The Remarkable Leadership Podcast

00:00:08:12 - 00:00:37:21
Kevin Eikenberry
Every leader needs to be a student of change and how to make change happen more effectively and predictably because, well, all leaders are in the change business. Today we're talking with an experienced expert in the subject with an interesting metaphor, a very interesting metaphor to give us a fresh look at this important skill set. Welcome to another episode of the Remarkable Leadership Podcast, where we are helping leaders grow personally and professionally to lead more effectively and make a bigger, positive difference for their teams, organizations and the world.

00:00:37:22 - 00:01:07:04
Kevin Eikenberry
If you are listening to this podcast, you could join us in the future for future episodes, live on your favorite social media channel. You can find out when those are happening and how you can get involved by joining our Facebook or LinkedIn groups. Just two of the platforms that these run on simulcast on, if you will. And so you can join our Facebook or LinkedIn groups by going to remarkable podcast.com/facebook or remarkable podcast.com/linkedin.

00:01:07:05 - 00:01:30:05
Kevin Eikenberry
I hope you'll do that and join us there. We share some other stuff about episodes there as well. Today's episode is brought to you by the second edition of our latest book, The Long Distance Leader Revised Rules for Remarkable Remote and Hybrid Leadership. If you lead a team that is distributed in any way, this book will give you new skills, insights, and the confidence to lead more effectively in the new world of work.

00:01:30:07 - 00:01:55:12
Kevin Eikenberry
Learn more and order your copy now at remarkable podcast.com/l d l. And now I'm going to bring in my guest. And there she is. Let me introduce our guest. And then we will dive right on in. My guest today is Siobhan McHale. She has worked across four continents, helping thousands of leaders to create more agile and productive workplaces.

00:01:55:12 - 00:02:20:16
Kevin Eikenberry
She has also been on the inside as an executive in Change of Culture and in charge in charge of change culture in a series of large multinational organizations. One of these inside jobs was a radical seven year change initiative, and Australia and New Zealand Banking Group limited that transformed it from being the lowest performing bank in the country to one of the highest performing and most admired banks in the world.

00:02:20:16 - 00:02:49:11
Kevin Eikenberry
Professor John Cotter used your work there as a Harvard Business School case study designed to teach MBA students about managing change. I said we'd be talking about change, and we're talking about her brand new book, The Hive Mind at Work The Power of Group intelligence to Create Meaningful and Lasting Change. That's our focus today. She is my guest and all of you mentally raise your hand if you'd like to have more meaningful and lasting change.

00:02:49:11 - 00:02:56:18
Kevin Eikenberry
Hey, so glad that everybody is here. Siobhan, thanks for joining us from Austria. I'm assuming you're in Australia right?

00:02:56:20 - 00:03:02:06
Siobhan McHale
Correct. Right. To be with you today, Kevin. Thank you for having me on the podcast.

00:03:02:08 - 00:03:23:05
Kevin Eikenberry
Oh you're welcome. So before we started, we were having this conversation about whether it's good morning, whether it's good evening. So people on LinkedIn are saying good evening. They're saying good evening. It's not evening for me. Quite, but it's morning for you. So, I'm excited to have you here to talk about one of my favorite topics, actually.

00:03:23:07 - 00:03:42:07
Kevin Eikenberry
But before we get to that, specifically, tell us a little bit more about your journey. I mean, you didn't wake up when you were seven and say, I'm going to write a book about management or about bees, for that matter. So let's talk about that a little bit.

00:03:42:09 - 00:04:16:12
Siobhan McHale
Sure. So as a child growing up in Ireland, I was fascinated by the bees as they swarmed in the orchard on my family's farm. And this fascination with natural ecosystems led me to a career studying human ecosystems. So I went on to study organizational psychology, and then I became a consultant for a decade. But after a decade in consulting, I wanted to be more invested, and I wanted to roll my sleeves up and actually make change happen.

