The Remarkable Leadership Podcast

00:00:08:05 - 00:00:40:07
Kevin Eikenberry
Autonomy and authority are often discussed when thinking about organizational effectiveness. There's another a word that is talked about far less agency. We will talk about all three of them today and how we as leaders can help develop more of them, especially agency in our organizations. Welcome to another episode of the Remarkable Leadership Podcast, where we are helping leaders grow personally and professionally to lead more effectively and make a bigger, positive difference for their teams organizations in the world.

00:00:40:11 - 00:01:01:15
Kevin Eikenberry
If you are listening to this podcast, you could join us in the future. Live on your favorite social channel. Not for this episode, obviously, but for those future episodes. And so you can do that and find out when those are happening so you can interact with us and get your questions answered sooner and all of those things by joining our Facebook or LinkedIn groups.

00:01:01:16 - 00:01:30:22
Kevin Eikenberry
Just go to remarkable podcast.com/facebook or remarkable podcast.com/linkedin to get connected with us. So you know when we're doing these so you can join us live. We'd love to have you. Today's episode is brought to you by my latest book, Flexible Leadership. Navigate Uncertainty and Lead with Confidence. It's time to realize that styles can get in our way and that following our strengths might not always be the best approach in a world that is more complex and uncertain than ever.

00:01:31:01 - 00:01:52:04
Kevin Eikenberry
Leaders need a new perspective and a new set of tools to create the great results their organizations and team members want and need. And that's what flexible leadership provides you. You can learn more and order your copy at Remarkable podcast. Dot com slash flexible. If you're watching, there's a picture of the book. Today's guests are Judith Katz and Fred Miller.

00:01:52:05 - 00:02:15:07
Kevin Eikenberry
I'm going to introduce them in a second. But first I'm going to bring them up here so you can see their smiling faces. There's Fred. There's Judith. Let me introduce them and then we'll dive in. For more than 50 years, Fred and Judith have been working individually and together on organizational and cultural transformation to create more inclusive and higher performance in workplaces.

00:02:15:08 - 00:02:58:03
Kevin Eikenberry
The Carlyle Jamison Consulting Group was started in 1970. Fred joined soon thereafter, and Judith joined the firm in 1985. Fred is the current CEO. Judith and Fred are both recipients of the OD Networks Lifetime Achievement Award, and have partnered with fortune 100 and other companies, universities, government agencies, municipalities and nonprofit organizations to create organizations which the level of interaction and safety elevates the quality of interactions, leverages people's difference differences, and transforms workplaces into growth and learning environments where all people's talents are unleashed, results are accelerated, and productivity soars.

00:02:58:05 - 00:03:21:11
Kevin Eikenberry
Their partnership is proof that teamwork and collaboration do create breakthroughs. They are multiple time bestselling authors, and their latest book is an award winner. It's a focus for our conversation today. It's called The Power of Agency Cultivating Autonomy, authority, and Leadership in Every role. Welcome to both of you. So glad you're here.

00:03:21:13 - 00:03:24:10
Fred Miller
Thank you. Kevin's really glad to be here with you.

00:03:24:12 - 00:03:26:19
Judith Katz
I'm happy to be here for sure. Thanks, Kevin.

00:03:26:21 - 00:03:43:18
Kevin Eikenberry
Glad to have you. And so, when we were before we went live, everybody, we were having a conversation. And Fred said he wanted to go first. So I'm going to ask Fred the first question. I'm just saying that's what he said. I don't know why he wanted to throw, but he said he did. So, I'm going to let.

00:03:43:20 - 00:04:03:21
Kevin Eikenberry
So I'm curious. I mean, obviously I gave the really high level, overview and journey of of where you how you guys have gotten here. I'm just curious. Tell us a little bit more, Fred, about the journey that brings you to this book and sort of the, the career arc for the two of you together.

00:04:03:23 - 00:04:27:07
Fred Miller
Oh, wow. Thank you. Thank you again. Thank you for having us here. You know, many, many years ago, in the ancient days, I was an internal employee of one of the insurance companies, Connecticut General Life Insurance Company, now called Cigna. And I was there in the 60s and 70s and seeing how organization was operating. And it was right out of the old organizational man thing.

