The Remarkable Leadership Podcast

00:00:08:13 - 00:00:34:02
Kevin Eikenberry
Leadership is complex and has been studied for a long time. But how do we bring all that has been learned about it and connect the dots for leaders in the real world? Well, because you're watching or listening. I know you care about being a more effective leader. And so we're here to help you figure out how to connect those dots.

00:00:34:04 - 00:00:55:17
Kevin Eikenberry
We're going to do that based on research today, which makes it all the better for our own learning and growth. Welcome to another episode of the Remarkable Leadership Podcast, where we are helping leaders grow personally and professionally to lead more effectively and make a bigger, positive difference for their teams, organizations and the world. You are listening to this podcast.

00:00:55:17 - 00:01:16:18
Kevin Eikenberry
You could have joined us live. Well, I guess in the future you could join us live, and you can find out how to do that, from the live stream on your favorite social media platforms. You can find out when we're having those lives and how you can join us by joining either our Facebook or LinkedIn groups, which are two of the places where these are live streamed.

00:01:16:20 - 00:01:48:01
Kevin Eikenberry
You can go to remarkable podcast.com/facebook or remarkable podcast.com/linkedin to get connected, get advised and get this information sooner. Today's episode was brought to you by my latest book, Flexible Leadership Navigate Uncertainty and Lead with Confidence. It's time to realize that styles can get in our way and that and that by following our strengths, we might not always be achieving the best approach in a world more complex and uncertain than ever.

00:01:48:03 - 00:02:15:06
Kevin Eikenberry
Leaders need a new a new perspective, a new set of tools to create the great results their organizations and team members want. And that's what collective leadership provide you. Learn more and order your copy today at remarkable podcast.com/flexible. Well, with that, it seems like it's the logical time to bring in my guests. So let me bring them on stage one at a time and then let me navigate back so I can introduce them appropriately.

00:02:15:11 - 00:02:46:06
Kevin Eikenberry
Let me do that. My guests today are Margaret Moore and Jeffrey Paul. Margaret Moore, MBA blends leadership, coaching and science, including 30 years in C-suite roles, co-leading four successful startups in biotech and coaching and two decades of professional coaching and coach training. For 25 years, she's been a prolific translator of science into coaching, training and leadership practice. Jeffrey Hall, PhD, has focused on leadership for over 30 years as an HR leader with multiple corporations.

00:02:46:08 - 00:03:14:05
Kevin Eikenberry
Co-Founder of a leadership development consultancy, a nonprofit executive director and coach to leaders across the globe. He brings years of translating science into leadership as a consultant, psychologist and teacher at New York University and Harvard Medical School. Together, they have written a research based book titled The Science of Leadership nine Ways to Expand Your Impact. And welcome to both of you and Jeffrey to you.

00:03:14:07 - 00:03:16:02
Kevin Eikenberry
Welcome back.

00:03:16:04 - 00:03:18:05
Jeffrey Hull
Thank you. Thanks. Great to be here.

00:03:18:07 - 00:03:35:04
Kevin Eikenberry
Jeffrey was on the show like five. No, six years ago. We determined a few minutes ago. So we'll put that link to that in the show notes. If you want to go back and listen to Jeffrey. Nice conversation about one of his previous books. I really want to know. I want to start. Actually, I'm going to start.

00:03:35:04 - 00:03:42:00
Kevin Eikenberry
I didn't even have this in my list. I want to start. The last word in the subtitle is the word impact.

00:03:42:02 - 00:04:03:12
Kevin Eikenberry
I think all three of us would agree that leadership, especially great leadership, has the chance for great impact. Why did you pick that word in the subtitle? Wanted to? Why do you want to take that? I mean, I know that book titles are all intentional, like so there's a reason there. I'd really love to know why you picked that word.

00:04:03:14 - 00:04:33:18
Margaret Moore
Gosh, you know, I don't remember all the reasons that we thought about, but, you know, I think you'll relate to this, Kevin. Leadership is more than business, right? Business is making money. Leadership is impact. Leadership is. And the way the researchers measure leadership is they measure the performance of followers, the workforce, the employees. It's not the leaders.

