The Remarkable Leadership Podcast

00:00:08:08 - 00:00:35:16
Kevin Eikenberry
We all want to be more persuasive, more influential. I mean, every day there is someone that you want to convince about something. Today, you have the chance to learn about that important skill. The skill of convincing. The skill of influencing, the skill of persuading. from that important skill. And it's an important skill, especially for us as leaders, going to get the chance to learn about that from two experts from completely different worlds.

00:00:35:18 - 00:01:00:09
Kevin Eikenberry
Welcome to another episode of the Remarkable Leadership Podcast, where we are helping leaders grow personally and professionally to lead more effectively and make a bigger, positive difference for their teams, organizations and the world. If you are listening to this podcast, you could be with us live for future episodes on your favorite social channel. We have two ways that you can find out when those are taking place so you can join us.

00:01:00:11 - 00:01:32:07
Kevin Eikenberry
You can sign up and join our Facebook or LinkedIn groups to get all of that info and some other stuff too. Just go to remarkable podcast.com/facebook or remarkable podcast.com/linked in to get all that insight or info and find out when we're doing these live in the future. Today's episode is brought to you by our remarkable master classes. Pick from one of 13 important life and leadership skills to help you become a more effective, productive, and confident leader while overcoming some of a leader's toughest challenges.

00:01:32:08 - 00:02:05:16
Kevin Eikenberry
You can learn more at Remarkable Master class.com. Our guests today and yes, its guests. I'm going to have them join me now. Here they are. Let me introduce them to you. My guests today are Adele Gambardella and Chip massey. They are coauthors. Excuse me. Co-founders of the company. The convincing Company, a crisis communications and training firm. And the coauthors of Convince Me high stakes negotiation tactics to get results in any business situation.

00:02:05:21 - 00:02:29:17
Kevin Eikenberry
Adele owned an award winning PR agency in Washington, D.C. for 15 years, where she serves as served as a spokesperson for a variety of fortune 100 companies, including DuPont, Deutsche Bank, Lockheed Martin, SAP, and Verizon. She's also served as a PR strategist, corporate counsel and crisis management for clients that include the United Nations, Facebook, Johnson and Johnson, and President Biden.

00:02:29:19 - 00:02:59:05
Kevin Eikenberry
She has taught crisis communications and business at Princeton, Cornell, George Mason and Georgetown, and is a contributor to The Wall Street Journal and Entrepreneur magazine. Chip is a former FBI hostage negotiator and special agent in his 22 year career at the Bureau. He has led high profile cases, spearheaded the New York FBI's office of Crisis Negotiations teams, and won the prestigious FBI Director's Award.

00:02:59:07 - 00:03:24:14
Kevin Eikenberry
And today. Now you guys can add to your bio that you've been on the Remarkable Leadership Podcast. How about that? but listen, I'm so glad that you guys are here, and, I'm we've got. Oh, yes, Mr.. Josh is here from Dayton, Ohio. we've got other people joining us. Pam is joining us from Arizona. We've got an unnamed person saying, good morning, at least we know that they're in the US.

00:03:24:15 - 00:03:43:04
Kevin Eikenberry
listen, I'm so glad you guys are here. And we chatted a little bit before we started, and I think we're gonna have a fabulous, fabulous conversation. But tell us very briefly. And, Adele, you told me a little bit about this before we started, but tell us the very quick version of how you end up writing a book together.

00:03:43:05 - 00:03:45:23
Kevin Eikenberry
What's the journey to the book?

00:03:46:01 - 00:04:07:22
Chip Massey
yeah. Just so real quick. the whole thing was when I met Adele, it was at an entrepreneurial dinner, and, we started. It was one of those things, Kevin, where it's small group and you're going around, you're deducing yourselves, and, you know, after I heard what Adele did in Crisis communications and PR. So for that symbol, that's close to what I did.

00:04:08:00 - 00:04:31:02
Chip Massey
And so we started talking and Adele said, you know, I think there's more here that would make sense for us to keep in contact. We kept talking. And, that was, August about five years ago. And so Adele just kept asking me questions about what I learned at Quantico, how I applied it in the field, what was houses negotiations like, and just kept building up some the information.

00:04:31:02 - 00:04:49:04
Chip Massey
She said, okay, we have enough now. I said, enough for what? She said, we're going to put on a masterclass. It's going to be in three months. We're going to have it in New York City and say what? And that's what happened. That's how Adele moves. You know, I wasn't used to, that kind of mindset. Kevin, it was for me.

