of an organization.

00:15:01:19 - 00:15:23:00
Melissa Doman
And if you have any hope of achieving homeostasis or being to being able to and adapt and evolve the it's like the oxygen mask metaphor you have to put on your own so you don't pass out. So you put it on for other people. And, I'm smiling and saying it like this because I'm like, I can't be the only person seeing the.

00:15:23:02 - 00:15:28:06
Kevin Eikenberry
You know, I don't I don't think you are so, so.

00:15:28:08 - 00:15:47:22
Kevin Eikenberry
All of this sounds like, well, it makes sense. And all of this sounds like, well, that'd be really nice for those people. And isn't it hard for readers? And yet the question is a different question, right? The question is a different question. Are you there?

00:15:48:00 - 00:15:48:19
Melissa Doman
Yeah.

00:15:48:21 - 00:16:10:04
Kevin Eikenberry
Okay. I'm having a computer challenge. I can't see you. As long as you can see me. That's all I need to worry about right now. Yeah. So, so the question is a different one, and that is not only not is this just a nice thing to do for our leaders? Why does this matter to our businesses?

00:16:10:06 - 00:16:39:20
Melissa Doman
I mean, not to sound like a dispassionate, ardent capitalist, but if you care about the bottom line and you care about achieving your goals and growing as a company, I mean, talking about mental health is just smart business and especially for your leaders. So there is enough data out there to prove the return on investment case, which, by the way, there is so much data on the ROI for mental health for employees.

00:16:39:22 - 00:17:06:10
Melissa Doman
Riddle me this. Why that's not applied to leaders. It just it doesn't make sense to me. And so when they show that it leads to lower sickness absence it leads to better productivity, better interpersonal communication, less attrition from the business. You know, it's all there. It's all been proven. But what we find is that the leaders are measured in the data and ignored, and the recommendations to take from said data.

00:17:06:12 - 00:17:18:14
Melissa Doman
So it's already been proven about why it's good for business beyond the like human case and bleeding heart case, which never moves the needle. So it's already there. It's already been proven.

00:17:18:16 - 00:17:41:20
Kevin Eikenberry
Okay, so, we've talked a little bit about sort of, sort of some of the background. The job is harder in a more complex and uncertain world than ever. And all those things are true. And we got more projects and more employees and all those things we got all of that is true. And there's and there's how we thought about leadership for 75 or for, like, our lifetimes or longer.

00:17:42:01 - 00:17:53:20
Kevin Eikenberry
And all of those. And yet, it's my sense that individual leaders are actually making all of this worse for themselves.

00:17:53:22 - 00:17:55:00
Melissa Doman
Some of them.

00:17:55:02 - 00:17:57:06
Kevin Eikenberry
Why?

00:17:57:08 - 00:18:03:21
Melissa Doman
Well, how long do you have, my friend? But we don't have, you know, we don't have that long. Oh, I.

00:18:03:21 - 00:18:05:08
Kevin Eikenberry
Want to ask you, Melissa.

00:18:05:08 - 00:18:06:00
Melissa Doman
I.

00:18:06:02 - 00:18:06:13
Kevin Eikenberry


00:18:06:14 - 00:18:32:08
Melissa Doman
So let let me give you the high level answer for the sake of time. There are. So the power of story is really, really strong. Now, whether that's within yourself, whether it's from the circles that you've run in, you know, your identity, culture, ethnicity, the industry you came up in, whatever it is, there are very, very powerful stories that leaders tell themselves about why they have to endlessly self-sacrifice ad nauseum.

00:18:32:10 - 00:18:58:14
Melissa Doman
So there are some leaders that have decided in stone that self sacrifice is the only way, and that however things end up, is how they need to end up. Because this is the way it's done. And that's why I talk about I came up with these seven leadership mental health archetypes with different like, metaphors and, you know, imagery and, animals.

00:18:58:14 - 00:19:01:10
Melissa Doman
Yeah. You know, because you have to.

00:19:01:12 - 00:19:04:02
Kevin Eikenberry
Be CEOs, everybody. We're supposed to be a seal.

00:19:04:03 - 00:19:05:05
Melissa Doman
Sea otter.

00:19:05:07 - 00:19:06:06
Kevin Eikenberry
Sea otter. Sorry.

00:19:06:08 - 00:19:35:01
Melissa Doman
Sea otter. Close enough. But yeah. And, you know, you got to look at the behaviors that you demonstrate, the things you say, the actions, because it in some ways keeps you in the same cycle and teaches the people you lead, that you're not human and you don't need support. But however, we also have to look at the environment and the the ways that we've been conditioned to get to that point because they certainly didn't get there on their own.

00:19:35:02 - 00:19:58:02
Melissa Doman
So, however, there are some environment that encourage them not to do those self-sacrificing behaviors, and they're so blinded and stuck in the process that they don't know how to get out. There may be reasonably afraid, because you and I can both agree not every environment is safe for this conversation. Not every company is safe for this conversation.