00:04:27:07 - 00:04:49:18
Fred Miller
I was like, I mean, man, it was very much rigid, strict, no flexibility. Shut up. Unless somebody speaks to you. Once I said to one of my leaders, I asked a question and he asked me if I was being insubordinate. I mean, those were the days when things were tight and by the rules and by order, and you just shut up and digit job.

00:04:49:20 - 00:05:22:15
Fred Miller
I had opportunity while I was there to start doing some workshops that how people would be different in some odd consulting, organization development, consulting and start changing the organization as the times were changing. And in that process, I had a chance to get involved with training and education that really talked about a new way of operating, not as progressive as we are now, but for those days, it was a giant step, and I did that for 11 years there, and then I put in consulting and little Jamison joined her, and then she and I were partners until her death.

00:05:22:17 - 00:05:57:16
Fred Miller
And, we have, Judith and I have been working with many, many organizations. We learn a lot from our clients. And what we've seen most recently is that people feel very constrained in most organizations. Lots of rules, lots of processes. I have two clients now where if they go on to work on a project from start to when they're ready to execute, it could take months, months, six months, seven months, eight months, nine months, all of the approvals, all the checkers checking the checkered, everybody having to do something, everybody looking at it, sending it out for people's approval.

00:05:57:16 - 00:06:15:10
Fred Miller
And then they make comments on things that they they make comments on the first time slow. And I keep saying somewhat, it's not generative. AI is going to have our answer. So at least it's it's perspective on the world in a matter of minutes. And then we humans are going to take seven months to move through the process.

00:06:15:11 - 00:06:35:07
Fred Miller
I've of deciding that's the right answer and activating. It's not going to work. It's not going to work. We have to speed up our organizations, and you speed it up by including more people and having them, giving them to decision rates to make things happen in the organization, and not having to check or checking the check or checking the checker, which was true of my insurance company, literally.

00:06:35:07 - 00:06:50:05
Fred Miller
We had four people checking everything when I was inside organization. It's gone. We got knowledge workers in our organization. They're smart, they're good, and they can go a lot faster than we're able to go now. So some of that was part of the motivation for the book.

00:06:50:07 - 00:07:03:11
Kevin Eikenberry
Yeah. So so Judith, Fred has sort of laid the, the, the framework for the book in a way. But I'm curious from your perspective, why is this book so important right now?

00:07:03:13 - 00:07:29:14
Judith Katz
Oh my goodness. Well, you know, in some ways, the world that Fred described in terms of what he experienced in Connecticut general is almost some, some leaders trying to go back to that and some leaders trying to like say, you know, I'm going to control you. You have to be in the office. All of that. But what we saw after the pandemic was that people wanted to choose the way they worked, how they worked, where they worked and want more, say, more decision making, more autonomy.

00:07:29:15 - 00:07:48:21
Judith Katz
I'll never forget one of our clients, used to be who the CEO would make decisions about what color green and ad should be, and there were people at all levels who could make that decision. But talk about waste. And what we're seeing is more and more people want to have decision rights. They're smart. They want to bring their voice.

00:07:48:21 - 00:08:08:12
Judith Katz
They want to bring their ideas. We once went into a client where we were doing focus groups, and one of the women came in with, like, sheets of paper with all the ideas of things that she thought could be better for the organization, what would create betterment? And at some point in the interview, she she started sharing all of these.

00:08:08:12 - 00:08:30:22
Judith Katz
And we said, well, why haven't you shared these before? She said, nobody ever asked. And there's so much knowledge of so many great ideas that people have. There's so many creative solutions. What we're seeing is that they're staying, you know, if we want higher performance, we've got to be able to unearth those. And that's really what the book is about, is really having that individual and team agency to bring that voice.

00:08:31:00 - 00:08:38:15
Judith Katz
Which also means to your book, Kevin, that leaders that need a new set of tools to be able to unlock and are still all of that.

00:08:38:17 - 00:08:55:18
Kevin Eikenberry
So the key word and I said it in the open, everybody is the key word here and it's in the title. The book agency seems like the logical thing for us to do now is to make sure we all have the same clear, clear understanding of what that means. So when you say agency, what do you mean?

00:08:55:20 - 00:09:18:09
Judith Katz
So for us, the definition that we've been using is ensuring that all people, all roles, levels, tenure and identities have power, influence and voice to make decisions and make choices related to the jobs and the betterment of the organization. Agencies. And I do whatever I wanted to know. There are guardrails. There are ways in which we know what the processes are.

