The Remarkable Leadership Podcast

00:00:08:08 - 00:00:32:22
Kevin Eikenberry
Chances are, if you listen to this podcast, you strive to lead in a way other than command and control. That goal might even be at the heart of why you're here. Today we're going to clarify what that alternative is. The alternative to command and control. And so that you can lead through, rather than focusing on exhibiting power over others.

00:00:32:23 - 00:00:52:06
Kevin Eikenberry
Welcome to another episode of the Remarkable Leadership Podcast, where we are helping leaders grow personally and professionally to lead more effectively, to make a bigger, positive difference for their teams, organizations and the world. If you are listening to this podcast in the future, you could be with us. Live too late for this one, but not for future ones.

00:00:52:09 - 00:01:12:23
Kevin Eikenberry
And so you can learn about when those live episodes happen. Find out how you can get in front of some of these ideas. Because we're recording this almost two months before it will go live. And so you can find out when we're doing those, how you can engage with us on any social media media platform. But you can do that on our Facebook or LinkedIn groups.

00:01:13:04 - 00:01:44:05
Kevin Eikenberry
Just go to remarkable podcast.com/facebook or remarkable podcast.com/linked in checking. To join us in one of those places and hopefully join us live in the future. Today's episode is brought to you by the second edition of our book, The Long Distance Leader Revised Rules for Remarkable Remote and Hybrid Leadership. If you lead a team that is distributed in any way, this book will give you new skills, insights, and the confidence to lead more effectively in the new world of work.

00:01:44:07 - 00:02:06:02
Kevin Eikenberry
Learn more and order your copy today at remarkable podcast.com/l d l. I hope that you will do that, and that I hope that you will virtually welcome in my guest as he joins us. His name is Jonathan Clark. He is a professor of management at the University of Texas at San Antonio, where he also served as department chair and associate dean.

00:02:06:04 - 00:02:29:02
Kevin Eikenberry
His work focuses on helping leaders create the conditions under which individuals or groups and organizations can do their best collective work. He is the coauthor, along with his accomplished father and sister, of leading through activating the heart, soul, and mind of leadership. He is our guest and I'm glad to have him. Jonathan. Welcome. Thank you.

00:02:29:03 - 00:02:31:03
Jonathan Clark
Thank you Kevin, glad to be here.

00:02:31:05 - 00:02:51:10
Kevin Eikenberry
So let's talk about I want to talk about that and system in a minute. But I want to just talk about like a little bit about how it came to be that you were eventually really the three of you. But what what sort of what, what's the storyline? You didn't probably wake up when you were six and say, I'm going to write a book.

00:02:51:12 - 00:02:56:21
Kevin Eikenberry
So like, give us just a really quick arc how we ended up here.

00:02:56:23 - 00:03:01:05
Jonathan Clark
I didn't wake up when I was six. I could write a book.

00:03:01:07 - 00:03:02:05
Kevin Eikenberry
Was just a guess.

00:03:02:08 - 00:03:18:04
Jonathan Clark
But actually, the impetus for the book does stretch back that far. I grew up in a home full of leaders. My my parents are wonderful leaders. My older siblings are wonderful leaders, as are my younger siblings. I have I have six siblings.

00:03:18:05 - 00:03:22:20
Kevin Eikenberry
Yeah. Be careful you don't just only talk about the older ones. They're right.

00:03:22:22 - 00:03:41:16
Jonathan Clark
Yeah. Although my older siblings were the ones who had kind of a leadership influence on me. You know, my, my, my older sister, who's a coauthor on the book, was senior class president in high school. And my my brother was captain of the basketball team and,

00:03:41:18 - 00:03:42:14
Kevin Eikenberry
Big shoes.

00:03:42:18 - 00:04:04:09
Jonathan Clark
Big shoes, big shoes. And, of course, you know, my parents were wonderful to my dad has done some remarkable things professionally and, you know, in our family and in our community and my mom as well. So I grew up in a home of leaders. And so leadership has kind of been in my blood since I was a kid.

00:04:04:11 - 00:04:30:13
Jonathan Clark
But the actual impetus for this book, I think, actually, I was probably around six years old or maybe a little younger than that when my dad had an experience in his professional life. You know, he he did research on operational performance and operations strategy and early in his career, he was studying the cement industry. He couldn't imagine a more boring industry to study.