00:04:49:04 - 00:05:09:01
Chip Massey
It was very, you know, government oriented, very methodical. You got to move through things. You're going to investigate all of it, all angles. No. And Donna, she didn't sold that thing out. 250 people came and and then Covid hit. And so our in-person stuff was done. And, so Adele said, we're writing a book. And that's exactly what happened.

00:05:09:01 - 00:05:12:11
Chip Massey
And that's and that's why we're here today, with you.

00:05:12:17 - 00:05:16:00
Kevin Eikenberry
What you're saying, Chip, is that Adele convinced you? Is what you're.

00:05:16:00 - 00:05:17:22
Chip Massey
Saying? Yes, sir. All day.

00:05:18:00 - 00:05:40:01
Kevin Eikenberry
and so, I used a couple of other words in the, in the intro, and I did it on purpose. So, you know, the subtitle of the book has the word negotiation in it, but there's a bunch of words that we often put together. I didn't look to see if they're all exactly synonyms, but negotiation, influence, persuasion, those are all sound pretty good.

00:05:40:03 - 00:05:57:04
Kevin Eikenberry
Manipulation. Like, let's just get that out of the way right off the bat, because all of us want to be influential. And most of us don't want to manipulate. So like, let's just talk about what we are talking about here and what we're not talking about here. Can we do that?

00:05:57:06 - 00:06:18:21
Adele Gambardella
We can. But but here's the thing about the manipulation term, right? I think it's important distinction to say you can use tools for good or for evil, right. And it really is how you use the tools that you're aware of that make the big difference. You could use a hammer to build a house or break a window. It is your choice, right?

00:06:18:21 - 00:06:40:00
Adele Gambardella
So, it is so important to figure out what your goals are, but also to have the tools in the toolbox, like there's this, you know, there was this great study that we did that we found, as a result of writing the book, which is most people are as convincing as you're going to be their entire life at age six.

00:06:40:02 - 00:06:43:12
Kevin Eikenberry
I thought it was five when I read it, but six, okay.

00:06:43:14 - 00:07:00:17
Adele Gambardella
So if you sulked on the playground and got your friends to do what you wanted to do lately, if you're a manager, you're going to sort to get your employees to do what you want to do. We don't really develop beyond age six because, you know, whatever works for us has worked us for a long time, and we're getting nervous to try new things.

00:07:00:17 - 00:07:16:10
Adele Gambardella
And so we just go back to the things that have always worked. And if they don't work, we blame the other person. We say that person's a jerk. They don't like me, they don't understand me. They don't get it right. We blame someone else. Not thinking maybe it's us. Maybe our approach is off.

00:07:16:10 - 00:07:19:05
Chip Massey
Maybe what? It might be.

00:07:19:05 - 00:07:24:10
Kevin Eikenberry
Us. Now I've tried something 17 times and 17 people that were wrong.

00:07:24:10 - 00:07:50:16
Adele Gambardella
Adele, you hate most of us. Do not try new things. And so we really set out to create a very practical, implementable book where these strategies will make you more convincing. They will make you more persuasive. Yeah. If you wanted to manipulate people, you could probably do it with this stuff in this book, but you probably shouldn't. And, and, you know, like, what is your purpose?

00:07:50:16 - 00:07:54:08
Adele Gambardella
And think about what your purpose is when you're trying to persuade someone, so long.

00:07:54:08 - 00:08:12:05
Kevin Eikenberry
As it's certainly my hope that if you're watching this or listening to the Remarkable Leadership Podcast, that your goal isn't to manipulate and not to do things that are only to your advantage and not to the advantage of others. Right? So, I'm glad we got that out of the way. Thank you. That was that was for me as much as for anybody.

00:08:12:07 - 00:08:29:18
Kevin Eikenberry
one of the things that you talk about in the book, and I'm just going to tell everybody that, this is a this is a great book, and I and, and I recommend it highly. And there's no way we can talk about all the stuff that's in it, like we can't. Right? So we're picking the stuff Kevin wants to ask more questions about.

00:08:29:18 - 00:08:54:12
Kevin Eikenberry
Right. And the things that. So that's where we're headed. They don't know where I'm headed. but I'm going to just share a few things and we'll talk about a few things here for the next 30 minutes or 25, 30 minutes or so. So, you talk about the fact that there are four parts to effective convincing. So, just walk us through, you can't teach us the whole masterclass, but walk us through each of the four briefly.

00:08:54:18 - 00:09:05:12
Kevin Eikenberry
I'll pop them up on the screen as you come up with them. So, let's do that. Now, what if we want to be a better convincer? What are the four parts of that that play a role in helping that happen?