00:04:16:14 - 00:04:28:20
Siobhan McHale
And that's when I moved to an inside a role within an organization. And as the person in charge of transformation, and I've been doing that job ever since, Kevin.

00:04:28:22 - 00:04:50:02
Kevin Eikenberry
And then you wrote a book and we're going to talk about so so that that tells us, I mean, I'm guessing that most of your work throughout that your career has been around change management, but why what why did you gravitate there or why did you choose to stay in that sort of discipline for you? Why change management?

00:04:50:04 - 00:05:16:17
Siobhan McHale
Yeah, I think for me a lot has been written about individual change, and as a psychologist, I wasn't interested in individual change, but I was actually more fascinated with how complex human ecosystems function, how they perform, how they grow, how they change. So that, for me has been a lifetime of research, which has culminated in my recent book, The Hive Mind at Work.

00:05:16:17 - 00:05:42:00
Siobhan McHale
Since really moving from this hyper individualized view of the world to a more collective view of how groups operate, how groups perform, how teams develop, and how they begin to operate and change ultimately. So how can you build that agility in when you've, when you're facing increased complexity in the world?

00:05:42:02 - 00:06:08:13
Kevin Eikenberry
So if you all haven't figured it out yet, she mentioned, a fascination with bees. And the book's title is The Hive Mind. So the metaphor that goes throughout the book that I teased in the open, is the metaphor of bees and and how they interact and how they do the magic that creates honey, for us and connecting that to organizational life and to change.

00:06:08:15 - 00:06:26:06
Kevin Eikenberry
So, what are a couple of think lessons. And before we we'll get into the change stuff specifically, but what are a couple of lessons, on the metaphor side, that we ought to take into account? Like, I just put it this way, what are the lessons we can learn from bees?

00:06:26:08 - 00:06:53:17
Siobhan McHale
Sure. So, yeah, the book has lots of practical business case studies, but one of the studies that I gave throughout the book is how the bees on Wombat Hill often, notice that the hive is overcrowded, and they realize that unless they find a new home that they won't survive as a hive throughout the harsh winter months. So one of the first lessons we can learn from the bees is that they see what's emerging.

00:06:53:19 - 00:07:23:19
Siobhan McHale
They face the reality, and they take action, which is something that, in organizations we often fail. We often fail to notice when things are shifting and that the reality is different. And what worked for us in the past may not work for us in the future. So that's one of the first things. And the second thing is that the bees, very quickly, they very rapidly change their operating model in order to embark on this journey of change.

00:07:23:19 - 00:07:54:11
Siobhan McHale
So they go from foraging and looking for supplies for the hive to rapidly, shifting their roles within the hive in order to, successfully change. So the the Queen takes up the role of director to really take half of the hive or 20,000 bees on this journey to find a new home. So, I talk about this, need to redesign your operating model during change.

00:07:54:13 - 00:08:14:10
Kevin Eikenberry
And it's a fascinating way to look at it. And you and I are in agreement that one of the best ways to help people learn something and remember it is to use a story to do that. And you do that throughout the book. And to me, there's two big ideas in the book. One is change Everything related, but the other one, it's in the subtitle, the Power of Group intelligence.

00:08:14:10 - 00:08:39:19
Kevin Eikenberry
And so I want to talk a little bit about both of those things before we're done. I think that every body in any organization who's been doing it for any length of time, which probably includes anyone watching or listening, sorry, that's fine, would say they've been through organizational changes that didn't go perfectly right. So I'll ask this question why?

00:08:39:19 - 00:08:56:09
Kevin Eikenberry
And there's been all sorts of research that does this. You see, I mistyped my word there. So what why is organizationally, why is our track record with change not so good? Like, why is it that so many new fail?

00:08:56:11 - 00:09:28:00
Siobhan McHale
Wow, that's such a great question, Kevin. I think why a lot of change efforts fail is that people embark on change by implementing what I call a technical lens. So they approach change as if they are working in a machine, so they tweak a gadget or they oil, you know, oil, a spring in a machine. And organizations are not machines.

