The Remarkable Leadership Podcast

00:00:08:19 - 00:00:34:08
Kevin Eikenberry
If you've been listening to this podcast for a while, you likely know two things. First, that I have a new book coming out soon March the 25th, because if you've been listening, I've been mentioning it. And second, that when you are here, I bring on guests to talk about their big ideas and often typically about their books. Well, today's episode is a bit different.

00:00:34:13 - 00:01:01:10
Kevin Eikenberry
Rather than me asking questions about someone else's ideas, today I have a very special guest who will be asking me those kinds of questions rather than the other way around. Welcome to a very special episode of the Remarkable Leadership Podcast. We are where we are helping leaders grow personally and professionally, to lead more effectively and make a bigger, positive difference for their teams, organizations and the world.

00:01:01:15 - 00:01:20:14
Kevin Eikenberry
If you are listening to this podcast in the future, you could join us live on your favorite social media channel. I hope that you will think about doing that. You can find out how you can do that, when you can do that, and get some other cool insider stuff sometimes about the podcast by joining our Facebook or LinkedIn groups.

00:01:20:16 - 00:01:47:15
Kevin Eikenberry
Just go to remarkable podcast.com/facebook or remarkable podcast.com/linkedin to do exactly that. Today's episode is brought to you by my next book, Flexible Leadership. Navigate Uncertainty and Lead with Confidence. It's time to realize that styles can get in our way, and that following our strengths might not always be the best approach in a world that is more complex and uncertain than ever.

00:01:47:21 - 00:02:08:16
Kevin Eikenberry
Leaders need a new perspective and a new set of tools to create the great results that our organizations and teams want and need. And that's what flexible leadership provides you. You can learn more and get your copy at remarkable podcast.com/flexible. And now let me bring in my very special guest. I will introduce her to you and we will get started.

00:02:08:16 - 00:02:34:06
Kevin Eikenberry
Her name is Julie Winkle Julian. And if you know Judy, if you know Julie, please say in the comments that you know Julie. And if you don't, you're going to be glad that you do. In a minute. She is a champion for workplace growth and development, helps executives and leaders optimize talent and potential within their organizations. She's been named as one of Inc Magazine's top 100 speakers.

00:02:34:08 - 00:03:11:12
Kevin Eikenberry
She's the author of promotions. So yesterday Redefining Career Development Help and Help Employees Thrive. As the coauthor of the international bestseller that's in. I don't know how many editions now, and it's translated in seven languages. You've probably heard of it. Help them grow or watch them go. Career conversations organizations need and employees still want. She's a regular columnist for Training Industry Magazine and Smart Brief, and contributes articles on leadership, career development and more to numerous numerous publications, including Fast Company and The Economist.

00:03:11:14 - 00:03:28:02
Kevin Eikenberry
You can keep up with her through her LinkedIn or buy her on her blog at Julie Winkle Julian, which we'll show to you a little later as well. And so, Julie, here's the deal. I'm going to hand ceremonially ceremonial.

00:03:28:02 - 00:03:28:23
Julie Winkle Giulioni
Ready.

00:03:29:00 - 00:03:35:05
Kevin Eikenberry
The mic to you. And, you're in charge. Thanks so much for doing this. I'm so glad that you're here.

00:03:35:07 - 00:03:47:10
Julie Winkle Giulioni
Oh my gosh, Kevin, this is such an honor. I have to say, to be able to turn the tables and ask you the questions. So. Thank you. You don't know what I might say here, though. I have.

00:03:47:10 - 00:03:47:21
Kevin Eikenberry
No idea.

00:03:47:21 - 00:03:48:22
Julie Winkle Giulioni
You know, like, you.

00:03:48:22 - 00:04:04:10
Kevin Eikenberry
Know, working without a net. Everyone, you know, like, it's one thing to be on other people's podcast, which I'm doing all the time. I've done several this week, and we're doing lots of leading up to the book, but like, it feels, it just feels a little different. When, it's on my show.

00:04:04:10 - 00:04:06:23
Julie Winkle Giulioni
So yeah, I'm sitting down.

00:04:07:01 - 00:04:08:10
Kevin Eikenberry
So I'm ready.

00:04:08:12 - 00:04:42:10
Julie Winkle Giulioni
I am loving this. And you don't have to worry. As you well know, I am a huge fan of your work. And needless to say, I love your new book, Flexible Leadership. It reflects the trade. Oh well done. The you know, your trademark characteristics. You know, it's it's rich, it's reality based. It's actionable. What I so appreciate, though, is the the structure that you have brought to what's really kind of an amorphous, loosey goosey concept, you know, which is flexibility.

