The Remarkable Leadership Podcast

00:00:08:10 - 00:00:38:23
Kevin Eikenberry
The best leaders know how to bring out the best in themselves, their team members and their teams collectively. That goal is the focus of our conversation today. We'll talk about how to support co-creation and collaboration, and where we need to start to make all those good things happen. Welcome to another episode of the Remarkable Leadership Podcast, where we are helping leaders grow personally and professionally to lead more effectively and make a bigger difference for their teams, organizations and the world.

00:00:39:00 - 00:01:05:02
Kevin Eikenberry
If you are listening to this podcast in the future, you could join us live because all of these episodes are live streamed and on your favorite social media channels. So to find out when those are happening and then get involved, you can join either our Facebook or LinkedIn groups. to learn all about that, you can go to remarkable podcast.com/facebook or remarkable podcast.com/linked In.

00:01:05:04 - 00:01:30:08
Kevin Eikenberry
Do that and you can be clued in and join us in the future. Today's episode is brought to you by our remarkable master Classes pick from 13 important leadership in life skills to help you become a more effective, productive, and confident leader while overcoming some of the toughest challenges that we face as leaders. Learn more and sign up at Remarkable Master class.com.

00:01:30:10 - 00:01:57:09
Kevin Eikenberry
And with that, it's time for me to bring in my guest. She is here and let me introduce her to you. Her name is Lisa Daniels. She is the founder and executive director of Human Edge. is a senior executive talent and leadership consultant and coach. She focuses on developing mindful and purpose driven leaders, unlocking their full leadership potential in that we share commonality.

00:01:57:10 - 00:02:23:19
Kevin Eikenberry
Lisa. It holds a master's degree in organizational development and Human resource management from New York University, and a bachelor's degree in interdisciplinary public policy and Administration. The concentrate on international relations from the University of New York at Buffalo. She's a certified executive coach and author of Human Edge Advantage Mastering the Art of Being All In. She resides in Basel, Switzerland, where she is coming from.

00:02:24:00 - 00:02:28:12
Kevin Eikenberry
joining us today. And, Lisa, it's a pleasure to have you. Thanks for being here.

00:02:28:14 - 00:02:30:21
Lisa Danels
You as well, Kevin. My pleasure.

00:02:30:23 - 00:02:52:05
Kevin Eikenberry
So, I often like to ask this question when I start. Lisa, like when you were ten years old, you did not expect you were writing books about human potential. Collaboration and co-creation, etc.. So very quickly give us a high arc of the journey that leads you to doing this kind of work.

00:02:52:07 - 00:03:10:12
Lisa Danels
Yeah, probably not ten, but not too far after that. So I was, I was very fortunate, in high school, although I was always more geared towards science and math, that was kind of where I excelled in, in high school. but in high school, I was part of a club called Future Business Leaders of America.

00:03:10:14 - 00:03:30:12
Lisa Danels
And, I was a state officer for that club. So I was I did get exposed to American Management Association. We went away for seven days of leadership training. So I had this even before I went to university, and I kind of caught the bug, but I kind of but I was always in the space of, oh, you know, I want to I want to, study.

00:03:30:12 - 00:03:47:13
Lisa Danels
I want to do research and cancer research because I saw my aunt die. Die of cancer. So, so I went off. When I went off to university, I actually ended up going into the sciences and probably in the middle of my junior year, I realized this is probably not the right pathway for me. And then I made the shift.

00:03:47:15 - 00:04:06:11
Lisa Danels
So, and then where I really fell in love, in the field is as part of my internship. And this speaks to one of the things in the book which is about intuition is, I walked into at university in Buffalo. They didn't really hold your hand. It was kind of like a dog eat dog world. Figure it out on your own.

00:04:06:13 - 00:04:24:10
Lisa Danels
And, I had to do an internship, so they gave me a big binder, and they're like, pick out the internship you want. Not. What do you want to do? Nobody had a conversation with me. So I went through the binder and page by page. And then I got to there was an internship which was in the training department, within the university.

00:04:24:14 - 00:04:40:01
Lisa Danels
And I said, that's what I want. And then that's how I found my pathway. So then, yeah. So it's really so I was very I'm one of the fortunate ones that found my pathway quite early on in my career. And then when, when I graduated, I said, well, most important, let me get into a good company.