00:09:28:00 - 00:09:41:22
Siobhan McHale
Organizations are ecosystems. And this is one of the flaws that we've all been taught, actually, that, to view organizations as machines. And it's not working for us. Kevin.

00:09:42:00 - 00:10:04:15
Kevin Eikenberry
It is not whether we want to think about them as ecosystems or organisms that what we end up with. So often you talk about it in the book and I agree, in my experience, I work with clients as well, is that we try to do something and it creates all these unintended consequences because it's so much more complex than than a machine.

00:10:04:19 - 00:10:32:10
Kevin Eikenberry
Right. Like someone might be able to go put the computer back together, but they can't put a bee back together, right? They can't put. So like thinking about it that way changes the dynamic. What to what do it. Once we buy your idea that organizations or organizations or ecosystems, where do we need to start thinking differently if we buy your idea?

00:10:32:12 - 00:10:40:04
Kevin Eikenberry
We're start thinking differently to be more successful.

00:10:40:06 - 00:11:18:12
Siobhan McHale
We need to start by examining the ecosystem and determining what are the patterns that are going on in that ecosystem and that patterns, I mean, the hidden agreements that are running the ecosystem system. And we often don't see those patterns, and we delve into change with this technical lens. And we assume that we can shape the people in training, or we can put in a new process, or we can implement a new I.T system.

00:11:18:14 - 00:11:49:17
Siobhan McHale
And that these things are these levers that we pull for change will work when actually we've completely failed to see the underlying patterns as the great systems thinker and Gregory Bates and once said, you must see the patterns that connect. And we don't do that work often. So we're not rewiring the ecosystem. We just putting in technical fixes like Band-Aids on top of the issues.

00:11:49:19 - 00:12:09:04
Kevin Eikenberry
And then when it doesn't completely work, we wonder why people get cynical or people say, well, I'm just going to wait this out because it's not going to work. And you talk about that in the book as well. So, you talk about a lens, that we should use a lens model that I thought was great.

00:12:09:04 - 00:12:27:12
Kevin Eikenberry
There's a couple of the of the four that I like the most personally, but talk about to us about the lens model lens. If you're you're not looking at the screen with me. What are those four pieces? And what's the model for? And how do we. What are those four pieces?

00:12:27:14 - 00:12:52:22
Siobhan McHale
Sure. So the lens model is a model of change and it's non-linear. So I talk about the fact that change is not it is not a linear process. But we've got to do four critical things during change within a group. The first is to look beyond that's the L look beyond the obvious and examine what's going on in the system and see the patterns.

00:12:52:22 - 00:13:27:08
Siobhan McHale
And this is tricky work, Kevin, because we are our brains are not wired for the systemic. Our brains are wired for the technical and the interpersonal. So to be able to see and to diagnose these patterns in your ecosystem or in your group is is difficult. And I give lots of examples in the book of patterns. So that's one of the most important stages and one that many people rush through and they end up on the wrong path, spending millions of dollars on solutions that won't work.

00:13:27:10 - 00:13:56:07
Siobhan McHale
So I can take you some through some examples of patterns later. But then the e in the lens model is to experiment, right? So in complex adaptive ecosystems, we often must experiment in order to emerge. The solutions the n and the lens model is to nudge. Often in organizations we've been taught to push hard for change. You know, creates a burning platform.

00:13:56:08 - 00:14:30:20
Siobhan McHale
But in my experience, that often leads to a very dysfunctional pushback pattern. And so you push, other parts of the system, push back harder. Exactly. And then the s in the lens model is how do you strengthen the emerging change? And I give lots of examples of how when change is beginning, you can you can start to strengthen it, by doing various things in order to make it more, more embedded, if you like.

00:14:30:22 - 00:14:46:19
Kevin Eikenberry
I will, I will get to my favorite in a second, but we need to talk a little bit about look beyond. And, and I'd like you to give us an example or two, but one of the things that strikes me both as I read it and as I'm listening to you, is that, you know, one of the things that as humans, we are good at is pattern recognition.

