The Remarkable Leadership Podcast

00:00:08:11 - 00:00:33:07
Kevin Eikenberry
No one will argue about the importance of wellness at work, and we all have opinions about how we might be able to improve it in our workplaces. The question is, do our opinions line up with the research and what really works? Stay with us and you will learn about this research. Perhaps have some of your perspectives validated, but I'm guessing you will leave with new perspectives on this important topic.

00:00:33:09 - 00:01:03:12
Kevin Eikenberry
Welcome to another episode of the Remarkable Leadership Podcast, where we are helping leaders grow personally and professionally to lead more effectively and make a bigger, positive difference in their world for their teams and organizations. If you are listening to this podcast, you could be joining us in the future for live episodes on your favorite social media platform. You can find out when those live episodes are taking place and therefore interact with us and quite honestly, see them sooner in this case.

00:01:03:14 - 00:01:29:01
Kevin Eikenberry
It would have been about two months sooner. And to do that, you can join our Facebook or LinkedIn groups. Just two of the places where these are live streamed. And so to learn more about that and to get connected, just go to remarkable podcast.com/facebook or remarkable Podcast Academy LinkedIn and you'll be in the know and ready to go.

00:01:29:03 - 00:01:53:16
Kevin Eikenberry
Today's episode is brought to you by my latest book, Flexible Leadership. Navigate Uncertainty and Lead with Confidence. It's time to realize that styles can get in our way, and that following our strengths might not always be the best approach in a world more complex and uncertain than ever. Leaders need a new perspective and a set of tools that helps them create the great results their organizations and teams want and need.

00:01:53:18 - 00:02:18:17
Kevin Eikenberry
And that's what flexible leadership provides you. Learn more. Order your copy today at remarkable podcast.com/flexible. And with that I'm going to bring in my guests. Yes guests not one but two guests today. And let me introduce, if you're with me live you can see their smiling faces. Let me introduce them to you and then we'll dive in. First.

00:02:18:18 - 00:02:44:23
Kevin Eikenberry
Patricia Grabar, PhD is that co-founder. And they're nodding like, I got it right. Worker hugging and a season industrial organizational psychologist specializing in workplace wellness, organizational culture, employee engagement, diversity, inclusion, and leadership development with a background in both consulting and internal roles. Doctor Gaborik has led people analytics and talent management initiatives for over 60 organizations across many industries.

00:02:45:00 - 00:03:10:14
Kevin Eikenberry
Her work focuses on research based strategies to improve wellbeing, retention, performance, and diversity efforts. Her insights have appeared in The New York Times, Excuse Me, the Los Angeles Times, CBS news, and CBC radio. She has a PhD and a master of Science in Industrial organization psychology from Penn State. We are, I suppose, and, B.A. in psychology from UCLA.

00:03:10:16 - 00:03:37:21
Kevin Eikenberry
Go, Bruins. Katrina Sawyer, Ph.D., is an industrial and organizational psychologist, cofounder with Patricia of Worker Being and an associate professor of management and organizations at the University of Arizona's Eller College of Management. A leading expert in work life balance, leadership, and positive workplace behaviors and diversity. She has published more than 50 peer reviewed studies, books, chapters, and articles in outlets like Harvard Business Review.

00:03:37:23 - 00:04:03:17
Kevin Eikenberry
Her work has been featured in major media like The Washington Post, Bloomberg Businessweek, The Atlantic, and Forbes, and, She has received grants from places like the National Science Foundation and Sherm together. And why they're both here is that they've written this book together called A leading for wellness. How to create a team culture Where Everybody thrives. Welcome to both of you.

00:04:03:17 - 00:04:07:14
Kevin Eikenberry
So glad that you're both here. And, welcome.

00:04:07:16 - 00:04:09:12
Katina Sawyer
Thank you. Happy to be here.

00:04:09:14 - 00:04:11:18
Patricia Grabarek
So excited to be here.

00:04:11:20 - 00:04:18:03
Kevin Eikenberry
That's the first time there's a member of my team, Patricia. That'll be very happy that I said we are.

00:04:18:05 - 00:04:19:06
Patricia Grabarek
Yeah, I can say that.

00:04:19:07 - 00:04:42:17
Kevin Eikenberry
You're lying. Nittany lion. Okay. So I want to ask this question. Katina was with me first, and so she said that the two of you have been friends for a long time. There for a long time, which is awesome. But I'm curious, sort of. What's the journey that leads to the book? Like, sort of give one of you give me the backstory of how we end up with this lovely book.

