The Remarkable Leadership Podcast

00:00:08:16 - 00:00:37:02
Kevin Eikenberry
Welcome to another episode of the Remarkable Leadership Podcast, where we are helping organizations and their leaders grow and lead more effectively and make a bigger difference across their teams, communities, and the world. If you're listening to this podcast, you could join us live for the in the future on episodes on your favorite social media channel. You can find out when those are happening and how to interact with us, and get this information sooner by joining either our Facebook or LinkedIn groups.

00:00:37:04 - 00:01:07:02
Kevin Eikenberry
Just go to remarkable podcast Dot Facebook, excuse me, remarkable podcast.com/facebook or a remarkable podcast.com/linkedin. Pretty straightforward. Two of the platforms where these live stream. Before we get started, I want to tell you where we're headed. We're helping you solve a paradox of leadership. There are many paradoxes of leadership. We're going to talk about one of the most prevalent and important ones, and yet one you've maybe never thought about.

00:01:07:04 - 00:01:30:10
Kevin Eikenberry
And when you understand and can deal with the tension of this paradox, you'll be a more effective leader. So given that if before we go, if you want to get more information about how to get more from not only this episode, but any episode of any podcast you listen to, you can get my short, practical, free action guide.

00:01:30:15 - 00:01:58:04
Kevin Eikenberry
Just go to Kevin. I can.com/get more. And with that, it's time to bring in my guest. And here she is. Her name is Sally. Another wood. Let me tell you about her. She is the author of Graceful Power Solving the Paradox of Modern Leadership. She's a world class leadership coach with over 25 years experience helping business leaders, entrepreneurs and change makers feel clearer, braver, and more effective.

00:01:58:09 - 00:02:20:17
Kevin Eikenberry
After a decade in the fast paced world of advertising at three of the world's top agencies. She now works with leaders from organizations including Expedia and DoorDash. Helping them discover and embrace their graceful power so they achieve achieve far more with significantly less personal cost. Well, I'm all for achieving more with less cost. Welcome, Sally. Glad you're here.

00:02:20:19 - 00:02:23:20
Sally Netherwood
Thank you. Kevin, I'm delighted to be here.

00:02:23:21 - 00:02:42:19
Kevin Eikenberry
We had a couple of technical challenges before we went live, but we're hoping that none of those, happen now that we are live. I'm so glad. And. And if they do, Sally, I'm just going to keep asking you questions. Even if people can't see me. Hopefully that won't happen. So we'll start here. You wrote this book.

00:02:42:19 - 00:02:48:20
Kevin Eikenberry
You've been doing this work for a long time, and you wrote a book. Why?

00:02:48:22 - 00:03:08:23
Sally Netherwood
It came across me a put upon me, I should say, quite gradually. So I spent probably the first 15 years as a leadership coach saying, I'm not going to write a book. I've got no interest in writing. I haven't got the to say. I'm too busy coaching people, and I'm a very practical person. Kevin, I like to make a difference in the moment today.

00:03:08:23 - 00:03:33:02
Sally Netherwood
Now. So writing a book just seemed like a lot of being by myself, not really making a difference to anybody. But then gradually I began to notice a really consistent pattern, and it formed a thought in my head, amongst my clients. So that the leaders that were making the biggest difference in a way that they could enjoy, that was sustainable.

00:03:33:04 - 00:04:03:12
Sally Netherwood
That had people very loyal to them, that had people wanting to give their best performance, that had organizations thriving under their leadership, or teams thriving under their leadership, began to really see very clearly consistent traits between those leaders. And whilst they're all unique, that's this umbrella approach to leadership, which I've come to call graceful power. And I started trying that out many good times per book.

00:04:03:14 - 00:04:25:15
Sally Netherwood
So I started testing it with clients, talking about Grace, calling it owning Your Power with Grace. How did that and everyone I tried it with grabbed onto it and liked the concept. So I began to think, actually, Sally, you can be practically useful to more people if you capture this in a book and less.

00:04:25:17 - 00:04:45:23
Kevin Eikenberry
Maybe less impact with each one, but more impact in total, which is one of the reasons I think that the way I think about when I write a book, and certainly I think that applies to us spending this this time together, because you could be coaching one person right now, but instead, hopefully over time you're coaching hundreds and thousands of those of them.