00:04:42:10 - 00:04:49:05
Julie Winkle Giulioni
And so I have so many questions. You know, we could go on probably for days we want we'll keep it. We'll keep it.

00:04:49:05 - 00:04:52:00
Kevin Eikenberry
Probably a good idea for everyone's.

00:04:52:02 - 00:04:52:21
Julie Winkle Giulioni
But I do it all.

00:04:52:21 - 00:04:54:20
Kevin Eikenberry
Meeting at 1:00 after all.

00:04:54:22 - 00:05:14:12
Julie Winkle Giulioni
All right, all right. Well, we'll get you, we'll get you out by then. But I also want to leave this space for our audience to share questions as well. So I'm going to get started and, and get the ball rolling. But please, if you've got questions for Kevin and I can't imagine you don't make sure to to get those in chat.

00:05:14:18 - 00:05:20:02
Julie Winkle Giulioni
And we'll bring those to the floor as well. All right. Kevin, are you ready?

00:05:20:04 - 00:05:21:04
Kevin Eikenberry
I'm ready.

00:05:21:06 - 00:05:50:04
Julie Winkle Giulioni
All right. So the the big idea, the big goal of your book really is to help leaders see complexity to to embrace it, to operate within it without losing their heads. You use that expression. I love that so much. So I'm curious, what are you seeing? You know, in terms of how complexity generated head losing is playing out in the workplace and what impact is with having.

00:05:50:06 - 00:06:08:15
Kevin Eikenberry
Well, you know, I think whether you want to use the word complexity or you want to use the word uncertainty, I think we all are feeling it. You know, most people are saying, well, the world is changing faster than ever. There's more uncertainty than ever. And I'm not sure that we can say that with certainty because we've not lived in another time.

00:06:08:19 - 00:06:57:05
Kevin Eikenberry
And yet I think it's pretty safe to say that if it's not the most, it's plenty. And so, you know, it to many of us. And I'll say that whether we're thinking about ourselves with our leader hat on or not, that, too many of us, when we look at uncertainty and we sense uncertainty, we either don't know what to do and so we try to ignore it, which doesn't help us or we don't, or we just try to power through it and do what we're used to doing, or what our natural habits are, or we, or we, we really don't do anything like we know it's there, but we're trying to

00:06:57:05 - 00:07:16:11
Kevin Eikenberry
find an answer and we don't have an answer. And so we are immobilized by it. And the thing is, Julie, none of those are the best next step for something that that the uncertainty is real. We can't wish it away. It's not going anywhere. So we need to as leaders and as humans, acknowledge that and say, okay, now what do we do?

00:07:16:13 - 00:07:17:18
Kevin Eikenberry
Given that.

00:07:17:19 - 00:07:44:15
Julie Winkle Giulioni
Yeah, yeah, well, I want to dig into this notion of uncertainty. I mean, it's right there prominently in your subtitle and you share some fascinating research early on in the book about uncertainty. And I wonder if you could you talk just a little bit about sort of the, the insidious nature of it and the problems that uncertainty causes for folks and organizations.

00:07:44:17 - 00:08:06:13
Kevin Eikenberry
Well, I'm guessing most of you can come up with the with the problems that it causes. Right? But I, I was doing a webinar yesterday and I asked people in the in the chat, I said, so tell me, which is which is worse uncertainty or fear? And like 90% of the people said fear. And yet the research also says, well, not so fast, right?

00:08:06:13 - 00:08:30:10
Kevin Eikenberry
Like all of the research says that given the choice between something that's uncertain and something that's certain, we will pick the certain even if it involves electric shocks. Right. So here's a here's a little research. The research is that, you're in one of two groups, and you're going to be glad that you weren't actually in one of these two groups when Daniel Ellsberg did this research in, I think, 1992.

00:08:30:12 - 00:08:51:14
Kevin Eikenberry
It's sort of famous stuff. He had two groups of people. And imagine you're in one of these two groups of people, you know, you volunteered for this, and you're going to get electric shocks, strong electric shocks, not like, not like life altering, but strong electric shocks. You're going to get 20 of them, and half of the people get 20 of them.