00:04:42:19 - 00:05:02:04
Patricia Grabarek
Sure. I'll go ahead and get us started. So, yes, Katie and I have been friends for a very long time. She is also a Penn State Nittany Lions. We met in grad school. How we got to the book. We years ago were at a friend's wedding and have a few glasses of wine. We were talking about the challenges that organizations are having in really solving wellness.

00:05:02:04 - 00:05:08:07
Patricia Grabarek
Right. There's a lot of there are a lot of problems with retention and engagement and burnout. But no one is really.

00:05:08:07 - 00:05:12:05
Kevin Eikenberry
This is what you decided to talk about after three glasses of wine at the wedding?

00:05:12:07 - 00:05:14:00
Katina Sawyer
Like, we care about it a lot.

00:05:14:01 - 00:05:18:15
Kevin Eikenberry
Obviously, our focus on their work just say it clearly.

00:05:18:16 - 00:05:42:00
Patricia Grabarek
We might be a little dorky. But we, you know, we, we went to grad school together. This is stuff we love, right? It's a very good point, though. We probably should be talking about something a little bit more fun. But we were talking about this, and, we we ultimately decided that the research that talks about workplace wellness and how to really create good work environments was just not getting out there the way it should be.

00:05:42:01 - 00:06:01:22
Patricia Grabarek
So the types of wellness solutions that were out there were not, having the impact that people would hope they would have. And so we started with writing articles, and we have a podcast of our own where we talked about workplace wellness. But as we were diving into the research and really having these conversations, we're realizing there's two almost too much out there, right?

00:06:01:22 - 00:06:23:18
Patricia Grabarek
So not enough research was getting out into the world, but there's so much of it. And it wasn't in a cohesive, like truly usable fashion. So we decided to do some of our own research to figure out, like, what are the key drivers of thriving work environments? And ultimately, we learned that leaders and the day to day experience with your leaders and your team are what impacts your wellbeing overall.

00:06:23:20 - 00:06:39:15
Patricia Grabarek
So we went out to understand what really strong leaders that we call generators do. Well, and that led us to the book. So we created a framework and we're lucky enough to get support from Wiley and publish it for all of you to read.

00:06:39:17 - 00:07:05:19
Kevin Eikenberry
We'll come back to generators in a few minutes. But, Katina, you write a book and we've got the background, the backstory. It all started with three glasses of wine. But but and also my my question for you, Katina, is like, what's the big idea? I mean, we sort of know now what the genesis of the book is, but, I want people to leave not only with great ideas, great insights from our conversation, but I hope they go want to go by the book.

00:07:05:21 - 00:07:08:01
Kevin Eikenberry
And so what's the big idea.

00:07:08:02 - 00:07:36:02
Katina Sawyer
Of the book? The the big idea, I think, is that if you want to improve wellness at work, you need to start with leaders and stop relying on wellness programing and initiatives. That's the big idea. I think a lot of corporations have sort of outsourced their wellness, initiatives or outsourced their focus on wellness to these programs or one offs or add ons and sort of assume that if they have those, then wellness is taken care of.

00:07:36:04 - 00:07:42:10
Katina Sawyer
And in reality, in our research, we did not hear a lot about that. And, the.

00:07:42:10 - 00:07:47:15
Kevin Eikenberry
Ping pong table three number isn't enough. Is that?

00:07:47:17 - 00:07:50:14
Katina Sawyer
Exactly. Exactly.

00:07:50:16 - 00:08:09:23
Kevin Eikenberry
But we will come back to that idea of generators in a second. But. But, Patricia, let's just make sure we're all on the same page. The book is titled leading for wellness. And and in in the introduction of you guys, I mentioned the phrase workplace wellness, and I even use that in the intro. How would you, as one of the authors, define that?

00:08:10:01 - 00:08:13:10
Kevin Eikenberry
Like what is workplace wellness?

00:08:13:12 - 00:08:31:08
Patricia Grabarek
Workplace wellness? I mean, there hasn't been a very strong definition for it until we worked on this for the book, we were like, we need to find out what people are actually meaning when they say workplace wellness. A lot of people are throwing that term around. So we ask people we in our studies, we asked folks, what do you mean by workplace wellness?

00:08:31:12 - 00:08:58:07
Patricia Grabarek
And we learned as it's very individual. But there's a couple key things that kept popping up. Physical health, emotional health, mental health and work life balance. So people ultimately want to feel like they're thriving from a personal perspective. Physically, they're not overstressed, overworked, depressed, burnt out. And they want to feel like they're able to balance their work in their life in a way that's meaningful to them.