00:09:05:14 - 00:09:32:13
Adele Gambardella
Yeah. So number one is forensic listening, which is the art and science of analyzing a conversation after it happens because we believe words leave clues. the second part is the getting to someone's unstated narrative. What do they believe about you? But they are not willing to tell you? you know, we all walk around with different tapes in our in our heads about who you are, who we want you to believe we are.

00:09:32:13 - 00:09:57:15
Adele Gambardella
And we're not always honest about what it is. And who it is. we want you to think about, the next thing is targeted validation. So that is the idea of understanding where someone has the most energy, where they're most passionate, where they're most enthusiastic, and figuring out how to validate them about those points so that they can become better.

00:09:57:17 - 00:10:12:10
Adele Gambardella
And then the last thing is, bringing someone down a convincing continuum. And that is, you know, that that is with the long and short of it is never starting with your strongest point first. But we could go into.

00:10:12:12 - 00:10:28:17
Kevin Eikenberry
I want to read more about that in a few minutes, but I won't say I want you to talk a little bit more about, targeted validation because, like, we all sort of know we want to be validated, sort of understate. We understand that at some level. But Chip, what what are you talking about when you talk about targeted validation?

00:10:28:17 - 00:10:44:18
Kevin Eikenberry
So like right now you guys are observing me. You have been for about 20 minutes, which is just a little bit unnerving. Just saying. Especially with chip on on the call here. but but but like what's what when you talk about targeted validation, what do you mean? Say a little bit more about that chip.

00:10:44:20 - 00:11:09:05
Chip Massey
Sure. And so it can be used in, in two different senses is what we describe. Now the first is that just like a Dell set up and you know this all too well, Kevin working in leadership training is that we go around through life. So often and we don't hear anything good about our performance. It's always, here's where you drop the ball, here's where you could have done better.

00:11:09:08 - 00:11:35:11
Chip Massey
Here's where you could have picked up the other end of that. You know, you left some money on the table, you know, where is it that in our lives, in our work lives that do we ever hear, hey, this was a really good job you did. And here are the five things as to why it was so. So that is like the idea of, you know, instead of being the micromanager that is always on top of people, why not be the micromanager?

00:11:35:11 - 00:12:00:18
Chip Massey
That's always validating where you can, you know, catch people doing good, as the saying goes. And the second way of targeted validation that we advise for people is that, you know, a person might come to you like when like Kevin, when you talk to executives and when we do, we we often see a bundle of things. And we could say that maybe 96% in that bundle we don't like.

00:12:00:20 - 00:12:33:22
Chip Massey
But there is there is that that 4% that we would like to grow and pull out. So what we're going to do is we're going to validate those things. You know, they might have done some horrible management leadership interaction, but dagnabbit, if you can find that one thing, pull it out and say, you know, right here in this meeting, I noticed when when Mark was being attacked just mercilessly and you, you came to his aid and I got to tell you, it made an impact on me and it made an impact on my entire team.

00:12:34:04 - 00:12:52:09
Chip Massey
And we know that you have our back now. They could be a horrible manager everywhere else and everything else they're doing right. But if you pull that thing out, show to them, validate that what's going to happen in that person. They're going to want to grow that because they're going to want to keep you in that kind of loop of validating them.

00:12:52:11 - 00:13:13:18
Kevin Eikenberry
It's going to be repeatable. So so I have to say, Chip, I believe, episode number 437, it's the first time the word dagnabbit has been used on this podcast. So I just got to start there. and the other thing that I want to say is that you're telling this you're telling us all that, and I'm reminded of a story in the book about, I believe his name was, Marco.

00:13:13:20 - 00:13:36:02
Kevin Eikenberry
who? His. Like, I don't know, he was a gang. A gang criminal. He's a criminal. And he was in prison for like, eight lifetimes or something. But you were able to have a calm, a valuable conversation with him because of targeted validation. And you'd spent some time going back and looking at his past. Give us, give us like, 30s on that because it was such a great story.

00:13:36:02 - 00:13:38:15
Kevin Eikenberry
And it's it's where I went to when you started talking about this.

00:13:38:18 - 00:13:59:06
Chip Massey
Short and, and the whole thing with Marco got just like, just like Kevin said is that, you know, eight murders on him. He was an enforcer for a cartel. And he was not getting out of prison. He was there for us until he died. So he had information that we needed to use on the on another investigation that another, squad needed.

00:13:59:08 - 00:14:22:14
Chip Massey
So I was sent with another agent to try to see if he would give us any information at all. Well, I'm thinking going into prison, the idea that it's very transactional, you know, you give, I give, you know, kind of thing. And it's what most people call a negotiation. So I'm going in already with that mindset. And so when we sit down in the setup for Marco, by the way, guys, is that he comes in that room and he's owning that room.