00:08:51:14 - 00:09:23:19
Kevin Eikenberry
And all of them are of equal strength. And they're relatively strong. And the other group of people get 20 electric shocks, 17 of which are that same strength. But three of them randomly, intermittently across the other 17 are less strong. They're moderate in nature. And the research says that people would say they were under more stress and had higher anxiety when they didn't know than when they were all the same.

00:09:23:21 - 00:09:33:22
Kevin Eikenberry
And and so even though the thing that we were getting wasn't fun and might have been painful, that was better than not knowing.

00:09:34:00 - 00:09:35:16
Julie Winkle Giulioni
Yeah, yeah.

00:09:35:18 - 00:10:05:18
Kevin Eikenberry
And so here's a here's a decidedly non research based version of this okay. Like chances are you've all seen the movie The Wizard of Oz. And if you if you were like me when I was a kid and never got past the flying monkeys, I'm going to give you there's a little spoiler alert here, but but if you've watched to the end of the movie, you get to this point where Dorothy and her little troupe are in this big room, and there's this flashing green thing on the wall, and this booming voice is speaking to them.

00:10:05:18 - 00:10:27:18
Kevin Eikenberry
It's the great and powerful Oz, and they are literally all shaking, right? They're fearful, but they're uncertain. They don't know what's going to happen next. But Toto the dog doesn't really care and sees this little curtain over there pulls down the curtain with the with his teeth, his or her teeth. And there's this little dude with a megaphone back there screaming.

00:10:27:23 - 00:10:51:09
Kevin Eikenberry
And that's the great and powerful Oz. And so once we know, then suddenly the anxiety goes away, right? But until we know when we're not sure, like we'd rather have some assurance, we'd rather have some some certainty. And the reality, as in the world that we're in, we're trying to find that in our leadership roles, and it's just not really there.

00:10:51:15 - 00:10:57:19
Kevin Eikenberry
So we got to figure out how to go through it, go past it, and not wish try to wish it away.

00:10:57:21 - 00:11:13:05
Julie Winkle Giulioni
Yeah. It's kind of the devil, you know, even though it's the devil. Yeah. You know it. Yeah. Fascinating. I did that passage. Really caught my attention. Made me wonder what those people getting electrical shocks were getting as compensation.

00:11:13:05 - 00:11:19:13
Kevin Eikenberry
Well, and they got paid something, but they don't make us, like, $20, so, I don't know. I have no idea what.

00:11:19:15 - 00:11:23:21
Julie Winkle Giulioni
I would sign up for that one. Okay, so let me be you might.

00:11:23:21 - 00:11:31:14
Kevin Eikenberry
Have in college like, you know, you're right, it's that or giving your plasma. You got to pick.

00:11:31:16 - 00:12:02:23
Julie Winkle Giulioni
Your right a different time. I'm going to be a little provocative here and and, challenge you so I think a lot of people are wondering, how do you square this idea of leadership flexibility with the consistency, the conviction that's really required to respond to, you know, today's environment, high demands, a high expectations of customers, uncompromising workplace.

00:12:03:01 - 00:12:05:07
Julie Winkle Giulioni
How do you square those two?

00:12:05:09 - 00:12:25:06
Kevin Eikenberry
You know, that's an important question. In many ways. It might be the core question of the book, because if you if you as an individual don't get past that, then you're gonna say, well, like, what's the point of this book? Right? Like I'm trying to make the case at, say, flexibility is quite honestly, the anecdote for this uncertainty.

00:12:25:08 - 00:12:50:05
Kevin Eikenberry
And so we have to we have to look at this thing like, aren't leaders supposed to be consistent? Aren't they supposed to be stable? Aren't they supposed to be like a known quantity? Aren't we supposed to have give people something that they can lean into and know what they're getting? Well, I want you to I can look out my window and see a tree, but I want you to imagine a tree in your mind's eye right now if you can't see one.

00:12:50:07 - 00:13:15:08
Kevin Eikenberry
And the first thing you'd say about a tree is it is stable, it is firm. It is solid, right. And it's solid because it's rooted right. And those roots keep it stable, solid, consistent, etc. but you don't have to look at the tree for very long to realize that it's also flexible. The branches are moving in the breeze or in the wind.

00:13:15:14 - 00:13:43:15
Kevin Eikenberry
And in fact, without the the pliability of the branches, the tree can't really survive either. So the question that you ask is an important one. Julie, that aren't we supposed to be consistent? Aren't we supposed to be stable and solid as a rock? Yeah. Don't we also have to be flexible? Yes. So like a tree, we have to be rooted.