00:09:18:11 - 00:09:40:21
Judith Katz
But within that playground, I can play and so I can bring my decisions. I can have autonomy, I can have the authority to make those decisions. And when they have that, people then raise their voices in terms of sharing their ideas. They make better decisions because they feel like they're trusted. And so that's really the core. But it's you know, people have always had agency.

00:09:40:21 - 00:09:47:05
Judith Katz
Some people have always had agency in organizations. What we're saying is everybody having agency, whether you are.

00:09:47:07 - 00:09:48:13
Kevin Eikenberry
All people, is all.

00:09:48:13 - 00:10:02:18
Judith Katz
People, right. Exactly that. Whether you're on the front line, whether you're a, you know, individual contributor, a manager, a leader, whether you've been there for ten minutes or ten years, we really see that as people can bring and add value.

00:10:02:20 - 00:10:26:16
Kevin Eikenberry
So as I listen to that and you address this in the book, but I think it's worth us talking about briefly, some people listening closely to what you said might say, well, isn't that empowerment? So my question is how in your minds is this idea of agency we're talking about different from empowerment?

00:10:26:18 - 00:10:52:16
Fred Miller
You know, when I first start thinking about agency and kind of what it means, I was sitting in an airport and I was watching a young mother with her, a toddler, negotiating the airport. And we were sitting in the lounge area and as a toddler started to move around, the mother would stand in front of every danger to help the toddler not fall down the steps or run into the machine.

00:10:52:17 - 00:11:13:22
Fred Miller
And what struck me is human beings are born with agency. They're born with agency. They're born with quest and exploration and movement and curiosity. And our organization say, I'm not here. I'm not that here. I don't do that here. Don't be curious here. Just do your job. Don't bring that thinking here. Don't be out of the box here.

00:11:14:02 - 00:11:34:15
Fred Miller
Yeah, right. Tunnel vision. Right. And but when I watch that child moving around and that way them apparent was handling, I was like, we got it. But our organization say no. And so for us it's like if we can unleash that agency, you know, how our organization is going to move to the next level of performance, what's going to move them up?

00:11:34:17 - 00:11:55:10
Fred Miller
We're going to have generative AI. It's going to be going fast. We can't be the slow part. We how do we move up there? We got to give agency to everybody in the organization. We were working with a manufacturing organization that everybody that that manufacturing plant had been there 20 years. They still had first line supervisors. They didn't need supervisors anymore.

00:11:55:12 - 00:12:16:11
Fred Miller
They were experts in their job. We are micromanaging people that don't need to be micromanaging. We have knowledge workers in our organization that bring in brilliant city organization, and then we're smothering them. When we were working on the book, I probably should say, what's the opposite of agency? And Judith and I thought about a while and then we said, we know what we think it is smothering people.

00:12:16:13 - 00:12:22:13
Fred Miller
People feel smothered in our organizations. We have to unleash that in the organization.

00:12:22:15 - 00:12:43:09
Judith Katz
Yeah. And I would echo the other thing that, you know, you asked the question, Kevin, about empowerment versus agency. When I think that empowerment, a manager gives somebody empowerment, you know, I'm going to empower you. I think when, as Fred was saying about this baby thing, it's like, you know, it's it's inherent. So it's how do I unleash it versus I bestow it.

00:12:43:10 - 00:13:14:20
Judith Katz
And I think that's really where the differences are. Because, you know, some managers will empower their people, like share your ideas with me as opposed to implement your ideas. Don't have to share it with me. You can just go for it. And I think it's a subtle difference, but it's an important difference because we really see that that it's inherent and it's about unleashing it, supporting people to have that agency as opposed to I'm going to empower you and there's been a lot of empowerment work that was done in the 90s, for sure, which was important.

00:13:14:22 - 00:13:20:22
Judith Katz
But it's still there's a sense of control there that I think we're taking away in some ways.

00:13:21:00 - 00:13:42:10
Kevin Eikenberry
So you mentioned, Judith, that and I don't want to put words in your mouth. That would be unsanitary. But what I do want to do is ask you to follow up on something you said, and that is, you commented on in the in the post-Covid world, you know, and you were talking, I think you were sort of referring to the returning to the office stuff.