00:14:22:16 - 00:14:44:10
Chip Massey
I mean, he's in control in in the way he's presenting himself. His hair's perfect. Not not one piece of hair out of place. His orange jumpsuit looks like he was just pressed. That's how he appears. He sits down calmly and looks at us, and we start the conversation. And as I begin the first words, Kevin, he looks up into the right over my shoulder.

00:14:44:12 - 00:14:59:16
Chip Massey
So I'm presenting him with different kind of things still up and to the right. I'm saying we could improve yourself. We could move you across the country so you could be closer to family, up to the right. Not saying anything. This went on for about 20 or so minutes. And finally, you know, our time has come to it.

00:14:59:16 - 00:15:16:17
Chip Massey
And I said, well, listen, Marco, you know, it doesn't look like that. This was anyone's good use of time. We're going to go now. And as I'm thinking about and getting ready to get up and realize I'm going to face a complete, you know, loss here and have to explain to people why I was I could not get any information.

00:15:16:19 - 00:15:34:14
Chip Massey
I was thinking about, you know, the investigation that we did beforehand, that his records, all his files, the tapes that we had of him, videos and went through all that and how he was appearing just now. And so and then I said in the moment I said, as we're getting ready, leave. I said, listen, I just want to say one thing to you.

00:15:34:16 - 00:15:56:15
Chip Massey
you know, while I can't ever condone anything that you've done in these murders and the way you moved, I can tell you that every action that you took within that organization resulted in the growth of that cartel and that you increase their coffers. You you grew their territory in every way. So from that standpoint, I just have to tell you, respect.

00:15:56:17 - 00:15:57:20
Chip Massey
And I'm getting ready to leave.

00:15:57:20 - 00:16:01:03
Kevin Eikenberry
And that's everybody for 4%. 96%.

00:16:01:03 - 00:16:27:17
Chip Massey
Yeah. They're right. Right and and right. At that point I hear his voice. He says, hold up, sit down and ask me your questions again. And I did. And he just he became animated. He became like this extraordinary teller of information and facts. And I figured it out. And by remind you, Kevin, we didn't give him one thing, not one thing.

00:16:27:19 - 00:16:28:07
Chip Massey
The only.

00:16:28:09 - 00:16:29:18
Kevin Eikenberry
You did. He gave him validation.

00:16:29:21 - 00:16:53:20
Chip Massey
I did right. And and also within that wrapped in that, Kevin, is the unstated narrative, that disconnect between what people believe about you and what they're actually going to tell you. And the way they see themselves in the world. And Marco saw himself now in the prison confines as a consultant. He wanted to be seen as a business person that that knew how to get results.

00:16:53:22 - 00:17:04:06
Chip Massey
And so once I gave him that respect, that validation, he he became a completely different person in terms of providing information. So that's the Marcus story.

00:17:04:06 - 00:17:20:19
Kevin Eikenberry
So there you go. There's a whole bunch of those kind of stories in the book, everybody. So I've got several things I want to talk about. You hinted at a couple of things that I want to go back to, and actually I want to go to it now. I think there's a connection to the Marco story, at least there is in my own head, which may or may not be accurate.

00:17:20:21 - 00:17:38:22
Kevin Eikenberry
but I want to talk a little bit more about because you mentioned it. Adele. Forensic listening. We all have heard of active listening and where at some, my belief is all of us are really good at it sometimes and really not good at it most of the time. Like, we all know how to be active listeners. We've all done it.

00:17:39:00 - 00:17:49:08
Kevin Eikenberry
but you're suggesting something more, something that happens after the exchange has happened. something called forensic listening. Talk a little bit more about that.

00:17:49:10 - 00:17:54:06
Adele Gambardella
Yeah. I mean, this is really Tip's expertise, so, tip, can you jump in and talk about forensic listening?

00:17:54:10 - 00:18:16:13
Chip Massey
Yeah, Italians do. Well, but I'll, I'll, I'll throw it out here. The idea is that it is it is the art and science of analyzing a conversation after it's happened. So just like you set it up, Kevin, you know, active listening in in process while it's happening right there and used primarily for de-escalation purposes, getting somebody from a ten to a 5 to 1.

00:18:16:15 - 00:18:39:19
Chip Massey
Well, forensic listening is realizing that after you have a conversation, there is a goldmine of information that that person has shared with you, whether that's a prospective client, current client, a boss supervisor, direct report, a team, whatever that is. If you can go through a conversation and then figure out from a standpoint, we recommend people take notes from from four areas.