00:04:33:19 - 00:04:57:00
Margaret Moore
It's not about your performance as the leader. It's about what you leave behind. You know the legacy. I mean, not everybody's into legacy. You might not be at that stage of life, but but but that's it's bigger than business or, you know, organizational success. It is. And its impact on self others organizations, the world Jeff writes about you know regenerative in the planet.

00:04:57:00 - 00:05:18:17
Margaret Moore
It is it is about more and hopefully that lasts. You know that data that shows that when, you know, people are billionaires, have all this money, that money gets burnt through in a couple generations. It doesn't last. But legacy, you know, and an impact a lot. So I think it's about making a difference in a way that lasts and gets carried on.

00:05:18:18 - 00:05:26:01
Kevin Eikenberry
Thank you. So so Jeffrey, how did you guys come to do this book and do this book together?

00:05:26:03 - 00:05:30:07
Jeffrey Hull
Wow. Well, that was quite a journey. I even have our.

00:05:30:07 - 00:05:31:11
Kevin Eikenberry
Journey down low.

00:05:31:11 - 00:06:10:07
Jeffrey Hull
There we go. Well it is it has been quite a journey. And it's actually been, a lot of fun, a lot of hard work, great collaboration. And, in many ways, for me, I'd have to say a joy to have such a great coauthor and to work with someone that I've known for many, many years. And, I had started a journey for a new book around leadership, with, Barrett Koehler about two years ago and was in conversations with the publisher and editor and trying to hone in on a theme.

00:06:10:07 - 00:06:35:22
Jeffrey Hull
And there were a lot of different options. And, at a certain point, editor discovered, project, a smaller project that Margaret and I had conducted with the Institute of Coaching, where we are both leaders. And this was coming out of the pandemic. And we had with a group of our senior coaches, we had done a mini qualitative survey of how things had changed coming out of the pandemic.

00:06:36:00 - 00:06:53:09
Jeffrey Hull
And from that there was a written report and the publisher read the report and it was thrilled. He was like, wow, this is so cool. And we were like, yeah, but that was many. And it was tiny and it was right out of the pandemic. And he said, well, why don't you take this kind of idea and expand it?

00:06:53:11 - 00:07:20:09
Jeffrey Hull
And I said, I'd love to do that, but I couldn't do that without my colleague Margaret, because she was really the primary driver of that writing. And he said, well, why don't you ask her? So I did, and the rest is history. I mean, we basically sat down together with the with the publisher and recognized that, there was all this amazing research available to us as coaches.

00:07:20:09 - 00:07:46:00
Jeffrey Hull
We had been translating, coaching, research for our coaching communities, much of it was around leadership and well-being. And we realized in our conversation that a lot of this research exists around leadership, like how to be an effective leader in today's world has been studied for many, many years, but so much of this scientific basis is locked up in academic journals.

00:07:46:02 - 00:08:09:09
Jeffrey Hull
And I don't know about you, but I think most of my it's safe to say that most of my clients do not spend their time reading academic journals on leadership. So it just became an obvious opportunity. And for us to step back and translate this research into something useful, accessible and to a certain extent with a coaching mindset.

00:08:09:09 - 00:08:36:10
Jeffrey Hull
Because we're both coaches, we're not academic researchers, but we have been involved with the science underpinning coaching for years. And so it was just a natural evolution to the let's look at the leadership literature and then find a way to create an accessible, usable, practical approach that brings this work, this really profound research to the mainstream audience.

00:08:36:12 - 00:08:41:21
Kevin Eikenberry
Margaret, anything you want to add to that? Before I ask you the next question?

00:08:41:23 - 00:09:11:01
Margaret Moore
The most important thing is that we are channeling the scientists that that's what we're doing. You know, we we created the framework. We organized it in a way that's flexible and whole. And that was our contribution coming from a number of places. But, but we are channeling what the researchers are telling us. And at this moment in time, when I was in MBA school 40 years ago, there wasn't a science of leadership.

00:09:11:03 - 00:09:37:21
Margaret Moore
Now there are meta analysis. And and so basically, we're at a place where just take humility. There's 212 studies that were reviewed in one study. So it's not just one studies 200. It's 150 of this, 250 of servant leadership. So there's a lot of data now. And you can find the signal and the noise. And so getting that bringing that to everyday leaders and coaches is really important.

00:09:37:23 - 00:09:41:14
Margaret Moore
I mean this was really important work to do.