00:08:58:09 - 00:09:26:00
Patricia Grabarek
Work life balance, I think, also often carries a lot of, connotations of like, some equal perfect balance between work and life, like 5050. That's not what it looks like. Every individual kind of has their own definition. Right? And like maybe it changes throughout your lifetime as you've go through different phases of your life. So it's really more about how you feel, that you feel that you're in balance and like you're getting what you need from your job and your work, and you're getting what you need from your personal life as well.

00:09:26:02 - 00:09:50:04
Kevin Eikenberry
I wish, and this is maybe not my biggest wish, but one of my wishes is if I could go into the Wayback machine, I would not have ever. We would not be using the word work, the phrase workplace balance. Because I think your work life balance. Because I think. Exactly. Patricia, you got that right, that it somehow implies that there's a right answer, or that it's 50%, or that there's there's there's some magical place.

00:09:50:06 - 00:10:18:07
Kevin Eikenberry
And I think that's true as you are, as you just said. So, Catena, you've done all this research and, and, and we're going to talk about some of it and there's a lot of it in the book, obviously. As you talk to people now, as you're talking about the book or you're having conversations with folks, what is the what is the thing that you're sharing that is perhaps the biggest surprise to people, or same thing stated a different way.

00:10:18:08 - 00:10:26:16
Kevin Eikenberry
You said part of this already or how people are getting it wrong, but like, is are there other ways they're getting it wrong? Or what's the biggest surprise?

00:10:26:18 - 00:10:54:15
Katina Sawyer
Yeah, I think that I do think it's a surprise to people to learn that the wellness initiatives that they've been investing in may not be things that people are actually thinking about when they say that they, you know, feel that their workplace wellness is supported. That does seem to be a surprise. I think something else that's a surprise is that people think about investing in leaders as an investment in their ability to grow their leadership skills from more of a task perspective, and sometimes from an interpersonal perspective, too.

00:10:54:18 - 00:11:18:13
Katina Sawyer
But they don't really think about leaders as being the core mechanism or lever for driving workplace wellness. And they don't realize that when they drive workplace wellness. It also helps them to achieve their leadership goals and results and productivity. So they often see these things as at odds. Well, if I want to make people happy and I want people to be, you know, productive at the same time, well, I have to pick one.

00:11:18:13 - 00:11:37:14
Katina Sawyer
Or if I give people the opportunity to do something that's more life focused, it's taking away from their work as opposed to amplifying their ability to be productive at work. And I think that, recognition or that light bulb moment that these actually go together and reinforce each other is something that people find, somewhat surprising.

00:11:37:16 - 00:11:40:10
Kevin Eikenberry
Patricia, it looks like you want to say something and add something to that.

00:11:40:12 - 00:11:58:04
Patricia Grabarek
No, I completely agree. I think there's just such an easy, kind of way to silo workplace one's own thing, which is why I think a lot of leaders put it on. You know, HR is plate, you know, the total rewards team's plate, because that's not my job. My job is to meet my goals, meet my results, make sure my team is doing they need to be doing.

00:11:58:09 - 00:12:18:03
Patricia Grabarek
But those two things really shouldn't be separated because your team is not going to do well. They're not going to do what they need to do. They're not going to have the results that you're hoping to drive if they're unwell. Right. If you're the imagine being exhausted or sick or, you know, completely at the very edge of burnout, when you're at work, you're not doing a good job.

00:12:18:05 - 00:12:25:01
Patricia Grabarek
So if you want your team to meet the results that you're going for, you need them to be doing well as well.

00:12:25:03 - 00:12:51:07
Kevin Eikenberry
If that's what any of us want to do our best work, we have to be at our best. Like, it's really as straightforward as that, right? And, and and so I think that's a really useful thing for us to think about. There was a there was I was thinking a second ago, as you guys were talking about one of the stories in the book, which I think everyone can relate to, is organization realizes we've got some workplace wellness kinds of challenges.

00:12:51:10 - 00:13:30:13
Kevin Eikenberry
And so they, create or purchase, it doesn't matter. A workshop a and hey, in this case, a virtual, learning, session for people to take action on and learn from so they can have better workplace wellness. And people are overworked. And then they said, well, you have to take this four hour session, which just adds more to the I mean, I'm reading it and I'm thinking every person that reads this or nearly every person that reads this is going to have either a nervous laugh or a sort of sideways glance, because they've experienced some version of that, and it's just a symptom of what you said.