00:18:39:21 - 00:19:08:13
Chip Massey
And that's and that's emotion theme development, body positioning and voice, your pitch tone and cadence. So in in the in the emotion you are going to attach okay. That person's talking to me and I'm sensing where they're excited, where they're kind of down where there's a gap. Right Kev. And then you're going to also look at where what it is, their themes, are they developing the thing if they repeat it more than once it's important to them.

00:19:08:15 - 00:19:09:12
Chip Massey
So excuse me.

00:19:09:14 - 00:19:36:06
Kevin Eikenberry
Can I stop with second, please? so we often talk about communicate. There's three parts communication right. Message sent received and understood. And that we send messages in three ways. And all of those are inside of here. Yeah. And the obvious way we send messages is in the words that we say the words themselves. Right. And one of those is and that's the themes, but all of the rest of how our message is received is in, vocal and visual.

00:19:36:06 - 00:19:55:23
Kevin Eikenberry
And so three of the four things that you're talking about here are in the vocal and visual, not in the actual verbal words. I just, I that just strikes me as such an important thing, because so often as the, as the speaker, we think it's all about our words. But the reality is that's the least important ultimately of the three.

00:19:56:01 - 00:20:14:02
Adele Gambardella
It's true. And if you go into a meeting and you do this type of deep forensic listening, you will be so far ahead of any of your peers because no one is listening at this level. Right? Even if you have like Otter Eye going in the background, which is a which is a program you can get rated is pretty inexpensive.

00:20:14:04 - 00:20:34:01
Adele Gambardella
You and you have that going in the background, but you are taking notes on a piece of paper like this, just jotting down like, this person got excited, right, with a pen. this person got excited. this person got excited when they said this. They they got animated. Their body positioning seemed, you know, they were leaning in.

00:20:34:01 - 00:20:58:11
Adele Gambardella
They were more engaged. Their voice took a different tone in pitch and cadence when they talked about something. You know, it's just so important that we listen at this level. And if you weren't then able, if the one skill you take from watching this, you know, live, if you take this one skill and you apply this in your everyday business, you are going to be so much more convincing than anyone else.

00:20:58:13 - 00:21:16:00
Adele Gambardella
Because essentially what you are going to do is you're going to take this data that you get quick data and you're going to wait. You're not going to do this right away. You're not going to use targeted values right away, but you're going to wait a minute, wait two weeks, three weeks, four weeks down the road, and then you're going to go and have another meeting with that person.

00:21:16:00 - 00:21:33:07
Adele Gambardella
I mean, that's how business is. Not like we meet every single day, every you know, it is really a series of meetings and you are going to refer to all four of these things in this quadrant, and you are going to get someone so excited that you paid attention at that level, that you're going to get invited to every meeting.

00:21:33:10 - 00:21:55:09
Adele Gambardella
You're going to be the person they ask back. You are going to be the person they believe in because you have listened at a level. I mean, like how many times in the course of our career has anyone complimented us three weeks after we had a meeting? It wasn't like, you know, Kevin, that thing that you said at that meeting when you were talking about leadership development, it really made an impact on me.

00:21:55:09 - 00:22:13:18
Adele Gambardella
It really changed the way I viewed the world. And, you know, I told my team about it. And here's the things that we did that increased my my business and my and, you know, you you never get that. You never get that. It's like we all can do it on this. On one hand, how many times we've heard that in our career.

00:22:13:20 - 00:22:19:16
Adele Gambardella
And so it's really huge. I mean, you do that one thing, you're going to be so much better than anyone else.

00:22:19:18 - 00:22:38:20
Kevin Eikenberry
So I told you all to start that. There's no way we would get to everything in the book and we're not going to. But what I am going to do now is I'm going to read a quote from the book. I'm not going to ask them to tell me what's at the top of page 59. I'm going to read what's at the top of page 59, because it's about this idea in the section about the, the, the convincing continuum.

00:22:38:20 - 00:22:59:12
Kevin Eikenberry
But I'm just going to read this line because I think everyone who's watching or listening needs to hear and understand this. And I'll let you guys sort of expand on it after that. Here it is. You may have truth on your side, but persuasion does not hinge on what is true. It's about what the person you are trying to convince believes is true.

00:22:59:15 - 00:23:18:20
Kevin Eikenberry
This is the key factor in understanding how far to push people down the convincing continuum. If you don't know where they stand, try asking open ended questions. So what do you want to one of you want to talk to that because, I think it's such an important point. And so often it goes back to what we did at six.