00:09:41:16 - 00:10:05:03
Kevin Eikenberry
Which actually leads right into my next question, Margaret. So there is a tremendous amount of research. How did you tell us about how you researched the research? If you will, like, how did you decide, like, if you read all 212 on humility and you read all 122? And so, I mean, like at some level, help us understand how you decided to get your arms around it.

00:10:05:05 - 00:10:20:00
Kevin Eikenberry
Like, I think at this point, everyone who's watching or listening has a a picture of where we're, we're I mean, we're going to unpack some of this for everybody. But like, how did you get from what Jeffrey said, like, how did you pick tell us about the research. About the research.

00:10:20:02 - 00:10:56:14
Margaret Moore
Right. Well, I should start by saying my first career was in biotechnology. So I worked exclusively with scientists and researchers and led R&D programs. Biotech companies are basically research and development companies. So I was I was familiar with reading literature. The first thing you do is you go for high quality studies. You know, you, you, you we had a list of topics that came out of, lots of sources, but there's a, there's a lot of frameworks that are coaches use that leaders use that are familiar.

00:10:56:20 - 00:11:19:06
Margaret Moore
So we started there, although we didn't just take them as they were, we took the essence of them. And then we know there's 100 topics in leadership research at least. So we kind of got these nine topics. And then we organized like humility went and servant leadership, visionary leadership went into transformational forgiveness and leadership is a study is in relational.

00:11:19:11 - 00:11:38:13
Margaret Moore
So we, we, we, we looked for the main topics and we looked for high quality studies and we, we looked for the, the top journals. So we didn't do small studies with 20 people or 50 people. We, we went after the largest studies we had already. We were already familiar with a lot of it. We just had to fill it out.

00:11:38:15 - 00:11:57:16
Margaret Moore
It took it took about two months of gathering data, putting it into lists, and then begin and then writing it up from there. So we you start with the latest and then you and then you organize it, and then you start to write and you let it in the writing and it's informed by what the data said, you know.

00:11:57:16 - 00:12:11:14
Margaret Moore
So one topic led to the next, led to the next. So there's a there's a natural order there that comes when you put it all together. So yeah. So it's just good old fashioned work that I would not have been able to do.

00:12:11:16 - 00:12:16:05
Kevin Eikenberry
Well, I wonder if I'd say that. So,

00:12:16:07 - 00:12:17:23
Margaret Moore
You know.

00:12:18:01 - 00:12:33:17
Kevin Eikenberry
You talked about the framework, the there are nine, nine capacities, and we'll talk about those in a second. But you started there like you had some done some things to do that and then brought the research in as opposed to the other way around.

00:12:33:20 - 00:13:01:23
Margaret Moore
I'm not a big bit of both, but we knew that we had the list of topics just because that's we've been gathering it for 20 years, you know, what are the and also they're topics that are common to coaching and well-being. That's the interesting thing. Even though we stayed with the studies on leadership, they're both very familiar to us because we know about positive psychology and we know about relationships and we know about transformation and we know about agility.

00:13:02:01 - 00:13:21:02
Margaret Moore
You know, we already know a lot of these things that just that we so we weren't starting from scratch. We we already had a pretty good command. You when you coach people the same topics. I mean I bet, you know, I heard you talk about your book in another podcast, flexibility is it today not strengths based. You know, Peter Drucker got us this far.

00:13:21:02 - 00:13:28:21
Margaret Moore
You know, build on your strengths. Now you have to become a whole. You have to round out your your repertoire.

00:13:28:23 - 00:13:49:10
Kevin Eikenberry
So, before we get to the nine capacities and and everybody, we'll list them out. We are we do not have time to dive into all nine, but I'm going to give we'll talk about it a little bit. But before that you've identified within the nine capacities they fall into I'm going to say three segments or three focus areas.

00:13:49:16 - 00:14:05:19
Kevin Eikenberry
So Jeffrey, tell us about those three. They really map with what we talk about. We use different words and some different words. But I'd love for you to talk about those three, segments and why they're all important. Back to this word impact.

00:14:05:21 - 00:14:29:14
Jeffrey Hull
Yeah, I appreciate that. I think that what Margaret was pointing to is that we realized we could not cover the world. I mean, it's a huge pantheon of leadership literature. So you have to keep in mind that as we went through the journey of reviewing the analogy of the reviewing the studies, we also had a coaching mindset throughout the whole time.

