The Remarkable Leadership Podcast

00:00:08:10 - 00:00:30:05
Kevin Eikenberry
Imposter syndrome. Maybe you have it. If you have a team, likely at least some of them are affected by it as well. This is an important personal conversation, but as a leader, it's an important interpersonal and team conversation as well. We are here today to talk more about the imposter syndrome in ways you might not have considered before.

00:00:30:10 - 00:01:01:03
Kevin Eikenberry
Welcome to another episode of the Remarkable Leadership Podcast, where we are helping leaders like you grow personally and professionally to lead more effectively and make a bigger, positive difference for their teams, organizations and the world. If you are listening to this podcast, you could be here live in the future. For episodes on your favorite social media platform. You can find out when those episodes are taking place, so you can get them on your calendar and therefore learn the information sooner.

00:01:01:09 - 00:01:25:01
Kevin Eikenberry
Two of the places that this shows that these, shown live are on pod excuse me, are on, LinkedIn and Facebook. So those are places you can go and get connected with us. Go to our Facebook group, at remarkable podcast.com/facebook or our LinkedIn group at remarkable podcast.com/linked in. Today's episode is brought to you by my latest book, Flexible Leadership.

00:01:25:02 - 00:01:43:18
Kevin Eikenberry
Navigate Uncertainty and Lead with Confidence. It's time to realize that styles can get in our way, and that following our strengths might not always be the best approach in a world more complex and uncertain than ever. Leaders need a new perspective and a new set of tools to help them create the great results that their organizations and team members need.

00:01:43:20 - 00:02:09:17
Kevin Eikenberry
And that's what flexible leadership provide you. Learn more and order your copy today at remarkable podcast.com/flexible. Today's guest. Let me bring her in first and I'll tell you a little bit about her. Her name is Eva O'Brien. She founded Happier at Work in 2019 because she witnessed firsthand the impact of poor workplace culture on both organizations and employees.

00:02:09:19 - 00:02:37:03
Kevin Eikenberry
Using her research based Happier at Work framework, she partners with Global talent and HR leaders to cultivate human centered workplace cultures that prioritize well-being, career growth, and meaningful impact. She supports employees to build their confidence, gain greater career clarity, and reach their full potential while driving increased engagement and retention in organizations. Her clients, her hire her to speak, train, and deliver corporate programs.

00:02:37:05 - 00:03:00:17
Kevin Eikenberry
She's worked with global organizations like meta, MSD, Sienna, AbbVie, Logitech, and HubSpot. Her award winning podcast, Happier at Work, has a global audience of 125,000 people, and today she's on the other side of the mic. Today, she's on the side of the mic where she's answering, not asking if so, thanks for being here.

00:03:00:19 - 00:03:05:08
Aoife O'Brien
Thank you so much, Gavin. Can I just say what an honor it is? And thank you for the wonderful introduction.

00:03:05:10 - 00:03:35:00
Kevin Eikenberry
You are welcome. Well, most of it's what you wrote, except for the stuff that I added. So anyway, it is my pleasure to have you. And I'd really like to start, because your intro starts in 2019, and I can look at you and I think you're older than six. So why don't we sort of start with a little bit of the what leads you what led you to that conclusion that, we've got we've got some happy issues, that maybe we need to work with and some organizational well-being stuff.

00:03:35:00 - 00:03:38:19
Kevin Eikenberry
So, like a little bit about your journey that leads you to here?

00:03:38:21 - 00:04:03:03
Aoife O'Brien
Absolutely. I definitely, older than six, that's for sure. I had an almost 20 year career in what the, in the US is called a CPG or consumer packaged goods, what we call in Europe, fast moving consumer goods, FMcG. But on the market research side of that, and I had a really fulfilling career. I really, really enjoyed this.

00:04:03:20 - 00:04:27:11
Aoife O'Brien
I, I was in various different organizations where I felt I was fulfilling my potential and I was really thriving, but I had a couple of specific, encounters at work, let's say, in a couple of different organizations. And it just made me think that maybe work isn't what I thought it was. And there's an opportunity for us to improve.

00:04:27:11 - 00:04:57:07
Aoife O'Brien
There's an opportunity for us to do better than what we're doing currently. And that kind of led me to the to where I am today. So in one organization, I felt like it was a toxic organization in general. I had a really high turnover in another situation. It was more that I wasn't thriving in that environment. And I went on and I did a master's in organizational behavior, and I asked those hard questions, and I wanted to figure out what's going on here.

00:04:57:09 - 00:05:21:10
Aoife O'Brien
How can I help leaders to create environments where people feel like they're really fulfilled? And so I asked those hard questions. I came up with my Happier at Work framework, and I went on and I created a, I went on and, created my framework and I set up my business at work on my podcast at work as well.

00:05:21:12 - 00:05:22:23
Kevin Eikenberry
And here we are.