00:04:40:01 - 00:05:06:00
Lisa Danels
So I went to work at American Express. And then very shortly after I landed at American Express, I asked people, around. I asked around to say, what is the right, degree? Do I go for an MBA or do I go for a masters? And, that's where I landed in. And so within six months of working, I started going back at night, to, for my master's degree in organizational development and resource management.

00:05:06:02 - 00:05:25:04
Lisa Danels
And then I really fell in. And then it kind of brought me back to the the high school experience about, about, you know, the, the leadership development. But I will tell you, because I think this is important about intuition is I remember my mom when I used to get home from school, she would always she would be on the phone talking to her friend.

00:05:25:06 - 00:05:44:12
Lisa Danels
And one day I was sitting there was like a stair below into the kitchen. And one day she hung up the phone and I looked at her and I go, mom, one day I'm going to write a bestselling book. I don't know where it came from, I really don't, but I just remember that moment very early on in my, in my in my, in my it was high school time that I said that to her.

00:05:44:17 - 00:06:03:23
Kevin Eikenberry
You go, oh, we're going to come back to intuition and I want to move on. Actually, what you've just said, it relates to, I think the first big point in the book, it's actually in the introduction. And so I just want, you to talk about this and how it relates to the book. the idea is that everything is interconnect.

00:06:04:04 - 00:06:08:05
Kevin Eikenberry
And really the story you just said had a bunch of interconnections as well.

00:06:08:05 - 00:06:09:07
Lisa Danels
Interconnections. Yeah.

00:06:09:09 - 00:06:16:21
Kevin Eikenberry
Yeah. So so tell me what you mean, or give me an example of what you mean when you say that everything is interconnected.

00:06:16:23 - 00:06:39:23
Lisa Danels
So there's, there's it happens on two levels. So let me speak to the organizational level. And then I'll get to more of what I would call the mystical level. So when you get to the organizational level, when I studied organizational development, one of the things that was quite important is that the leaders that were most powerful and the most and the ones and the one and the OG practitioners that were most impactful, understood.

00:06:40:01 - 00:06:59:17
Lisa Danels
What does it mean to work in a system that if you make one decision here, what is the ramification on the system on the other part? And a lot of leaders don't get that because what they do is they make one, they make one decision and it has a negative impact on other parts of the system. So that's kind of on the I would say the the more the mundane or the organizational level.

00:06:59:19 - 00:07:38:01
Lisa Danels
But when I really talk about it in the book, when I talk about everything's connected, I'm really talking about what I would call the entanglement theory. When you get into physics, when you talk about how the world, how we are interconnected on an energetic level, that's what I'm really talking about when I say everything is interconnected. So they've shown studies like the one that I love the most is that, a good example of this is that when a woman is pregnant with a child, that when the cells are going back between the umbilical cord, between the mother and the and the child, that, the, the baby gives stem cells to help the

00:07:38:01 - 00:08:00:15
Lisa Danels
mother heal. And then the mother is giving, cells to the child. With that experience, the child and the mother are connected intuitively the rest of their life because the cells have been entangled with each other and that's why they say mothers have this intuition about their children. There's a reason for it. It's actually on a, a, scientific level, a.

00:08:00:15 - 00:08:01:22
Kevin Eikenberry
Cellular level.

00:08:01:22 - 00:08:21:14
Lisa Danels
Is cellular. Thank you. Cellular level. So that's what I mean by interconnected. And if we really understand that we are all interconnected, just think, when you walk into a room and someone is excited and has energy, you can pick it up. If you walk into a room and someone's angry and upset, you can pick that up. Why? Because we're interconnected.

00:08:21:16 - 00:08:28:05
Lisa Danels
We are connected on an energetic level, in the universe. And if you like The matrix, it's a good way of thinking about it.

00:08:28:07 - 00:08:50:16
Kevin Eikenberry
There you go. so the subtitle of the book, which is almost always everybody, where you really get it in a well done book title. It's the subtitle that ultimately. Yes. mastering the Art of Being All in. And so when I think about this idea of being interconnected, then All In seems to make a whole lot more sense.

00:08:50:18 - 00:09:12:19
Kevin Eikenberry
I told you before we started, and I wanted to spend a just a little time on your overall framework, and then I'm just going to dip in and we're gonna talk about a few of these things and find some of these connections as we go. but just tell us very briefly, there's sort of a four step framework that you have that relates to your idea of how do we get people really, truly, all in all, what do you mean by that?