00:13:30:13 - 00:14:00:22
Kevin Eikenberry
Katina, about why the bolt on and on other thing probably isn't the whole solution. So so Patricia, earlier you use the word generator. And you say that the leader, the both of you say that the leaders who are doing the stuff that Katina was just mentioning, you all call generators. So Patricia, so why that word? How does that different than being a leader?

00:14:01:01 - 00:14:03:22
Kevin Eikenberry
What do we need to be focusing on there to be a generator?

00:14:04:00 - 00:14:26:22
Patricia Grabarek
Great question. And generators. It's a term that we coined for these folks that are building those thriving environments. Why we use the word generators is because they're really generating energy. They're generating that thriving. They're creating a culture in an environment where people can do their best work and feel, you know, engaged, excited, you know, great in their job, but also, again, being able to live that life outside of it.

00:14:26:22 - 00:14:55:01
Patricia Grabarek
So they're generating all this positivity, this energy within their teams. And what makes them unique from just kind of leaders generally is they are actively focusing on a few key things that we talked through in the book on how to create those cultures. They're focusing on building trust with their teams. They're focusing on being authentic and vulnerable and sharing their challenges and struggles to create an environment that makes it safe for other people to speak up and talk to them about their challenges so you can work through it together.

00:14:55:03 - 00:15:19:20
Patricia Grabarek
They will individualize the way they support people right? So what one person needs to meet their, you know, work life balance ideals in their head is going to be very different than somebody else on the team. And being able to get to know folks is so critical to do that. And because they're building that trust in that vulnerability and that authenticity, they're able to really create solutions that are helpful for each person.

00:15:19:22 - 00:15:39:22
Patricia Grabarek
They're creating a team where they're people are showing gratitude and positivity towards each other. They're helping each other out. So there's a lot of behaviors that we talk through that creates this environment that's more energizing, than the opposite. We actually also use the word extinguisher for kind of the opposite person. Again, extinguisher because now they're extinguishing energy, right?

00:15:39:22 - 00:15:59:00
Patricia Grabarek
They're kind of reducing the thriving on their team. Some people are doing that intentionally. Some people are not. And it's sometimes it's just a busy environment and they don't take that time to get to know people. They don't take that time to really support individuals on the team. They're just hyperfocus on results. And they're kind of, you know, potentially bringing toxicity to the team.

00:15:59:00 - 00:16:05:04
Patricia Grabarek
They're doing all the opposite behaviors, where they are not creating a thriving environment. They're extinguishing people's engagement.

00:16:05:06 - 00:16:30:19
Kevin Eikenberry
So, one of the things that you said, like, three times in that description was you use the word authentic or authenticity. And, you know, I've been in this business a long time and I don't know when I was your ages. That sounds sort of strange, but but a long time ago, when you guys, a long time ago, that phrase didn't get used much.

00:16:30:21 - 00:16:50:08
Kevin Eikenberry
And now we use that phrase or that idea. Authentic authenticity. A lot. And, and I, I think sometimes that we throw it around and everyone sort of nods and shakes their head, and yet in the back of their head, like, I don't really know what that means or does that mean I have to tell people like, do I have to be a 100% open book?

00:16:50:11 - 00:17:14:17
Kevin Eikenberry
Like so Katina, tell us a little bit like help us all, operation allies that like what is being authentic and what isn't it being because I think that one of the reasons people don't where to go there is they don't really know really what it means to them personally on an actual application basis.

00:17:14:19 - 00:17:35:04
Katina Sawyer
Yeah, I think that's a really great point. And I think that's true of a lot of the, you know, terms that we use throughout the book, even workplace wellness. That's why we set out like these are kind of what we call like Bleu words. They are in the vernacular, but they have these very vague and fuzzy meanings. And so two people can be talking about the same thing, but they're actually talking about different things because they're not defined.

00:17:35:04 - 00:17:39:06
Katina Sawyer
Right. So, I think this is a great question. And we always.

00:17:39:06 - 00:17:47:19
Kevin Eikenberry
My big takeaway everybody. Yeah, we do our words in every episode. I always find there's one thing I'm never gonna forget.

00:17:47:21 - 00:17:48:08
Katina Sawyer
Yeah.

00:17:48:12 - 00:17:50:12
Kevin Eikenberry
One. Yeah I just got Cadena.

00:17:50:17 - 00:17:52:06
Patricia Grabarek
Yeah.

00:17:52:08 - 00:17:54:15
Kevin Eikenberry
Exactly. Exactly what they are.

00:17:54:17 - 00:18:17:19
Katina Sawyer
Yeah, yeah. And I think authenticity is one of those. Right. And so what we want to stress is that we are talking about being authentic within professional bounds. Right. So there is always going to be some difference between how you are with your spouse at home or your friends and how you are in the workplace. Right? That's, just a professional bounds, conversation.