00:05:23:01 - 00:05:26:19
Aoife O'Brien
Around six, around six years later, here we are.

00:05:27:07 - 00:05:48:14
Kevin Eikenberry
So there's the six years. See, now we got the six years in there. So, you know, it's interesting because I've certainly seen some of the same things that you have. I've, I spent I spent less time in corporate America than than I have since then, but but obviously, like you continue to work with organizations and seeing a lot of those same things as time goes on.

00:05:48:23 - 00:06:12:02
Kevin Eikenberry
So people might be wondering at this point, okay, this is all really interesting. Happier at work and all that except. Kevin, did you bait and switch me? Like I thought we were going to talk about the imposter syndrome? So I'm curious because when we decided we were going to have this conversation, you gave me several topics that we could talk about, and I said, let's talk about the imposter syndrome.

00:06:12:02 - 00:06:28:12
Kevin Eikenberry
We haven't done anything on that on the podcast in a while, and we'll make sure that the other ones are in the show. Notes for you, everybody. But like, what's the connection or why imposter syndrome work, which doesn't necessarily immediately see feel like it goes with happier at work.

00:06:28:14 - 00:06:55:17
Aoife O'Brien
Yeah. Interesting question. So I'll start with the how did I get to talking about that to begin with. And then I'll talk about the relationship between the two. So I was invited to take part in, in a article. So someone asked me for like, what's your experience of imposter syndrome? And I shared my experience and didn't really think anything of it, but really got me thinking of my, you know, as like, I've experienced imposter syndrome.

00:06:55:17 - 00:07:21:09
Aoife O'Brien
Here's where I think I've experienced imposter syndrome, put it out into the ether, and I didn't really think about it. And about three months later, I was in a national newspaper with my photo, with my experience of imposter syndrome and those experiences, I didn't know what imposter syndrome was when I first experienced this. It was a friend who actually introduced me to the topic.

00:07:21:11 - 00:07:42:10
Aoife O'Brien
I had recently been promoted to the senior leadership team, and I was, I was recently promoted to senior leadership team, and I had a conversation with her saying, oh, they didn't have any other choice, or I just got lucky, or there was all of these things going on in my head. And she said, it sounds like you have imposter syndrome.

00:07:43:10 - 00:08:08:09
Aoife O'Brien
And since then I've realized that I've had experience prior to that, and I've also experienced since then as well. So when I asked for more money than I thought I deserved, quote unquote, and I kind of felt like they're going to find me out. I don't deserve this amount of money. When I first started in business, I mean, you're surrounded by all of these successful people or you're you're perceiving them as hugely successful.

00:08:08:10 - 00:08:37:00
Aoife O'Brien
You're comparing yourself to those other people. So once I was featured in this, this, national newspaper, I was invited then to speak about imposter syndrome on a regular basis. And my own my own background is in research and analytics. So I decided I wanted to start researching this area as well. So I've carried out a couple of different research projects into imposter syndrome, which is how I came up with my five imposter identities.

00:08:37:02 - 00:08:43:02
Aoife O'Brien
Now, coming back to your other question was about how does that relate to happiness at work or happier at work?

00:08:43:02 - 00:09:06:14
Kevin Eikenberry
Or is it just a happy coincidence that you get featured in a national newspaper? Right? But before you go to that second part, I want to make a comment for everyone listening or watching. And that is that, one of the thing that things that fascinate fascinates me about talking about imposter syndrome is it's one of those things that I think everybody has heard the phrase, and I think sometimes people just sort of nod, oh, yeah, yeah.

00:09:06:19 - 00:09:25:02
Kevin Eikenberry
But I don't think people really know. And I think you've sort of told us now what it really is. I mean, have you say a little bit more about that in a second? Yeah. But let me that's one of the reasons I wanted for us to talk about this topic, because I think, people aren't always aware, oh, I know what that feels like, but I didn't know there was a name.

00:09:25:02 - 00:09:25:15
Kevin Eikenberry
Right.

00:09:25:17 - 00:09:26:06
Aoife O'Brien
So.

00:09:26:08 - 00:09:33:10
Kevin Eikenberry
So now give us the connection. I kind of wanted to to to jump in, to tell a little bit more about the connection and then we'll we'll continue.

00:09:33:12 - 00:09:54:18
Aoife O'Brien
Yeah. Of course. Yeah. So for me, I do kind of struggle ongoing of how does this relate to the bigger picture of happier at work and how do I kind of places and where does it go? I it's something that I struggle with still with like how does this fit all together? But actually when it's I think it's strong.

00:09:54:20 - 00:10:20:02
Aoife O'Brien
I, I think I struggle with this because it's such a big part of my business, but actually it's a small part of happier at work in general. So if I think about my pillars specifically, there's one pillar around needs satisfaction at work. And how do we make sure the people's needs are satisfied? One of those needs is a need for competence or feeling capable of doing your job.