00:09:13:00 - 00:09:14:07
Kevin Eikenberry
And what is that framework?

00:09:14:12 - 00:09:37:12
Lisa Danels
Yeah. And I think All in is not all in at any cost because people are working really hard, really, intensely. But there at the end of the year, they're crawling to the finish line. That's not what I mean by all in, I mean about how do people balance their hearts and minds and souls as they're working. So in order to get people all in, there are a couple of key things that need to happen.

00:09:37:13 - 00:09:58:13
Lisa Danels
The first thing that needs to happen is there needs to be this integration of the head, heart and gut which allows us more capacity. So if I just if I just step into a situation where I use my mental ability, right. If somebody challenging at work comes up to me with something emotional, then I'm not going to be able to really be able to navigate it well.

00:09:58:15 - 00:10:16:03
Lisa Danels
Right? So if I can bring in my heart energy and then at the same time, if I really I can understand and, be able to connect with them emotionally. But I might not be able to solve the problem that's at hand. But then if I bring in the, the intuition right now, I'm have all three qualities at the same time.

00:10:16:08 - 00:10:38:19
Lisa Danels
And this gives me expanded capacity. So that's the that's really what we talk about at the center of the model. And what I see a lot of leaders doing with a lot of the executive coaching I do I see leaders bifurcate. They're in the mind, they're in the heart, they're in the mind, they're in the heart. Gut is a whole nother level because gut is not really something that people feel comfortable bringing in.

00:10:38:19 - 00:10:55:18
Lisa Danels
Yet we don't talk about it as openly in the cultures in business. But when I did the research on the book and you look at all the fantastic and greatest leaders of the world, they all say intuition is one of the most important things that made them successful. So that's at the center. You wanted to say something? Go ahead.

00:10:55:18 - 00:10:56:15
Lisa Danels
Kevin. No, I.

00:10:56:15 - 00:11:00:23
Kevin Eikenberry
I want to say a little bit more about I want to talk a little bit more about intuition, but I'd like just give us the. Okay.

00:11:01:01 - 00:11:02:03
Lisa Danels
And we'll dive in.

00:11:02:03 - 00:11:04:02
Kevin Eikenberry
Framework real quick. Then we'll dive in a little bit.

00:11:04:03 - 00:11:25:21
Lisa Danels
Then the next thing that if we really want to get people all in, we need to know ourselves as leaders and as and as individual contributors are employee employees. And the reason being is I can't I can't co-create or facilitate with somebody else until I know my own strengths. I need to know what's in my heart. I need to know how I feel, how I show up right.

00:11:26:01 - 00:11:57:15
Lisa Danels
So one of the big triggers there is this notion around can I call it connecting to self? So this is about exploring and integrating every aspect of yourself to achieve self-mastery. The key one key element here is about your ability to believe that you have personal agency, that you can shape your future. Once you have that sense of personal power, and you do believe that you can master your mind, because a lot of our minds are very busy and we our minds get in our way of being successful and our emotions.

00:11:57:15 - 00:12:24:10
Lisa Danels
So once we have those ingredients, then I can then connect with somebody else on a really deep level, because if my my stuff is getting in the way, my baggage and my reactive behavior, I can't authentically connect, right? And the next one is about connecting to others. So think about when we can. We have our personal power, then the connecting to others kind of the code word here is shared power.

00:12:24:12 - 00:12:46:20
Lisa Danels
I know I have something to offer, you have something to offer, and therefore we can connect to each other in a meaningful way, where we can engage them and create a deep sense of belonging. And then when we have those two pieces in place, right then we can create a space of co-creation. And co-creation is where we use the collective genius of everybody.

00:12:46:23 - 00:13:04:13
Lisa Danels
So the one way I like to think about it is you don't bring a cathedral, right? If you have a solution, you bring a brick and then I bring a brick and you bring a brick, and next thing you know, we don't even know what the solution could be because it's so magical. Because we all bring a piece.

00:13:04:15 - 00:13:26:13
Lisa Danels
Because if I just bring a cathedral, right? What can you change? It doesn't allow you to be all in, because you can only change the maybe the pews or the or the windows. But if you're if we're co-creating together like Minecraft in a way, right, then we can build something that's beautiful. As long as we hold the same vision, right?