00:14:46:20 - 00:15:03:13
Kevin Eikenberry
And yet, to your point, like we're not good at thinking about this systemically, systematically. And so here's my take. You're smarter than me about this. My take is that it's because we already have a pattern that we think we figured out, so we can't see past it. Is that accurate?

00:15:03:15 - 00:15:40:20
Siobhan McHale
Yeah, I think there are different ways of meaning making around pattern. So a pattern can be something that's repeated over time. But in the systemic world, a pattern is an agreement between the parts that often is hidden. It's invisible. And let me give you a quick example from you mentioned the ANZ bank, and we turned around that bank in seven years from the worst performing bank in the country to the number one on the Dow Jones Sustainability Index and the the top bank in the country in terms of customer satisfaction.

00:15:40:22 - 00:16:06:19
Siobhan McHale
But when I walked into the bank seven years earlier, the executive team were completely at a loss about what to do. They had restructure the organization, but it had taken the firm backwards. That restructure. But what they were missing was they hadn't seen the pattern that was running the bank where head office was in role of order giver.

00:16:06:21 - 00:16:37:07
Siobhan McHale
So they were giving the instructions in role of order giver and making the decisions. And the 700 bank branches were in role of order taker. And their role was just to sit there and take the orders from head office. And this agreement, the hidden agreement between these two parts of the bank, which is you take the orders from head office, was leading to disengage men to sense of victimhood and diminished customer satisfaction results.

00:16:37:07 - 00:16:53:10
Siobhan McHale
So we needed to diagnose that pattern and to have interventions that would rewire the pattern before we did anything else. And seeing that pattern was the key to unlocking change at the ANZ Bank.

00:16:53:12 - 00:17:15:10
Kevin Eikenberry
Yeah, I love that. So do you want to guess which of the other three is my favorite? I mean, not that I don't really matter, I'm just curious if you if you haven't made me feel this way, let's do it. This is the first. Is there one that you find, readers or clients most often find most interesting?

00:17:15:10 - 00:17:18:19
Kevin Eikenberry
We'll do it that way. Then we'll see if that matches with mine.

00:17:18:21 - 00:17:42:13
Siobhan McHale
Yeah, I think the two in the middle I find most interesting. The experiments that really, really relate to that one and nudging people really love the nudge, because it's, it's in a way counterintuitive when they hear it. So they just go, oh, yeah, that makes so much sense to me. The nudging. So those two in the middle people tend to be.

00:17:42:15 - 00:17:45:20
Siobhan McHale
Yeah, very, very drawn to I would say Kevin what's yours?

00:17:45:23 - 00:18:06:12
Kevin Eikenberry
I love the nudge now. I mean I'm, I'm big on experimenting. I've said with organizations coming out of the pandemic. So one of the things that you should we should stop we should start piloting and not creating new policy, which is fundamentally a way of saying we need to experiment to figure out what's going to work best for where our people work, based on our work, all sorts of things.

00:18:06:14 - 00:18:31:11
Kevin Eikenberry
But to me, the word, the word nudge is just like the perfect word here. I mean, obviously it fits into make your word lens, which is useful. I understand that, but but the word nudge is just such a good word to describe this, to help us, work through and around and explore resistance rather than create more of it, which is what we were talking about earlier with the pushing.

00:18:31:13 - 00:18:50:19
Kevin Eikenberry
And so I just really love that idea, and I love some of your examples, talking about things like your mother saying one day when you're older than Ireland, I think that we should move to Australia, which was like the furthest thing from anyone's mind. And now it it sounds like pretty much all of the family is in Australia.

00:18:51:00 - 00:19:11:23
Kevin Eikenberry
But the point is that sometimes we need to give people a change and give them time to process it. You know, one of the things that that I find and I hit the wrong button there, one of the things that that I find, given is that oftentimes leaders are the ones out in front of the change, which means they've had the longest to think about it and process it.