00:13:42:12 - 00:14:06:12
Kevin Eikenberry
So what is your sense, either of you, what is your sense about how how we're doing with agency? Sort of. So sort of across organizations. Right. Like our have things gotten is the trend the wrong direction now in a post-Covid world? I'm just curious what your thoughts are about that.

00:14:06:14 - 00:14:26:22
Judith Katz
For me, I'll start with something. I mean, it's a both because I think there are some organizations where, I mean, some of the return to office. We do believe that we have to create glue, and that people need to be engaging with each other on somewhat of a regular basis. I don't think it's five days a week, but I do think a couple of days a week or whatever.

00:14:27:02 - 00:14:50:07
Judith Katz
But doing it in a meaningful way, going to the office and everybody on zoom calls doesn't give you any benefit, except for the fact that the real estate is being paid for. So that to me is not the answer. I do think regardless of whether you're returning to office five days a week, two days a week, whatever people need meaning they need a new culture, we need to be in and intentional about that.

00:14:50:09 - 00:15:16:16
Judith Katz
And I think that some of the efforts that are going on right now are definitely moving in the wrong direction, are definitely saying, I'm going to micromanage you. You don't have voice, you don't have that, and I think we'll pay the price. I think organizations will not find themselves with the talent they need, with the abilities to to work as quickly as Fred has been talking about to be, people will not be all in with discretionary energy, and I think that's what we'll lose with that.

00:15:16:18 - 00:15:37:13
Judith Katz
I think they're still organizations, and we have some clients that are definitely seeing agency is critical to their success and are really experimenting with and seeing, creating those guardrails and creating that. I mean, I know one organization we were talking with, the HR person who is working on agency said, we have great strategies. We just can't implement them fast enough.

00:15:37:13 - 00:15:51:22
Judith Katz
We don't have the skills and the abilities for people to make decisions because they keep on driving the decisions up. I think those are the places where we're going to see agency being critical. So it's a both. Kevin, I don't think it's an either or.

00:15:51:23 - 00:15:53:23
Kevin Eikenberry
Go ahead. I was going, okay, go ahead.

00:15:54:01 - 00:16:14:13
Fred Miller
But and maybe the organization only needs to come together once a year, and maybe it's not 100% of the organization, but 50 or 60. But some critical mass of people need to come together. Human beings are social animals. We can only get some of that in this interaction we're having right now. We need to be in the same place, breathing air together, looking and being together.

00:16:14:15 - 00:16:28:22
Fred Miller
That discretionary energy, discretionary energy is what organizations need to go to the highest level of performance. If everybody just did their job description, you'd be a C, c plus maybe a, B minus. Organization organizations that experience.

00:16:28:22 - 00:16:36:00
Kevin Eikenberry
Us in the job description or maybe not me being a little bit optimistic. I think based on the things I've read. But your point.

00:16:36:04 - 00:16:58:18
Fred Miller
I'm moment a moment of optimism. But till people do that extra thing, that extra action, that's what makes organizations great. That's what organizations need to be great. And so how do you get discretionary energy? It's hard to get it on, on, on a platform like this. It's hard to get it when you're when you're on zoom and when you're not there with the person.

00:16:58:19 - 00:17:21:03
Fred Miller
It's no side interactions. It's that watercooler conversations. That is where I know who you are. Was at a conference once and it was a top leaders, 200 people of an organization, and they were, having a big, important conference. And I heard this side conversation and someone saying, you know, I'm really glad to have been on, I'm working, from home.

00:17:21:05 - 00:17:37:01
Fred Miller
And so this was their act. There was a meeting they were having after a couple of years and we said, you know, we actually one person talked the other where she thought you were mean. And we were always talking about we don't really like her and like, work with her, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But, you know, I believe you for a couple of days now.

00:17:37:06 - 00:17:59:22
Fred Miller
You're actually a nice person. I'm going to go back to the office and tell people you're a nice person, no matter what else happened at that conference that was worth the price of admission. That change is so significant, you can't get that. If we just stay on the medium of of being online like this. And so how do we get everybody has mean days.

00:17:59:22 - 00:18:17:21
Fred Miller
Everybody has their attitude days. Everybody has bad days. But if I'm around you, I can see the range of who you are and connect with the part of you that's going to help us do great work together. And that's what we have to have. And I'm not convinced we can get that enough through not, not being in person.