00:13:26:14 - 00:13:30:01
Lisa Danels
Because we need to have a collective vision in order to do that.

00:13:30:03 - 00:13:37:09
Kevin Eikenberry
Yeah. We can't. We can co-create, but we don't know where we're headed. if we don't, if we don't know what we gotta know where we're headed.

00:13:37:11 - 00:13:53:14
Lisa Danels
And this is a big. And this is a big difference for leaders now. Right? Because beforehand they were so used to about setting the vision and telling people what to do and where to go. Right. And now it's like we're co-creating the vision together. But the leaders still need to create the frame, which is the playground and where people can play.

00:13:53:14 - 00:13:59:05
Lisa Danels
And then you let the team fill it in. So as leaders, you don't have to work as hard.

00:13:59:07 - 00:14:00:20
Kevin Eikenberry
We have to work differently and you have.

00:14:00:20 - 00:14:03:19
Lisa Danels
To work differently, but you don't have to work as hard. You have to.

00:14:03:19 - 00:14:06:16
Kevin Eikenberry
Work with more uncertainty and a lot of other things. I would.

00:14:06:17 - 00:14:07:14
Lisa Danels
Say.

00:14:07:16 - 00:14:15:14
Kevin Eikenberry
You've said quite a bit about it already. but I really want to talk a little bit more about the role of intuition.

00:14:15:16 - 00:14:32:10
Lisa Danels
but before you go to just can I just add one thing? So one of the most important things about the model is then there's a little bit of a rope outside the model. And this is what we talk about. Our masks. So these are childhood coping mechanisms that we carry. And if we don't become aware of them and we don't manage them, we can't take them away.

00:14:32:10 - 00:14:51:19
Lisa Danels
Because I can't take away my childhood experiences, that maybe I didn't get my needs met and I can't take away them from you, but I can know how to work with them. So during times of stress, they don't show up or they limit the ability. So that's that's really encompassing the entire model. So now you want to dive into intuition a bit more.

00:14:51:21 - 00:15:25:02
Kevin Eikenberry
Yeah, I want to talk a little bit more about intuition because as you said, it's sometimes people ignore it, deny it or they use it but don't want to admit that they use it. so I'd really like to know a little bit more about what would you say if someone sort of knows their intuition, tells them that they should pay attention what they really don't, or they don't feel like they're supposed to, like, help you help people feel more comfortable and confident.

00:15:25:04 - 00:15:25:18
Lisa Danels
In using.

00:15:25:18 - 00:15:27:07
Kevin Eikenberry
Listening to their intuition.

00:15:27:13 - 00:15:44:00
Lisa Danels
Yeah. So I think one of the things I state in the book and, and I really stand by this because it gets to that first question you asked me. Kevin, by what do you mean by everything is interconnected, right? So to me, your intuition is your highest form of intelligence. And the reason it's your highest form of intelligence.

00:15:44:00 - 00:16:05:20
Lisa Danels
Because if you go with we're all connected, it means you can tap into anything that is in the universe any knowledge, wisdom, anything that is created, anything that's not created, right. Everything that, in essence is there. So if we understand that, then instead of just using a hammer right to for as a tool, we have this amazing tool to tap into.

00:16:05:22 - 00:16:31:02
Lisa Danels
So if we want to be able to use our intuition, one is we need to cultivate it. It's just like go into the gym, right? Some of us have it, have it more pronounced, and others because we've listened to it. We've cultivated, one way that I think if you think about where people can pay attention to is the gut instinct is the one that is most prominent, which is, oh, something doesn't feel right.

00:16:31:04 - 00:16:53:01
Lisa Danels
Right. And what I would encourage people to do is just say, well, what doesn't feel right, right. You know, explore it a little bit, ask some more questions. Why it doesn't feel right. Right. Because there's different points of intuition. Like I get download models information, just download when I'm when I'm when I'm getting introduced to information and things just come together.

00:16:53:03 - 00:17:10:19
Lisa Danels
I also get what we call clear audience where I have all of a sudden I have words coming into my head, right? The key thing is we need to be able to differentiate them because some people go, well, I don't know if it's my inner voice or my ego talking or it's my intuition. And the easy way to tell is intuition is short, sweet, and to the point.

00:17:10:21 - 00:17:20:04
Lisa Danels
It doesn't have long sentences. There's no fear involved. It just tells you something very matter of fact. And that's how you know. That's how you know the difference.