00:23:18:20 - 00:23:37:07
Kevin Eikenberry
Well, we know it's right. So we just like, keep pounding on that point. It's like the two people on and in. Pick your channel, everybody. Fox, CNN, I don't care which one you pick. And they got the we got three of us, but there's two of them side by side. That's what they're both doing. There's no convincing going on.

00:23:37:09 - 00:23:45:08
Kevin Eikenberry
There's no communication going on. But like, they just keep talking louder. Right. so talk to that. It looks like Chip looked like you were handing that to Adele.

00:23:45:14 - 00:23:47:05
Chip Massey
I am, yes.

00:23:47:07 - 00:24:08:10
Adele Gambardella
Well, one of the things is, you know, when I started out as my career as a journalist, I worked for George Magazine through John F Kennedy Junior's publication. And he was he was honestly one of the most convincing people I've ever met, in my entire career. He's a fascinating individual. But, one of the things, you know, when you think about the convention continuum is you never want to start with your strongest point.

00:24:08:10 - 00:24:29:15
Adele Gambardella
First, as a journalist, you literally start with an inverted pyramid, which is like, here's all my most important things the who, what, where, when and why. Get that done in the lead. And then the least important things get further down the article and with convincing is actually the exact opposite. You have to start with your point of agreement because you start with your strongest point first.

00:24:29:15 - 00:24:46:17
Adele Gambardella
All you're going to do is make the other person go, well, I believe what I believe, I'm going to dig my heels in and they're not going to be open to anything else you say beyond that first point. And so to be persuasive, you got to start at the point of agreement now to understand what your point of agreement is.

00:24:46:17 - 00:25:06:18
Adele Gambardella
You probably had to have been practicing forensic listening, right. getting to someone's unstated narrative, what do they really want you to believe about them? And then practicing targeted validation. And then when you do meet them and you are trying to convince them and you are trying to take them down the convincing continuum, you know what your point of agreement is.

00:25:06:20 - 00:25:26:13
Adele Gambardella
And when you know what your point of agreement is, you can slowly move them down the continuum, unfreezing your cognitive biases as it's called. Right? And then you use something called FUD fear, uncertainty and doubt. What are the fears about what it is? They don't know? What is their uncertainty around what it is they don't know around the topic.

00:25:26:15 - 00:25:51:03
Adele Gambardella
What is their doubt? What are their doubts or their fears? Right? And if you focus in on those things as you take them just so far and you're here's the thing, you take them just so far, but you have to stop. And it takes discipline to stop because we want to take them all the way to solve. We want to tell them why they're wrong, like everything they thought they knew was absolutely wrong.

00:25:51:03 - 00:25:58:10
Adele Gambardella
Because that's what we're all taught to do to be convincing. It's just not the case. If you want to be convincing, you have to stop.

00:25:58:12 - 00:26:20:20
Kevin Eikenberry
Because we're not. We're never making up their mind for them. They're making that decision. Well, we want to get them to the point. You call it the cliffhanger, where they where they make that they have the new insight and they make a new choice. It's their choice. I say, as leaders, we are in the choosing business. How do we help people make a different choice?

00:26:20:22 - 00:26:42:13
Kevin Eikenberry
there's so many other things that we could talk about. But, Chip, before we sort of move into the last portion of our conversation, I want you to talk briefly about perhaps my favorite chapter title of all time. And I can't tell you how many thousands of books I've read, but what you can learn from convincing about convincing from magicians, con artists and fortune tellers.

00:26:42:15 - 00:26:54:09
Kevin Eikenberry
you're really talking about cold reading a little bit. Can you just talk about that just briefly? Yeah. I mean, I mean, I read about cold reading before, and I know that all of those people do cold reading, but that is a chapter title.

00:26:54:09 - 00:27:01:19
Adele Gambardella
Friends and I fought for that chapter title. They were like, well, I don't know. It makes me we're going to stick this in. I'm like, we have to.

00:27:01:19 - 00:27:13:15
Chip Massey
It's and that's exactly right. And that's one of the things that when Adele and I were researching, like who were the most convincing people? Adele goes, you know, fortune tellers, fortune tellers are extremely convincing because I'm guessing.

00:27:13:17 - 00:27:17:06
Kevin Eikenberry
That you have not been to many fortune tellers.

00:27:17:08 - 00:27:26:07
Chip Massey
Not I have not, and neither is Adele, although she's got a great story for another time. But, with Madame Marie, in fact. But, the I in the book.

00:27:26:09 - 00:27:29:12
Kevin Eikenberry
Everybody, you just have to buy the book. It's got buy the book.

00:27:29:13 - 00:27:30:05
Adele Gambardella
At the.