00:04:45:23 - 00:05:05:05
Kevin Eikenberry
So, the big idea is this idea of graceful power. And, I, I named the episode, about the Paradox of Modern Leadership, which is the subtitle of the book. But what do you specifically mean? What is the paradox of graceful power?

00:05:05:07 - 00:05:34:03
Sally Netherwood
Well, I suppose we don't often put those two words together. Power tends to work when you first think of power and lean sideways for those with vision. The illustration on the front of the book is a very powerful guerrilla leaping gracefully, which is not something we always see. And it's this idea that you can be deeply powerful, you can own all of your power in a way that is graceful.

00:05:34:03 - 00:05:59:14
Sally Netherwood
So it's easier for people to receive. It's easier for them to respond to that power. And for most people, this tension, some of us are more comfortable with the grace element, more comfortable with being elegant and kind and thoughtful and listening. Some of us are more comfortable with the desk thumping rah rah let's, you know, do it. The more dictatorial, perhaps way, a more authoritarian way of doing it.

00:05:59:16 - 00:06:14:12
Sally Netherwood
And the idea is that we bring these two together, by bringing them together, you become even more effective. Even so, it's not a dilution. It's not a softening of power. It's actually an expanding and expansion of power.

00:06:14:14 - 00:06:33:13
Kevin Eikenberry
When we think about leadership power, or at least when I think about leadership power, there are different kinds of power. One of those is positional power, right. And one of those is sort of personal, and then interpersonal power. Which one or which what kind of power are you talking about?

00:06:33:15 - 00:06:54:15
Sally Netherwood
All of them here? Yeah. All of them? Yes. You know, you will be given a title. You can be given a promotion. And. Lovely. If you get a pay rise to go with it and and you know, and you can, you can maybe get a new badge or a new letterhead which has your power, but you have no power if you don't have influence and authority and something to go with that.

00:06:54:19 - 00:07:23:12
Sally Netherwood
So even if you have no title, you have the ability to lead with power. If you if you, with your within your community, within your family, within your friendship group, you can have power. And many people give that power away by over indexing on the, do we serving others, providing for others, doing more for that? Nothing wrong with any.

00:07:23:18 - 00:07:45:11
Sally Netherwood
In fact, far from it. Very important things. Whereas others give their power away by overindex thing on the assertiveness that the organization, the managerial that needs to be in the detail and need them to be on it. And again, this is about bringing it together. So if you are a CEO of a global organization, you will lead better with graceful power.

00:07:45:13 - 00:07:55:05
Sally Netherwood
And if you are a parent of a large tribe of children, you will lead them better with graceful power.

00:07:55:07 - 00:08:16:08
Kevin Eikenberry
You know, in my book Flexible Leadership, we talk about, flexors, and we could put grace and power, as you're describing it, as a flexor. And what I always say is that that when we do use your language, if we overindex either direction, there are unintended consequences. Yes. And so the right answer is where do we need to be in, in in that tension.

00:08:16:10 - 00:08:31:09
Kevin Eikenberry
And in your book you talk about a triad of things, the three components. They all start with the letter C. So why don't you start by sort of, giving us the lay of the land, and then I'm, I'm going to dive into some of the things I think will be most interesting.

00:08:31:11 - 00:08:39:10
Sally Netherwood
Them. So yes, the three components, which very conveniently all begin with C. The first is get extra points.

00:08:39:12 - 00:08:49:13
Kevin Eikenberry
Yeah. So you use alliteration, not just because it's a, it's a great, authoring tool, but because I like it. So there you go. Extra points. Sally.

00:08:49:15 - 00:09:18:20
Sally Netherwood
Thank you. Well, Congress is probably the least commonly used of the words. So there's congruence, this courage, which I think we all understand immediately, and compassion, which we all understand. But I like to frame it perhaps slightly differently sometimes how we frame compassion. So congruence. The first one is this. It's being at its most basic. It's being consistent with who you really are and how you show up in the world.

00:09:18:22 - 00:09:31:09
Sally Netherwood
And so within that it's there's the usual self awareness. Have you ever had anybody on here talking about leadership, Kevin, that didn't say you must be self-aware. So yes, it starts with self-awareness. You have to know.

00:09:31:11 - 00:09:42:21
Kevin Eikenberry
And yet none of us are very good at it. I mean, you're you're you're endeavoring in this book to help us get better at it. And yet all of the research says that people say they're better at it than they are.