00:17:20:06 - 00:17:43:04
Kevin Eikenberry
I think at your point, it's really important one about, when you feel that when you get that sense to explore it further, like what? So what so often happens is people immediately downplay it or try to set it to the side, and you need to explore it. And then using your head and heart more. Yes. To put it all together, to say yes.

00:17:43:04 - 00:17:52:02
Kevin Eikenberry
No, not sure. Was that really real? Was that not real? But like, if we just ignore it, deny it or or squelch it, don't have any chance.

00:17:52:08 - 00:18:10:21
Lisa Danels
No. And and it gets you know. Absolutely. And it gets I had a leader recently who just said, oh, you know, I get these intuitions and then I just bring it into logic. And she goes, that's bad, right? I said, no, that's actually wonderful because you have to be able to use the head, heart and mind and the gut together and you need to be able to.

00:18:10:21 - 00:18:35:00
Lisa Danels
So, so for me, I get a lot of earlier on, I used to get a lot of impressions right. And I didn't really know how to take those impressions and architect them into something that was meaningful. Right. So I couldn't get the connection between the intuition and the mind. I had to learn how to architect, to be an architect in my life, because then I couldn't bring the insights into something meaningful.

00:18:35:02 - 00:18:37:23
Lisa Danels
So we have to learn how to do that as well.

00:18:38:01 - 00:19:01:04
Kevin Eikenberry
one of the chapters in the book that I think, is especially helpful, in part because, leaders, humans. But leaders have challenges with this idea sometimes, or or misappropriate this a bit. is the idea of power. So I just thought, oh, excuse me to talk a little bit about the difference between personal power and positional power.

00:19:01:06 - 00:19:23:17
Lisa Danels
Yeah. So there has been a transition going on. I would probably say over the last 30 to 40 years. And this is when we always thought about leadership. We always thought about power over, which is few people have it and we try to maintain it and control it. And that other people, we could project control people. Then we made the shift into more matrix organizations.

00:19:23:17 - 00:19:44:02
Lisa Danels
And I have to say this is the gift of generation X, what they did because generation X started to dissolve this power over method kind of mentality. And they started to move what I call power with, which is I want to collaborate. I want to hear from you. I want to understand you. Right. And that's great. And we want this power with.

00:19:44:04 - 00:20:05:23
Lisa Danels
But the most important thing is we need to understand the power within. Because everybody, everybody walking on this planet has equal power. And when we understand that, that means we might not have all the same gifts. I know we don't. Right? But if we know what gifts we have, then we can add them to the world and make it a better place.

00:20:06:01 - 00:20:23:18
Lisa Danels
So that's the big difference. So it's this personal power is I could I doesn't make a difference. I used to work with a a CEO of a of a big pharma company, and I would walk in his office and I would say, hey, what's going on here? And, and have a dialog with him. I never said, oh my God, he's the CEO.

00:20:23:18 - 00:20:36:00
Lisa Danels
I can't talk to him. Right. Because I walked in going, we have equal power, not equal hierarchy, but equal power in terms of contribution and I want people to think about that in a different way.

00:20:36:02 - 00:20:47:01
Kevin Eikenberry
I love that, and that's important not only for us if we sit somewhere in the organization, but how are we creating that and allowing that with the folks hierarchically below us? Yeah.

00:20:47:03 - 00:21:02:12
Lisa Danels
and this and this gets into can I just share this? Because this is an important point. This gets into that personal agency, which is our ability to shape. So we have an assessment that goes with the book. And one of the things we're doing in a research study is we seeing leaders who are more senior have higher personal agency, right.

00:21:02:15 - 00:21:15:17
Lisa Danels
And middle managers really get stuck here because they're stuck between they're sandwiched between the senior leaders and the below. And they kind of go, well, I can't implement this. I don't have any control. So they're actually giving up their personal power.

00:21:15:19 - 00:21:17:09
Kevin Eikenberry
100% happens every day.

00:21:17:09 - 00:21:18:17
Lisa Danels
Giving it up all the time.

00:21:18:19 - 00:21:42:08
Kevin Eikenberry
All the time. Yep. So, we we've talked a little bit about that, about the head, heart and gut. We've talked a little bit about knowing ourselves in terms of power, peace. I'd like to talk briefly about, the role of trust and how that fits together in terms of, of building the levels of connection that we need in your, in your framework to get to co-creation.