00:10:20:04 - 00:10:37:01
Aoife O'Brien
And actually, if we don't feel capable of doing our job, we feel like total Imposter is, you know, it is that feeling of I'm going to be found out as opposed to someone's going to help me on the shoulder, knock on the door, say, this was all a terrible mistake. You were.

00:10:37:03 - 00:10:38:00
Kevin Eikenberry
My nightmare.

00:10:38:01 - 00:10:40:09
Aoife O'Brien
Not exactly.

00:10:40:11 - 00:10:58:09
Kevin Eikenberry
My nightmare is that I no longer am talking about. I'm dreaming about missing the final exam, which I. It seems like everyone has had that one. I'm having the exam. I never went to class all semester, like. So we just replaced it with a different one. Right. So what I. But you've hinted at it now? Of course.

00:10:58:21 - 00:11:05:01
Kevin Eikenberry
Info. But what? How would you define this term of imposter syndrome before we dive in?

00:11:05:03 - 00:11:26:08
Aoife O'Brien
Yeah. So for me, it's there's kind of three separate areas to as it's and it's beyond just self-doubt. I think sometimes people confuse it with self-doubt. And you're so right. Like once I started speaking openly about it, so many people said to me, I've felt like that for a long time. I didn't know it was just me, and I didn't know there was a name for it I didn't know was a thing.

00:11:26:10 - 00:11:52:05
Aoife O'Brien
So for me, there's the two areas. There's the I feel like a fraud and I'm going to get found out like that's area number one. Then there's the I just got lucky. And then there's the other part of other people think I know much more than I do. So perhaps you got a promotion and you're you're feeling a little bit like, oh, well, they must have seen something in me that I don't have.

00:11:52:07 - 00:11:59:14
Aoife O'Brien
And therefore you feel a little bit out of your depth. So those are the three areas where it really, really shows up.

00:11:59:16 - 00:12:25:14
Kevin Eikenberry
So, I said in the open before I brought you in that I wanted us to think about this as a personal thing, like how is how, how or when has this impacted me? But as a leader on a show called the Remarkable Leadership Podcast, I think we need to be thinking about this in terms of how who on my team might be suffering with this and how can I help them.

00:12:25:14 - 00:12:37:20
Kevin Eikenberry
I have certainly I certainly have some thoughts about that. But I'm I want to make sure as we go through this, I wanted to say it again, for all of you listening, that there are two hats you can be wearing here. I don't want you to just take off the person like, oh, I'm just gonna talk about other things, about other people.

00:12:37:23 - 00:12:56:22
Kevin Eikenberry
But I also don't want you to get so into this for yourself that you aren't realizing that the ripples that you could cause, not only by having it, but recognize, but being able to recognize it in others as well. Yeah. How is it different? From just being confident?

00:12:57:00 - 00:13:19:09
Aoife O'Brien
Like not having imposter syndrome? Is that what you mean? For me, confidence is something that we can project from the out, from externally. So you can look at me and say, wow, she's so confident. But actually internally. And I always like to liken this to the swan. So externally I'm composed and I'm relaxed, but underneath the surface maybe I'm paddling a lot.

00:13:19:14 - 00:13:45:06
Aoife O'Brien
So from the outside we can't tell whether someone has imposter syndrome. They may be presenting us someone who's very confident. Then internally, the difference between feeling this great sense of confidence and feeling imposter syndrome. I think for me that confidence comes from taking action. And this is something that I talk about as part of my strategy. It's about taking action to build that confidence.

00:13:45:11 - 00:14:02:05
Aoife O'Brien
Your confidence is not going to come from you sitting and planning and deciding and not actually doing anything about it. You have to you have to have to take action in order to build up that confidence. And that's where that actually comes from.

00:14:02:07 - 00:14:19:14
Kevin Eikenberry
So you said, hey, I found out I had it, I found out I had I recognize this in myself before you talk to other people and they say, well, yeah, I've experienced that. So how broad is the impact here? Like so this is a kind of a two part question. Like how many people in their career will feel it?

00:14:19:18 - 00:14:31:01
Kevin Eikenberry
And then what's the impact? So like how big of a deal is it. And then if we have it, how big of a deal is it for us? You know, when we're experiencing it.

00:14:31:01 - 00:14:31:21
Aoife O'Brien
So yeah.

00:14:31:21 - 00:14:32:18
Kevin Eikenberry
What impact for.

00:14:32:21 - 00:15:00:19
Aoife O'Brien
It. Yeah. So from the research that I've done, there are 90% of people at any stage in their career who will experience imposter syndrome. I do wonder about that 10%. I'm like, who are these 10% who have never experienced imposter syndrome? All of that 90. It's around 5050. So like 45% currently experiencing it and 45% have experienced it in the past.