00:09:42:23 - 00:10:08:04
Sally Netherwood
I think that's true. And again, to my practical side. So in the book, there are there are four aspects of congruence that we look at with very practical exercises. So I'm not just saying please be more self-aware. I'm saying and this is how to do it. So there's real exercises and case studies of some real some named clients and some sort of fictional composite ones to really help you understand how to do that.

00:10:08:08 - 00:10:28:07
Sally Netherwood
But it's essentially boils down to who you are at your best, who are you becoming as you develop and become wiser and more experienced in life? Who do you hope you? Who do you hope you become? What is your unique way of leading that makes you uniquely you? And am I to remember the last one of purpose? The sense of purpose?

00:10:28:07 - 00:10:51:08
Sally Netherwood
So being connected with ideally connecting yourself self sense of purpose with your team or your organization or your company's sense of purpose. And if you can manage that, which is not easy. I've said it in a couple of minutes, but it's probably a lifetime's work. But if you can manage all of that, you will begin to show a more congruent line so your team can rely on you.

00:10:51:10 - 00:10:58:19
Sally Netherwood
They can even rely on you when you're not there. They can say, what would Kevin do in this circumstance?

00:10:59:00 - 00:11:24:13
Kevin Eikenberry
They we're in the room. And the wristband that says that. So, so the thing there's a lot that I like in that, and I really like the, the part about not just who I am, but who I'm becoming because so often we can absolutely get stuck in this is who I am and have an identity that, that we've framed that isn't always serving us.

00:11:24:15 - 00:11:44:14
Kevin Eikenberry
And so, again, this is a paradox of not only who am I, who, who I want to become, which means that I have to flex and adapt, even though what stays the same, perhaps, is my purpose, and what stays the same are my my values. One of the things that you talk about is something called a leadership signature.

00:11:44:16 - 00:12:07:00
Kevin Eikenberry
Which sounds kind of daunting, and yet the way you lay it out, it doesn't have to take a long time to get a draft of that. I don't need you to lay out exactly how to do it, Sally, because people need to get a copy of your book so they can do that. But I would like you to describe what you mean by the leadership signature.

00:12:07:02 - 00:12:38:02
Sally Netherwood
So it's a way of drawing from all the leaders you see around you all the time from your parents, your teachers, your obviously the people in work, in government that you people you see on TV and communities, those that you think are fantastic, those that you are so in awe of, those that you shout at the screen when they come on or leave the room if they're if they come into your house, you know, it's harnessing all of that energy to understand more about yourself so it allows you to.

00:12:38:02 - 00:12:57:23
Sally Netherwood
I'm a big fan of writing things down, so I think if you've identified something that's important to you, write it down. It makes it more concrete. It makes you more accountable. Funnily enough, once you've written it down, you kind of it has more authentic, more mobile, authority. Somehow.

00:12:58:01 - 00:13:09:08
Kevin Eikenberry
It's also clearer, it's because because thoughts are fuzzy and words bring clarity. Right. So it absolutely helps with clarity, which we pretty much all need more of in our lives too.

00:13:09:10 - 00:13:30:00
Sally Netherwood
It also allows you to move on from it. It also allows you to go, oh, do you know what I have been doing that. But I realize, you know, the the phrase, you know, it's got me to where I am now. But if I keep doing that or if I keep doing it too tightly, it's going to keep me where I am now instead of where I want to go.

00:13:30:02 - 00:13:59:15
Kevin Eikenberry
So this is what I like about your becoming the idea of becoming right? Yeah. So the second key is courage. Yes. And, you're pretty clear about what you mean here and what you don't mean here. And so even though we all hear this word and you kind of downplayed it, even, as you said, the three C's, let's slow down enough to get to help people understand what you really mean here.

00:13:59:17 - 00:14:29:13
Sally Netherwood
So by courage, I think we, we have a, we think of a lot of the heroes in movies and books and things, people doing and incredible life saving and impressive things, you know, and if I use as an example, you know, Superman, you know, a building is falling and he pushes it back up or whatever he does, he catches the train and puts it back on the track, you know, and I'm not running Superman down, but it's easy for him to catch the train and put it back on the track.

00:14:29:13 - 00:14:55:23
Sally Netherwood
It doesn't take a lot of courage for him to do that. The courage that perhaps Superman doesn't have is to show up as Clark Kent. Put the two together. So in the context of graceful power, courage is about what you what it's about doing what you find difficult. So I find certain things really easy. I find tapping very intimate, one on one conversations with people an absolute joy.