00:21:42:08 - 00:21:59:18
Kevin Eikenberry
So let's just talk about trust, for a couple of minutes, like, what are a couple of key points that you would make, about trust for all of us, maybe give us, give us something to to help us think about how we can build it better with us.

00:21:59:18 - 00:22:24:10
Lisa Danels
Yeah. So. So this was probably the one where I had the most eye opener when I was writing the book and doing the research, because trust really comes from the first ten, 18 months of life. And it's something called attachment, healthy attachment and 50% of the population does not have healthy attachment. So then you sit there and you watch the dynamics and organizations, and you wonder why people are acting the way they're acting.

00:22:24:12 - 00:22:37:09
Lisa Danels
And then you go, well, 50% of these people don't have healthy attachment, so therefore they're going to show up. Their trust levels are not where they need to be in order to have dynamic, authentic connection. Now you can do it.

00:22:37:09 - 00:22:59:17
Kevin Eikenberry
Let's say something there. So I often do this exact same idea. I often talk about it as a trust thermostat and like we've got it. We've all have a starting point and we can adjust it, but it takes a lot of work to make that adjustment. But we have to recognize that we come into a working situation, and all of our team members come into a working situation with sort of a set point.

00:22:59:18 - 00:23:05:03
Kevin Eikenberry
Absolutely. Where where they're starting on trust before anything else happens.

00:23:05:05 - 00:23:22:15
Lisa Danels
No, I think that's an excellent point. And what I, what I, say in the book is I say, you know, instead of reacting and being judgmental, which it's so easy to be, right. What if you when you had an interaction like that, you took a step back and you were found more compassion for the person that maybe they didn't have?

00:23:22:15 - 00:23:44:18
Lisa Danels
They didn't get those very important childhood needs met that were required. Right. So how do we build it? One is we need to recognize within ourselves where that thermostat is. Right. And that's where self-awareness comes in. So one is we need to be able to understand that the, the, the level of trust that you have, right, is related to those needs.

00:23:44:18 - 00:24:08:08
Lisa Danels
So if I find myself being reactive, right, and look at the word reactive versus responsive, reactive means I'm reenacting something from my childhood, something that is unfinished. So I find myself if I find myself in reactive behavior, I need to give myself a timeout and I need to say what to what, what is unresolved for me, what's really bothering me.

00:24:08:10 - 00:24:33:04
Lisa Danels
And then once I start to do that, I start to build a greater level of trust with myself, and then I can then better engage with other people, because then I can respond. Even if I'm upset about something, I can still say, Kevin, you know, what happened in that interaction really upset me. And then I can engage with you in a healthy way versus going, oh, Kevin, you never let me participate the way I want to.

00:24:33:06 - 00:24:36:14
Kevin Eikenberry
Or is in my head. Kevin's a bad person, I hope.

00:24:36:14 - 00:25:04:09
Lisa Danels
Yeah, exactly, exactly. So I, I think I think that is a very important thing. I think also when it comes to interpersonal trust. Right. One of the things that I found quite astounding in the in when I did the research is in organizations. We don't we don't repair trust. Right? So in our home relationships, in our family relationships or friends, we tend to repair because we have somebody sleeping next, next to us in bed.

00:25:04:11 - 00:25:32:22
Lisa Danels
Right? So that makes it very uncomfortable. If we don't reset, right, the tension is too high. But in organizations, what we tend to do is we tend to marginalize or move around and we just go, we cut it off instead of really being vulnerable and saying, hey, you know, that last experience with you really, you know, when you shut me out of that meeting, you know, I really felt that you didn't trust me or you didn't you didn't allow me to bring my, my, my expertise to the table.

00:25:32:23 - 00:25:42:09
Lisa Danels
so we have to learn how to repair in organizations in order to really allow for healthy trust, because, look, we're human beings. We're not going to get it right all the time.

00:25:42:11 - 00:26:11:10
Kevin Eikenberry
Yeah. And I just my my observation would be that, the leader plays a role in encouraging, supporting, expecting those conversations and, when teams are remote or hybrid, especially if they're fully remote, it's even easier to hide. It's even easier to walk around. And yet, the and the lack of trust I it is just as important, right, that the breach is just as important.