00:15:01:01 - 00:15:23:03
Aoife O'Brien
But it's likely that it will come back again. You know, if they get triggered, if they got it promotion, they got a new job, they start in a new team. If they take some time off work, there's all of these things that can trigger our imposter syndrome. So that is how prevalent it is. And I think it's reassuring to know in a way that so many other people experience this as well.

00:15:23:05 - 00:15:24:12
Aoife O'Brien
And the other.

00:15:24:14 - 00:15:44:20
Kevin Eikenberry
Thing that other people are uncertain. So here's here's my point to what, was just said. And that is everybody, if you think about your team, odds are the researcher has spoken that half of the people on your team are experiencing it right now. In round numbers right now, you have two people you might have you might have both, you might have none.

00:15:44:23 - 00:15:52:03
Kevin Eikenberry
But half of your folks experiencing this right now, yeah, it's a big deal.

00:15:52:05 - 00:15:56:01
Aoife O'Brien
And nearly all will be able to relate to it in some way.

00:15:56:06 - 00:16:14:08
Kevin Eikenberry
Right? Right. So what are you mentioned earlier. Barriers and triggers. Yeah. Let's talk about barriers. What are the barriers and what are the triggers as it relates to imposter syndrome.

00:16:14:09 - 00:16:40:00
Aoife O'Brien
Yeah. So sometimes it can present to us in a way that it holds us back from taking action or holds us back from doing something. So you can think about this as, I want to go for a promotion, I want to look for a new job, but actually there's something getting in the way and telling you that you don't deserve is that you're not good enough, whatever it might be.

00:16:40:02 - 00:17:07:11
Aoife O'Brien
And then the triggers are when you're already in that position. So I, I've just been promoted or I, I'm about to go on stage and speak about this topic that can be really triggering or it can be a trigger if you've returned from a leave of absence from work, whether that is maternity leave. In my case, I traveled for over a year, and then I came back to the workplace and they didn't realize it at the time.

00:17:07:16 - 00:17:35:21
Aoife O'Brien
But that was a huge trigger for me as well. You think that everyone has moved on? The technology certainly has moved on, even in that short space of time. So it can happen either as a barrier so it's stopping you from taking action, or you can be triggered by something in particular. So a promotion, a new job, time, time out of work, trying anything new really is a huge trigger.

00:17:35:23 - 00:17:59:13
Kevin Eikenberry
And so I think that's useful. Again, doesn't mean we're going to know if an individual in our team is having these feelings, but it's useful for us to realize that there's plausible cause in the kinds of triggers you just described, where we might want to be watching our folks paying a little bit more attention, be a little more observant, ask maybe some slightly different questions.

00:17:59:15 - 00:18:05:13
Kevin Eikenberry
Be, in coaching with them, a little more encouraging all those sorts of things. Anything you to add to that?

00:18:05:15 - 00:18:43:10
Aoife O'Brien
Yeah. No, absolutely. And I think you touched on the point earlier, Kevin, this idea that we can't tell from the outside who experiences it and we need to also address not just ourselves and our own behaviors, especially if we're experiencing imposter syndrome and the impact that that may have on the team. But we also need to be watching out for our team and some of the things that maybe you can tell, aside from the triggers that we mentioned, maybe if someone is working a lot, if they're putting in a lot of hours, or if they're particularly quiet in a meeting, or if they get quite defensive, if you challenge something and they get quite defensive

00:18:43:10 - 00:19:09:20
Aoife O'Brien
about it, that can be a real sign of it as well. But it's not as if we're walking around with, you know, with a signal that says, I have imposter syndrome and even if you asked about it, it's probably not something you want to admit to either. So there are some ways that we can deal with that by giving proactive, positive feedback to reassure people that they're in the right role, that they're doing the right thing, that they were selected for a reason.

00:19:09:20 - 00:19:10:23
Aoife O'Brien
And, you know.

00:19:10:23 - 00:19:12:11
Kevin Eikenberry
Doing great work and they're.

00:19:12:14 - 00:19:15:10
Aoife O'Brien
Doing good work. Yes. Yeah.

00:19:15:14 - 00:19:34:23
Kevin Eikenberry
Awesome. So Clare sent a comment in, and she says, I deliver. I am remarkable training is a part of my role at Amazon, and I so often I hear that I'm just or I was just doing my job. People downplay their skills and achievements. That's a clue. That's not the imposter syndrome isn't the only reason you might hear that, but it's certainly a clue.

00:19:34:23 - 00:19:35:12
Kevin Eikenberry
Would you agree?

00:19:35:13 - 00:20:01:16
Aoife O'Brien
Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. And I've taken that word just from my vocabulary. I know this when I put it say that I'm just following up or I'm just doing this. I've caught myself and I'm like, okay, I'm, I'm saying I wanted to follow up as opposed to I just wanted to follow up. So I love that as a like here's an example of how this actually could potentially come up.