00:04:30:15 - 00:04:33:13
Kevin Eikenberry
And I don't say that to the folks in the concrete.

00:04:33:15 - 00:05:10:02
Jonathan Clark
So important though, right? Cement is such a I mean, it's so critical to our lives today. Anyways, he's studying cement and the performance of cement plants all across the world, and he notices in his data that there are two plants in exactly the same city Midlothian, Texas, who have like incredibly different performance, I think. I think the higher performing plant was something like 3 or 4 times more productive than the other plant, and it just like sort of intrigued him.

00:05:10:02 - 00:05:34:00
Jonathan Clark
So he decided to actually visit those plants and go and see what was going on there. And so he did. And and what he found was remarkable. In the lower performing, plant, he found, command and control kind of environment and that kind of approach which we, we refer to as power, a power over approach, right, leads to lots of different things.

00:05:34:00 - 00:06:09:05
Jonathan Clark
Right? Often comes with very tall hierarchies, very narrow decision making lanes. You know, power is very tightly controlled and concentrated. And the people that he saw there were just miserable at work, just very, very unhappy, which contrasted sharply with what he saw on the other plant. The other plant was much flatter, right. I think I think there were only 2 or 3 levels between the plant manager and the frontline workers.

00:06:09:06 - 00:06:46:14
Jonathan Clark
People were much happier. There was a lot more initiative that people were taking in that plant, so people would see a problem and instead of sending it up the chain, they just saw it themselves. And and so effectively, you know, he, he, you know, so sort of sit back and said, what's the key difference? Well, the key difference is that in the in the latter plant, what he saw was leadership, but not leadership emanating from the top leadership that was everywhere in the organization.

00:06:46:15 - 00:07:03:16
Jonathan Clark
And people exercising that leadership to make things better. And the result of that ultimately was a much more productive plant, much happier people. And anyway, so that that kind of started that if we had this sort of pinpoint where, where does where did the ideas for this book.

00:07:03:16 - 00:07:05:18
Kevin Eikenberry
Where does all this come from? It goes from a long time ago.

00:07:05:23 - 00:07:07:16
Jonathan Clark
That's a that's now.

00:07:07:18 - 00:07:31:02
Kevin Eikenberry
You know, I hinted at it in the open that, you know, there are fewer and fewer people that would say the way I lead is command and control, even though there's still a whole lot of people that do not a, a lot of people say they do or want to or want to think that they do. And there's also lots of stuff as to why that's still more pervasive than I think most anyone would wish it to be.

00:07:31:04 - 00:07:56:11
Kevin Eikenberry
I'm curious. I mean, I've interviewed a lot of coauthors and chatted with lots and lots of others off camera or off mic. But I don't know that I've ever talked to someone who wrote a book with both a sibling and their father or a parent. So, I'm curious sort of how that process went. I mean, because we, we have this same dynamic potentially of power over or leading through.

00:07:56:14 - 00:08:04:04
Kevin Eikenberry
So I think it's curious, like how how that process went for the three of you, and what your experience was with that.

00:08:04:06 - 00:08:34:02
Jonathan Clark
Well, more than a decade ago. I mean, I've been doing research similar in, in nature to the kind of research my dad did for about 20 years now. And, and I just, you know, repeatedly in my own research, observed the same things that I just described my dad observing in the cement plants. And, and my sister, who's a partner at Deloitte, she started a monitor group, which was then acquired, by Deloitte.

00:08:34:04 - 00:09:03:23
Jonathan Clark
She was she was observing the same things in her clients and, and, you know, eventually, about a decade ago, maybe a little more than a decade ago, we just started talking about this together, and sharing insights that we were gaining with each other. And, and, and, you know, you know, coalescing around together and coalescing around a set of ideas that we thought were, were kind of useful, potentially useful and helpful to people.

00:09:04:01 - 00:09:10:22
Jonathan Clark
And, and about six years ago, we decided that we had enough to, to write a book.

00:09:11:00 - 00:09:29:12
Kevin Eikenberry
And then there was a pandemic. There was a pattern. Yeah, sure. But eventually we got this book leading through. Yeah. Activating the soul heart and mind of leadership. And it's that subtitle that's really the title of this conversation. The book covers more than just that big idea at the at the subtitle, but that's where we're going to focus.