00:14:29:16 - 00:14:54:21
Jeffrey Hull
And we were thinking about how does this apply in our coaching that we work with leaders. And it started sort of naturally fall into buckets, because these are the kinds of issues that come up with our clients. And so as we took the topics one by one, we realized that there is a flow. There's a natural flow that leaders go through.

00:14:54:21 - 00:15:20:11
Jeffrey Hull
It's like a journey they take that starts with grounding it within themselves. Like before you can start to fix a system, you have to start with yourself. So we looked at what are the core capacities, as we call them, or the capabilities that are related to developing oneself as a leader. And then it felt natural to evolve from internal to external.

00:15:20:11 - 00:15:43:22
Jeffrey Hull
And as we looked at those domains that are external, it became very clear that the first level of that is your team, is your relationships with the people you influence, the people you impact directly, like right around you are colleagues, your peers, your direct report. So the first level was yourself, the second level was your team. And working in with relationships with others.

00:15:44:00 - 00:16:13:06
Jeffrey Hull
And then ultimately, when we looked at the most sophisticated research, it starts to look at the bigger picture. And that includes things like servant leadership and transformational leadership and, and, distributive or shared leadership. And that's shifting from sort of an I to a we mindset and looking at the bigger picture. And it became kind of natural that as we work with leaders, those are the stages we go through in coaching.

00:16:13:08 - 00:16:20:18
Jeffrey Hull
So why not make the journey in the book applicable to the way it is in the real world?

00:16:20:20 - 00:16:44:18
Kevin Eikenberry
Sounds logical. You so you talked about self others in organization. We we tip I use three O's outcomes. Others and ourselves and they really met. I mean the same love, that same thing. Right. And so what I'd like you to do now, is so there are three of the capacities, as you just said, Jeffrey, at each of those three areas.

00:16:44:20 - 00:17:00:16
Kevin Eikenberry
So, Margaret, here's what I want to do. I want you all to give us. I'll have you go back and forth like, we'll do the first three, Margaret and Jeffrey, you can do the next three, etc.. But what? I just want a couple of sentences about each because we really, by the way, everybody, you're going to want a copy of the book.

00:17:00:21 - 00:17:22:07
Kevin Eikenberry
So you might want to just take care of getting that order. Now the signs of leadership nine ways to Expand Your impact. It's if you if you read the slide, it's coming out in about two weeks. And if you're with us after the podcast comes out, it's already out. So go ahead and get your copy. So we're going to go deeply into each one.

00:17:22:07 - 00:17:32:11
Kevin Eikenberry
But I want everyone to know sort of what the framework is. And then I'm going to ask you some general questions about them. So Margaret tell us about the three that are the self focused three.

00:17:32:13 - 00:18:06:01
Margaret Moore
Well good. So it starts with conscious which is that you are present. You see clearly you're calm and you're objective and that those are hard things to do because we have all this emotional noise and busy mind here. And so it maps to mindfulness, it maps to self awareness. And we took it a step further with emotional integration, which means that the noise in your mind, the ego noise of a leader, ultimately turns into a quieter ego.

00:18:06:01 - 00:18:35:19
Margaret Moore
That's the journey of leaders. Which is why the more senior leaders speak more slowly, are more powerful, and see things more clearly. So that's conscious. The second, is authentic and that is, the fire in us. That's our values, what we care about. So that's purpose, virtues, values, character, all those things, they, they sit in a lot of different frameworks, but, but authenticity is really the starting point.

00:18:35:19 - 00:18:58:19
Margaret Moore
But the second piece is that you also really care about the authenticity of others. So that's the heart. The agile is, the basis for everything. As you know, you're you need to you need to be mentally agile, going from big picture to little details up and down the elevator. You know, many times a day you've got to go from adversity to to corporate to resilience.

00:18:58:19 - 00:19:20:00
Margaret Moore
You need to go from one extreme of a conflict to the other. You know, you're, you know, we've got this polarized world. You're basically bouncing around your brain using all of it. You know, up and down party, you know, that you just you might, you know, you might as well be a, an athlete, a mental athlete. So that's agility.