00:19:12:01 - 00:19:12:15
Kevin Eikenberry
And then.

00:19:12:17 - 00:19:13:07
Siobhan McHale
I.

00:19:13:09 - 00:19:23:17
Kevin Eikenberry
Now it makes sense to me. So why isn't everyone else ready instantly? Which means that that word, the nudge is just so very powerful from my perspective. You want to say more about the.

00:19:23:19 - 00:19:47:00
Siobhan McHale
Yeah, the nudge is incredibly powerful and it goes against some of the mythology and change. You know, you've heard about the burning platform and which actually emerged from the story of a literally a burning oil rig in the North Sea where, two men were were trying to escape this burning platform. They locked themselves in a dark room and then realized it wasn't going to save them.

00:19:47:00 - 00:20:10:13
Siobhan McHale
So they plunged into the North Sea in the middle of the night, into the freezing waters. And some change gurus took that story and and sort of twisted it to say, you've got to create a burning platform for change and of course, managers have been fed this mythology and they think you've got to drive hard for change, you've got to push hard for change.

00:20:10:13 - 00:20:46:05
Siobhan McHale
But paradigm, basically what that creates in the system is resistance. And that resistance can be overt. Some people can actively push back, or they can go in a more covert way and sabotage the change efforts. So pushing change hard is, not necessarily going to give you the results you need. Which is why nudging nudging the system and finding ways to design interventions that encourage it to move in the right direction, are often much more productive.

00:20:46:05 - 00:21:14:19
Kevin Eikenberry
Kevin, and then strengthen, you know, I think that, And I think from what I read that you and I agree that one of the mistakes we make, we think we've got done will change. It is change is done. And yet the strengthened step says we're not done nearly as early as we think we are. And so all the changes that you've all seen in your life that, well, they seem to be going okay, and then they just fizzle out and die.

00:21:14:20 - 00:21:22:23
Kevin Eikenberry
Tell us a little bit more about what we as leaders at any level, can do around the strength and step.

00:21:23:01 - 00:21:47:13
Siobhan McHale
Yeah. So often, as you mentioned, Kevin, you say to leaders what what happened? And they said, well, we launched the change and it's well what happened next. And they don't go back into the system to check what has been the reaction to check how the change landed, to see what more is needed in order to embed that change, allow it to strengthen, allow it to grow.

00:21:47:13 - 00:22:18:01
Siobhan McHale
It's like it's launched. And now I'm moving on to the next thing. And that's disasters from a change perspective. So in the hive mind at work, I give readers a lot of practical ways to strengthen the change, including using processes, policies, systems, to to provide that infrastructure, that scaffolding around your change so that it really does become the way of doing things around here.

00:22:18:03 - 00:22:18:20
Siobhan McHale
So the, the.

00:22:18:20 - 00:22:53:12
Kevin Eikenberry
Reinforcement to create, you create a new culture. And by the way, we use the same definition of culture, the way we do things around here. The other thing that I said we would spend some time on, that I love is just everything. I mean, everything we've been talking about is getting is getting at the fact that we're talking about a group and we're not talking about individual change, the group dynamic, the and that ecosystem, as you said, you've got, a series of thoughts about something you call the nine laws of group dynamics.

00:22:53:12 - 00:23:14:13
Kevin Eikenberry
But before we get there, what you're what we're really talking about here is and you say in the book, we all know about IQ, we all know about IQ, but you think it's time for us to think about GQ. And for those in the US, he or she is not talking about Gentlemen's Quarterly magazine. What do you mean by GQ?

00:23:14:15 - 00:23:48:03
Siobhan McHale
Sure. So IQ is, as we know, is intellectual intelligence. And that helps you with rational, thinking helps you with logic. It helps you with technical problem solving. Then we've got EQ, which is emotional intelligence, and that helps you with the interpersonal realm. And to understand your own emotions and the emotions of other people around you, that those two intelligences are necessary, but not sufficient for the complexity in which we find ourselves today.