00:13:43:20 - 00:14:14:02
Kevin Eikenberry
We have to be rooted in our principles and in our values and in the mission of our organization. Like, those things aren't changing. That's where the stability comes from. But we must be flexible in how in our approach to leading. And if we say, well, I lead this way because that's my style type, then we're where I, we're now identifying with something and keeping us from flexing.

00:14:14:02 - 00:14:33:13
Kevin Eikenberry
So the big idea under all of that, Julie, is that, it's not about should we be flexible or consistent, but we must be both. A flexible leader doesn't think about the world in an either or way, but in a both and way. Yeah.

00:14:33:15 - 00:14:52:03
Julie Winkle Giulioni
Yeah. It's a great metaphor. And and it leads to one of my favorite quote there. Lots of great quotes in your book, but one that I really love is you say you are more than a style, a strength, or a type. Can you say a few more words about that?

00:14:52:05 - 00:15:13:02
Kevin Eikenberry
Yeah, I sure can. You know, people, you and I have been in this world of leadership development for a long time, and we're we're also both, blessed to know some of the people that have been at it longer than us. And, you know, smart people whose shoulders we sit on have been working to help make leaders more effective for a very long time.

00:15:13:02 - 00:15:37:22
Kevin Eikenberry
And one of the things they've done is build assessments and style types and, and all those sorts of things, strengths and all those sorts of things and all of those things are useful until they're not right. And here's the thing about any of those models, the reason they're useful is because as human beings, we are great at recognizing patterns.

00:15:38:00 - 00:16:11:07
Kevin Eikenberry
And so if we can take something that's really complex, like human behavior, and simplify it a little bit, then the pattern recognition can help us see those patterns that can help us be more effective. However, none of those models were designed for them. For then, for us to like further simplify them, right? The models themselves already take out some of the nuance of complexity and and so what people then do is say, well, I'm a I'm a this right.

00:16:11:07 - 00:16:29:06
Kevin Eikenberry
If you're a Myers-Briggs, I'm an ENFP or I'm in Desc, well, I, I'm a high or like it didn't matter which thing you which thing you pick or these are my strengths or I'm a facilitative leader. Like we could go right on down the list. The thing is, once we've done that, once we've said, that's who I am.

00:16:29:08 - 00:16:53:17
Kevin Eikenberry
We've taken all of the nuance out and we've and we've made it our identity. And you are more than a letter. You're more than a style. You're more than, than a a composite view. And yet, too often unintentionally, the models that we've created to help have gotten in the way because people now have limited their view to say, well, this is me.

00:16:53:20 - 00:16:56:04
Kevin Eikenberry
This makes sense, right?

00:16:56:06 - 00:17:09:15
Julie Winkle Giulioni
Yeah. Yeah, that's the problem. Yeah, absolutely. You know, it's, it reminds me a strength. Overuse becomes a liability, a style overuse becomes a liability as well.

00:17:09:17 - 00:17:12:07
Kevin Eikenberry
100%. Yeah.

00:17:12:09 - 00:17:34:08
Julie Winkle Giulioni
So let's talk context for a bit. It clearly plays a key role in leadership flexibility. And so I'm curious what are some practical ways that leaders can quickly kind of suss out the situation, assess what's going on and determine the best leadership approach.

00:17:34:10 - 00:18:00:01
Kevin Eikenberry
Yeah. In the in the book we talk about a model called the Canevin framework, which is not mine originally. Take someone's far smarter than me to create this framework. A gentleman named Dave Snowden. And and what I've done is, is tried to be really true to it, and unfortunately have to simplify it a little bit, in order for us to use it like a map.

00:18:00:03 - 00:18:26:18
Kevin Eikenberry
Right. Because the reality is that we need to know, as leaders. Well, let's just do this. I love maps like a map. Not the thing that's on my phone. That's when I hit that Google Maps thing and I say, here's where I'm going. Then it starts telling me what to do, which is fine, and it's useful in its place.

00:18:26:18 - 00:18:47:10
Kevin Eikenberry
Right? In 400ft. Turn here. Or if I'm driving faster in a quarter of a mile, turn left. Like that's helpful. But I have no I have no perspective from that. And as leaders, we have to have more perspective in that. As leaders, we have to be looking at a bigger picture, which means having a map to say, okay, what's what's the what's the landscape here?