00:19:20:01 - 00:19:20:18
Margaret Moore
So those are the.

00:19:20:22 - 00:19:22:04
Kevin Eikenberry
When.

00:19:22:06 - 00:19:30:18
Margaret Moore
You're awake, you're genuine. You care like your heart say you're in this and you're and you're able to bounce. Right.

00:19:30:20 - 00:19:39:09
Kevin Eikenberry
And so the next three are the the others or the about other people about the team. Geoffrey, walk us through those three.

00:19:39:11 - 00:20:09:15
Jeffrey Hull
Sure. So when you, step from agile into the broader, you start to move outward into the organization. The first step is going to be an obvious one, which is relational. And it starts right, right close to home with relationships with the people that you work with, with your peers, your direct reports. And it looks like things like coaching and mentoring and creating a space for psychological safety.

00:20:09:17 - 00:20:53:10
Jeffrey Hull
And, it's really about having those core, connective tissues with others, like empathy is in this space. And we love the research of a colleague of ours and Colin Fisher, who did some wonderful work on how not to be a micromanager. And just to give you one taste of the research, you know, he and his colleagues studied project management, and they came away with two key themes, which are really I find them very profound with my clients, which are guiding rather than dictating and path clearing like clearing the path for your team to be able to follow through.

00:20:53:10 - 00:21:18:06
Jeffrey Hull
So those are sort of a relational activities that you get engaged in. The next is positive psychology or positive leadership. And this we call strengthening. Because it's really how do you create an environment that elevates the capabilities and capacities of all the people that you interact with. And this is where we do it. Pretty deep dive into positive psychology.

00:21:18:06 - 00:21:56:09
Jeffrey Hull
And this has been around now for 20 years. And there are core principles of positive psychology around efficacy meaning motivation. And so the the research and positive psychology is incredibly helpful for coaches. And we try to distill it down to sort of the core premise that leaders can use to bring a qualitatively optimist type environment in and stay also away from what we would call toxic passive positivity, which is, you know, the, rose colored glasses are everything is always wonderful.

00:21:56:14 - 00:22:44:04
Jeffrey Hull
It's not about that. It's about being realistic and optimistic and building resilience and competencies. So that's the positive domain. And then the third level and in the sort of next outer domain is compassionate leadership, which is a relatively new kid on the block in terms of research. And I think Margaret and I kind of debated like, where would we put compassion and how does this fit in and what but what we came to realize is that compassion is sort of this integration of all that has come before consciousness, agility, positive, relational, and then beginning to see how that impacts the wider world.

00:22:44:06 - 00:23:09:05
Jeffrey Hull
And we we chose to use the word resonate. Like if you're really a compassionate leader, you will be able to resonate with the pain, the suffering, the challenges, the traumas that we all go through as human beings. And to actually get to that place is more than empathy. It's broader, it's deeper, and it's truly a more sophisticated way of being in the world.

00:23:09:07 - 00:23:20:17
Jeffrey Hull
And there's some really good studies around compassion. It's becoming, I would say it's sort of one of the more recent areas of research. So those are the three in that domain moving outward.

00:23:20:19 - 00:23:39:11
Kevin Eikenberry
And then most everyone is. Here is what I would call a capital leader. You have a leadership title or role of some sort. And so at some point you have to talk about this third segment, this third domain, that being the organizational results piece. So Margaret, why don't you talk about the last three.

00:23:39:13 - 00:23:52:01
Margaret Moore
To do that. Yeah. Well, the next one, I was just doing a workshop on this in Mexico last weekend, and this one had the lowest score.

00:23:52:03 - 00:24:19:23
Margaret Moore
So shared leadership. So shared leadership is where, as a leader, before you, you know, proclaim from your perch the vision, the purpose and the strategy, you, in fact, share the process of building those with you, not just the top C-suite and the top SVP that believes, but you get you get it down as far as you can go.

00:24:19:23 - 00:24:50:14
Margaret Moore
And there's a wonderful story is called Open Strategy. That was done it with a European, insurance company with 50,000 employees, brand new CEO stock price doing terribly in four months. To turn it around, he got a group of 40 frontline like shop floor. Like people in the insurance company took them four months before they could talk in his language, before they could actually, they could actually share their ideas in a way that was system wide.