00:23:48:05 - 00:24:08:20
Siobhan McHale
And that's where we need group intelligence, or GQ. And GQ is the ability to understand complex human ecosystems and to be able to intervene in those ecosystems in order to help them to deliver, grow or adapt to together.

00:24:08:22 - 00:24:33:00
Kevin Eikenberry
So in the book near the back, you have, as I said, these nine. I'm gonna see if I can find them. There they are right there. Everybody. Yeah. Nine laws of group dynamics. And we don't obviously, we don't have time to dive into all nine of them, but pick one, to give people a little bit of a taste, but pick one that you think maybe, you feel that that would be useful for us to to talk about briefly?

00:24:33:02 - 00:25:03:14
Siobhan McHale
Yeah. The one I'll pick for read, for listeners today is the, the law of role. So as an organizational psychologist, I was taught that personality rules, behavior. And many of us have been taught that personality has an inordinate influence on our behavior. And it does. But what we forget about is our role in the system also influences our behavior.

00:25:03:14 - 00:25:32:01
Siobhan McHale
So let me give you an example of an, who wakes up in the morning. She greets her husband in role of wife. She goes down to the kitchen where she meets her nine year old twins, and she steps into role of mother to get them ready for school. She goes, and the later that morning gets onto the train and role of commuter and goes into New York City, where she's head of cardiology at a major New York hospital.

00:25:32:03 - 00:25:59:09
Siobhan McHale
That morning, she steps into role of teacher with a group of students. Later that morning, she steps into role of negotiator with her boss, looking for more funding for some equipment for her department. And that afternoon, she steps into role of advisor with a colleague who wants a second opinion. That evening, she steps into the role of friend with the school mate who wants some advice.

00:25:59:11 - 00:26:23:22
Siobhan McHale
So is Anna the same Anna in each of those interactions? Yes, she she is the same authentic Anna, but her behavior changes as her role shifts. So we can apply this during change. This this role reframing, in order to accelerate change and create less noise.

00:26:24:00 - 00:26:52:18
Kevin Eikenberry
Yeah, I love that. This idea of role reframing. We are talking to Siobhan McHale, the author of the great new book The Hive Mind Harnessing the Group, excuse me, The power of Group intelligence to Create Meaningful and lasting Change. You mentioned complexity. And to me, that's one of the big the other big ideas in the book is that and that's where we started with the idea of an ecosystem as opposed to a machine.

00:26:52:20 - 00:27:09:23
Kevin Eikenberry
And you mentioned complexity a couple of times. Give us a place to start as leaders, to equip us to deal with complexity a little better, or how we can help our teams deal with complexity a little bit better.

00:27:10:01 - 00:27:54:03
Siobhan McHale
Sure. One of the most powerful tools that I talk about in the book is to map the ecosystem. And by that I literally mean to take out a pen, use a whiteboard, use some paper, sit in a room, and probably best with other people, map the ecosystem. Because what's interesting, having complex ecosystems like cities or financial markets or climate systems, or families or workplace cultures, or workplace is in any shape or form, is that the complexity of these ecosystems is paradoxically underpinned by often simple rules or patterns.

00:27:54:05 - 00:28:32:17
Siobhan McHale
And if we can see those patterns, we we are part of the way to actually making sense of that complexity. And I give lots of examples of that in the book, in the Hive Mind at work of seemingly very complex ecosystems. That actually when you examine them and when you map them, you can start to make sense of that complexity by observing the patterns that are running the ecosystems and the role of the different parts of the system, are taking up in order to keep that pattern in play.

00:28:32:19 - 00:28:43:14
Kevin Eikenberry
I love that. So before we go into the final piece of our conversation, is there anything I didn't ask that you wish I would have?