00:14:56:01 - 00:15:16:17
Sally Netherwood
I love it, I am less comfortable. I find it a lot more nerve wracking to stand in front of an auditorium of people and talk to them. I do it, but I get very nervous about the auditorium, and I don't get a whole nervous about a one on one intimate conversation. Whereas many leaders, I work with it the other way around.

00:15:16:19 - 00:15:47:21
Sally Netherwood
They can stand up in front of a company, a full company meeting, tell them terrible news, tell them great news. You know, with with them might have a little bit of, adrenaline before they go on stage, but they are fine there where as a one on one conversation with some one of their colleagues or employees who's recently bereaved or going through a tricky time or is not performing in the way they should do or want them to, and they have to have that difficult conversation.

00:15:47:23 - 00:16:03:05
Sally Netherwood
They find that really challenging. And maybe that's the area of courage. So for graceful power, courage is about doing what you find difficult, what you find scary, what you find challenging, what you're not very good at yet.

00:16:03:07 - 00:16:14:05
Kevin Eikenberry
So how how do we work on that? I mean, that's that's easy to get intellectually. Yeah, right. How do we work on that?

00:16:14:07 - 00:16:45:01
Sally Netherwood
So, it's the whole self-awareness thing again. But the way I tackle it in the book is by first really understanding what fear is, really understanding the. And I don't go into it into any heavy detail, but to understand why humans feel fear, it's to keep us safe. We have the our primitive brains constantly on the lookout for danger and disaster, and it's what's allowed us to evolve, and it's what stops us from walking across a busy road without looking.

00:16:45:01 - 00:17:13:19
Sally Netherwood
First we we need that danger detection system, however it can be. It can also stop us doing important things, expansive things. It can stop us developing. It can stop us going, okay, well, I'm not it might say, Kevin, you're not good at those one on one conversations. It's going to go badly. You know, she's probably going to cry or he he might, you know, storm out the room.

00:17:13:22 - 00:17:30:05
Sally Netherwood
Just don't do it. You won't know what to do if that happens. So don't bother. So we don't bother. Whereas actually what you need to find within your so you need to hear those voices and understand. It's almost like thank you primitive brain for warning me that I'm about to do something.

00:17:30:07 - 00:17:33:08
Kevin Eikenberry
It's a signal. It's not a sentence.

00:17:33:10 - 00:17:35:13
Sally Netherwood
Yes, it's a signal, not a sentence.

00:17:35:14 - 00:17:37:18
Kevin Eikenberry
That was pretty good. I should write that down.

00:17:37:20 - 00:18:00:02
Sally Netherwood
Yes, I would capture that. I, you know, recording this, so it's okay. So it's a signal, not a sentence. And you can. It's often I like to think of it as an indicator of, oh, look at me. I'm about to do something new, and I'm probably not going to be very good at it, but I'll get better and perhaps.

00:18:00:02 - 00:18:00:15
Sally Netherwood
Well.

00:18:00:17 - 00:18:28:07
Kevin Eikenberry
And we're back to becoming we're. And we're back to becoming and all of what? The way you're what I like about the way you're framing the cell. And I'm sorry I interrupted you. Is that. The way you're talking about courage actually informs congruence, as opposed to being, completely separate from you. Talk about all three of these things being interdependent.

00:18:28:12 - 00:18:30:17
Kevin Eikenberry
And this is an example of that right here.

00:18:30:19 - 00:19:14:22
Sally Netherwood
Thank you, Kevin, because I didn't say that. So thank you for yes. It's not sequential. You don't get your congruence. Then you get your courage. Then you do compassion. These are all three interdependent. You need to be fulfilling all of these qualities or characteristics of leadership all the time. So it's a it's a constant, reframe. And the way I see leadership and leaders with graceful power, the leaders who can who can solve the paradox of modern leadership, the constant need to be authoritative and vulnerable, to be decisive and connected to the workforce, to fire people and make the others feel safe, to to do all of those things, you have to be constantly growing

00:19:14:22 - 00:19:36:02
Sally Netherwood
and evolving yourself. So leadership is a constant act of becoming. It's you're always becoming. Every morning you wake up a slightly different version of who you were yesterday. And you can do that randomly or and haphazardly, or you can do it with a little bit more attention. And notice what you learned yesterday and how you're going to apply it today.