00:20:01:18 - 00:20:17:11
Kevin Eikenberry
So, Clare, if you're still here, you may have noticed, you may notice that I'm wearing a green band. And if you've watched before, you may have seen me wearing this band before. I wear one every day. My wife will not let me wear it, with a tuxedo. I'm not sure why, but anyway, this band. Claire, this is for you.

00:20:17:12 - 00:20:40:00
Kevin Eikenberry
This band says I am remarkable on it because, remarkable as a part of our brand. I wrote a book called Remarkable Leadership. So, Claire, send me a LinkedIn note, and we'll see how we. And we can have a conversation. See how I can get you some bands for your training. How about that? Gary sends a note saying, how how the mind can trigger quite debilitating self-belief.

00:20:40:00 - 00:20:55:14
Kevin Eikenberry
So I, I, I referred to is keep your hands firmly on the helm of thought by James Allen. Great book by James Allen. Obviously. And you're getting some feedback from Gary as well. If any, anything you want to say about about Gary's comment before we move on?

00:20:56:04 - 00:21:03:04
Aoife O'Brien
I haven't heard that, but I'm certainly going to I'm going to check that out. Look into it. It's really interesting. Gross. Thank you. Thanks, Gary.

00:21:03:06 - 00:21:23:21
Kevin Eikenberry
All right. And Claire was still here. So you have your you have your task, Claire okay. So, when we decided had this conversation, the one thing I really wanted to make sure that we talked about were the your five identities. So your research, I mean, a lot of people talk about imposter syndrome, and it's all good.

00:21:24:00 - 00:21:47:01
Kevin Eikenberry
What I think is unique about what you've done is you've identified these identities. I have I have some, challenges with the idea of identities that we might get to, but I do want you to be able to just very quickly. And I've got them all. I can put them on the screen just very quickly tell everybody what these five are and give them a sentence or two so they can start to think, well, I have some of these feelings.

00:21:47:01 - 00:22:09:21
Kevin Eikenberry
Maybe what I think you'll find everybody as if it is already said is that is that if you will hear yourself in one of these, maybe not now, and maybe not for a long drawn out period in your life, but you will. You will have you will recognize some of these as we go. So I'll just let you lay them out and I'll for those watching, I'll put them on the screen as you go.

00:22:09:23 - 00:22:35:02
Aoife O'Brien
Brilliant. Thank you. And what I do, the other thing I'd love to add to that is I'm continuing to research in this area. So, you know, I, I love doing all of this research into imposter syndrome and trying to get to the heart of it, because oftentimes people identify more than just one of those identities. And I would love to get to a stage where it's like, I'm just this one thing versus another, and maybe that's something that we can dive into when we're talking about this notion.

00:22:35:02 - 00:22:36:09
Aoife O'Brien
And a second.

00:22:36:11 - 00:22:41:11
Kevin Eikenberry
Just remember, human beings are pretty darn complex. I know.

00:22:41:12 - 00:22:44:03
Aoife O'Brien
I know, flavors must being around there.

00:22:44:03 - 00:22:45:11
Kevin Eikenberry
I'm just saying.

00:22:46:00 - 00:23:14:18
Aoife O'Brien
So the first imposter identity is the overachiever. They say someone, maybe they call themselves an overachiever. Maybe they are, overworking. Maybe they're putting in long hours. They're a perfectionist. They want to make sure that everything gets right. They don't like to get help. They're doing everything themselves. So that is the overachiever is someone who really is able to achieve and succeed in whatever it is that they're doing.

00:23:14:20 - 00:23:38:14
Aoife O'Brien
They want to do it really, really well, and they're very reluctant to get outside support to be able to do that. Then we have the Comparer. The Comparer is the kind of person who, as is, you know, kind of obvious from the title. They compare themselves to other people. And oftentimes this is comparing ourselves on favorably to other people.

00:23:38:14 - 00:24:00:13
Aoife O'Brien
So we're looking at Kevin, we're saying, wow, Kevin has this amazing successful podcast. How's he doing that? And I'm never going to get anywhere. And, you know, it's kind of feeling sorry for yourself, but also comparing yourself unfavorably to other people. But you're also comparing yourself to what you see on the outside as opposed to what you see on the inside.

00:24:00:15 - 00:24:13:21
Aoife O'Brien
And you're not necessarily comparing the things that you're equal to. So you're just perceiving all of the good things and other people. Would I necessarily acknowledging the brilliant things that you can do as well? Then we have the people pleaser. I want.

00:24:13:21 - 00:24:39:08
Kevin Eikenberry
To stop. Yes. Because, I, I think that comparing ourselves is natural as humans. I think it's really important that you all hear what we're saying here, and that is that not just that you compared, but then you use that to create self-doubt for yourself. So, like the fact that you might compare, like, I don't think there's a human that doesn't.