00:18:17:19 - 00:18:40:10
Katina Sawyer
However, the core parts of who you are, your personality, the way that you approach interpersonal relationships, things of that nature, those sorts of things are things that are core to you and the way that you operate in the world. So if you feel like you're having to, like, bend and mold and shape yourself into something that you're not or something that doesn't feel good to you, right in the workplace, that's probably a sign that you're being inauthentic.

00:18:40:10 - 00:19:09:04
Katina Sawyer
So I'll give a more concrete example. So we often see leaders, and I saw a lot of these leaders coming up, in my career as well. Very kind of stoic, competitive, hardcore, more harsh, type of leadership style. And let's say you've been exposed to those leaders for a long time. And as you grow in your leadership style, you're feeling like, you know, for me, what I really like is to sit down and build relationships or before I, like, lay out a consequence.

00:19:09:04 - 00:19:33:01
Katina Sawyer
I like to ask a lot of questions about why this problem is happening, or why this person is having a performance issue and creating an environment for conversation and things of that nature. Right? But that's not what I've seen people do. So it seems like that's not what I'm supposed to do. Instead of continuing to just like, mold yourself into this other thing, really thinking about, well, what makes me unique and different is actually a strength and maybe complementary to what other people are doing, at the organizational level.

00:19:33:01 - 00:19:51:11
Katina Sawyer
Right? So we all have different strengths that we bring to the table. And sometimes people think they have to be clones of other leaders they've seen, as opposed to acting in a way that's actually who they are. Right. And so I think from an authenticity perspective, it doesn't have to be 100% authentic, the same exact way that you would be with your best friend when you're hanging out.

00:19:51:13 - 00:20:08:04
Katina Sawyer
But if you feel like you're taking core parts of yourself and changing them to fit a particular mold and that's not feeling good to you, then that might be a sign that you need to share some more. And in the book, we give some tips about, starting small in authenticity so it doesn't need to be, you know, from 0 to 100.

00:20:08:08 - 00:20:26:15
Katina Sawyer
But what are things that your family or friends would be surprised that people at work don't know about you, right. That's like an interesting question, I think, to ask. And in the book, we share some stories about people who were extremely passionate about art and painting, for example. And no one in their workplace had any idea that they had that interest.

00:20:26:17 - 00:20:37:00
Katina Sawyer
And so even sharing something like that can give people a little window into who you are, and then they're willing to give you a little window into who they are to. And that helps to build those stronger, more trusting relationships.

00:20:37:03 - 00:21:01:05
Kevin Eikenberry
Yeah, I absolutely, 100% agree. I love that, one of the one of the phrases that you introduce, I believe it's your phrase, I'm attributing it as your phrase is the idea of leaders or generators needing to be boundary bouncers. And we're not talking about a bouncing ball. We're talking about that big guy. Outside of the bar.

00:21:01:07 - 00:21:15:20
Kevin Eikenberry
So. So, Patricia, what do you. What do you guys mean? So, first of all, correct me if I'm wrong, but this your phrase, I think, and secondly, second of all, then what do you mean by why do we what is a boundary bouncer and why do we need to be one?

00:21:15:22 - 00:21:41:22
Patricia Grabarek
Yes, definitely. Our phrase, clearly we like to go to bars and stuff. We drink wine. Right. So, so there's a theme, but, for us, it was the visual, right? As a generator, you take this role as a boundary bouncer where you are not letting things past your employee's boundaries and also your own boundaries. Right? You let your employees set boundaries, like, let's say it, every Tuesday.

00:21:41:22 - 00:22:03:00
Patricia Grabarek
You have to leave work at 430 because you're coaching your kids like baseball team, right? That is a strict boundary for you. And what is your leader do as a boundary bouncer bouncer. They are stopping anything from coming in you. Those VIP ropes during that time period, right? A meeting is scheduled. They will say something. Hey, we have to do it earlier.

00:22:03:02 - 00:22:26:09
Patricia Grabarek
They'll take it if they need to, if something needs to be taken or they'll, you know, ask somebody else in the team to help and support. They're going to do the things to try to remove those potential, non VIP guests from getting in past your boundaries and kind of ruining the balance that you're trying to achieve. They also kind of they function this way not only for themselves, but for their teammates or for themselves.

00:22:26:09 - 00:22:43:20
Patricia Grabarek
It's also really important piece because you need to show that you are doing this for yourself. So people feel like it's okay to actually have boundaries. So as a leader, going back to authenticity, you need to be authentic about what kind of boundaries are important to you so that your team then also can help you in this endeavor.