00:27:30:05 - 00:27:49:06
Chip Massey
Book is, is that, you know, they are experts at pulling information out, you know, and that's similar to what I did in the, in the FBI is that a lot of times, all you're doing is setting them up so that they want to share, and they'll start with some overall kind of like things like, you know, gosh, I'm seeing a sick relative.

00:27:49:06 - 00:28:09:22
Chip Massey
Is that am I getting warm? And, you know, every who doesn't have a sick relative, you know. And so we just kind of builds from there. And after a while you're thinking, oh my gosh, this person knows so much about me. They must be in touch with that ether out there. No, they're just really good at letting you talk and wanting you to share more information about you.

00:28:09:22 - 00:28:28:22
Chip Massey
So whether it's your the kind of clothes you wear, they make a comment about your lifestyle or you know, you're coughing a lot, maybe they're going to say something about your health. So that's the idea. And you know, con artists do this as well. You know, anybody that's practiced that doing that split-second read, you know, to get you to do something for them.

00:28:29:03 - 00:28:50:01
Adele Gambardella
Yeah, yeah. And cold reading is so much about like just saying what's called for your statements or what we call in the book predictive statements. Right. And you make statements about them when you're sort of guessing. Right. You're you're using some initial information that you might get when you just first meet them. The with the way they dress, with the way they look, with the way they talk.

00:28:50:01 - 00:29:07:16
Adele Gambardella
Right? I mean, you're making some snap judgments, but predictive statements give you the ability to sort of guess politely, you know, like, you know, you have an enormous amount of untapped potential that's yet to be discovered, you know, and I just stop now. Most people are like, I do have untapped potential.

00:29:07:16 - 00:29:11:00
Kevin Eikenberry
I oh, did you know you're so darn smart?

00:29:11:02 - 00:29:11:15
Chip Massey
No.

00:29:11:17 - 00:29:28:14
Adele Gambardella
Oh, right. You must be a psychic. And tell me about what my potential is. And some people like. Well, I don't know if I would say anything, and it's like you'd you'd have to say something because everybody thinks, that people don't understand what they really are about. and they want to fill in the blanks for people.

00:29:28:14 - 00:29:47:07
Adele Gambardella
They want to be understood. And when I first brought this idea, Chip, I was like, come on. Like as an FBI special agent, you must have used some of these predictive statements in your interrogation. And yeah, that was a bit of a conversation. He's like, well, I don't know about that. But you again, can you give an example on how you you you what.

00:29:47:08 - 00:30:04:17
Chip Massey
Yeah, it's it's it's about mitigation, I think. And that's, that's somewhat of a corollary to what we're talking about here is that, you know, when somebody starts, you know, if they were sitting across from me, they they've done something heinous. And it was my job to get them to describe it, you know, to a degree. So I can put that in my report and so forth.

00:30:04:17 - 00:30:26:10
Chip Massey
But nobody wants to fess up to that, right? Nobody wants to actually go over those things unless, you know, you've you've got some completely different issues. But but. Right. But for for most of us is, you know, we sit, you know, when we're in judgment and thinking about our future lives, you know, it behind bars where we're trying to, you know, scramble and so forth.

00:30:26:10 - 00:30:51:11
Chip Massey
And, and we want to hide. So my job is to bring it out, to bring that person out of that hiding. And so one of the things is, is to start off, let's say, completely heinous crime, murder or something like that and say, you know, I just want you to know, after a while, after I've talked to the person and, and we've been sitting for a while, I'll say something like, that is a, you know, I've talked to a lot of people, a lot of bad people.

00:30:51:13 - 00:31:16:05
Chip Massey
And I just want you to know that after getting a sense of who you are and what you are, I got to tell you, you're not a bad person. And I just let that hang. And so what they're going to say, their natural inclination is right. Yeah. I mean, yeah, I, you know, these factors were were determined and what I had and what I did, they they made me do this, this, this circumstance, I had no choice.

00:31:16:05 - 00:31:17:18
Kevin Eikenberry
Right.

00:31:17:20 - 00:31:25:23
Chip Massey
You offer you offer that. That's again all that is, is, is a part of those those kind of statements. Yeah.

00:31:26:01 - 00:31:46:16
Kevin Eikenberry
So I do need for us to start to move to the end because this isn't your entire masterclass. Right. This is just a little snippet of for everybody. We're talking with Adele. Gambardella and Chip massey about their book Convince Me, which hopefully I have been helpful in convincing you to go get a copy of. But before we go, I want to know a couple of other things.

00:31:46:18 - 00:31:58:00
Kevin Eikenberry
and the first is like, I'm suggesting that everyone reads your book, but I'm curious what each of you have read yourselves recently.