00:19:58:04 - 00:20:08:07
Melissa Doman
So some of them do it to their own detriment, and others do it because they're they're understandably afraid of the risks of disclosure in that environment.

00:20:08:09 - 00:20:33:09
Kevin Eikenberry
So in our conversation, we've talked about sort of why what the problem is, why it's a problem. And at some level, what matters is what comes next. How do we fix it? How do we change it? So yeah, let's take a minute or two and talk about it on two levels, like what are what if if you know that right now you're in that year of leaders, what do they need to know?

00:20:33:09 - 00:20:52:13
Kevin Eikenberry
Where do they need to start? Yeah, as an individual leader, if they're hearing you and saying me and Melissa is is pegging me, I feel what she's describing. I mean, I'm in that spot. Yeah. What she going to tell me? I need to be thinking about or doing.

00:20:52:15 - 00:21:20:21
Melissa Doman
So I'm actually going to give a very, I don't think the word is easy, but I will say less scary place to start. That's a good first. Yeah. The first thing I'm going to recommend is not just jumping into the conversation. That's that's not what what they, what they need to do. The first thing they need to do is have a very, very serious internal self-reflection on, do I actually want to talk about my mental health as a leader?

00:21:20:23 - 00:21:39:03
Melissa Doman
If I do, what do I want to share? Why do I want to share it? What what do I want people to do with this information? How do I want them to view me? What is my statement of intention that I'll share by bringing this up? What am I going to tell them about what I'm prepared to do with what I'm sharing?

00:21:39:03 - 00:21:59:01
Melissa Doman
Because you can't just share about mental health and not how you're managing it. That's what a lot of people miss. And also like I mentioned before, have a very honest conversation with yourself of can you even have this conversation at your company? Because not all companies will. There are many companies that will say what they will and won't be listened to.

00:21:59:01 - 00:22:18:11
Melissa Doman
Them. So the goal is that we want to get as many leaders and as many companies as possible, making this the norm. So the ones who don't do it are like the weird ones in the corner. So the first thing that leaders need to do is have that conversation with themselves. Because otherwise you're kind of like jumping into this conversation, hoping it's going to turn out well.

00:22:18:11 - 00:22:20:17
Melissa Doman
And that's not an approach I recommend.

00:22:20:19 - 00:22:48:04
Kevin Eikenberry
So let me just add something to what you said. And that is yeah, we we need to be clear about whether it's safe or would be welcome for us to have this conversation in our workplace, for sure. And depending on how hardened you are yourself, you may assume that to be true when it isn't so. So don't immediately say, well, no, no one will want to hear this.

00:22:48:06 - 00:22:50:04
Melissa Doman
I need to add to what you're saying when you're done.

00:22:50:09 - 00:22:52:15
Kevin Eikenberry
Yeah, I'm that's that's what I'm going to say.

00:22:52:17 - 00:23:12:15
Melissa Doman
So big. Yes. You completely reminded me a big thing I forgot to mention, which, if you're hesitant to talk about it, you have to figure out where that hesitancy and fear comes from. Is that from baggage? Based on previous jobs, previous bosses, as they're based on the current environment, does it have to do with none of that?

00:23:12:15 - 00:23:28:15
Melissa Doman
And it's just your stuff. So make sure that you know, the the source of that concern, because you might be carrying and things that are not, accurate to the reality that you're in.

00:23:28:17 - 00:23:50:11
Kevin Eikenberry
So the other question I have to ask before we start to round out our conversation, please, as an organization. Yeah. Like we hear you, Melissa, as an organization. And we'd like to start to we'd like to start to turn this corner for the mental health of the leaders in our company, in our organization. What's what's a piece or two of advice?

00:23:50:11 - 00:23:55:10
Kevin Eikenberry
Where should the other than getting your book, like where should they start?

00:23:55:12 - 00:24:20:11
Melissa Doman
Well, duplicate what you're doing for employees and do it for leaders. That's the thing is, we don't have to reinvent the wheel. So, you know, there is no reason that mental health self-management should not be part of leadership development programs. Why aren't there internal leadership, peer support groups, just like there are for ERGs, employee resource groups within organizations.

00:24:20:13 - 00:24:45:22
Melissa Doman
Why aren't you telling leaders that they should also use the resources that you're encouraging them to send their employees to? You know why? Why is there not, an effort around shifting narrative around leadership, mental health within the organization, just like for mental health for the rest of the organization? So I'm not trying to sound catty or anything, but I'm like, all the frameworks exist just apply it to to leaders.

00:24:46:00 - 00:25:05:20
Kevin Eikenberry
And I think the important thing that you that you didn't say but mean is this. And that is just because you say, well, the leaders are employees, so they of course they can. They're not hearing that. And so we gotta make it absolutely explicit. In some cases they need something different. But even if they don't.

00:25:06:00 - 00:25:06:07
Melissa Doman
Something.

00:25:06:12 - 00:25:16:19
Kevin Eikenberry
Different. Yeah. They're not unless we unless we are intentional and specific. Yeah. They think they're that explicit.

