The Remarkable Leadership Podcast

00:00:08:10 - 00:00:46:06
Kevin Eikenberry
Synergy. Trust. Unity. Success. Each of those four powerful characteristics will grow. Those powerful things that we want more of. We'll all grow with one other characteristic inclusion. Today, we're talking about what it means and what it takes to be an inclusive leader. There's never been a better or more important, important time to do exactly that. And so welcome to another episode of the Remarkable Leadership Podcast, where we are helping leaders grow personally and professionally to lead more effectively and make a bigger positive difference for their teams, organizations and the world.

00:00:46:08 - 00:01:09:03
Kevin Eikenberry
If you are listening to this podcast, you could be with us live in the future. Not for this one. It's already past, but in the future. You could join us on your favorite social media channel with us live! And to do that, you have to find out when things are going to take place and the best way to do that is to join either our Facebook or LinkedIn groups, which will give you all of that scoop as well as other inside stuff about the show.

00:01:09:08 - 00:01:36:02
Kevin Eikenberry
So you can go to remarkable podcast.com/facebook or remarkable podcast.com/linked in to join us. And then find out when you can join us. Live in the future. Today's episode is brought to you by our remarkable masterclasses. pick from 13 important life and leadership skills to help you become more effective, productive and confident while overcoming some of the leader's toughest challenges.

00:01:36:03 - 00:01:57:09
Kevin Eikenberry
Learn more and sign up at remarkable masterclass.com. And now that we've got that all out of the way, we can get to the main event. We can get to the star of the show. Her name is Priya now Kerr. She is, psychologist with a genuine and authentic approach, has earned her educational stripes from Harvard and Yale. She's really smart.

00:01:57:11 - 00:02:28:11
Kevin Eikenberry
she has a heart and soul. She is the heart and soul of the Round Table Institute, a pioneering force in inclusive leadership and professional coaching. Her book, which came out on her birthday, is called Stumbling Toward Inclusion. Finding Grace in Imperfect Leadership. It offers an engaging and human narrative of her journey, beginning with her former formative experiences and as an outsider in a small Canadian town, evolving into her mission to reshape leadership with a focus on diversity, equity and inclusion.

00:02:28:11 - 00:02:35:21
Kevin Eikenberry
And Priya, it's a pleasure to have you join me today. right now for me this morning. thanks for being here.

00:02:35:23 - 00:02:38:13
Priya Nalkur
So grateful to be here. Thanks, Kevin.

00:02:38:15 - 00:02:57:21
Kevin Eikenberry
It's my pleasure. So, I often open with a question about your journey, and I don't want you to go into that in great detail, because in the book, there's a tremendous amount about your journey. In fact, we were talking about it before we started that the book is almost two books and one the first kind of being like a memoir.

00:02:57:23 - 00:03:15:22
Kevin Eikenberry
but I do want you to talk about the journey to actually deciding to write the book and writing the book you still like, you know, when you were growing up in Canada, you weren't probably thinking you're going to be an author someday. So, like a little bit about how do you end up doing this work? How do you end up writing this book?

00:03:16:00 - 00:03:36:14
Priya Nalkur
Thanks for that question. I get that question a lot. And I, there's there's really two reasons. One, I wrote it for me. One, I there was a lot I had in my brain and I was like, can I do this? So let's see if I can actually write the book and, and just for myself, have a book on my bookshelf and feel at this point of my career that that was kind of a cool thing to do.

00:03:36:15 - 00:03:41:08
Kevin Eikenberry
Okay. It's a lot of work for just the self self-gratification, though I can tell you that.

00:03:41:10 - 00:04:03:08
Priya Nalkur
It's a lot of work. It's a lot. I happen to love writing to though, so it is also, you know, there's a lot of highs with the lows, as you can imagine. But the second reason was, you know, back in 2015, I had a client, everyone had gone through the program. Everyone in that in that company had gone through our justice, equity, Diversity and Inclusion for leaders program.