00:22:43:22 - 00:23:00:12
Patricia Grabarek
And make sure that your boundaries are supported so that you can kind of all create a culture where this is a norm and it's okay to say, hey, I have to step out at this time, I have to do this thing, and your leader will jump in and kind of make sure other leaders, other people are not trying to take over that boundary.

00:23:00:14 - 00:23:22:21
Kevin Eikenberry
I don't know how we can have a real successful conversation about work life balance. Without talking about boundaries. Right? And I love that, that you made this such. It's like a chapter in the book to me. It's one of the highlights. And really, tangible, important things that we can, we can do to to lead for wellness, to use the title of the book.

00:23:22:22 - 00:23:44:19
Kevin Eikenberry
I was, as you were saying, this thing about, I got to leave by 430. It took me back to something from in my life long ago. I had, clients, in Houston. And at the time, all these folks, or, van pools and the van pools left at 415. Like, the van pulls left at 415 and had two observations.

00:23:44:22 - 00:23:49:00
Kevin Eikenberry
I noticed that the meetings ended by 415. Shocking.

00:23:49:02 - 00:23:50:00
Patricia Grabarek
Yes. No.

00:23:50:01 - 00:23:52:00
Kevin Eikenberry
We still got the work done.

00:23:52:02 - 00:23:52:18
Patricia Grabarek


00:23:52:20 - 00:24:15:20
Kevin Eikenberry
Exactly like and that was a that was an actual boundary. And yet and, and I reflect on it often with the client to say, listen, you know, why are your meetings that you start at 330 better than the ones you start a different times a day because you make sure you finish by 415. Right. Having a clear boundary makes a big difference.

00:24:15:21 - 00:24:30:11
Kevin Eikenberry
You use Catena you use the word individualized. A few minutes ago there's another section in the book about you sort of, at least I take it as you basing it on. Oh, a cat sighting.

00:24:30:13 - 00:24:33:23
Patricia Grabarek
That's what happens in your life, right.

00:24:34:01 - 00:25:01:16
Kevin Eikenberry
That, that you at least based some of this thought on the work of Carl Rogers. And so if you want to hinder that, you can. But the idea of person centered planning, it's this idea of, I'm leading each of my folks individually, not just to some sort of norm. So do you want to talk a little bit about where that comes from and how and mostly how that relates to this idea of us creating a, a workplace where everyone thrives?

00:25:01:18 - 00:25:26:18
Katina Sawyer
Yeah. So it's actually kind of interesting because we sort of worked backwards into the Aryan approach. We were trying to figure out in our data, you know, we kept hearing this over and over again that leaders really took time to get to know their team members as individuals, not just in terms of their talents and skills, which they also wanted to know about and how they wanted to develop further from a work and, and, you know, job related perspective.

00:25:26:18 - 00:25:52:07
Katina Sawyer
But they also really wanted to know, like, what makes them tick, what motivates them, what do they have going on outside of their lives that's important to them? What are their non-negotiables? What are their values? They wanted to know them as people and take time to get to know them as people. And we kept hearing this over and over again, and that leaders were taking dedicated time to actually sit down with their team members and have conversations that were not work related, but were more related to who they were as human beings.

00:25:52:07 - 00:26:08:17
Katina Sawyer
I actually had a conversation yesterday with a very, close, friend and colleague of mine who, onboarded in an organization and part of the onboarding process was that they sat down with her and asked her about her values and asked her about what was important to her outside of work and what are things that she didn't want to compromise.

00:26:08:17 - 00:26:36:17
Katina Sawyer
And she was so impressed and so excited and so happy, that that was part of her onboarding process. And this is the sort of thing we kept hearing. Right. That this was really important. So when we were thinking about how to frame this and whether or not this had been talked about in other places, we realized that this is actually a common methodology that's used in other settings where people are forming individualized plans to help people get to the core of who they are, and to create life plans that actually align with who they are at their center.

00:26:36:17 - 00:27:01:01
Katina Sawyer
But we can do that at work, too, and that's where we got the person centered planning, idea from and backing into this sharing approach was that that's really what these leaders are doing. They're doing something that's almost therapeutic for their team and helping them to move forward and make plans that don't just take into account what they can do from a work perspective, but what they want to do and whether it aligns with the path that they want to be on in a more holistic sense.

00:27:01:04 - 00:27:21:00
Kevin Eikenberry
Yeah. So I just want to make an observation for everyone who's listening. If you were listening to what Katina was just saying, I think it's a really important point. Some of you listening are saying, I want to have those individualized conversations. I want to get to know my folks. That's naturally what I do. But we have work to do.