00:09:29:14 - 00:09:50:18
Kevin Eikenberry
But before we go there, you say something in the book, you say that leaders, what leaders? First of all, your definition of leadership is about leadership as a verb, leadership as actions, which I completely, 100% agree with. And you say that leadership is about that. Leaders. What what do leaders do? They they work, mobilize and process.

00:09:50:20 - 00:09:53:07
Kevin Eikenberry
Say a little bit more about that.

00:09:53:09 - 00:10:19:09
Jonathan Clark
Yeah. So we focus on on leadership as work. Right? I mean that's that's what you were just describing. Like it's it's stuff that you do. It's not a position you hold or a personality characteristic you have, although, you know, maybe those things are important at some time. In your leadership journey. But the leadership itself, the thing that gets people moving is, is work.

00:10:19:11 - 00:10:29:23
Jonathan Clark
And, and we like to focus on the helps us to crystallize in our minds what leadership looks like so that we can help other people learn how to do it.

00:10:30:01 - 00:10:40:05
Kevin Eikenberry
If it's if it's if, then it's behaviors. And if it's behaviors, then we can see them. We can learn from them. And therefore they are skills. And we can, you know, skills.

00:10:40:05 - 00:10:45:19
Jonathan Clark
Right? Yeah. Yep yep. And it's an action that begets action. That's why we.

00:10:45:21 - 00:10:46:22
Kevin Eikenberry
Say more about that.

00:10:47:00 - 00:11:10:03
Jonathan Clark
That's why we use that term mobilize. Right. So it's not just that I'm taking action right. It's that I'm taking action that actually leads other people to take action and to learn and to and to make changes, in ways that that make things better. At the end of the day. And as we've studied that, that we use the word process, right.

00:11:10:03 - 00:11:38:05
Jonathan Clark
As we've studied that process, repeatedly over time, we just see similarities, no matter where where we observe leadership, whether it's at an executive level or a team, even in a, in a, in a relation between two people, everywhere we observe leadership, we see many of the same elements. We see. We observe fundamentally the same process playing out.

00:11:38:07 - 00:11:41:13
Jonathan Clark
And so that's why we focus on leadership as a process.

00:11:41:15 - 00:12:06:08
Kevin Eikenberry
I could not possibly agree more. So you do talk about the the soul of leadership, the heart of leadership and the excuse me, in the mind of leadership. And I want to talk about each of those a little bit. And, and sort of walk through that, thinking about what is the work of doing each of those things.

00:12:06:09 - 00:12:30:03
Kevin Eikenberry
Right. And, and I'm guessing before we go too much further, most people say, well, the soul of leadership, I'm not sure how I feel about that. And if I do, I'm not sure I know what the work is there. So that's the first one in the triumvirate, and it's also the one I'd like us to start with. So what do you mean by the soul of leadership and and what should we be thinking about there?

00:12:30:05 - 00:13:01:02
Jonathan Clark
The soul of leadership is a recognition that, in our view, leadership is always and everywhere a moral act. That's a word that we use carefully. It's a word also that gets a reaction, usually from people when we use that word moral. But we really believe that it's true that leadership is always in every where a moral act for the following reason.

00:13:01:04 - 00:13:33:00
Jonathan Clark
Everywhere I've observed leadership, it emerges from from moments of influence. Right? Somebody finds themselves in, in a, a moment, a role, a position, however that role or position comes to them, in which they have the opportunity to influence other people. And, and when you find yourself in that moment, you, you the actions that you take, the things that you do will influence those people for good or for bad.

00:13:33:02 - 00:13:55:20
Jonathan Clark
And and that makes the choices you make in that moment moral. And, and we really think people need to think about leadership in those terms. And, and we also find, we believe we sort of put a stake in the ground that that leadership is good and that great leaders always strive to make things better for other people.

00:13:55:22 - 00:14:16:21
Kevin Eikenberry
So and so. Now let me ask you a question. So because someone out there sometime as they're listening, this is going to say, well, if leadership is an act and not a position, that means if we're we're only leading, if people are following, which I think you would probably agree with.

00:14:16:23 - 00:14:17:11
Jonathan Clark
Yeah.

00:14:17:13 - 00:14:40:14
Kevin Eikenberry
So okay. And so Jonathan, I get that we it ought to be a moral act, but there's been a whole lot of people that that whose morals might not have matched mine, that had a lot of people following them. I mean, the first thing that comes to my mind is Hitler. Right? Like clearly had people following him, a lot of them.