00:18:17:23 - 00:18:20:07
Kevin Eikenberry
Besides, until we meet, we don't even know how tall each other are.

00:18:20:10 - 00:18:22:03
Judith Katz
That's okay.

00:18:22:05 - 00:18:53:20
Kevin Eikenberry
So, so I, I want to ask a question because you guys, you're talking about voice and choice and and and discretion. Discretion, energy. I love all that. And, Judith, you made the comment that if the client that says we had this great strategy, but our folks don't have the skills. And then you went on, I want to go back to that because there's, there's, there's unleashing this in people and, you know, and we have it, we have the ability to have agency.

00:18:53:20 - 00:19:15:19
Kevin Eikenberry
I mean, we have the we have it within us, the potential to have agency. And yet, well, once we put that in the it's different than as a toddler walking around the airport, like when we get to the office or to work, whether it's at the office or not. There are skills here. So like, what are the let's talk to us about agency, not just not just let's unleash it.

00:19:15:19 - 00:19:36:15
Kevin Eikenberry
I mean, yes, there's guardrails, but not just let's unleash it, but what are the skills we need to put around this to help us be successful? Do it in the book you've got like this ten step process. We don't have time to get in all that. But but like, what are the skills here that we can be thinking about that we can take away?

00:19:36:17 - 00:19:55:20
Fred Miller
Sure. I heard your names. I was holding back. One is we have to you have said is Iraq have we got to build trust in our organizations? And how do we build trust and what are the interactions necessary for trust? People that need to know that they have choice around accomplishing a task that here's the book, do it by the book.

00:19:55:20 - 00:20:12:02
Fred Miller
Nothing but the book versus do it in a way that makes the most sense given today's realities and your know how. So how do you do continuous improvement, which we always talk about, but a lot of people don't feel like they have the agency to do improvement. I gotta do it the way that my boss did it all the way to other people do it.

00:20:12:04 - 00:20:29:22
Fred Miller
So I have that choice to do it. I we have to experiment in our organizations and people experience that tied to me in authority. That's how to me I some things I'm going to do alone and I'm going to do that independent of others. Some things I'm going to do independence with others and working with others and collaborating with others.

00:20:30:02 - 00:20:55:07
Fred Miller
So the interdependence becomes very important. I gotta have both of those competencies in order to function in a world that we're in right now, that I got to feel responsible for my output, it's hard to feel responsible for my output. When I got the checker. Checking the checker, checking the checker, I remember when I was at Connecticut General, I was I was on a group pension department, coding stuff or whatever it was, and I would make mistakes.

00:20:55:07 - 00:21:13:09
Fred Miller
And they had somebody checking me and somebody checking them. When they reduced the number of checkers, I made a few fewer mistakes. I think sometimes when people know there's a checking person, you might not be as rigorous about something as you would if, you know there's two people behind you that's doing it versus when you're doing it yourself.

00:21:13:10 - 00:21:35:03
Fred Miller
So people feeling responsible, I mean, what people for, as you just said before, we want people to feel like owners. They said, if this was my company, what I what would I do? I was with a group of probably a year ago now when they made this big proposal to, the senior leaders. And I was on the advisory board, and I was there and they were deciding whether we go big, go medium, or go small.

00:21:35:05 - 00:21:55:13
Fred Miller
And at the end of that presentation, which was outstanding, and I was like, yeah, they're going to say go big. They said, go small. And I was like, what? And so after some discussion, I said to them, I'm shocked. You said, go small or your presentation, that whole great stuff. Organizations go big. If this was your company, what would you do?

00:21:55:15 - 00:22:15:22
Fred Miller
And I went around the table, go big, go big, go big. Every one of them said go big. But the culture, what he thought the leaders would react and what they wanted if they were big. That leaders would see them as not not doing the right thing, making the right decision, or being diligent enough. This is how much is that happening in our organizations?

00:22:16:00 - 00:22:19:13
Kevin Eikenberry
They were taking a trip to Abilene. I bet you guys know that.

00:22:19:15 - 00:22:20:15
Judith Katz
Absolutely.