00:25:16:19 - 00:25:48:03
Melissa Doman
And and I can tell you as a former EAP counselor myself. So anybody listening please you use your EAP. EAP is most underutilized but amazing resource that's available within within businesses. So I spoke to hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people when I was in the AP counselor, and barely any of the people who called in were managers because they were afraid and the occasional ones who did.

00:25:48:05 - 00:26:13:18
Melissa Doman
Even when I explained, as a mandated reporter, you know, everything you say is confidential except in cases of harm to self, harm to others, child abuse or elder abuse. And they go, wait, what are you going to tell my company? I go, not unless you do one of those things. So there's such a fear as, as, you know, a leader to use these resources, and they're just told you know, send employees to this, you know, be the beacon of support.

00:26:13:18 - 00:26:17:15
Melissa Doman
Yes, of course, do that, but also use it yourself.

00:26:17:17 - 00:26:24:00
Kevin Eikenberry
Yeah, I love that. Yeah. So Melissa, you we could have a much longer conversation and.

00:26:24:05 - 00:26:25:10
Melissa Doman
Yes, we could.

00:26:25:12 - 00:26:36:12
Kevin Eikenberry
Today. Is there any specific thing that you wish I'd have asked that I didn't?

00:26:36:14 - 00:26:43:09
Melissa Doman
Maybe, if I have a funny key takeaway for folks, I got a funny one.

00:26:43:11 - 00:26:44:10
Kevin Eikenberry
Go.

00:26:44:12 - 00:26:57:06
Melissa Doman
I think that we need to stop treating, leaders like superheroes because we don't even give them the outfits. Can't treat him like a superhero if they don't get the outfit.

00:26:57:08 - 00:27:06:18
Kevin Eikenberry
There you go. Everybody, if you want. If you're watching this, you know that Kevin's outfit is always the blue shirt, but there is no kink. There's no no.

00:27:06:18 - 00:27:08:02
Melissa Doman
Okay.

00:27:08:04 - 00:27:13:04
Kevin Eikenberry
So, I'm curious. Melissa, what you're reading. What are you reading these days?

00:27:13:06 - 00:27:43:18
Melissa Doman
I am reading, actually. It's quite the long title, The Righteous Mind. Why good people are divided by politics and religion. Real page turner. And also, yes, the righteous mind, by Jonathan Haidt H. I he's a sociologist. And then also reading, Radical Respect, which is Tim Scott's, second or third book. She created the radical candor model, which I'm obsessed with.

00:27:43:18 - 00:27:53:04
Melissa Doman
And Kim actually graciously endorsed the second book. So I was really, really honored. So those are the two things I'm, I'm reading right now.

00:27:53:06 - 00:28:05:14
Kevin Eikenberry
So speaking of the latest book for those watching, I'm going to hold it up here in a second. Where can people connect with you? Learn more about what you're up to. All those things, as well as get a copy of the book.

00:28:05:16 - 00:28:36:07
Melissa Doman
So the book. Yes, there it is. The book is available in hardback and e-book, across all major retailers. You know, online and in store, working on details for an audiobook. So stay tuned. My website is Melissa Domain.com. So, my clients or businesses, if you're looking for any, you know, keynotes, fireside interviews, workshops, strategic consulting around mental health communication and team dynamics in the workplace.

00:28:36:07 - 00:28:52:16
Melissa Doman
Please reach out. I would love to help. And, I do things edutainment style so, you know, so people can actually enjoy what they're learning. And then on LinkedIn, just connect with me. Melissa Dillman and Instagram is at the Wandering Mel.

00:28:52:17 - 00:29:12:01
Kevin Eikenberry
The Wandering Mel, Melissa Domain.com everybody. So before I say goodbye to Melissa and before I say goodbye to all of you, I have to ask you the question that I ask you every single episode. If there are two things that are common about this Kevin's going to have on a blue shirt, and I'm going to ask you this question now, what?

00:29:12:03 - 00:29:30:07
Kevin Eikenberry
What are you going to do as a result of being here? Melissa gave you some very specific things you could do as an organization, as you do as an individual leader. And it may be one of those things that may be something else. I am not here to adjudicate or suggest what you do. I am here to encourage you to take some action.

00:29:30:13 - 00:29:43:06
Kevin Eikenberry
Because if you don't, the chances of you getting the value that you could have gotten from this very important conversation go drastically down. Melissa, thank you so much for being here. It was a pleasure to have you.

00:29:43:08 - 00:29:45:19
Melissa Doman
Thank you so much. I really enjoyed it.

00:29:45:21 - 00:30:07:22
Kevin Eikenberry
And so everybody, if you enjoyed this, make sure you subscribe wherever you watch or listen so you don't miss any future episodes, please. And tell somebody else so they can do the same. And maybe you want to share this episode with someone not because you think they have poor mental health, but because you know that they could get value from this as well.

00:30:08:00 - 00:30:13:13
Kevin Eikenberry
Thank you all for being here. I'll be back next week with another episode of the Remarkable Leadership Podcast.