00:14:40:16 - 00:14:59:07
Kevin Eikenberry
But I think pretty much everyone would say not moral. So like, I'm not disagree with anything you said. I'm not trying to be contradictory, but I do think that that sometimes gets in people's way sometimes, like so talk about how do you handle that in your thinking.

00:14:59:09 - 00:15:24:20
Jonathan Clark
It's, it's a, it's it's a great question. And there are people who, you know, come down on both sides of this question really smart, intelligent, great, wonderful people come down on both sides of this question. I believe it's really important for us in, in as purveyors of leadership, people who want to teach leadership and help people understand leadership to be really clear about what leadership is and isn't.

00:15:24:22 - 00:15:46:16
Jonathan Clark
And followership isn't enough to produce leadership in my in my view. And and and that's because there are lots of different things that can get people moving, lots of different things that can get people to do what you lots of different ways you can get people to do what you want them to do. I mean, there we can go to the extreme right.

00:15:46:16 - 00:16:12:19
Jonathan Clark
If you walk up to somebody, put a gun to their head and they do it, they do what they what you want them to do is that leadership know they're doing what you want them to do. But but I don't think anybody would call that leadership. And so we need to circumscribe, I think, what leadership is and differentiate it from other concepts like coercion, manipulation, domination.

00:16:12:19 - 00:16:36:05
Jonathan Clark
I mean, you can imagine it and a variety of other concepts, a variety of other ways that people can influence other people. And I think it's important for us to distinguish leadership from those things. Now, you mentioned Hitler. I think if you look at the history of Hitler's life, of course, like ultimately he was he did awful, horrible things.

00:16:36:07 - 00:16:48:03
Jonathan Clark
But I think, you know, in the course of his, acting, to, to bring about those things, he actually did demonstrate some leadership along the way.

00:16:48:07 - 00:16:50:19
Kevin Eikenberry
Or I think is a question, which is why I'm asking the question.

00:16:50:19 - 00:17:05:19
Jonathan Clark
Right. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Eventually he, he, he kind of morphed into very, very dumb and domineering kind of approach, very coercive. I think I would use the word evil.

00:17:05:20 - 00:17:26:14
Kevin Eikenberry
But that's not where he started. So that's I don't really want to go down that pan too far, but because you've, you've sort of answered the question, but, but as I think about the words coercion and domination, for example, then I and by the way, I'm not saying anyone who has led by a command and control of power over approaches necessarily.

00:17:26:14 - 00:17:36:20
Kevin Eikenberry
They're certainly. Does it mean that they're evil by any stretch? Right, right. And yet all those words are all are way more connected with power over than they are leading through.

00:17:36:22 - 00:17:55:08
Jonathan Clark
That's right. Yeah, that's that's absolutely right. And and you know, a point we hope comes across clear in the book is that a lot of the things that we describe as leadership nowadays, are not actually leadership in our view. They are coercion and domination and power.

00:17:55:08 - 00:17:56:21
Kevin Eikenberry
Over positional power and.

00:17:56:21 - 00:18:00:01
Jonathan Clark
Additional time. Yes. Yep, yep.

00:18:00:03 - 00:18:38:16
Kevin Eikenberry
So, I told you when we started, like, who knows where Kevin Kevin was taken. So I'm curious from your perspective because I think we we share a similar historical perspective here that for our lifetimes, we're roughly the same age ish. We get the same color hair. That that the, the, the working world, the those who do the work that we do to help leaders have been trying to move away from the command and control model and that societal leave we've been trying to move away from the command control model.

00:18:38:18 - 00:18:44:03
Kevin Eikenberry
Why why has it been so hard?

00:18:44:05 - 00:18:49:05
Jonathan Clark
Well, we've been trying to move away, or some people have been trying to move away for from it for more than a century. I mean.

00:18:49:05 - 00:18:50:01
Kevin Eikenberry
You.

00:18:50:03 - 00:19:09:16
Jonathan Clark
All the way back to Mary Parker Follett, you know, who was warning about the dangers of coercive leadership back in the 1920s? And yet this model has persisted, I think one one reason it has is that it it has been able to be successful in some ways.

00:19:09:18 - 00:19:11:13
Kevin Eikenberry
Or at least successful enough.

00:19:11:15 - 00:19:50:00
Jonathan Clark
It's successful enough. Exactly. Producing enough returns for shareholders, you know, producing, products that are useful and, and, and, and relatively inexpensive that people like to have, and, and so that that's one reason that it's perpetuated itself. The other reason is that that particular approach has infiltrate almost everything we do in society. So when you're, when you, when you, you know, talked about me being six years old, when I was six years old, I was in first grade.