00:04:03:10 - 00:04:21:11
Priya Nalkur
And they said, you know, the CFO came to me after one of the workshops and he said, this is all great. We love it. It's already changing the way we work and talk with each other, but we need the companion book to go with this. Like, I want the reference guide where I can just like, you know, go through it and say like, how am I supposed to ask a question in this moment?

00:04:21:11 - 00:04:29:10
Priya Nalkur
How am I supposed to listen to this moment? Can you write that book? You can just self-publish it. It'll be so easy, you know, after you get.

00:04:29:10 - 00:04:32:00
Kevin Eikenberry
That person who never wrote one, just say, right.

00:04:32:00 - 00:04:58:07
Priya Nalkur
Exactly. It'll be so easy. Like famous last words, right? But then with more and more clients, ask for it. And you recognize that your program might be out of reach for some people because it is, you know, it costs something. It's an investment of your time and and money. So like, how can we spread the message of justice, equity, diversity, inclusion for leaders more broadly without people having to make such an investment.

00:04:58:09 - 00:05:07:04
Priya Nalkur
And it just complemented my personal goal to write a book really well. So I finally put pen to paper about a year ago and wrote the book.

00:05:07:08 - 00:05:28:17
Kevin Eikenberry
Here We Are. Well, the world is glad that you did. And so, you mentioned it justice, equity, diversity and inclusion. And in the open I use the word inclusion. The book uses the word inclusion. So that's really where I'm going to focus, not meaning the other parts don't matter. That's not really mine. That's not my, unstated intent here.

00:05:28:17 - 00:05:55:06
Kevin Eikenberry
So, I really want to start with a hopeful question, which is what can inclusion look like? Like, I didn't want to use the word should, right? I want what can it look like? This is meant to be, you could probably say it could end up looking like nothing like we want it to look. But, I mean, I'm asking this in a very sort of hopeful, positive frame.

00:05:55:08 - 00:06:29:03
Priya Nalkur
I hear you and I, I think I love that word can because it opens up possibility. Right. It's it's a much more expansive question than what should inclusive inclusion look like. So I think about it in two ways. One, there's an intra personal experience of inclusion, right. What is the experience within me and what that can look like is I feel like I belong, I feel understood, I feel seen, I can say what I need to say, I can take risks, I can hold back, I can be who I need to be.

00:06:29:05 - 00:06:47:10
Priya Nalkur
That intrapersonal experience of what can look like to me, that that's the ideal. And I want to make sure you know that it's precarious. Right? I might have that one day of the week, but I might not have a three days of the week. But it can look like that. If I have it one day, maybe I can anchor myself and say, like, I know what it looks like.

00:06:47:12 - 00:06:50:00
Priya Nalkur
I want more of that. There's also things.

00:06:50:00 - 00:07:15:19
Kevin Eikenberry
Where can I just, I want to I want to stop there for a second because the title, the book is stumbling toward inclusion, which is which implies that it's a journey, which implies that it's going to be imperfect. Yeah, that it's hard. Right. So we talked about this. If all of us are having that intra personal experience, then we've created it.

00:07:15:19 - 00:07:16:20
Kevin Eikenberry
Is that a fair way to say it?

00:07:17:02 - 00:07:22:04
Priya Nalkur
Yes, absolutely. And we have created that. That's right, that's right.

00:07:22:06 - 00:07:25:05
Kevin Eikenberry
And then I interrupted you. Where else are you going? So, you know, I.

00:07:25:07 - 00:07:26:01
Priya Nalkur
Have a personal.

00:07:26:01 - 00:07:27:23
Kevin Eikenberry
Experience. Is there more you want to say there.

00:07:28:04 - 00:07:50:17
Priya Nalkur
Yeah. So the first one is the interpret. The second is the interpersonal experience with someone else. Like who are we with you? Who are you with? Me? How do I enable understanding in you? How do I uplift you? Can I be someone who provides a platform for you to be all that you can be? And that happens in the interpersonal space.

00:07:50:19 - 00:08:09:10
Priya Nalkur
And I think inclusion in the interpersonal spaces, I can tell you the truth. I can say anything, I can challenge you. I can be challenged by you, you can resist me. And we're in it together. As messy and as as clean as it can be. We're we're in this together. That's the interpersonal dynamic.