00:24:39:13 - 00:24:53:21
Kevin Eikenberry
The question then is, first of all, it's a really good point of I'm comparing what I see on the outside, which might not be what's inside. And I bet all of us have met someone and gotten know someone better. Like, yeah, pay no attention to what's actually behind the curtain, because what's back there and there's a little more mess.

00:24:54:00 - 00:25:15:21
Kevin Eikenberry
It's a little messy. You're back there than it looks on the surface. And so yes, I think that's useful. And I just wanted to stop there because, again, all of us are going to see a little bit of ourselves in these things. They don't. The fact that you compare doesn't necessarily mean you have imposter syndrome. However, it absolutely can be one of the one of the ways that you do have imposter syndrome.

00:25:15:21 - 00:25:20:12
Aoife O'Brien
Yes, yes, that's exactly a brilliant way to articulate us.

00:25:20:14 - 00:25:21:19
Kevin Eikenberry
Number three.

00:25:21:21 - 00:25:45:19
Aoife O'Brien
Number three, the people pleaser. So again, as is maybe understood from the title, this is someone who really wants to please other people. And this person puts their needs last. So they want to make sure that everyone else is happy. This is the kind of person maybe you have poor boundaries or no boundaries, or maybe you don't even know what boundaries are.

00:25:45:19 - 00:26:02:18
Aoife O'Brien
That was definitely me before I learned that word. So you want to make sure that everyone else is happy? You're saying yes when actually you really want to say no. Or maybe you don't even realize that you want to say no, but you're saying yes when you should be saying, you know, because you've taken on so much already.

00:26:02:22 - 00:26:14:13
Aoife O'Brien
You just want to make sure that everyone else is happy at the expense of your self, your health, your work quality, all of those kinds of things so that it is the people pleaser. Then we house number four.

00:26:14:15 - 00:26:43:09
Kevin Eikenberry
This one's especially important for leaders. And I'll tell you why. Well, all of them can be here's here's my take on this one everybody. If you have that, if you have that people pleasing thing and it's and it's because I'm trying to overcompensate in a way so people can't find out what's what I'm thinking behind there. The challenge with that is that as a leader, if it leads you to burnout, it's important to realize that you can't give what you don't have.

00:26:43:12 - 00:27:07:06
Kevin Eikenberry
So if you if one of these is taking you to a place, the same thing can be said about the overachiever or, that if it's driving you to work harder, work longer, not say no. At some point your mental fitness is going to falter. And at that point, you can't serve people the way you're trying to serve them, like you stop yourself from even having that opportunity.

00:27:07:08 - 00:27:11:20
Kevin Eikenberry
And yeah, it's really important. And I think that happened a lot. Yeah. For leaders such a.

00:27:11:20 - 00:27:32:18
Aoife O'Brien
Good coach, a good point. And I think building on that, someone challenged me a few years ago and said, why does that have to be suffering from imposter syndrome? Why can't it just be experiencing imposter syndrome? And I said, well, that's a really good question. But oftentimes when we have imposter syndrome, we are suffering. And so to, you know, back to your point.

00:27:32:18 - 00:27:53:23
Aoife O'Brien
If you're saying yes, when you should be saying no, if you're taking on more than you should, if you're overworking to the point of burnout, then that's suffering. You know, that's going to cause a big issue. So I think it's important, I think, to to highlight that, that it doesn't have to be suffering. But oftentimes that is when we take on more than we can actually handle.

00:27:55:04 - 00:28:22:02
Aoife O'Brien
So number four then is the procrastinator. This is the kind of person who puts off tasks, puts off decisions. Maybe they leave things till the very last minute. Maybe when they have left something till the last minute and it all goes horribly wrong. They blame the fact that they're an imposter. But if things go incredibly well for them, even though they've left things for the last minute, they'll put it down to look.

00:28:22:04 - 00:28:46:09
Aoife O'Brien
I was just lucky. It's not down to their talent or their skill at all. So this can be positive in some ways, because it's the kind of people who can work under pressure, but it can be negative as well if things, you know, things are not getting done, if things are slipping, but also if you're procrastinating on making decisions or just not making decisions at all, then that can kind of cause issues as well.

00:28:46:11 - 00:29:10:13
Aoife O'Brien
And then the last one is the success giver and the success there. It's kind of a you might think, but who who would be afraid of success isn't success the thing that we all are aspiring to? Isn't that what we want, but the success fear can look at success as that's going to be additional work for me. I don't want to take on that additional work.

00:29:10:13 - 00:29:27:20
Aoife O'Brien
It's going to mean there are more eyes on me, and people will realize that I have no idea of what I'm doing. Therefore, I don't want to progress to the next level because people will find out that I'm a terrible fraud. You know, there's all of these things going on in our head, all of these reasons not to be successful.