00:19:50:02 - 00:20:01:11
Jonathan Clark
And when I was in first grade, nobody was teaching me leadership and initiative and creativity. And, you know, they were teaching me how to comply with authority.

00:20:01:13 - 00:20:02:14
Kevin Eikenberry
Raise your hand.

00:20:02:16 - 00:20:04:23
Jonathan Clark
Raise your hand. That's right, that's right.

00:20:04:23 - 00:20:23:21
Kevin Eikenberry
See all that stuff. Right? I mean, this is also is not meant to be an indictment of education. No, no, you're right. It's the word that comes to my mind is it's just it's been pervasive and it's and it's so seductive because once you have that position, it's like, well, it's it's working well enough. And by the way, I survived it that way.

00:20:24:03 - 00:20:28:07
Kevin Eikenberry
And so I guess it works. And so I guess that's what I'm supposed to do too.

00:20:28:09 - 00:20:38:22
Jonathan Clark
Yeah. People just think this is the way it works. And then they get into this mindset of, well, when is it going to be my turn? When is it going to be my turn to be in control?

00:20:39:00 - 00:20:47:16
Kevin Eikenberry
And then I call that I call that the hazing scenario. Right. Well, I had they I had to survive it, I survived it. Well they can do. Yeah. Right. Yep.

00:20:47:18 - 00:20:49:03
Jonathan Clark
Yep.

00:20:49:05 - 00:21:05:01
Kevin Eikenberry
So, we we've got to get, as promised in the open everybody, that we would get to both the heart and the mind of leadership. So, the the heart of leadership means what?

00:21:05:02 - 00:21:33:00
Jonathan Clark
Well, the heart is centered on, and understanding that thriving organizations are created by thriving people. You're not going to have a thriving organization if your people don't thrive. You might have an organization, you might be able to accomplish some things, but your organization's not going to rise to the level of something that we would say is thriving unless the people in your organization are thriving.

00:21:33:02 - 00:22:14:08
Jonathan Clark
And that takes that takes executives, leaders, colleagues who really care for each other and really recognize that, recognize the human element, involved in the organizing work. And that's what, you know, we've we've forgotten. I mean, I you know, I've been, you know, a long time since power over has been the dominant paradigm. And, and even though some elements of that paradigm have become a little bit softer and we, we focus a little bit more on the people, it's still, you know, work is still pretty depersonalized.

00:22:14:09 - 00:22:22:18
Jonathan Clark
And so the heart of leadership is really about putting people back at the center of work and back at the center of organizations.

00:22:22:20 - 00:22:49:09
Kevin Eikenberry
So I, I hinted at this in the open as well. Yeah. I said that the people that the people that have chosen to listen to this or to watch this, right, probably at some level are on board with what we're talking about, like, chances are, unless it's someone who's really struggled and say, I know I have to find another way, and they have found us for this conversation.

00:22:49:09 - 00:23:12:08
Kevin Eikenberry
I'm guessing, and even even for those people like the folks who are listening likely are saying, like, I'm with you, Jonathan. Like, I get this right, with you. So my question, though, is how give us a couple of tangible things and there's tons of it in the book. I know. Right? You talk about love and inspiration, vitality and expression.

00:23:12:08 - 00:23:29:22
Kevin Eikenberry
For example, live. But I'm give us a couple of examples of things that we could do differently or better to help lead thriving people so we can create a thriving organization.

00:23:30:00 - 00:23:44:12
Jonathan Clark
It starts with love. That's the first thing I would say. That's a very kind of abstract, generic term. And, and so when I say that, that's another word that actually gets a reaction.

00:23:44:14 - 00:23:47:23
Kevin Eikenberry
Oh yes, it does more when I use it.

00:23:48:01 - 00:24:18:12
Jonathan Clark
Love. Love gets a reaction as well. What I mean when I say love is I mean, really, really caring for people, giving people attention, giving people affection, real affection. Appreciation. Acceptance. Right. Helping people to experience those things. They don't really think about love in the workplace. But if we put it in those terms, acceptance, appreciation, affection, attention, then it becomes a little concrete.