00:22:20:17 - 00:22:34:20
Kevin Eikenberry
For all of you that are listening, you're going to have to Google that. The Abilene paradox. But basically everyone thought everyone else thought something. So everyone said, let's just go small because I'm sure everyone else thinks we should go small and safer.

00:22:34:20 - 00:22:35:08
Judith Katz
But I just.

00:22:35:08 - 00:22:57:11
Kevin Eikenberry
Want to say something real quick to all of you listening or watching and what Fred just did as a facilitator or as a leader or as a leader, facilitating, of going around in that way is really powerful, because that's one of the ways that shows that you're trusting each each person to share and making it safe for them to share.

00:22:57:13 - 00:23:05:16
Kevin Eikenberry
So what did they do? You got to finish the story after they said, go small, you go and everyone says all the chips in the table, what did they end up doing?

00:23:05:18 - 00:23:26:13
Fred Miller
So I start talking about what they did initially was playing small ball versus big ball. And that's some thought terms they use and think. So instead of going for a home run, they start trying to go for a single or at least not strike out. And so in the organization, they start talking about playing big ball that we got to stop playing big ball.

00:23:26:13 - 00:23:33:20
Fred Miller
We got to start not thinking small. We got to think bigger. And so that bringing that into the way that they're operating.

00:23:33:22 - 00:23:54:00
Kevin Eikenberry
So we can talk about skills. But before we get to skills there's something else that has to happen. And so I think that well, so first of all, those of you that are listening, probably are right on board with Judith and Fred and they're saying, yeah, that's exactly what we ought to be doing. And yet and even many people would probably say that.

00:23:54:00 - 00:24:14:20
Kevin Eikenberry
And then that's not what's happening. It's not what's actually happening. And so I guess the question I have is, what's the biggest mindset shift? Like, what's the biggest mindset shift that needs to happen for us as an organization to move in the direction of agency like you're describing?

00:24:14:21 - 00:24:38:09
Judith Katz
All right. I mean, I mean, one of the things I would go first know, one of the things that I think is critical and Fred started with this is trusting your people and knowing that you've got the right people there because if you don't trust people, then you're going to keep on second guessing them. And it's interesting because we work with a wonderful CEO of a of a family owned company, $3 billion family owned.

00:24:38:09 - 00:25:05:15
Judith Katz
And one of the things is there are times where we have to coach the CEO about either you've got the right people or you don't, but you've got to make a decision about that because that's where it starts. And once you trust people, then you can open that up. But fear control, like I can do it better. You know, all of those mindsets that leaders have is what keeps people from not being able to bring their voice, from not being able to bring their contribution.

00:25:05:17 - 00:25:16:05
Judith Katz
And, you know, in many ways, leaders are there to protect the company or the organization. But sometimes that protection actually undermines the very success that they're looking for.

00:25:16:07 - 00:25:44:09
Fred Miller
And I'm worried I'm worried about our organizations on many levels. And I, I think, how do we keep talent in our organizations? I'm not sure not being together periodically with Preach the Glue. We need to be together to create that glue that has people come in. It was always a bad idea when people came to work, when they were sick, because they didn't want to let their team members down, but it was a statement about commitment, was a statement about a commitment inside of the organization.

00:25:44:11 - 00:26:04:04
Fred Miller
I also joke about the fact that the generation that's in the organization now and and when coming in, their parents still have their bedroom waiting for them, or a single parent parent has their bedroom waiting for them. When I left home, I was never going back. No matter what, I'd be on the street before I go back. You have a whole generation that has an option up.

00:26:04:06 - 00:26:29:17
Fred Miller
I can go home and go and create a business on eBay and be okay. I don't need to be here. So I'm worried about our organizations. If they don't change, they're not going to keep talent. And we see everybody is having talent. I don't care what your role is, they're not going to keep the talent they need. If the organizations don't train and really play to that talent built for that talent, support that talent, give agency to that talent that's going to keep people there.

00:26:29:17 - 00:26:50:07
Fred Miller
Other than that, they're not like me. Oh, I'm going to stay and stuff it out for five years or six years. They're like, today's hasn't changed. I'm out of here. Organizations have to be different and get different and do it quickly if they're going to keep being winners, because our winners will no longer be winners if they don't have the talent they need to be successful.

00:26:50:09 - 00:26:53:07
Kevin Eikenberry
Do you think it looks like you were going to say something?