00:27:21:02 - 00:27:46:01
Kevin Eikenberry
And some of you are saying, listen, I don't have time to do that. Like, that's not that. This is business. Like, that's not. Yeah, that's nice, but only if we if we get lucky, like, and my point to all of you is whichever sort of where your, your mind, like where you're natural inclinations are about this, is that what Katina and Patricia are telling you is it's part of the job.

00:27:46:02 - 00:28:08:15
Kevin Eikenberry
It's not a nice to have. It's not a if you have a chance to. And even though it may end up being therapeutic, you don't have to have stated Holiday Inn Express last night to do it. The point is that it's part of the job and and generators. I think I'm safe in saying and the generators that you're describing see it as part.

00:28:08:17 - 00:28:32:18
Katina Sawyer
And I'll add one more thing to that is that it actually makes your job easier and helps you solve work related problems better. So there's a story in the book where, person was really struggling in their performance. And, someone who we interviewed was witnessing this person really struggling in their performance. And the leader actually took time to figure out what was going on with this person.

00:28:32:18 - 00:29:01:14
Katina Sawyer
And because they had this extra knowledge, it's a mirror of this person's personal life. Knew that this person was going through a really terrible breakup, and so recognize that this was a period of time where this person was struggling with something outside of work that might have been impacting their performance inside of work, and could have made a very rash decision to let this person go or, decide or judge this person and sort of label them as a low performer, but instead they understood the more complex picture of what was going on with this person, help them to get through that time period.

00:29:01:14 - 00:29:08:19
Katina Sawyer
And they became a stellar like, high potential, high performer person once they got through this rough patch.

00:29:08:21 - 00:29:28:01
Kevin Eikenberry
It exhibiting and offering grace to people contextually is not the same as excusing something for the, it's acknowledging the individual nature of the situation. Right? I think it's 100% right. Patricia, it looks like you want to say something. And after you do that, I'm going to I'm going to roll us into some final thinking.

00:29:28:03 - 00:29:59:19
Patricia Grabarek
Now, I just I completely agree with everything Catena said in the story that she was sharing. I think it's an important note to that. As you get to know all of your employees and you create like a teen culture around this, that also helps you have a group of people that are supporting each other. So when this person is going through that really bad breakup or they're sick or they're whatever, other people are willing to step in and step up because they are now part of this community that is willing to help, and that will help you reach those goals and help kind of compensate for some of those potential performance issues or challenges as

00:29:59:19 - 00:30:19:18
Patricia Grabarek
people are going through difficult things. And then, you know, if that person, the person that was helping now goes through something difficult, they have support too. So it kind of creates this balance on the team where you're getting to those broader goals together and you don't have to feel like one person having a hard time is going to derail everything.

00:30:19:18 - 00:30:22:23
Patricia Grabarek
You can all step up and help each other out.

00:30:23:01 - 00:30:45:09
Kevin Eikenberry
Patricia has just described the subtitle of the book, A Team Culture Where Everyone Thrives, which is a good chance for me to segue into some to the last segment of our conversation. And so I'm going to shift us out of the work and your work just a little bit. And I'll start with you, Katina. Like, what do you do for fun?

00:30:45:11 - 00:31:03:11
Katina Sawyer
That's a very good question. So I think travel is probably one of my favorite things. I just got back from a long, really nice, trip that was like, part work and part vacation in Europe. So I love seeing new places, doing new things. I also feel like I like to find, like, hidden gems of places.

00:31:03:11 - 00:31:29:04
Katina Sawyer
So, like, what's like the, like, cool spot? Like, what's the cool museum? What's the cool restaurant? What's the cool little coffee shop like? I like to kind of do a lot of research and plan, in that direction. And then also I just like to sit outside with friends and have conversations. I like socializing a lot. I'm a very social person, so I think like hanging out with friends and having conversations is also something that really makes me happy.

00:31:29:06 - 00:31:31:07
Kevin Eikenberry
Patricia, what do you do for fun?

00:31:31:09 - 00:31:51:18
Patricia Grabarek
My goodness, we're going to sound like twins. I the travel thing is definitely mine as well. I love traveling and I love planning the travel, just like Katina said, doing all the research, figuring out all the little nooks and crannies of places to go and, and the food for each region that I'm going to. So I really spend a lot of time and understanding kind of the food culture, too.

00:31:51:20 - 00:31:56:16
Patricia Grabarek
I love travel. I could if I could just travel all the time, that would be my favorite thing.