00:29:27:20 - 00:29:44:23
Aoife O'Brien
And I use the term success loosely because I know people have different definitions of success as well. But typically, if you're trying to get to the next level or make any sort of move, we get in around heads and say, these are all the reasons that we can't necessarily do it.

00:29:45:01 - 00:30:01:11
Kevin Eikenberry
And oh, by the way, if, if I, you know, I feel I fear failure, but if I fear success, I'm fearing success because if it gets if that happens, then then there's going to be change. And, you know, maybe I really would. I'm like, at least at least I may not love where I'm at, but at least I know what it is exactly.

00:30:01:11 - 00:30:03:23
Aoife O'Brien
Better. That's helpful. You know. Isn't that what they say?

00:30:04:01 - 00:30:33:08
Kevin Eikenberry
Exactly. Right. So, our time, has gone quickly, which doesn't surprise me at all. I, I do want to have you talk a little bit about your very, I will say, at least simple to remember framework for overcoming it. It's abcde e e. And so, we could have spent our entire time on these five points, but we really I really want to give everyone a common understanding.

00:30:33:08 - 00:30:54:06
Kevin Eikenberry
And we'll let let you everybody know how you can get connected with you to learn more. But take a second and just tell us that abcde e like, okay, okay, I got it, I'm experiencing this. Or I have someone that I know that I, that I know is experiencing. We've had this conversation. How do I how do I help them get over it.

00:30:54:06 - 00:30:57:23
Kevin Eikenberry
You got five steps. So they start with ABCd and E. So why don't you go.

00:30:57:23 - 00:31:26:08
Aoife O'Brien
Yeah I, I deliberately made it so easy to remember, when I first started, you think about it, it was ABC. I've subsequently added the D and E as kind of bonuses, let's say. But A's is all about acknowledging it and very, you know, rightly, as you say, we acknowledge that it is imposter syndrome. We can acknowledge it by saying thank you for, you know, thank you for trying to protect me, because that's essentially what this trying to do.

00:31:26:13 - 00:31:43:13
Aoife O'Brien
We can acknowledge it by saying we have a choice as to whether we act on the information that we have. So, you know, who is the imposter is saying, you don't deserve this or you don't put yourself forward for that. It's trying to protect you and keep you safe. You can choose to act differently so acknowledge it and say thank you.

00:31:43:13 - 00:32:14:12
Aoife O'Brien
But actually I choose to do something different B than is all about building up our belief in ourselves. So it's all about how do we find that sense of belief. And some people find this relatively easy. I think a really great tip is if you collect feedback and store it somewhere that you can refer back to it, I know certainly, you know, once a year when I'm going through awards processes and I have to compile all of the feedback, then it's it's really great to have that to hand and to read it.

00:32:14:12 - 00:32:34:13
Aoife O'Brien
And you feel really good about yourself, and it helps you to elevate your belief. Now other ways that you can do that using coaching techniques, which I'm sure Kevin, you're familiar with, will be, you know, writing down, well, what are you what have you achieved in your life and what skills are required to achieve what you've achieved? Like, those are great ways to help build up your belief.

00:32:34:15 - 00:32:54:09
Aoife O'Brien
Another fantastic way is to surround yourself with people who believe in you as well, and ask those hard questions. Why was I chosen for this role? What do you think I do that other people can't do? Like all of these things? It's really important to help us to build up our beliefs and then see is about courageous action.

00:32:54:10 - 00:33:17:20
Aoife O'Brien
And the reason I talk about courageous action rather than just action, is because it requires courage to take action. When you don't necessarily feel confident, but by taking action, by taking those small steps, it allows us to build up our confidence. So pick one thing are you afraid to speak up in a meeting, for example, and share what's going on for you?

00:33:18:01 - 00:33:34:22
Aoife O'Brien
Pick one small thing. What is that one thing? Is it the actual act of speaking up? Is it having a conversation with someone prior to that meeting to say, I would like to speak up? It says, seeking out the agenda in advance so that you can prepare some notes, like what is that one thing that you need to do?

00:33:35:00 - 00:33:46:14
Aoife O'Brien
And then keep taking those small actions to build up the momentum and build up your confidence, because through those small wins, you're going to start feeling much more confident. So I would encourage.

00:33:46:16 - 00:33:48:22
Kevin Eikenberry
An E which are connection to that. Right.

00:33:49:00 - 00:34:16:04
Aoife O'Brien
Exactly. Yes. So is he is do it any way. So if you're not feeling confident do it anyway. If you're feeling insecure, if you're feeling nervous, all of the you know what? Insert the excuse here. Do it anyway. And then E is for every day. Because this is not something that how you know, it's not just something that happens once and then it goes away.

00:34:16:04 - 00:34:32:09
Aoife O'Brien
It's something that we have to be able to manage every day. And I think by taking those everyday courageous actions, it helps us to keep in check. It helps us to realize how it's impacting us and what we can do and what we can choose to do about us.