00:08:09:15 - 00:08:37:16
Kevin Eikenberry
And let's be clear, we're all humans. And so it's going to be messy. Like that's okay. We'll get to that before we're done I promise. but now if that's if that's a picture of what this can be, then what is what does an inclusive leader need to or do differently, like, okay. Like I've been you know, I'm not saying me like I'm speaking for I'm speaking in the third person.

00:08:37:22 - 00:09:02:17
Kevin Eikenberry
Like I've been a good leader. I've had good success, things have gone pretty well. But now I really want to be more inclusive. I've listened to you. I think there's something else here. What do I need to do differently than I've done? Even if I've been, you know, pretty effective and and in all sorts of dimensions. Right. Like, what do I need to do different to be more inclusive?

00:09:02:19 - 00:09:27:02
Priya Nalkur
Well, maybe nothing. Right? Like, if you're an effective leader already, maybe you're already doing inclusive leadership without knowing it, right? I don't mean to call inclusive leadership as a different form of leadership. It is effective leadership. It's one on the same. If you're doing effective leadership, my guess is you're listening really well. You're asking great questions, you're showing up courageously and you're being vulnerable.

00:09:27:08 - 00:09:48:19
Priya Nalkur
The same exact ingredients you need for effective leadership are the same ingredients you need for include use of leadership. They're not different. Now you may decide to say like, hey, wait a second. We live in a world where justice is more important today and today than it ever was. What the world is talking about outside of work is coming into work.

00:09:48:19 - 00:10:10:19
Priya Nalkur
So I better pay attention to dynamics of race and gender and sexual orientation and politics and all that stuff. So if you're asking me that question, what does it mean to be a good leader in that world? Then you can extend that, you know, you can stand your skill set a little bit more beyond good listening and asking good questions and being vulnerable and being courageous.

00:10:10:21 - 00:10:30:05
Priya Nalkur
The question is, are you willing and able to be an ally? Are you willing to take on the struggle of others as though it was your own? Are you willing to examine your privilege, your power, and use it to benefit others who have less privilege and less power than you?

00:10:30:07 - 00:10:53:13
Kevin Eikenberry
So you mentioned it. I was going to try and find it and find it quickly. And I went. I didn't want to look like I was multitasking, which I told people on the front end not to do or listening to us. but you, you make a point early in the book, which I agree with and in your hinting at it here, along the line of the value of discomfort, I think you say something like discomfort is a useful friction or something like that.

00:10:53:14 - 00:11:12:00
Kevin Eikenberry
I think that's the line, that's what I was trying to find. I think that's close. let's talk about that for a second, because you also make the point very clearly throughout the book. It was sort of a set up everybody about what is inclusive leadership look like because, you say very early, like really great leaders are inclusive leaders, like, by definition.

00:11:12:00 - 00:11:38:17
Kevin Eikenberry
Like it's not something different necessarily. yeah. And yet you just posed some really challenging questions to all of us if we were listening carefully. And if you missed them, you all can go back and listen again. what do you mean about discomfort being useful? How do we how do we use that? both interpersonally and interpersonally?

00:11:38:19 - 00:12:04:08
Priya Nalkur
Yeah. Discomfort is that moment where we're on the edge of something new, some new learning, a new experiment, a new understanding of who we are or the place that we're or the or the environment that we're in. So we can do two things really like to be very reductive. We can ignore it and go on with our day, or we can leverage it.

00:12:04:10 - 00:12:29:09
Priya Nalkur
We can decide that maybe there's an opening here for us to learn something new. And I love learning because it's it's symbiotic with contribution. And I think if learning and contribution are our driving forces as leaders, we're going to have a more we're going to have a more positive impact in the world than if we were driven by something else like recognition and security, let's say.