00:19:36:04 - 00:19:57:05
Kevin Eikenberry
Exactly. So let's get to the third. See, which is compassion. And, and actually to do that, I want to share something you wrote. If I can get there quickly enough. At the beginning of the chapter about the compassion and graceful power, you said, I've come to see compassion not as a soft skill, but a core leadership capability.

00:19:57:05 - 00:20:04:00
Kevin Eikenberry
It's one of the core attributes that enables leaders to meet the complex and sometimes conflicting demands of modern leadership.

00:20:04:02 - 00:20:05:05
Sally Netherwood
Yes.

00:20:05:07 - 00:20:09:20
Kevin Eikenberry
So with that, as a jumping off point, talk to us about compassion.

00:20:09:22 - 00:20:32:09
Sally Netherwood
It it is a strategy. It's as much as that. It is a strategy that you need to employ. And some people listening to this think perhaps including us, Kevin, you know, we're not always good at being compassionate. We can be a bit judgy. We can be a hit a bit. Yeah. You know, all of us have that in us.

00:20:32:11 - 00:20:49:16
Sally Netherwood
It starts with, I'm going to try I'm going to try this on. I'm going to notice people more. I'm going to notice the judgment that I've made or the assumption that I've left leapt to. And I'm going to put it aside and I'm going to get a little bit more curious. I'm going to listen a little more clearly.

00:20:49:18 - 00:21:12:02
Sally Netherwood
I'm going to ask some good non-judgmental questions in a way that hopefully, deepens not just my understanding of that person, but their understanding of themselves, too. And when you get very good at this, and I've been a professional listener, you know, for 25 years, and I can still do it, I can still be better than I am now.

00:21:12:04 - 00:21:35:08
Sally Netherwood
So it takes some practice, and we're not all natural at it, but you can really be the person that that explores a territory, explore something, helps the person you're talking to understand themselves more. And actually, I want to mention one other thing about compassion, because, you you'll know this, Kevin, a strong part of what I say in the book is self-compassion.

00:21:35:10 - 00:22:08:23
Sally Netherwood
In fact, leaders have to start by listening to themselves. They have to start by noticing I'm feeling burnt out. I'm feeling anxious. I'm feeling resentful. I'm neglecting my family or a hobby that I'm particularly committed to tell people I'm committed to. But you wouldn't notice it from the way I'm behaving. So I don't believe that you can be a compassionate leader if you aren't compassionate to yourself first, because that's where the resentful ness starts coming in.

00:22:08:23 - 00:22:22:20
Sally Netherwood
If I'm exhausted and feel like nobody's listening to me and I'm not listening to me, then it's very difficult for me to raise my game to be compassionate with somebody else. So if.

00:22:22:20 - 00:22:25:07
Kevin Eikenberry
You can't give what you don't have right.

00:22:25:09 - 00:22:47:19
Sally Netherwood
Gotta have your own tank full first before you know and and being burnt out, being the last one in the office, being the first email out there in the morning has become a sort of sign of being in charge and being, you know, you know, being the leader. And actually, I think that's the wrong sign. You should be healthy, happy, you should be looking aspirational.

00:22:47:21 - 00:23:08:02
Sally Netherwood
Your team should look up at their leaders and say, that looks like a job. I'd like to have. They look like they're enjoying themselves. They know this is a hard job and I know they have stressful days, but they don't behave irrationally. They seem to be healthy. They're not abusing their body. They're not. They seem to be managing.

00:23:08:02 - 00:23:17:05
Sally Netherwood
I think I could do that. I'd like to progress through this company, through my hard work and my performance to achieve that myself.

00:23:17:07 - 00:23:18:19
Kevin Eikenberry
Because they're watching.

00:23:18:21 - 00:23:19:16
Sally Netherwood


00:23:19:18 - 00:23:47:22
Kevin Eikenberry
And they're watching whether we're doing what Sally just said or what the opposite of what you just said. Right. Yeah. So, the you talk about three skills to help us be more compassionate. And you've really talked about to listening and curiosity. It's the third one that, especially lights my fire because, I call myself the chief potential officer of heaven.

00:23:47:22 - 00:24:02:20
Kevin Eikenberry
I can very group. And I have a newsletter that I've written forever called Unleashing Your Remarkable Potential. And, your other skill here is belief in potential. Yeah. So talk about that a little bit.