00:34:32:11 - 00:35:01:22
Kevin Eikenberry
I love that. So I'm going to shift gears. So ABCd everybody acknowledge, believe, create, take courageous action. Do it and feel it and do it anyway. And then keep doing it everyday continuous process. And that will help you if you find yourself, experiencing imposter syndrome will help you move past it. Shifting gears before we finish, I'm curious, what you do for fun.

00:35:02:00 - 00:35:09:01
Kevin Eikenberry
Fun, fun. That could be. That could be f in your in your ABC.

00:35:09:03 - 00:35:32:06
Aoife O'Brien
ABC fun. Yeah. Make sure to have fun every day. I love baking. That is probably pretty high up there on what I do for fun. I love traveling as well, so. I mean, Tenerife and the Canary Islands at the moment. I do like traveling for for fun and for work occasionally, but I prefer traveling for fun, I think.

00:35:32:06 - 00:35:36:18
Aoife O'Brien
So they're. Those are the two big things. So I have a license.

00:35:36:20 - 00:35:49:13
Kevin Eikenberry
Yeah. It looks to me you could travel to Indianapolis and bring baked goods, and then that would make Kevin happy. You could do both. Yes, you could do both of those things. So. So what are you reading these days?

00:35:49:15 - 00:36:18:01
Aoife O'Brien
I'm currently reading a book by Doctor Ross Harris called The Happiness Trap, and it's about acceptance and commitment therapy, and it's about all of the traps that we as humans fall into when when we're living our lives. So, you know, the thinking traps and anxiety, all of these kinds of things. So it's actually really interesting. Not quite the same as my Happier at Work framework, but it's interesting nonetheless.

00:36:18:03 - 00:36:34:13
Kevin Eikenberry
The Happiness trap, we will have that in the show notes, everybody. We will also have a whole bunch of stuff in the show notes about how you can get connected with info, but I'm curious where do you where do you want to point people, anything specific you want them to hear right now before they have to go someplace else to find stuff?

00:36:34:15 - 00:37:00:18
Aoife O'Brien
I would say the two best, well, three best places. Since you're watching or listening to a podcast, check out the Happier at Work podcast, search Happier at Work in whatever podcast platform you're in. My LinkedIn profile is the one I keep most active, so search for me on LinkedIn. I'm sure there'll be a link below. Or if you're watching live on LinkedIn, then feel free to reach out and connect with me there.

00:37:01:02 - 00:37:21:16
Aoife O'Brien
It's difficult name to spell, so definitely have a look in the show notes for that. And then the third place I'll say is my website Happier at Work Dot, i.e. or my Imposter Syndrome dot iie website. So both of those cases have a huge amount of resources for imposter syndrome. Workplace, career and culture.

00:37:21:18 - 00:37:40:04
Kevin Eikenberry
Awesome. Again, all of those will be in the show notes. Just if you if you can just type happier at work in your browser, you will likely find her sooner than later. Happier at work i.e. great place to start. Okay, so before so thank you for being here. Like thank.

00:37:40:04 - 00:37:40:18
Aoife O'Brien
You.

00:37:40:20 - 00:38:05:21
Kevin Eikenberry
I should go without saying almost. But before we say our final goodbyes, I have got to ask the question of all of you that I ask every week. Every episode is now what? What are you going to do as a result of this? Maybe hearing this gave you a label for something that you just thought you've experienced and others didn't, and if that's true, then that's perhaps helpful for you.

00:38:05:23 - 00:38:22:15
Kevin Eikenberry
But there were ideas here about what you now what now what what can I do next? And so that's the question here. What will you do with what you learned? Maybe you want to start this kind of a conversation with your team. And you could use this podcast as a as a starting point of conversation on your team.

00:38:22:17 - 00:38:40:04
Kevin Eikenberry
Maybe there's specific things that we talked about that you want to make sure that you take action on, whatever those things are. I know this, that if you take action on something from having been here, you will get far more benefit from the 40 ish minutes that you just spent with us. And I hope that you will do that.

00:38:40:04 - 00:38:47:16
Kevin Eikenberry
So if I thank you so much for being here, such a pleasure. It was wonderful. Thanks for having it. Thanks for being with me.

00:38:47:18 - 00:38:49:17
Aoife O'Brien
Thank you. Thanks for having me.

00:38:49:19 - 00:39:15:01
Kevin Eikenberry
And everybody. If you like this, you better come back next week. Because every week, actually, if you're listening to this on the podcast during July, we're doing more than one a week. But regardless, over time, every week there's a new episode of the Remarkable Leadership Podcast. Make sure you come back, subscribe wherever it is that you are listening or watching this, and make sure you invite someone else to join you to listen as well.

00:39:15:06 - 00:39:19:12
Kevin Eikenberry
If you do those things, you will have a remarkable day. Thanks so much. Talk to you all soon.