00:26:11:10 - 00:26:27:15
Kevin Eikenberry
Even if we sort of tiptoe around each other or try to ignore each other. it's still causing challenges in the organization. It's creating conflict. It's probably causing a business problem. And that's why, as a leader, we've got to be, self-aware, and we've got to be ready and able and we got to be modeling that behavior as well.

00:26:27:17 - 00:26:43:00
Lisa Danels
Yeah. And we need to model it. But we also have to be careful. And I'll tell you where leaders have to be careful is, what a lot of people will do is instead of instead of addressing it to the person, they'll go to the manager and they'll do the dump and drop. Right. And leaders have to be really careful.

00:26:43:00 - 00:27:07:13
Lisa Danels
And I have I have no problem if someone needs to blow off steam, but the role of the manager is to coach that person, to have the real conversation. So one thing I find when people have a lot of conflict, they don't ask themselves, what's the real conversation that needs to happen? And when you ask that question, you really see a beautiful change in the conversation that takes place between two people, and then things get resolved.

00:27:07:13 - 00:27:26:17
Lisa Danels
Because I think a lot of people still have this limitation or this mindset limitation, where they think that if I engage with someone in conflict, that I'm going to damage the relationship. And if you look at all your relationships, any time you resolve a conflict, engage in it and resolve the relationship actually gets tighter.

00:27:26:19 - 00:27:44:03
Kevin Eikenberry
I'll make two comments and we'll move on. One is, you're exactly right. We want as leaders we need to support that happening. but that doesn't mean we're doing it for them. absolutely. So that when someone brings that to you as a leader, whether it's venting or whatever, the first response and what they're hoping you'll do is go take care of it.

00:27:44:03 - 00:27:46:16
Kevin Eikenberry
And your first response should be, have you talked to them yet?

00:27:46:22 - 00:27:48:09
Lisa Danels
Yes, exactly.

00:27:48:09 - 00:27:49:02
Kevin Eikenberry
100%.

00:27:49:02 - 00:27:54:10
Lisa Danels
And and if you're not comfortable talking to them, let's talk about how you get comfortable talking to them.

00:27:54:12 - 00:27:56:23
Kevin Eikenberry
Exactly. Now that now I have a coaching opportunity. Right.

00:27:56:23 - 00:27:57:21
Lisa Danels
Yeah, exactly.

00:27:58:00 - 00:28:14:00
Kevin Eikenberry
So so here's the other thing that was coming to me, as you were saying, that thing, you know, when we fix it, then it actually gets better in the end. And, and we don't think about that at work. I'll give you a work example. And that is everybody that is listening to this has had a customer service issue like I'm talking about.

00:28:14:00 - 00:28:38:06
Kevin Eikenberry
You're the customer, you've had a customer service issue and you and you got back to the to the vendor, the supplier and they fixed it. And so the customer service problem actually led to higher levels of loyalty, even if there was a mess up on the front end, like everybody you ever talked to about that says, oh, I got one of those.

00:28:38:08 - 00:28:42:21
Kevin Eikenberry
I got three of those. Oh yeah, I love that company. Now, even though.

00:28:42:22 - 00:28:43:18
Lisa Danels
Yes.

00:28:43:20 - 00:28:55:13
Kevin Eikenberry
Right. And this is an example that this isn't just, at home. that might be a personal example, but there's, but there's a business component to it and it's completely absent there. so.

00:28:55:14 - 00:29:11:23
Lisa Danels
And I think this. Yep. Nope. Sorry. Can I just say one more thing about the trust? Because I think it's important. I think the other thing about trust is we have to realize in the world right now, there's a loneliness epidemic. And one third of the people around the world are feeling lonely. part of it. Covid made it worse, but it was happening before that.

00:29:12:01 - 00:29:33:18
Lisa Danels
So these electronic devices we have are not really helpful because we have forgotten what it's like to be fully present, to give someone our full 100% presence. If you're trying to drive trust, you need to listen and be present with somebody. This is this will go miles and miles or kilometers. If you're if you're in Europe to to work on that.

00:29:33:20 - 00:29:48:12
Kevin Eikenberry
kilometers or kilometers, I don't know. Okay. So what I want to do is ask a couple of totally different kinds of questions. Perfect. Go start to wrap up because I'm looking at the clock here. So, my question for you is this. So what do you do for fun?