00:12:29:11 - 00:12:52:03
Priya Nalkur
But being driven by learning, we're going to take that moment of discomfort and leverage it and say, okay, what's in this? Can I blow it up? Can I amplify it? Can I maybe generate a new idea? Can I stand beside someone else? Or if I'm so uncomfortable with that discomfort, can I ask someone to stand beside me and help me hash it out?

00:12:52:04 - 00:13:11:02
Priya Nalkur
So discomfort is a really good thing and it comes in the form of resistance, challenge, opposition, hard feedback. Right? These are areas that as leaders, I think I want us to invite those moments, or at least pay attention to when we're put in moments of discomfort.

00:13:11:04 - 00:13:35:08
Kevin Eikenberry
And I just want to say that when we hear that word discomfort, you may be listening, thinking about like the big things, right? Like maybe some of the kinds of conversations that you might be thinking about right now in this conversation that we're having about justice, equity. diversity and inclusion. But that point Prea that you just made is just as important in the really small things.

00:13:35:10 - 00:14:00:00
Kevin Eikenberry
Right? Because discomfort gives us the chance to be intentional and to reflect. It doesn't have to necessarily only be on the big, really hard things because discomfort, you know, you prick your finger and you have discomfort, even if it's only for a fleeting moment. and I think that, I think sometimes people like, well, I don't have any of those, like, things are going pretty well, and yet we all have moments.

00:14:00:00 - 00:14:12:10
Kevin Eikenberry
We all have moments. And you use the word resistance and those sorts of things. And I think it's worth us pondering that. You want to add to that. Like, I don't want to make this just be about the great big capital letter D discomfort.

00:14:12:10 - 00:14:37:13
Priya Nalkur
Things correct? I think discomfort, I mean, if I, I thought about this a lot and I think for me discomfort always comes back to fear something we're afraid of an inclusive leadership. I start the book honestly by saying, you know, I want to write a forgiving book because the truth is that people are very afraid, especially with this word inclusivity.

00:14:37:13 - 00:15:03:11
Priya Nalkur
Inclusivity, like people are suddenly afraid. Like, what if I say the wrong thing? That's an uncomfortable question. What if I do the wrong thing? Discomfort? What if I hurt someone? Discomfort. But we're we're just afraid. And so we we go back and maybe not confront that fear or that discomfort. My invitation is that, yes, it's scary. And yes, you may likely say the wrong thing, but you're X years old.

00:15:03:11 - 00:15:06:16
Priya Nalkur
You've said many wrong things in your life. You've done many not knowing.

00:15:06:17 - 00:15:09:01
Kevin Eikenberry
We're moving. We're learning.

00:15:09:02 - 00:15:30:11
Priya Nalkur
Right? Yes, but this is a necessary discomfort. This is a necessary experiment for you to face. You cannot ignore this anymore. You've got to maybe learn by saying the wrong thing and then repairing it when you do. And repair goes well beyond an apology.

00:15:30:12 - 00:16:00:05
Kevin Eikenberry
You're talking about being vulnerable, right? And and I've been working with an training and coaching and writing to leaders for a lot longer than you, because I know your language, because we talked about it before we started. Trust me, longer than you. And, you know, 30 years ago when you were in high school, the word vulnerability wouldn't have shown up in very many conversations about leadership.

00:16:00:07 - 00:16:21:04
Kevin Eikenberry
And now it shows up all the time. Yeah. And it's not just about because of the topics that we're talking about. It's more than that. And yet everything that you just said was about being willing to be vulnerable. And I'll go back to intrapersonal e and interpersonally hmhm.

00:16:21:06 - 00:16:22:16
Priya Nalkur
Right. Yeah.

00:16:22:16 - 00:16:25:09
Kevin Eikenberry
Something more you want to say about vulnerability specifically.

00:16:25:09 - 00:16:49:07
Priya Nalkur
Before we I just I really appreciate that you situated it in a historical context, meaning that 30 years ago we weren't having this conversation. Can you imagine a world where, like, we really the parameters of what we are allowed to be and do and say we're very, very strict and we couldn't really I'm guessing.

00:16:49:09 - 00:16:53:09
Kevin Eikenberry
We can be. And I was gonna say I, you know, my gut.