00:24:50:14 - 00:25:11:22
Margaret Moore
And when they put out their new strategic plan, the share value went up $18 billion. So it's worthwhile. But it took months to get these people who are not used to talking the language. So that's that's like shared leadership at the on the front lines. Is that you? Because as a leader, you say, I don't have time to bring these people along.

00:25:12:00 - 00:25:29:14
Margaret Moore
I they don't understand what's going on in the world. You know, they've only got, you know, this bird's eye view. But when you go the extra mile and you know, Kevin, this is probably our answer to engagement is to engage people in the direction setting. Right. That's it doesn't get talked about, but I think that's the real deal.

00:25:29:14 - 00:25:54:23
Margaret Moore
So that's the hardest one. Servant leadership is hard because you you and most of us do this in small doses, not as we're not Mother Theresa, but you really are in this place of of service. And you and you, you're humble. You forget about yourself. You're there, to to to help others do their best. And so, we all could use a little more of that.

00:25:55:04 - 00:26:18:09
Margaret Moore
And it's a bit more than authentic values because your values may still not, might not go as far as service. The last one, which is the penultimate, because everything up until this point makes it go better, is transformational. It's the most studied leadership topic. It's actually boring because people have known for about it for so long. You know, 40 years it's been around Bernard Bousquet and founded Leadership Quarterly.

00:26:18:11 - 00:26:35:13
Margaret Moore
But it turns out there's lots of things that you can add to it. There's now sides of inspiration. So if you're going to be an inspirational leader, what do you do to make that happen? How do you get people to lift their feet off the ground, turn the light on, and see possibilities that I've never seen before? You know, now there's some some ways to do that.

00:26:35:15 - 00:27:08:03
Margaret Moore
And, and my favorite is this concept of novel problem formulation. Okay. So transformation of leadership is about taking your challenge, even your biggest challenge, and turning it into strength and opportunity. This is the answer to Peter Drucker. You know, you take the worst and you turn it into the best. And and the science around formulating problems says that the bigger and the more diverse your your landscape of the problem, the more perspectives you've you've considered, the more innovative the solution.

00:27:08:05 - 00:27:26:14
Margaret Moore
So this is where you're agile, looking at all these different approaches. You're compassionate to all the different voices. And when you put it all together, and then you add a little bit of intuition, you get this transformational solution, which is all goes better when all the other things are working well.

00:27:26:16 - 00:27:48:18
Kevin Eikenberry
So now everybody, you have the overview of the framework and the capacities in in connection to self, others and organization. And so I'm curious, I'm going to ask you both this question where we do you go first, Jeffrey, of the nine, which do you think is either misunderstood or misapplied?

00:27:48:18 - 00:28:26:14
Jeffrey Hull
Most, The to the top. I, I'm not sure I can give you one, but to pop into my mind immediately. So and I always follow my intuition the they are conscious leadership and servant leadership. And I think maybe the reason they both pop into my mind is that, there's a lot of overlap between being a servant, which is kind of leading from behind and requiring humility and respect for yourself and for others.

00:28:26:16 - 00:28:53:16
Jeffrey Hull
And conscious leadership is challenging because it requires you to be willing to be objective about yourself. And then that leads to the question of how do I become objective about myself? Is it even possible to become objective or see what we like to call see clearly? And it requires feedback and requires you to actually listen to how you're perceive.

00:28:53:16 - 00:29:21:16
Jeffrey Hull
Pay attention to how you're perceived by others. And I think this is these are very challenging for all of us. Right. We may think we're in service of a bigger picture, but we may not be aware that we're being kind of autocratic or we are taking up a lot of space, or we're not listening, or we're spending all our time on our phone, you know, we're all of those things are connected, right?

00:29:21:16 - 00:30:01:09
Jeffrey Hull
Because if you're not aware and present to how you show up in the world as a leader, your physical, your emotional, your mental state, you can't really come across as a true servant and all of the others become problematic. So to answer your question, I think conscious leadership is the reason why it's the ground on which everything else is built is the most challenging but the core, and we spend quite a bit of time talking about that in terms of the research and in terms of coaching.

00:30:01:11 - 00:30:12:20
Jeffrey Hull
There's case studies in the book about, we actually recommend you work through some of those issues, because that's going to be the foundation to be successful.