00:18:47:15 - 00:19:11:17
Kevin Eikenberry
What's going on here are all of the things we're doing here known and knowable. And a best practice will actually work here. Well, 40 years ago, best practice of even 25 years ago, best practices were all the rage because things were pretty stable. We pretty much knew the knowable things like building processes and following those processes got us a long way.

00:19:11:20 - 00:19:33:07
Kevin Eikenberry
But when the context isn't that clear anymore, when we look at the map and say, well, it's not quite going to get us there, like that's the problem that I had all after the pandemic. Julie, which was, well, now we've got to build a policy and a policy is built around, well, we know things are stable and like we can build a policy because this is what we got.

00:19:33:07 - 00:20:00:09
Kevin Eikenberry
And so now we have a policy. And a policy is fine in a stable, clear context, but in a complicated or in a complex context. We should be trying stuff. We should be doing what I say pilot rather than create policy, and we should be trying stuff. And that's the idea of being flexible to say, what is context?

00:20:00:09 - 00:20:18:13
Kevin Eikenberry
Tell me about the situation, which might lead me to flex my approach to leading rather than just doing what comes natural, what comes automatic, or what my style tells me or my strengths lead me to.

00:20:18:15 - 00:20:23:14
Julie Winkle Giulioni
Yeah, yeah, thank you, thank you. All right.

00:20:23:16 - 00:20:29:21
Kevin Eikenberry
Asking these big questions, I feel like I'm talking too much, but, But I do have these ideas for you, and hopefully it's helpful.

00:20:29:23 - 00:20:52:07
Julie Winkle Giulioni
Well, and that's the challenge of turning the mic over. You're suddenly the one who's on the hot seat to do all the talking, my friend. And you're doing it brilliantly. Speaking of brilliant, I think you found a brilliant way to frame up the paradoxes. You know that today's leaders have to navigate. You refer to them as flexors.

00:20:52:10 - 00:20:59:15
Julie Winkle Giulioni
And I wonder, could you talk a little bit about the concept, how you got to them and maybe, I don't know, an example or two.

00:20:59:17 - 00:21:17:05
Kevin Eikenberry
For those of you that are watching. I was smiling when you use the word paradox because for a long time, I played with that word as being in the title of the book. So, I appreciate you using that word, because I do think that what we're talking about here, there is a couple of things worth noting at this point.

00:21:17:07 - 00:21:38:23
Kevin Eikenberry
Everything I'm saying says that you might need to think about something other than what comes natural to you. Which means I know that I'm suggesting to you that to be a more flexible leader will make you a more effective leader, but it will definitely be harder, because I'm saying don't just automatically go with what comes natural or even what you're learning experiences.

00:21:39:02 - 00:21:57:19
Kevin Eikenberry
Because you're learning experience might be in different contexts than the one you're in now. And so we have to think about it differently. So this idea of flexors, I don't even know it's a word. It's a word now because I'm calling flexible. And I should probably look that up, shouldn't I? But I, flexors, so here's the thing.

00:21:57:21 - 00:22:29:09
Kevin Eikenberry
The idea of a flexor is, and we've already hinted at one when we said, should we be consistent or should we be flexible? Right. That would that's not a flexor in the book specifically. I believe there are 19 in the book. And yet I think once you see this idea, you will start to notice this everywhere that if we believe that we're in a both and world, that things that we used to consider as being opposites or opposing ideas are actually symbiotic.

00:22:29:11 - 00:22:53:23
Kevin Eikenberry
And that's the big idea behind the flexor. So here's another example of a flexor. It's called the others the outcomes, others flexor. And here it is. Are we leading towards outcomes or are we leading the team that we're leading others? Right. And I would say my definition of leadership is that leadership is reaching valuable outcomes with and through others.

00:22:53:23 - 00:23:15:06
Kevin Eikenberry
Notice that word and in the middle that it's really the so the flexor is is it outcomes or is it others. And so let's use the pandemic as an example. I would say that early in the pandemic, generally speaking, leaders moved in the direction of others. We moved in the direction of we need to make sure our people are okay, right?

00:23:15:08 - 00:23:44:09
Kevin Eikenberry
We gotta make sure not just from a health perspective, but from a mental health perspective. Like, I think generally speaking, leaders got better and more became more empathetic during the pandemic. They began to lean in the direction of others, even if that wasn't their natural approach. Right. And now what are we seeing? Well, now what we're seeing is with all of these return to office mandates and not just a couple of days a week, but you're coming back five days a week and all that stuff.