00:29:48:13 - 00:30:08:02
Lisa Danels
Oh, what do I do for fun? Well, you heard my dog before, so I love to walk with my of two Shiba inus. So I like to walk with them. I do yoga, I practice yoga regularly, and I just got a brand new e-bike. So I'm tearing up the streets of Basel, and really enjoying, getting out and doing some exercise.

00:30:08:02 - 00:30:11:10
Lisa Danels
The last thing I love to do is I love to garden and cook.

00:30:11:12 - 00:30:16:16
Kevin Eikenberry
And I also know there's something else that you like, which is to read. and I.

00:30:16:18 - 00:30:16:22
Lisa Danels
Read.

00:30:17:00 - 00:30:25:15
Kevin Eikenberry
To you. So I'm curious, could you to share with us something that you're reading now or that you've read recently that people might be interested in?

00:30:25:17 - 00:30:49:20
Lisa Danels
One of my favorite books that I read that I think is so profound is Everywhere You Go, There You Are by Jon Kabat-Zinn. I think it's a book that everyone should read, and another book I would recommend is Man's Search for meaning by Viktor Frankl. I think those are very profound books that will change the way you view the world as a whole.

00:30:49:22 - 00:30:57:20
Lisa Danels
Yeah, and another one that if you want to go more on the heart space, the Mastery of Love by Don Miguel Ruiz.

00:30:57:22 - 00:31:01:02
Kevin Eikenberry
as always, we'll have all of these in the show notes.

00:31:01:04 - 00:31:06:02
Lisa Danels
And, and in the back of the book, there's actually a list of all of these books I recommend as well.

00:31:06:04 - 00:31:24:11
Kevin Eikenberry
Perfect. we'll have all these books in the show notes, as well as Lisa's book, The Human Edge Advantage Mastering the Art of Being All In. So let me ask this question before we wrap up, where you want to point people, where can people learn more? Where can they get a copy of the book? Like where do you want to point people?

00:31:24:13 - 00:31:25:15
Kevin Eikenberry
before we go.

00:31:25:17 - 00:31:45:05
Lisa Danels
Absolutely. So if you're in the States, you can go to Amazon.com and Barnes and noble.com. if you're in Europe, you can find it on any of the Amazon Europe sites. you'll be able to find it as well as some local, book distributors. they if you want to find me, you can find me on Instagram.

00:31:45:05 - 00:31:56:15
Lisa Danels
My first name and last name, as well as, I have a website, Lisa, Janelle's dot com, and you can also find me on Human edge, my work email, which is, you manage.com. Thanks, Kevin, for putting that on there.

00:31:56:16 - 00:31:57:23
Kevin Eikenberry
Hyphen edge that.

00:31:57:23 - 00:31:59:22
Lisa Danels
Yeah. Hyphen edge.com.

00:32:00:00 - 00:32:18:06
Kevin Eikenberry
and Lisa Darnell's dot com. You can find her. And so, before we go, a question for all of you who are listening or watching, and it's the question I ask you every single week. So if you've been here before, you know what I'm going to ask? It is now what? What are you going to take from this?

00:32:18:06 - 00:32:42:06
Kevin Eikenberry
Hopefully you're going to go get a copy of Lisa's Green Book. perhaps you're going to, get a dive into some of the other books that she just mentioned. But much more than that. What actions might you take? Did you get something? As we were talking about, trust that you did go do did you have a new insight about your intuition and maybe have some ideas now about how, excuse me, how you might use it differently than you have in the past?

00:32:42:06 - 00:33:04:19
Kevin Eikenberry
Maybe the thoughts about power and the fact that there are different kinds of power, not just power over, but power with and power within me where my point is not to take this as an academic conversation, or certainly just as an entertaining interlude, and rather as a chance to take action, because it's when we take action that will get real, real, lasting change in results.

00:33:04:19 - 00:33:25:18
Kevin Eikenberry
And so, Lisa, thanks so much for being here to help us do exactly those things. And, if those of you who are listening on the podcast, I'm so glad that you are, make sure that you subscribe wherever you're listening. If you're seeing us the first time, whether it's live on one of the social channels or whether it's elsewhere, you know you can always find us on your favorite platform for podcasting.

00:33:25:20 - 00:33:36:09
Kevin Eikenberry
And so just search for the Remarkable Leadership Podcast. You'll find us, and then you can join us every week, because every week I'll be back with another episode of the Remarkable Leadership Podcast.