00:30:12:22 - 00:30:18:19
Kevin Eikenberry
Margaret, do you have a different answer or anything you want to add?

00:30:18:21 - 00:30:45:14
Margaret Moore
I want to add one thing about compassion that won't be obvious, because I think it comes from a place of, a deep understanding of all forces operating when you are and respect, which is the basis for strategy. So compassion, if you really understand, listen to and respect and appreciate and you don't treat one group differently than another and you really get it all, you are primed for the best possible strategy.

00:30:45:19 - 00:31:09:07
Margaret Moore
So I don't think it's obvious that compassion is the basis for great strategy. And, and so I would, I would add that and then that one thing that we're bringing to everybody's attention is this concept called a quiet ego. And I want to point that out as well, because right now we don't have a lot of role models of quieting.

00:31:09:09 - 00:31:36:08
Margaret Moore
There's a, there's a, there's a, over indexing of our emotions, as if that they're really important for everyone to experience. But then that's not true. The most impact you can, you can use your emotions, but they're like a dog on a leash. You only let it run once in a while. And I think, I think that the better you are at bringing the quiet ego to the fore, the more impactful you are.

00:31:36:10 - 00:31:42:19
Margaret Moore
You know? You know, you use the noise once in a while, but you you use it very carefully.

00:31:42:21 - 00:32:11:13
Kevin Eikenberry
I want to say to everybody listening that, I actually had, a lower third I could have put up there about ego. And you answer it and you mentioned it earlier and you mentioned again, Margaret. And so I hope that all of you who are listening, like, did a mental underline of that, I find having done around 500 of these, that there's usually at least one thing from an episode that is the thing that I will remember and connect to my guests.

00:32:11:15 - 00:32:35:18
Kevin Eikenberry
And I'm confident, from reading the book, that's I mean, there's lots of things I love about this book, and, and you've done a real service around what you've done, around researching the research, as I said earlier. But it's just this idea of the quiet ego and quieting our ego is probably the thing that I will personally take from from our conversation and from the book as probably the biggest thing.

00:32:35:18 - 00:32:51:07
Kevin Eikenberry
I think it's a really important point. You talked about it in a really useful way, both in the book and in what you just said. Marcus, I really appreciate that. Before we finish, I have a question that I always ask. I'm going to ask both of you, and I guess it's your turn, Jeffrey. So you get to go first.

00:32:51:09 - 00:33:08:11
Kevin Eikenberry
You already. This is the only thing that that everybody that that that everybody is listening knows, they knew I was going to ask them a lot to ask. And Jeffrey said, well, I've got like eight. I said, well, maybe get this eight. The question is, what are you what are you reading these days?

00:33:08:12 - 00:33:16:04
Jeffrey Hull
Yeah. No, I appreciate that you gave us a little bit of a heads up, because otherwise I'd be looking at my Kindle and saying, oh, God, what am I reading in the last 24 hours?

00:33:16:07 - 00:33:20:05
Kevin Eikenberry
Which is why I try to do it ahead. Exactly right.

00:33:20:06 - 00:33:44:23
Jeffrey Hull
But it's actually a really great question and great timing to because especially connecting the dots with the quiet ego, which we did focus on a lot in the book and the research, from a wonderful book. And Margaret, remind me the name of the book, Transforming Formative Self, Transforming of Self by Jack Bauer. I'll let Margaret say more about that, but that's also an amazing book.

00:33:45:01 - 00:34:10:17
Jeffrey Hull
The book that I just finished reading that connects all of this, though, is called The Trauma of Everyday Life by a wonderful Buddhist psychiatrist named Brian Epstein. In New York, he wrote a book called Thoughts Without a Thinker, which is a very famous book from quite a few years ago, and one of his most recent ones is called The Trauma of Everyday Life.

00:34:10:17 - 00:34:44:17
Jeffrey Hull
And it's really beautiful book and it's a lot about bringing some of the baseline Buddhist principles into our everyday world. And then I'll quickly mention another one that I love right now called Rise Above, which is written by a good friend of of mine and of the Institute of Coaching, Barry Scott Kaufman, who has best known for sort of updating Maslow's hierarchy of needs with his recent book on The Transcendence self.