00:23:44:09 - 00:24:07:16
Kevin Eikenberry
And regardless of how you feel about that, and I think there's some reasons for that. Some may be good and some maybe not so good. That's not really the point of this conversation, but it's a move back in the direction of, well, it's about the outcome, it's not about the others. And so my point here is that if both are true, the question becomes based on our context, which direction should we lean?

00:24:07:18 - 00:24:34:23
Kevin Eikenberry
The big idea is that in almost all of these flexors, all the way on either end, is probably not the right answer. Most of the time, the extremes, the end of the continuum is probably not the optimum or best answer most of the time. So the question then is which direction, how far and to the right or to the left?

00:24:34:23 - 00:24:52:14
Kevin Eikenberry
Should we be based on what the context of the situation, the situation with our team, the nature of the customer relationship and on and on and on? Where does that lead us to lean one way or the other? That's the idea of a flexor.

00:24:52:16 - 00:25:00:09
Julie Winkle Giulioni
Yeah. So it really is about being intentional, being deliberate in the moment based upon the context.

00:25:00:12 - 00:25:15:02
Kevin Eikenberry
Yeah, I would actually say and I don't think this is in the book, you know, you and I have both written books and, you know, what happens is you write stuff and then you keep thinking about it and, and then you come up with this stuff. Well, I wish that was in the book. I, I don't know that it's in the book specifically.

00:25:15:02 - 00:25:45:15
Kevin Eikenberry
And even though I narrated a couple narrated it for the audible a couple of weeks ago, I don't think it is. And maybe it's actually good that it's not in a way, but I believe that what I'm trying to give us all here is a framework for us to be wiser. Literally. Because. Because the more we understand context and what to do with contact, well, first of all, the more we understand context, the smarter we become.

00:25:45:17 - 00:25:56:23
Kevin Eikenberry
And once we know that, and then we have some ways to think about how to flex. Given that I believe we're moving in the direction of being wiser, creating leadership wisdom.

00:25:57:01 - 00:26:04:03
Julie Winkle Giulioni
Yeah, yeah. While you were talking, I did a little search and flexor is is the.

00:26:04:03 - 00:26:04:22
Kevin Eikenberry
Word right.

00:26:05:00 - 00:26:20:01
Julie Winkle Giulioni
Word. And here's how it's defined a muscle who's contraction bends a limb or other part of the body. Just I'd be curious to add your reaction to that. Does it feel like, what you intend with flexor?

00:26:20:03 - 00:26:27:03
Kevin Eikenberry
Even when I was saying it, I was thinking, oh, I bet there's a word there about muscles. So so read. I mean, the definition again.

00:26:27:05 - 00:26:33:07
Julie Winkle Giulioni
A muscle who's contraction bends a limb or other part of the body.

00:26:33:09 - 00:26:57:16
Kevin Eikenberry
Well, so it's about this bending thing, right. So like it's and so it's flexing to allow us to, just to shift to flex. And so I'm if you're not watching, which most of you aren't, I'm bending my elbow and you can kind of see me doing that. And, and so there's flexing that's happening. Right. And, and because the we we are flexible.

00:26:57:16 - 00:27:13:20
Kevin Eikenberry
Right. We can be flexible. Some who do more yoga than me are more flexible than I am. But yet we all are flexible. And so I guess what I'm saying, in a way, is that, we need to become we we need to practice leadership yoga. I suppose maybe that's what this book is.

00:27:13:22 - 00:27:43:08
Julie Winkle Giulioni
Yeah. Exercises muscles a little bit. Which, makes me think about something you were saying just a couple minutes ago. This approach is harder than leaning in to sort of reflexively, whatever your style assignment is, the letter that you've been given. What? And, and I think that in part is why you're so big on habits. We've got a whole chapter dedicated to this.

00:27:43:08 - 00:27:59:19
Julie Winkle Giulioni
So I'd be curious, what are some of, the most impactful, you know, daily or weekly practices that might help leaders become more naturally able to use those flexors, be more flexible over time?

00:27:59:21 - 00:28:27:09
Kevin Eikenberry
I think the first and probably most important and the easiest to start implementing is, creating space for self-reflection, simply saying, so how did that go? How did that not just how did I feel, but how did it go? What worked? What didn't? Knowing that, what might I do next time? Because see, that's the that's the front end of learning, right?