00:24:18:12 - 00:24:36:22
Jonathan Clark
Oh, yeah, I can do that. I can I can pay more attention to my colleagues and their needs. I can show a little more appreciation for the things that people do for me every day and every single one of us at work. We depend on other people. There are other people who are helping us, every single day.

00:24:36:22 - 00:25:08:06
Jonathan Clark
They're they're, you know, enabling us to do our work and, and helping us to be better. And we can show, show appreciation for those people. And so that's what I mean when I use the word, the word love. And I think, I think everything else flows. It flows from that. It's really, you know, it's really an encouragement for people to, to make the wellness and success of other people the primary purpose of their work.

00:25:08:07 - 00:25:10:04
Kevin Eikenberry
Say that one more time.

00:25:10:05 - 00:25:21:09
Jonathan Clark
It's an invitation to make the wellness and success of other people the primary purpose of their work.

00:25:21:11 - 00:25:30:21
Kevin Eikenberry
If we take care of that, take care of them, the the chances that the the outcomes we want will be reached goes away. Yep.

00:25:30:23 - 00:25:31:12
Jonathan Clark
Yep.

00:25:31:14 - 00:25:53:06
Kevin Eikenberry
That's just where do you where do you start? Right. It's a question of where do you start. Yeah. So we talked about soul a little bit. We've talked about heart a little bit. And the third, the third component is the mind of leadership. So we're getting a little little less squishy now. But tell us a little bit more about that before we sort of start to to wrap up here.

00:25:53:11 - 00:26:03:00
Jonathan Clark
The the mind is what makes stuff happen, right? I mean, you can have all the soul you want, all the heart you want.

00:26:03:02 - 00:26:04:11
Kevin Eikenberry
To get something done with you.

00:26:04:11 - 00:26:34:22
Jonathan Clark
Don't know how to get stuff done. It's not going to work. It's not going to work. So the mind is really about, problem solving, opportunity, pursuing, decision making, team building, not knowing how to interact with other people in ways that get them moving. And we use, we use what we call the leadership process to frame the mind of leadership, to help people see that the mind of leadership is a process.

00:26:34:22 - 00:26:48:06
Jonathan Clark
It's not a nebulous thing that only a few people can come to understand. It's actually it's understandable. It's observable. It's repeatable, and it's teachable.

00:26:48:08 - 00:27:14:00
Kevin Eikenberry
I would agree with that 100%. So, I said at the front end that we wouldn't get to all of the book at all. And we've really focused on this, this front end piece of the book. And, and as all of us listening are practitioners, I'm presuming, of leadership, what's something and I know there's plenty.

00:27:14:00 - 00:27:27:19
Kevin Eikenberry
So it's going to be a little hard to prescribe that across everywhere. But what would be one thing that you would encourage everyone to do, think about or act on?

00:27:27:21 - 00:27:30:00
Jonathan Clark
There's so many I know.

00:27:30:02 - 00:27:34:18
Kevin Eikenberry
So whatever, whatever you're led to say, just go there because it won't be wrong.

00:27:34:20 - 00:27:55:15
Jonathan Clark
I, I would encourage people to focus on the soul of leadership and, and specifically on striving to do what is right, to do the right thing, to do the good thing because it's the right thing, even when it's hard.

00:27:55:17 - 00:28:12:15
Jonathan Clark
And that takes, that takes work. It takes effort to define what is it that I value? Who who am I? What kind of a person do I want to be? And then strive to be that person every day?

00:28:12:16 - 00:28:34:13
Kevin Eikenberry
Yeah, I would agree with that. I would agree with that. So, before we wrap up, you know, I there's I can probably count on a couple of hands the number of times I've gotten to this point in the conversation and felt like people all ready knew more about the guest than I think they know now about you.

00:28:34:13 - 00:28:59:22
Kevin Eikenberry
The nature of our conversation has has, sort of put you and who you are on display, and I mean that in the best possible way. But I, I would like for people to leave knowing a little bit more about you. So I've got a couple of questions that I ask everybody. And the first one is what do you do for fun?

00:29:00:00 - 00:29:02:12
Jonathan Clark
Less than I used to.

00:29:02:14 - 00:29:04:22
Kevin Eikenberry
What was that supposed to mean?

00:29:05:00 - 00:29:23:05
Jonathan Clark
I'm more busy than I used to be. Actually, you know, the thing I'm doing right now for fun is I'm coaching my son's football team. He's, He's nine years old. He's playing football for the first tackle. Football for the first time. Actually, all but two of the players on his team have never played football before.