00:24:02:22 - 00:24:09:19
Sally Netherwood
So belief in potential. Actually, I'd reframe that not so much as a skill as a state of mind.

00:24:09:21 - 00:24:15:09
Kevin Eikenberry
It's you. It's in the chapter about mindsets and skill sets, which is exactly what how we talk about it.

00:24:15:09 - 00:24:46:14
Sally Netherwood
Yeah, right. But it starts with the mindset. No matter who you have in front of you, no matter how they are currently performing, you have to believe that there's a little bit more. Ideally, you believe that there's a lot more, but if all you've got is that belief, there's a little bit more, start with that. So a leader with graceful power who can bring out the best in that people believes always, always that there is more in there and they see that potential.

00:24:46:14 - 00:25:16:00
Sally Netherwood
The way I like to see it is sometimes if you if you imagine the huge oaks that we all know, the huge oak trees, enormous trees, which are sort of ecosystems for many, many vertebrates and invertebrates and mosses and, em all live all the, all the stuff, all the flora and fauna. It started as a tiny acorn, and then it was a little twig blowing in the breeze and then nearly got knocked over.

00:25:16:02 - 00:25:46:22
Sally Netherwood
But every acorn, every twig, every sapling has the potential to be the mighty oak. And that's how we have to see our team. But ideally everybody around us for the potential they have. And then if you are a great leader, you will create the environment that that supports that person in their next phase. Move forward in achieving that potential.

00:25:47:00 - 00:26:00:16
Kevin Eikenberry
100%. So I think I've got three more questions, but don't hold me to that. The first one is.

00:26:00:17 - 00:26:24:14
Kevin Eikenberry
To me, there's two underpinnings of everything you've said. One is self-awareness and the other one is reflection. Yes. And as it turns out, reflection helps us to become more self-aware. So. So talk for just a second. If you if if I gave you one minute to tell leaders one thing about the importance of reflection, what would that be?

00:26:24:15 - 00:26:41:08
Sally Netherwood
Oh, that's a great question. I, I'd probably say it's the number one leadership responsibility. To reflect.

00:26:41:10 - 00:27:02:03
Sally Netherwood
Every moment, almost after every interaction and reflection, it doesn't mean you have to take half a day a week to go and sit under the mighty oak tree with your notepad and pen and, you know, ponder great thoughts, although that can be extremely useful, perhaps once a month or so, or, you know, that can be extremely useful.

00:27:02:05 - 00:27:23:23
Sally Netherwood
But it's at the end of you have a conversation with somebody, you hang up and you think to yourself, what went well in that conversation and what was surprising? What went less well? What would I do the same again next time? What would I do differently and if necessary, how do I make sure I remember that? Do I write myself a post-it?

00:27:23:23 - 00:27:45:01
Sally Netherwood
Do I say write when I'm talking to Kevin, I need to remember how important potential is to him. So I'll make a little note to myself to always refer to things, in the terms of potential that that will you know, that will light Kevin up. So what you have to perhaps have to have systems to remember these things.

00:27:45:06 - 00:28:12:07
Sally Netherwood
But, all you just catch it in yourself and you go, you know what? I went onto that call grumpy, and I was grumpy until halfway through, and then it got better. You know what I need to learn from that is it's maybe better to send a message saying I'm going to be five minutes late, go and have a cup of coffee and a couple of deep breaths that side and come back, in a more neutral state than being on time and grumpy.

00:28:12:09 - 00:28:46:20
Kevin Eikenberry
Absolutely. So this this conversation has been very much a, a personal conversation for us about us as leaders and yet many people who watch and listen, have a responsibility not just as a leader themselves, but for leaders in their organization. What's one thing you would say to, to an HR professional, to an LD professional, to a senior leader who's thinking about these ideas for their leaders, not just for themselves?

00:28:46:20 - 00:28:54:10
Kevin Eikenberry
What's what's one thing you would suggest for them?

00:28:54:12 - 00:28:56:08
Sally Netherwood
In the terms of reflection.

00:28:56:12 - 00:29:04:22
Kevin Eikenberry
Or just in general? Sorry. That's fair. That would be worthwhile. But it wouldn't have to be about that. But really, anything from our conversation.

00:29:05:00 - 00:29:29:17
Sally Netherwood
Well, leading on from the reflection, well, I'm going to give you two things now. You said one, but I'll give you a reflection. One, from the reflection is help people reflect. So as I've said for yourself, when you've finished a call or a meeting, you ask yourself how it's done. If you've finished, a meeting, perhaps with clients, with your team, or with clients or suppliers, you afterwards say, right team, what went well?