00:28:27:10 - 00:28:46:21
Kevin Eikenberry
That's the fun front end of saying, well, maybe you the way I did it could have been better. What could I have done differently? So we're opening our mind to the idea of flexing. That's where the intention comes in. So I would say that if I could, if I could only give you one to answer your question about what should I be doing on the front end, that would be it.

00:28:46:21 - 00:29:01:03
Kevin Eikenberry
Like practice self reflection. And then secondly, find others that can give you feedback, right? Whether that's a coach, whether that's a peer, whether that's your team, whatever that might be.

00:29:01:05 - 00:29:14:07
Julie Winkle Giulioni
Love it, love it. One of the things that I really appreciated about the book is that it's more than a book. You have QR codes, sprinkled in, you know, with every chapter.

00:29:14:10 - 00:29:17:02
Kevin Eikenberry
Don't remind me. One of those things isn't finished yet.

00:29:17:04 - 00:29:18:22
Julie Winkle Giulioni
Oh, no. Sorry, I oh.

00:29:19:00 - 00:29:22:12
Kevin Eikenberry
No, it will be. It will be by the time you get your book. Everybody.

00:29:22:14 - 00:29:35:02
Julie Winkle Giulioni
I have no doubt. But there's so many tools and opportunities to kind of dig deeper. I wonder, just you, could you highlight maybe 1 or 2 that you really think is going to extend or amplify the impact of the book?

00:29:35:04 - 00:29:49:06
Kevin Eikenberry
Yeah, I'll give you two real quick. One is that there will be a pocket guide. In fact, I was in a conversation with my team about how we're going to implement this exactly, but we're creating what's called a pocket guide to those 19 flexors so that after you've read the book, you can download this to say, like, okay.

00:29:49:07 - 00:30:10:21
Kevin Eikenberry
And it's we haven't figured out exactly how, but it'll be on your phone, the ability for you to then key into those flexors. And the other one is it is a piece related to what we need to do to help us with the being consistent part. And then we said one of those routes, if we use the tree metaphor, one of those routes is our values.

00:30:11:01 - 00:30:32:19
Kevin Eikenberry
And what I find is that a lot of people struggle with, well, what really are my core values? Or like, all these things are important, but you can't have 40 things. You gotta have four things. And and so we've built a tool to help you think through a process to help you on the path towards, have determining what your values are from a leadership perspective specifically.

00:30:32:19 - 00:30:49:19
Kevin Eikenberry
Because here's what I know that a blank sheet of paper is really hard. And so we're just trying to give you we're not trying to tell you what they should be at all. We're just trying to help you with a process to help you to determine or to continue to uncover those for yourself. Those are two examples. Yeah.

00:30:49:21 - 00:31:17:09
Julie Winkle Giulioni
Yeah. I mean, really flexible leadership represents almost a master class in, in shifting one's leadership approach, given the content, content in the book and then all of these additional resources that you can offer. All right. As we wrap up, I wonder if you've got one piece of advice beyond by the book when it comes out on March 25th.

00:31:17:11 - 00:31:19:02
Kevin Eikenberry
You don't have to wait. You can buy it today.

00:31:19:07 - 00:31:44:12
Julie Winkle Giulioni
Oh, yeah. Preorder. Preorder. And it sounds like they'll be, an audio version so we can hear it in the author's voice, which I just love. Yeah. So beyond buying the book, reading the book, and taking it to heart, what is one piece of advice that you give to leaders who want to embrace a more flexible approach to their leadership?

00:31:44:14 - 00:32:21:12
Kevin Eikenberry
So here's what I'd say. First, you're not listening or watching. Now, like you're already in a special group because you've already decided that you want to get better or you wouldn't be listening and watching. Right. And so I congratulate you on that. And I would just tell you that wherever you are in your leadership journey, there's a road ahead and that you can be more effective, like your your potential as a leader is far more than wherever you are on your current journey.

00:32:21:14 - 00:32:40:09
Kevin Eikenberry
And this book is meant to help you on that journey and, I believe, help you take a really useful and and in many ways, novel step on that journey and, and I'll just say this. The world needs you and the world needs your leadership.

00:32:40:11 - 00:33:02:17
Julie Winkle Giulioni
Thank you, Kevin, for that wisdom and, and inspiration. So I have so appreciated getting my questions answered and, being able to be part of this conversation. And I guess I must turn the mic back to me. To you, for, our wrap up here.