00:26:53:09 - 00:27:17:07
Judith Katz
No. I mean, basically I agree with Fred. I mean, I think that the big the bottom line is that control fear does not lead to winning. And I think those are the things that, you know, when an organization is clamping down, you're going to get that limited ability to contribute. And you know, I think and again, so many people are doing side gigs because that's where they're fulfilled.

00:27:17:09 - 00:27:34:12
Judith Katz
And I think that's, you know, how much energy am I taking when I'm working on, on second job or third job? Because my primary job is not giving me any kind of, feedback or support that I really want. I think that's the world we're in and there's some of it, of course, is a gig economy because of economics.

00:27:34:14 - 00:27:38:01
Judith Katz
But there's all the things about fulfillment that people are wanting as well.

00:27:38:03 - 00:28:03:00
Fred Miller
We were working with a leader that was commissioning a task force to look at some things in the organization as it just changes. And as he commissioned them, he said, I want to tell you right now, I am wanting to say yes to whatever recommendations you come up with. Assume that I'm going to say yes. And so when you are going and thinking about what you're going to do, and maybe I should do this because he's not going to be okay with that, or the leaders is not going to that.

00:28:03:02 - 00:28:23:07
Fred Miller
I am coming back to you all when you're coming to recreation thinking, yes. And six months they worked on it. They came back to him and he was true to his word. He said yes to all their recommendations. What does that do for a group of people? What does that do in an organization as that's turned around? Hey, you can bring forth your best thinking and see how it's going to support you.

00:28:23:09 - 00:28:40:08
Fred Miller
My goodness, what have we unleashed in that organization when people say like versus, oh, you're going to go in to see the senior executives? Well, you know, they're going to be hard on you. You know, they're going to see try to see what you didn't do. And right. And so you better place small ball. You better play small ball when you go in there if you want to be successful.

00:28:40:13 - 00:28:45:10
Fred Miller
Because if you go too big, they're going to just see you as wild eyed, thinking person.

00:28:45:12 - 00:29:07:01
Judith Katz
The only other thing about that story, Fred, that I love, is that a lot of people are concerned about those people who are involved in that task because they had so many other jobs, because of the responsibilities that they had. And these people found the time, the energy, the the wherewithal to be involved in this task because they were unleashed, because they knew that they would be a yes.

00:29:07:03 - 00:29:17:09
Judith Katz
Because they weren't feeling like they were wasting their energy, but in fact, they were giving energy in their thinking to something where they would actually could make a difference. And I think that's the core. That's the core.

00:29:17:11 - 00:29:34:15
Kevin Eikenberry
Discretionary energy and effort, which is where we were earlier. I'm going to shift gears and a couple more things I want us to do before we finish. And, I really I'm going to shift gears. So I'm curious. I'll start with Judith. What Judith do you do for fun?

00:29:34:16 - 00:29:38:07
Judith Katz
Oh, you ask the right question. Well, you know, I am. I'm kind of, like, similar.

00:29:38:07 - 00:29:42:04
Kevin Eikenberry
Okay, we only have a few minutes.

00:29:42:06 - 00:29:58:07
Judith Katz
I love to fish. So you put me with a fishing rod on a boat. I am happy, whether it's striper fishing or red fishing or trout. I'm going to Louisiana in April to do some trout and redfish fishing. That's my thing. That gets me happy.

00:29:58:09 - 00:30:01:01
Kevin Eikenberry
Red, what do you do for fun?

00:30:01:03 - 00:30:30:18
Fred Miller
I love my work. I love the work that I'm doing. I love the clients we interact with. They pick us, we pick them, they pick first. I love the fact that I see people grow and develop. So that's my big thing. In addition to that, go to the Outer Banks of North Carolina and Seattle and look at the ocean and just sit on a deck and take in the ocean, wind and the ocean sounds and be there with my family and just enjoy that and then read a good book.

00:30:30:20 - 00:30:41:00
Kevin Eikenberry
So you're not fishing when you're at the on the water. Well, she is. And so since you mentioned a book, Fred, what are what's something you're reading now or I've read recently.

00:30:41:02 - 00:31:00:06
Fred Miller
The book that I'm reading that is called the No Rules rules written by the, one of the leaders of Netflix, Reed Hastings, and coauthored with Erin Meyers. It is great. He's pushing back. They are pushing back on a lot of the things like, you know, oh, if you give people unlimited vacation time, they're going to go crazy.