00:31:58:02 - 00:32:19:23
Adele Gambardella
Yeah. So one of the, you know, one of the really hot business books out there right now is Atomic Habits. And it's really it's a great book. It's written really well. it's worth people picking up. And I think if you could, you could use our book and Atomic Habits together. you would be really much more persuasive in maybe less than 30 days.

00:32:19:23 - 00:32:25:18
Adele Gambardella
So check out those two books together. And I think, you know, you might have some, some good luck.

00:32:25:20 - 00:32:27:04
Kevin Eikenberry
All right, Chip.

00:32:27:06 - 00:32:47:23
Chip Massey
Yeah, and I would I also just want to say, one point here, Kevin. Folks, if you have if you haven't checked out who Kevin is, I urge you to do so. He's written a plethora of books. He does tremendous coaching and and leadership sessions. You know, in my life, I wish coming up, I had had somebody like Kevin who is steady at the helm.

00:32:47:23 - 00:33:09:22
Chip Massey
That's what you want, right? When you are starting out in your career or your mid-level or wherever you are, you really want somebody who's been there, done that and can can help you, you know, around the way. So I just put that out there. the, the, the book that I'm, reading right now, you know, because it's it's yeah, we're we're talking about warmer weather right now.

00:33:10:03 - 00:33:28:17
Chip Massey
Is that the Kobe Bryant, the Mamba mentality? I just I love the all the fascination around that time period where, you know, these guys were the best, like, you know, Jordan worthy and and and Kobe. but the mindset of winning I think is, is, is just really interesting to me.

00:33:28:19 - 00:33:45:22
Kevin Eikenberry
We will have both of those, in the show notes, for you, along with, of course, convince me my chip and Adel. so tell me, one of you where we can, find out more about you, learn about what you're up to. You get connected with you. Where do you want to point people before we finish up?

00:33:46:00 - 00:33:52:22
Adele Gambardella
Yeah, we'll follow us on Instagram at convincing co underscore. That'd be great. there's the.

00:33:52:22 - 00:33:57:02
Chip Massey
I'm not hard to find at all. No.

00:33:57:04 - 00:34:15:14
Adele Gambardella
and then, the other thing is you want to go to our website called training. So good.com. We are going to be launching a series of masterclasses and online classes that people can sign up for and learn all about these different techniques. And we're super excited to to point you over there training.

00:34:15:14 - 00:34:36:12
Kevin Eikenberry
So good.com. You can follow them. Of course. Go find them on LinkedIn as well. And their company, I said at the start, I'll say it again, the convincing company or convincing company.com. Now before we go, everybody, I'm, I want to thank you guys for being here. But before we go, I want to ask all of you who are watching or listening, a question, the one I ask you every single week.

00:34:36:12 - 00:34:52:12
Kevin Eikenberry
If you've been here before, you know, and here it is. Now, what? What are you going to do with what you just learned? you may have noticed if you're watching. And I was taking notes as we went, about the things that I thought were especially helpful to me. I hope you are doing the same. Even it was only mentally.

00:34:52:15 - 00:35:16:02
Kevin Eikenberry
But. But writing a note is one thing. Taking an action is far more important. And so my challenge to you is what are you going to act on as a result of being here? Certainly, I would highly encourage you to go get a copy of Convince Me, the book. But you got ideas in these 30 minutes that can help you write, to help you think about how you tap into fear of fear, uncertainty, and doubt.

00:35:16:04 - 00:35:40:12
Kevin Eikenberry
We talked about the the convincing continuum. We talked about forensic listening. We talked about a whole variety of things, like, how could you use those things to be more effective in your work as an influencer, as a persuader, as a communicator, as a leader today? So I will leave you with that. And I want to thank again. I want to thank you, Adel, and you, Chip, for being here.

00:35:40:12 - 00:35:55:09
Kevin Eikenberry
It was such a pleasure, for us to finally have this conversation. and I want to hope that all of you will come back again. And as I promised at the beginning, I was going to give away a copy to the people who are here live. So, which means if you're on the podcast, I do this sometimes.

00:35:55:09 - 00:36:12:13
Kevin Eikenberry
Right? So you might want to start showing up for the lives. and the winner is Christina Rowe. So, Christina, I will be connecting with you on LinkedIn and making sure we get you a copy of this book. Not my copy, but the other copy that I have here. And, we'll do that in the next day or so.

00:36:12:18 - 00:36:27:10
Kevin Eikenberry
All of you can congratulate Christina and, you can all make sure that you're subscribed and liking and doing all the stuff you do with podcast so that you come back next week and not miss another episode of the Remarkable Leadership podcast. Thanks, everybody.