00:33:02:18 - 00:33:18:22
Kevin Eikenberry
Yeah, I do have a couple more things to say. And the first one is, you know, everybody before we started, and Julie and I, before we hit, I hit live. She said, well, this is all about you. And I said, no, Julie, this is about both of us. So I'm going to put Julie's, website up on the screen for those who are watching.

00:33:19:00 - 00:33:34:15
Kevin Eikenberry
Julie Winkel. Julie, Julian, is is on the screen and I'm going to ask you to say, like, where do you want to point people? How do they, connect with you? Tell us a little bit about how they can, learn more from you.

00:33:34:16 - 00:33:50:17
Julie Winkle Giulioni
Oh, well thank you. Kevin. Yep. Julie Winkel giuliani.com is where, most of, my content lives and I show up quite frequently on LinkedIn as well. Would love to connect with folks on topics of leadership and career development.

00:33:50:19 - 00:34:10:21
Kevin Eikenberry
So it's Julie Winkle. Winkle g I u l I o n uh.com. That'll be in the show notes as well if you miss it. Or if you just looking at the title of this episode, you'll see it there as well. So, I'm going to close. So thank you again, Julie, for doing this. It was a.

00:34:10:21 - 00:34:12:08
Julie Winkle Giulioni
Pleasure, truly.

00:34:12:08 - 00:34:29:13
Kevin Eikenberry
And I appreciate you taking investing your time for me and for others and doing this a couple of other things real quick, everybody, I'm going to ask the question I always ask at the end of every episode, and usually I'm asking about what stuff other people said, but today it's about what I said. The question is, now what?

00:34:29:13 - 00:34:47:05
Kevin Eikenberry
What action will you take as a result? What did you take from this? That's useful to you, that you that you found interesting? But that's really not enough. What I want you to do is think about, okay, now what am I going to do? Because Julie mentioned it. The book talks about the skills, but it also talks about the habit.

00:34:47:09 - 00:35:12:11
Kevin Eikenberry
There's a difference between what we know and what we do. And I want you now to be thinking about what you're going to do with what you learned. And of course, we'd love if one of those things that you did was to buy the book. And in fact, I put the link up here earlier. Kevin, I can recommend buy two and the reason I think you should buy it, here's why you should buy two is because, you need to have someone that will walk along with you as you're learning this so that you can help each other, encourage each other along the way.

00:35:12:13 - 00:35:37:09
Kevin Eikenberry
That will tell you not only how you can buy to from wherever you like to buy your books, but how you can get access to, full premier access to our upcoming Virtual Leader card event. Julie's been a guest on Virtual Leader Con in the past, so if you when you buy two copies of the book, you get access to the full, recordings, transcripts and everything else from her upcoming Virtual Leader card event.

00:35:37:09 - 00:35:57:02
Kevin Eikenberry
You'll learn more about that when you go to Kevin. I can.com/buy numeral two. If you go to buy ten, there's a way more things you get if you buy ten and lots more. If you want to talk to us about buying lots of books, there's all sorts of extra bonuses you get, including having the chance to perhaps have become keynote for you just because you bought books.

00:35:57:07 - 00:36:17:17
Kevin Eikenberry
So all those things are true. But one more thing that has cost you absolutely nothing. And because you stayed with us till the end, I told people on social media this morning that if you stayed till the end, I had a gift for you and here it is. It's Kevin. I can very.com/gift. And so if you're listening now whenever that is long into the future, if you go to Kevin I give you that common gift.

00:36:17:19 - 00:36:37:21
Kevin Eikenberry
I'm going to give you a copy or give you access to our masterclass about building confidence in ourselves and others. And it's completely free to you just because you stayed to the end. Kevin, I can pre-comp gift. Julie, thanks again for joining me and for guiding me through this conversation. It was a.

00:36:37:21 - 00:36:40:14
Julie Winkle Giulioni
Pleasure. It's been a pleasure. Thank you.

00:36:40:16 - 00:36:59:01
Kevin Eikenberry
So, everybody, if you found this useful, well, go buy some books. Okay. And if you found it useful, make sure you're subscribed wherever you're listening to this from so you don't miss another episode. We'll be back next week with another episode of The Remarkable Worship Podcast. And next week I'll be back in the other seat interviewing an expert.

00:36:59:07 - 00:36:59:21
Kevin Eikenberry
We'll see you then.