00:34:44:17 - 00:35:03:00
Jeffrey Hull
I think it's called. But his newest book is called Rise Above, and it's, it's also really, really excellent, approach to bringing, what he calls moving out of a victim mindset. So I encourage you to read both of those along with ours.

00:35:03:02 - 00:35:06:17
Kevin Eikenberry
All right. Well, absolutely. Margaret, what are you reading these days?

00:35:06:22 - 00:35:40:00
Margaret Moore
Right. So, there's a wonderful new documentary out on Mark Twain. So start there because he's an amazing cataloger of the human experience. And I'm reading the new book called James. I just barely started Percival Everett, which is the black person's perspective on, Huckleberry Finn. So I'm looking forward to that as a mind expander. The other thing, is that I'm reading a lot about, I, including Harare's new book.

00:35:40:00 - 00:36:10:23
Margaret Moore
So I, I do think that humans are downloading into the AI psyche their own patterns. So, you know, like if you just compare different AI services, they have different personalities. And, and, I think our book provides a simple framework for people developing AI, for people developing AI. Sorry for AI to help leaders and for AI to lead.

00:36:11:01 - 00:36:36:19
Margaret Moore
I think we have to make a conscious effort to download into the AI psyche what we need and not this competitive. I describe a lot of AI, like a virus, which means it's it's got the energy of one to take over its host. You can feel it, but the living world is one of cells. And cells live in cooperation with their fellow cells.

00:36:36:21 - 00:37:04:20
Margaret Moore
And and we need to turn AI into, more of a living, cooperative, collaborative mode. And I do think that that requires real leaning. And so I'm, I'm trying to understand this, like ghosts, including coaching AI leaders as much as I can to do what we can to help. Help human leaders lead AI.

00:37:04:21 - 00:37:31:12
Kevin Eikenberry
We've been talking with the authors of the new book, The Science of Leadership Nine Ways to Impact Me, to Expand Your Impact. And I know that you can learn more at The Science of leadership.com, but either of you want to tell us a little bit more about where they can connect with you, where they can learn more, or is there anything else that you want to tell us about connecting and reaching out to you before we reach before we finish up?

00:37:31:14 - 00:37:58:16
Jeffrey Hull
I just want to thank you for this great conversation. Mostly, you've got the website there on your screen, and the book comes out July 15th, so it may already be out or not, depending upon when this gets, when you get to just to see this and I think I would just add that we love being in dialog with our readers, as we've loved being in dialog with the researchers.

00:37:58:18 - 00:38:21:20
Jeffrey Hull
As Margaret said at the outset, this book has been kind of an honoring of the scientists. And so if you are a researcher or you actually are interested in that side of things, reach out to us. I'm on LinkedIn and Margaret's on LinkedIn. We love conversations. We're coaches. So we're people persons. We, you know, writing books is not our primary focus.

00:38:21:22 - 00:38:24:20
Jeffrey Hull
So we look forward to hearing from everyone.

00:38:24:22 - 00:38:45:10
Kevin Eikenberry
Science of leadership.com everybody. Now before we finish, I'm going to ask all of you the question and then asking my guest question, I'm going to ask you a question is the question I ask you every single episode. If you've been here before, you know what I'm about to ask you. The question is, now what? What are you going to do with what you just heard?

00:38:45:14 - 00:39:07:13
Kevin Eikenberry
Maybe you're going to go buy a book or 2 or 5, depending on which ones that you found interesting. Maybe there's hopefully there's multiple things that you just heard that you found interesting, that stopped you in your tracks mentally. The question is, what are you going to do with those things? Not just, hey, that was interesting. Hey, I really ought to do something about that.

00:39:07:13 - 00:39:26:06
Kevin Eikenberry
What am I going to do? What are you going to actually do? What action will you take? Because until you take action, until you move from knowing to doing nothing is really significantly going to change. And so I encourage you to do that. When you do that, you get far more value from the time that you just spent with us.

00:39:26:06 - 00:39:47:06
Kevin Eikenberry
And so I want to thank Margaret and Jeffrey again for being here, and to remind all of you that if you love this, tell somebody else that they do come watch or listen. And wherever you happen to be watching or listening to this, make sure you subscribe so you don't miss any future episodes. Because next week, I promise there'll be another episode of the Remarkable Leadership Podcast.