00:16:53:11 - 00:17:08:05
Priya Nalkur
But the fact that we can talk about it today, at least as a theoretical concept, means we're opening up a possibility of being more real with ourselves, even if we're just more real and private with ourselves.

00:17:08:07 - 00:17:31:06
Kevin Eikenberry
Well, it's it's it's more than just a theoretical concept. For some people, it's not much more than that, but it's generally now seen and I'll just say sort of in the business press, I'll use that framework as not just a theory, but a valuable attribute, right? Where 30 years ago it was more of a theory. I mean, no one disagreed with that idea.

00:17:31:06 - 00:17:44:07
Kevin Eikenberry
Well, a few few people ultimately disagreed with that idea, but in practice it wasn't necessarily seen as that. And that's.

00:17:44:09 - 00:18:00:15
Priya Nalkur
Right. Yeah, it's an attribute today. It's an attribute. It's a set of behaviors. It's the way I think of it is it's permission. When I'm vulnerable, what I every time I do this and I don't always, you know, I can't plan to be vulnerable. I just sort of happens.

00:18:00:17 - 00:18:05:03
Kevin Eikenberry
I'm going to be vulnerable today. What kind of my list of to do's right now?

00:18:05:03 - 00:18:32:05
Priya Nalkur
I'm done. I can go on of mine. But when it when it does happen and it's almost always met with appreciation and gratitude like, oh, thanks, now I see myself or what I've noticed is people doing the same thing, right? That's what leadership is ultimately like. Are you influencing people to be the person they need to be and vulnerability enables that time and time again.

00:18:32:09 - 00:18:39:16
Priya Nalkur
Sometimes I don't even know I'm being vulnerable and someone says, thanks for your vulnerability. Now I can share my story.

00:18:39:18 - 00:19:02:12
Kevin Eikenberry
Well, it's interesting so it's an attribute, it's characteristic. We said those things, but it's a behavior it should. To my point being this, that it's like any other skill we get better at it. Which means there are things that you you just described it that you will say like that didn't feel hard to me, that didn't feel being vulnerable.

00:19:02:12 - 00:19:09:01
Kevin Eikenberry
I'm just being honest. Yeah, that that same thing five years ago might have been very hard for you to say.

00:19:09:03 - 00:19:09:15
Priya Nalkur
You got it.

00:19:09:15 - 00:19:26:11
Kevin Eikenberry
Now. It's not now. It's just like this is part of how I operate. This is part of my operating system. This is part of my natural inclination. But it wasn't once. And so it's like a lot of other things. It's a skill that we can build.

00:19:26:13 - 00:19:46:09
Priya Nalkur
Yes. Yeah. Thank you for saying that. It's so true. And and as you know, because you've read a lot of the book is, I talk a lot about these skills being developmental. And that's why it's called stumbling towards inclusion. Like a 12 month old baby doesn't give up after they fall on the ground. When they walk, they get back up, they stop.

00:19:46:09 - 00:19:48:17
Kevin Eikenberry
And we don't give up on them either.

00:19:48:19 - 00:20:07:12
Priya Nalkur
Yes, that's right. That's the interpersonal piece. Yeah, right. So we don't give up on that. They're they know they're in an environment where they're safe to do that, where they can stumble. And so like I'm not saying go and stumble everywhere you can do it in environments where you have some safety, where you know that someone's going to be there to help you get back up again.

00:20:07:12 - 00:20:35:05
Priya Nalkur
And, you know, it's amazing. Sometimes we don't know that we have that safety. I fell off a treadmill back in February and it was amazing. There's like plenty of people in the gym. Only one person came to me. Many people watched. One person came up to me and said, you know, I can help you sue the gym. You know, like it's kind of amazing how the environment responds to your stumbles and you like, those are the conditions that are required for you to decide, okay, is this safe enough?

00:20:35:05 - 00:20:46:08
Priya Nalkur
Is this a place for where I can stumble so you know this, like invest in those relationships, build insulation interpersonally so that you can stumble.