00:29:23:07 - 00:29:40:19
Jonathan Clark
And I played football when I was younger. I played a little bit in college. I love the game and so it's really fun to teach, to teach this game to to nine year olds and watch them get better. We won our game on Saturday. After losing our first six games.

00:29:40:21 - 00:29:41:22
Kevin Eikenberry
Progress.

00:29:42:00 - 00:29:43:13
Jonathan Clark
Progress. And actually.

00:29:43:15 - 00:29:44:16
Kevin Eikenberry
There's a process.

00:29:44:20 - 00:29:47:13
Jonathan Clark
We won by three touchdowns. So yeah.

00:29:47:14 - 00:29:56:04
Kevin Eikenberry
We didn't just eke it out. That's good. So the other thing is, and really, the only thing you knew I was for sure going to ask you is, what are you reading? Jonathan?

00:29:56:06 - 00:30:27:05
Jonathan Clark
I've been reading McKay Coppins biography of Mitt Romney. The leading leader to me. Both because I think he's had a lot of courage and doing some things that go against his party's trends as a politician. But also because I, I know him personally. I grew up in the same town where he raised his family. I know his sons and, so I'm taking the opportunity to to get to know Mitt Romney a little bit better.

00:30:27:06 - 00:30:29:02
Kevin Eikenberry
From a slightly different lens, different.

00:30:29:02 - 00:30:30:07
Jonathan Clark
Perspective. Yeah.

00:30:30:09 - 00:30:49:23
Kevin Eikenberry
Well that's cool. That's awesome. We'll have that in the show notes for everybody. You can get a link to that. But we're also going to obviously give people a link to this book leading through activating the heart, soul and mind of leadership. Where do you want to point people, Jonathan. Where where can people learn more about your work?

00:30:50:01 - 00:30:55:09
Kevin Eikenberry
You and excuse me, you, dad. And this is work. This book. Like we're going to point people.

00:30:55:12 - 00:31:09:15
Jonathan Clark
While people can go to our website. We've got a website that introduces the books leading through eco. And of course, you can wherever your your favorite bookseller is, you can go there and and the book's available.

00:31:09:17 - 00:31:31:00
Kevin Eikenberry
It is and as of us having this conversation been available for a couple of weeks, which is really exciting. So, before we say goodbye, I need to ask a question of the group of the audience of all of you listening. It's the same question if you've been here before, you know what I'm going to ask you now, what what action are you going to take as a result of being here?

00:31:31:00 - 00:31:52:00
Kevin Eikenberry
What did you take from this that you won't just find sort of intellectually interesting, or stimulating, but rather, what action will you take as a result? Now, certainly both Jonathan and I would love for you to go get a copy of his new book. But beyond that, what ideas did you get today that you want to take some action on?

00:31:52:04 - 00:32:11:13
Kevin Eikenberry
Maybe there's action that you want to take around this idea of recognizing that your action is begetting the action of others, and is that how is that aligned with what you want? Maybe it's you were challenged to think about something that you need to be doing the right thing. And and that's been a struggle for you of late.

00:32:11:15 - 00:32:30:18
Kevin Eikenberry
Maybe it's this idea of leadership as a moral act. I don't know what it is. Those are just a few of the things that I wrote down. It doesn't matter what I wrote. It doesn't even matter what you wrote. What matters is what action that you take. Because as we said from the beginning, leadership is a verb, is something that we do.

00:32:30:23 - 00:32:45:14
Kevin Eikenberry
It's there's work here to do. And I hope that this show and every episode helps you do that work better. Jonathan, thanks so much for being here. It was such an absolute pleasure to have you. I've enjoyed our time a great deal better.

00:32:45:14 - 00:32:48:01
Jonathan Clark
Thank you Kevin, appreciate the opportunity.

00:32:48:03 - 00:33:08:16
Kevin Eikenberry
My pleasure. So everybody, if you like this, you better come back next week because we're going to be here again. And so you might as well join us. So wherever you're watching this from, make sure you subscribed. You are subscribed. And make sure you tell someone else to join us. Because if you do, you'll be continuing on your journey to be a more effective leader, to become perhaps even a remarkable leader.

00:33:08:18 - 00:33:13:21
Kevin Eikenberry
I hope that you will join us, then, for another episode of the Remarkable Leadership Podcast.