00:31:56:18 - 00:32:00:21
Katina Sawyer
We're good travel buddies because we liked, we like the same stuff, so that's good.

00:32:00:21 - 00:32:25:04
Patricia Grabarek
Yeah, yeah, works out perfectly. Other than that, I mean, I have a house full of animals, I love pets, I love my I have a dog, two cats. As we saw one of them, they, so spending time with them, I've also been really into Pilates lately. That's been the nice. I love that because when you're on a reformer, you can't really be doing work or thinking about work because you're thinking about what you're doing in that moment.

00:32:25:09 - 00:32:32:11
Patricia Grabarek
It's like being in a class setting for a physical activity, I think is very helpful for me. And I really enjoy that.

00:32:32:13 - 00:32:37:21
Kevin Eikenberry
So, Patricia, while you're talking, the one thing I knew I was going to ask you is, what are you reading?

00:32:37:23 - 00:33:01:06
Patricia Grabarek
So I it's been taking me a while because I've been quite busy, but I've been reading Outraged by Kurt Gray. That is a really interesting book that's all about, like, how to find common ground with people that maybe have different, perspectives on, you know, like how, for example, in, like a political setting, you may have the same general morals as like your parents, but you're politically different, right?

00:33:01:06 - 00:33:08:13
Patricia Grabarek
So how do we get through that? How do we understand that better? That's that's what the book's about it and been enjoying it as I have time.

00:33:08:15 - 00:33:10:05
Kevin Eikenberry
Katina, what about you? What are you reading?

00:33:10:07 - 00:33:35:08
Katina Sawyer
Yeah, I've actually been reading a lot of journal articles and books on trauma informed contexts. For helping to support healing for people who have experienced really extreme adverse life events. I'm currently writing a paper on that topic and, very heavily immersed in that and trying to understand how we can better connect, trauma and trauma related conversations.

00:33:35:08 - 00:33:49:08
Katina Sawyer
And there's a great book that's going to be forthcoming by Jane Chen. That's, going to be great on that topic. And how can we really address trauma and traumatizing experiences that people have had in their past, both at work and in society at large?

00:33:49:10 - 00:34:04:20
Kevin Eikenberry
So before we go, one of you, you can decide. I mean, you built this company together called worker being, like, where where can we learn more about that? Where do you want to point people related to the book, etc.? One of you tell us a little bit about that, how we can connect with you guys.

00:34:04:21 - 00:34:30:23
Patricia Grabarek
Sure. Yeah. Worker Inc.com is a great place to start. You'll get all the details about us if you go to work being.com/book, you'll find links to all the different places you can find our book, Amazon, Barnes Noble, etc.. Yes, our beautiful cover, highly designed. And you can always email us as well if you have questions or you want to talk about the book or you're interested in bringing us in, it's contact at work or being.com.

00:34:31:01 - 00:34:34:13
Patricia Grabarek
And we're both pretty active on LinkedIn, so find us there to.

00:34:34:15 - 00:34:57:09
Kevin Eikenberry
We will have the links to the books and to work are being.com in the show notes. But if you're just listening and you're not going to go to the show notes, it's work. Are are being B.E. Inc.com okay are being.com worker being.com. So before I say goodbye to my guests, I've got a question for all of you.

00:34:57:15 - 00:35:19:16
Kevin Eikenberry
It's a question I ask you every single episode. It's a it's an incredibly important question because if you don't answer this question, the value that you get from this time that you've just invested is far less. So the question is, now what? What action will you take as a result of what you've learned? You've got new ideas, insights, perspectives.

00:35:19:18 - 00:35:43:23
Kevin Eikenberry
What are you going to do? What can you do today to become more of a generator, for example? Or maybe the thing you're going to do is you're going to order a copy of the book. But fundamentally, what are the ideas that you got here that you will turn from idea to implementation? Because until you do that, the value of the time we just spent while entertaining, is definitely limited.

00:35:44:04 - 00:35:54:14
Kevin Eikenberry
So, thank both of you for being here. It was a pleasure to have you. Since I read the book, I've been looking forward to our conversation and it didn't disappoint. Thanks so much for being here.

00:35:54:16 - 00:35:56:09
Patricia Grabarek
Thank you so much.

00:35:56:11 - 00:36:11:03
Kevin Eikenberry
And so everybody, if you if it didn't disappoint you, I hope you'll tell somebody else about it. But make sure whatever you do, make sure that you are subscribed wherever you're watching or listening so you don't miss any future episodes of the Remarkable Leadership Podcast. Thanks, everybody.