00:20:46:10 - 00:21:04:03
Kevin Eikenberry
So let's talk a little bit more about that. Like I hinted at it in the open, you bumped up against it several times. You used the word safety like four times in the last answer. psychological safety is another one of those things that no one talked about 25 years ago. Yeah. Even though we sort of understood it at some level, it wasn't it didn't have it didn't have language yet.

00:21:04:03 - 00:21:11:15
Kevin Eikenberry
It has language now, what's what connection would you give to inclusion. How would you connect inclusion and psychological safety.

00:21:11:17 - 00:21:38:23
Priya Nalkur
Yeah. When. So when we feel safe one we can stumble. And when we you know, all of that be it the ability to experiment, to fail, to make mistakes is what a psychological safe environment enables you to do. But we only do that when we feel like we we can be accepted when we're in an environment where we belong, right there many places in my life.

00:21:38:23 - 00:21:58:19
Priya Nalkur
And probably you too, Kevin. Like, we can have a whole conversation about this many places in my life where I'm not prepared to stumble. Like, those are places where I'm not. I don't feel that level of safety or inclusion, where I'm going to still be valued and accepted for who I am, even though I made a mistake.

00:21:58:21 - 00:22:23:11
Kevin Eikenberry
Yeah, I think that's right. so there are I mentioned this to you, before we went live, that, some of the chapter titles to me are brilliant. And, so everybody we were talking with Priya. Now clear the the author of Stumbling Toward Inclusion, finding Grace in an imperfect, in imperfect leadership, every word. And that is important.

00:22:23:13 - 00:22:45:08
Kevin Eikenberry
so but most of the chapters, everybody are short, two, three, four pages, almost like many essays in some ways, that may not be where they're intended, but that's sort of how I took them. And what I want to do, as we sort of start to move toward, towards the finish is I'm just going to, give a couple of the titles of the chapters and just let you riff on that idea.

00:22:45:08 - 00:23:01:16
Kevin Eikenberry
I don't want you to give us a chapter summary about that idea. There were a couple things that were really, impactful for me. and I just want to put those out in front of you. The probably the thing I will remember the most about the book.

00:23:01:18 - 00:23:02:22
Priya Nalkur
What a cool game.

00:23:02:23 - 00:23:06:02
Kevin Eikenberry
Headwind and tailwinds.

00:23:06:04 - 00:23:06:19
Priya Nalkur
Yeah, well, this.

00:23:06:19 - 00:23:30:17
Kevin Eikenberry
Is not by the way, you're talking about diversity and inclusion. Yeah. Old white man and the young brown woman I'll just say it like so. Yeah we got sort of two. We got difference here right. Yeah. On multiple levels. And this phrase which if I remember right, isn't actually your phrase but you know, into it. Yeah. Talk to us about this because for me this was a really useful way to think about it.

00:23:30:17 - 00:24:08:20
Priya Nalkur
So good. Right I love this I love it too. It's not my phrase. so I, I got this from Dolly Chuck's book. The person you Mean to be fantastic book. And the reason this language works so well is because it's not charged. It's very neutral language, and it's a metaphor that we all understand. For example, if I'm flying from Austin, Texas to Boston and I happen to have a headwind that day and the on the plane is like facing a headwind, I'm going to get there like it's going to take longer to get there, by no fault of the pilot or me or anyone else.

00:24:08:22 - 00:24:10:12
Kevin Eikenberry
We can still get there.

00:24:10:16 - 00:24:32:03
Priya Nalkur
We'll get there harder. It's going to be more effort, more fuel and more time. But if I have a tailwind, the wind at my back and we've all experienced this like walking up a hill or walking along a beach, we have a tailwind. We feel like we we're freer. We have an advantage that was unearned. And we get to Boston maybe one hour earlier.

00:24:32:03 - 00:24:53:19
Priya Nalkur
Now I have all this free time. How lovely. And I didn't ask for it. I didn't make it happen. It just kind of got it. The conditions were right for me to get an advantage. And so like that, some of our social identities represent headwinds and tailwinds, and those are defined by the systems, social systems we we operate in by no fault of our own.