00:29:29:19 - 00:29:47:20
Sally Netherwood
What could have gone better? What will we learn from this? What will we do next time? And it can be as quick as there's going to be a five minute. Perhaps if it was a six month project, you know, you might spend an hour or two or even the whole day doing it was very critical. But what's just as important is to learn with.

00:29:47:22 - 00:30:00:21
Sally Netherwood
We usually very good at pointing out what went wrong and saying, we mustn't do that again. But it's equally important to learn what went right and to remember a build on that, not just remember to do it again.

00:30:00:23 - 00:30:17:13
Kevin Eikenberry
I'd say that if we did that, if we just made that part of our culture, part of our practice, that will make a big difference. Because if we said the underpinning of everything you've talked about is reflection and self-awareness, if we started there, there's a very practical thing that that we can all do.

00:30:17:15 - 00:30:40:12
Sally Netherwood
It's individual self-awareness, but also team self-awareness. As a team, we're not very good at engaging with the client. We tend to go straight in with the business. Maybe we need to learn to be a little bit more, light at the start of the meeting before we get down to it, because they seem to respond well to that.

00:30:40:14 - 00:30:49:03
Kevin Eikenberry
Absolutely. So you knew I was going to ask you this question, Sally. So I know you're ready. What are you reading these days?

00:30:49:05 - 00:31:17:01
Sally Netherwood
I have I've got it here so I can show it. I, reading a book called Brilliant Doubts Harnessing Uncertainty to Lead with Impact by Jenny Williams Jenny Williams is another British coach who I know and who published this book a few weeks before me. And we were very supportive in each other's books. Book writing journey. But we never read a word of each other's books while we were doing it.

00:31:17:06 - 00:31:37:04
Sally Netherwood
So I Jenny reframes depth of doubt in leadership is generally frowned upon, and what she is doing is reframing it as a strategy, as a tool for leadership, which is going to inform my coaching work going forward. And I think it's a really interesting concept. So I'm enjoying reading that book at last.

00:31:37:06 - 00:31:54:04
Kevin Eikenberry
Yeah. The point is that there is uncertainty, so there automatically is doubt. So how do we frame that in a way that we use it rather than trying to deny it, ignore it, hide it under a bushel or whatever that might be. Right. So I love that brilliant Doubt by Jenny Williams as well as your book Graceful Power.

00:31:54:06 - 00:32:02:05
Kevin Eikenberry
We'll both be in the show notes. And so where can we learn more? Sally, where do you want to point people, connect with you, etc.?

00:32:02:07 - 00:32:22:05
Sally Netherwood
You can find me on LinkedIn. You can, go to my, website, which is simply my name, Sally networks. And the book is available everywhere. It's on, all the usual online bookstores and the better physical bookstore or better, bigger physical bookstores.

00:32:22:10 - 00:32:44:00
Kevin Eikenberry
There you go. Sally, nether wood.com, everybody. So before I say thank you to Sally and I, even before I say thank you to you, I'm going to ask you the question that I always ask you at the end of every episode. If you've been here before, you know it. Here it is. Now what what action will you take as a result of this?

00:32:44:00 - 00:33:09:09
Kevin Eikenberry
Maybe you're going to resolve to be more self-reflective. Maybe you're going to take an action related to that. There's plenty of things that might have been that thing for you rather than me giving you my list, I encourage you to create from your list the one thing that you will do next, the one thing that you will try, the one thing that you will change because nothing's going to change until you do that.

00:33:09:09 - 00:33:21:08
Kevin Eikenberry
And the real value from this conversation will come from you asking that question. Okay. Now what? So, Sally, thank you for being here. It was a pleasure. Such a pleasure to have you.

00:33:21:10 - 00:33:24:21
Sally Netherwood
Thank you Kevin, I really enjoyed that conversation.

00:33:24:23 - 00:33:49:12
Kevin Eikenberry
And so everybody, I hope you enjoyed that conversation. And and you've thought about what action you're going to take next and you've decided to go to Kevin. I can recommend get more to learn how you can get more from any podcast, including this one. But I also hope that you will make sure you subscribe so you don't miss any future episodes, because we'll be back next week with another episode of the Remarkable Leadership Podcast.