00:31:00:10 - 00:31:19:19
Fred Miller
Not true. And in our firm, we give people unlimited vacation time. You know, they got a lot of things that they push back. Expense accounts act like we said before, act like an owner, treat the money on your expect that you have to expense as if an owner. And we're going to trust you with that periodically we'll audit it, but on your own basically on your own.

00:31:19:21 - 00:31:24:06
Fred Miller
Just a lot of things. I just neat stuff that's right for today's world.

00:31:24:08 - 00:31:25:04
Judith Katz


00:31:25:06 - 00:31:26:14
Kevin Eikenberry
Judith what are you reading these days.

00:31:26:19 - 00:31:52:10
Judith Katz
So I just finished the Covenant of Water. All thousand pages of it which I loved. We talked about family in India and, the generations and some of the challenges of this family, and what they went through and, and the whole. It was just wonderful. Viegas is a wonderful, author. I've read several of his books, so I'm much more reading kind of fiction, kind of get me away from this reality.

00:31:52:10 - 00:31:54:06
Judith Katz
I wanted a.

00:31:54:08 - 00:32:09:22
Kevin Eikenberry
Right. So now the question that, I mean, we have been talking with you is Katz and Fred Miller, the authors of The Power of Agency. And I'll hold it up here. But you. Why don't you tell me? Tell us where can we get connected with you, where do you want to point us, etc.? Where they get the book.

00:32:09:22 - 00:32:13:01
Kevin Eikenberry
Whatever you want, tell us. Now's the chance.

00:32:13:03 - 00:32:29:21
Fred Miller
Of the connect. Our firm is K Jcg K Jcg consulting group.com, and you can reach us there and talk to us there and tell us what you're learning and what you're reacting to. That's the easiest way to get in contact with us. Judith, anything else you want to add to?

00:32:29:21 - 00:32:40:23
Judith Katz
Yeah, you can get the power of agency either through Barrett call or a publisher or Amazon, or your local bookstore. I believe if you ask them for it, I'm sure they'll find it for us. So for you, it's a great book.

00:32:40:23 - 00:33:09:15
Fred Miller
It's not a long read. It's a quick read. And in the back of the book, we have a lot of self-assessments, the individual self assessing where you are around agency in the organization. And I had a group and then we talk about the manager. What is a manager doing what a senior lead is doing. I just had a workshop with like 100 people and had each preaching come in with their parts of their job description and a job description of people that report to them and look for opportunities to increase agency among their reports.

00:33:09:17 - 00:33:16:21
Fred Miller
They loved it, and they were going back to their organizations and and discussing and negotiating releasing agency in the organization.

00:33:16:23 - 00:33:39:10
Kevin Eikenberry
Awesome k j c g.com the Power of Agency is the book I got a question for. I'll give you the full title, everybody The Power of Agency Cultivating Autonomy, authority and Leadership in Every role. Before we go, I have a question for all of you who are listening or watching. So same question I ask every single episode, and that is this.

00:33:39:10 - 00:33:53:11
Kevin Eikenberry
Now what? What are you going to do with this? What action are you going to take? Are you going to think about where in your organization you're playing small ball? Are you going to think in your in you for your organization about where control and fear are getting in the way? I don't know what those things are for you.

00:33:53:11 - 00:34:14:04
Kevin Eikenberry
There's all sorts of things that we talked about. There's all sorts of notes that I took. If you're watching and see my blue pen. But the most important question is this one, what are you going to do with what you learned? Because just learning it and just enjoying it. While we hope both of those are true, neither of those things will change anything for you or your organization.

00:34:14:04 - 00:34:38:09
Kevin Eikenberry
So I hope that you will think about that. Fred and Judith, thanks so much for being here. It was a pleasure to have you and to have this conversation. I've been looking forward to it and for all of you, if you enjoyed this, make sure you tell someone to come listen. And if you are listening for the first time, make sure you follow, subscribe, whatever you need to do it on whatever platform you're on.

00:34:38:09 - 00:34:46:10
Kevin Eikenberry
So you come back because we'll be back next week, as we do every week with another episode of the Remarkable Leadership Podcast. Thanks everybody.