00:24:53:19 - 00:25:00:03
Priya Nalkur
And we can't redefine them either. But once we know them, we can work with them and we can leverage them.

00:25:00:05 - 00:25:05:00
Kevin Eikenberry
That's the key part. Recognizing that it is a is half, not all.

00:25:05:02 - 00:25:05:13
Priya Nalkur
Yeah.

00:25:05:15 - 00:25:15:17
Kevin Eikenberry
The battle another one of the one of another one of the chapter titles, by the way, she has no idea what I'm going to say. lowering the waterline.

00:25:15:19 - 00:25:38:05
Priya Nalkur
Oh, yeah. Isn't this so great? Lowering the water. Also, not my idea. So this came from a course I took on deep democracy co resolve. But I use this, and I have definitely expanded my understanding of lower the waterline. What it means is between you and you and I right now, Kevin, like, we're having this nice conversation. I guess we're having fun, but I, I certainly I.

00:25:38:06 - 00:25:39:20
Kevin Eikenberry
Don't know if you are I am.

00:25:39:22 - 00:25:58:21
Priya Nalkur
Okay so great. So what we just did was lower the waterline, right. Like we we had an assumption, but we didn't name it. And like that there's all kinds of assumptions between us. Right. Like what got you interested in this book and what did you do this morning and how did you prepare and where are you really sitting and, and all that stuff that we're not talking about.

00:25:58:23 - 00:26:23:22
Priya Nalkur
And if we go lower and lower and lower, what we're going to do is we're going to come up against something that is going to be real uncomfortable for us to talk about, but that is the gem of our conversation, because in that is some shared wisdom that we could generate by being in dialog with each other and maybe debating it out with an understanding that nobody has a monopoly on the truth in our relationship with each other, matters.

00:26:24:00 - 00:26:34:03
Priya Nalkur
And so I always want leaders to, like, seek to go below the waterline, because that's where the richness of your humanity and your relationship really live.

00:26:34:05 - 00:26:38:18
Kevin Eikenberry
I could play this game with probably five more chapter titles, but we don't have time. I love.

00:26:38:18 - 00:26:40:07
Priya Nalkur
This game.

00:26:40:09 - 00:27:00:16
Kevin Eikenberry
so what I do, I want to ask a final question. There's obviously so much we could talk about. There's a number of loops that we open that we could try to close. Yeah, but is there is there anything that you really wish I would have asked or that we would have talked about, that we didn't?

00:27:00:17 - 00:27:24:22
Priya Nalkur
Are you asked all the big questions in the book? You know, like this is about embracing failure and moving forward in the world of inclusive leadership. And so it's not just a book about facing your fear. It's really about asking yourself, why are you afraid? What will it look like when you stumble, and how can you get back up and repair when you do?

00:27:25:00 - 00:27:31:00
Kevin Eikenberry
There are some people who are watching this who are afraid of that word. Inclusive. Inclusive.

00:27:31:01 - 00:27:32:03
Priya Nalkur
Yes, I know you are.

00:27:32:03 - 00:27:50:06
Kevin Eikenberry
Afraid of justice, equity, diversity and inclusion and I will boldly say that if this is making you in some way, even if you wouldn't say it out loud, squeamish.

00:27:50:08 - 00:28:01:22
Kevin Eikenberry
Scared. Guilty. Then you really need to read the book, and you will find hope and grace and forgiveness and enlightenment.

00:28:02:00 - 00:28:02:22
Priya Nalkur


00:28:03:00 - 00:28:09:12
Kevin Eikenberry
There you go. so I'm going to shift gears. I promise you to save that to the very end. But there it was. so you really.

00:28:09:12 - 00:28:11:22
Priya Nalkur
Did drop the mic there. That was really good. That was.

00:28:11:22 - 00:28:16:00
Kevin Eikenberry
Good. Well, well, well, we'll let you you can use that as a testimonial. How about that?

00:28:16:01 - 00:28:16:19
Priya Nalkur
Okay.

00:28:16:20 - 00:28:31:05
Kevin Eikenberry
And go clip. We'll clip that. You can click this out and go over there. let's listen everybody. We'll let Priya say a little bit more about how to get, connect with her and all that in a second. But a couple other questions I like to ask people. so, Priya, what do you do for fun?

00:28:31:06 - 00:28:36:12
Priya Nalkur
I hike with my kids and we dance in the kitchen, and we do this, like, almost every day. That's what I do for fun.

00:28:36:14 - 00:28:41:16
Kevin Eikenberry
No one has ever, in 440 episodes, said that they dance in the kitchen with their kids.

00:28:41:16 - 00:28:43:04
Priya Nalkur
Really? Oh, it's nothing to.

00:28:43:04 - 00:28:54:05
Kevin Eikenberry
No one does it. I'm saying no one mentioned that in that moment. yeah. It's the first on the show. now, the question that I ask everybody is, what are you what are you reading? Or what's something you've read recently? Priya?

00:28:54:09 - 00:29:12:22
Priya Nalkur
I am reading Private Equity by Katherine Sun. It's a memoir about her journey in private equity and seeking equity for herself. It's fantastic. It's brilliant. It's so, so, so good. And it's like, very confronting. It's a beautiful book.

00:29:13:00 - 00:29:33:09
Kevin Eikenberry
Private equity, that'll be in the show notes as well of course, will be stumbling towards inclusion. so so you can check the show notes wherever you're watching or listening to this podcast to get that. But where do you want to point people? Like where do you where can people learn more about you, Priya, about the book, about your work, like, I'll hold the book up and you can tell people where they can find you.

00:29:33:09 - 00:29:55:14
Priya Nalkur
And it they basically go to my website Priya. now.com, there's all kinds of free tools, right. Like you can do an assessment to see what your personal stumbling blocks are. It's free. You can get you can order a copy of the book. You can watch all kinds of, you know, videos and read, journals. articles that I've written about this.

00:29:55:14 - 00:30:02:19
Priya Nalkur
If you want to go further, there's excerpts on the book, there's audios. If you're not ready to buy it, listen to the audio. It's all there.

00:30:02:21 - 00:30:20:10
Kevin Eikenberry
All right, I hope you'll do that. And so now, Priya, thank you so much for being here. But before we go, I have a question for all of you who are watching or listening, whether it's now with us live or whether it's later, it's the question I ask every week. Now. What? What are you going to do with this?

00:30:20:11 - 00:30:41:16
Kevin Eikenberry
maybe, you had some things to think about from this conversation. Maybe, you want to think more about what is learning and contribution mean to you? Maybe, you want to think more about safety. Maybe you want to think more about your interpersonal experience with inclusion. I'm just sharing a couple of things that I wrote down.

00:30:41:17 - 00:31:05:23
Kevin Eikenberry
what I wrote doesn't matter. What matters is what you got that you're going to act on because unless you act on it, sort of. What's the point? I mean, Priya said she and I had fun, which we did, and I hope you did too. But what I really hope, I think what we both really hope is that this can be a meaningful use of 30 minutes of your time, and that will only truly be the case if you take some action.

00:31:06:01 - 00:31:13:01
Kevin Eikenberry
Priya, thank you so much for being here. It was such, such a pleasure and an honor to spend the last 30 minutes with you.

00:31:13:03 - 00:31:17:06
Priya Nalkur
Thank you. Kevin, I really appreciate it. This started my day off just right.

00:31:17:08 - 00:31:37:02
Kevin Eikenberry
Well, I love that. So, all of you. I don't know when you're listening to this. Whether it's the morning, in the afternoon, the evening. I hope you're not sleeping. but what I do hope is that if you found this useful, that you will share it with somebody else. And that if you. This is the first time you're with us, that you'll come back and know that wherever you listen to your podcasts, you can find it the Remarkable Leadership Podcast.

00:31:37:02 - 00:31:47:10
Kevin Eikenberry
Look for it. Find it. Subscribe. Share it. You know what to do. Just do it and come back next week for another episode of the Remarkable Leadership Podcast.