00:28:43:15 - 00:29:10:02
Siobhan McHale
Oh, golly, I don't I don't think so. Yeah, I think you've asked some great questions, and I think, the other thing I might just mention is that, we've been taught as managers to do the functional work, so we've been taught to be technical experts. So you ask an engineer, or he can design a bridge over a raging river.

00:29:10:04 - 00:29:37:03
Siobhan McHale
If you ask a, you know, a finance manager, she can create a half year budget. If you ask, a marketing manager, he or she can create a plan for a product rollout. But if you ask these very smart people to create a plan for or taking a group on a change journey, often you you face blank faces.

00:29:37:08 - 00:30:01:23
Siobhan McHale
Because we haven't been taught to do that adaptive work in complex ecosystems. We've been trained to be technical, functional experts. And I think that's one of my aims with the hive mind at work is to equip leaders with the skills in order to undertake group change.

00:30:02:01 - 00:30:13:14
Kevin Eikenberry
So you want all of us to read to by and read the hive mind at work? I'm curious, what's something that you've read recently?

00:30:13:16 - 00:30:42:06
Siobhan McHale
Yeah, I'm I'm rereading a book called Brooklyn by Colm Tobin, which was made into a movie with the wonderful seer Sharon, those of you who may have seen the movie, but, it probably resonates with me because I'm also an immigrant and it's an immigrant story of the Irish moving to New York. And me and my family moved from Ireland to Australia, several decades ago, and Australia is now my home.

00:30:42:06 - 00:30:54:11
Siobhan McHale
But Ireland will always be my my home as well. So I see myself as both Irish and Australian. But yeah, that resonates. That's a wonderful book that resonates with me in terms of an immigrant story.

00:30:54:13 - 00:31:08:05
Kevin Eikenberry
I love that we'll have that. We'll have both books in the show notes for you all so you can find them. If you didn't take notes, like if you're listening to this while you're driving, I hope you're not writing that down. Like if you're listening while you're on the, I don't know, the treadmill. Probably couldn't write that down.

00:31:08:06 - 00:31:23:07
Kevin Eikenberry
That'll be in the show. And you can always go check them there. Before we go, the question you've most wanted me to ask all along is, where can we learn more about you and the work in the book? Like, where do you want to point people? Where do you wanna send them?

00:31:23:09 - 00:31:44:00
Siobhan McHale
Sure. The best way to connect with me is through LinkedIn. And the best way to, get hold of the hive mind at work is on Amazon or any of your favorite online outlets, and also in your. Hopefully your local bookstore will also have have a copy of The Hive Mind at work.

00:31:44:02 - 00:32:02:05
Kevin Eikenberry
I can tell you all that, I read a lot of books and I read a lot of books from this show. If you've watched, watched, or listen before, you know that's true. And, this is a book that I was looking forward to. I enjoyed a great deal. And, and there's some things I'm going to go back to and spend a little more time with.

00:32:02:07 - 00:32:21:23
Kevin Eikenberry
As I have time to do that. So, before we go on, I want to ask the question of the group that I ask every single episode, and it is this. Now, what? What are you going to do now with what you just learned in the richness of the last 30 minutes of this conversation? What ideas and insights did you get?

00:32:21:23 - 00:32:47:20
Kevin Eikenberry
That's fine. But my question isn't really about knowledge. My question is really about action. What are you going to do with what you've got? And and I think you've got all sorts of things I want to share the list of things I wrote, but I will encourage you to think about what did you take from this that leads to an action you could take that could make a difference for you as a leader in creating meaningful and lasting change?

00:32:47:20 - 00:32:59:06
Kevin Eikenberry
Siobhan, thank you so much for being here. It was such a pleasure to have you. Thank you for sharing your time and your insights and helping us learn a little bit more about being more effective with change.

00:32:59:08 - 00:33:02:16
Siobhan McHale
Thanks, Kevin. It's been a pleasure, everybody.

00:33:02:16 - 00:33:20:03
Kevin Eikenberry
If you enjoyed this, invite someone to come listen, if you've been here before, make sure you're subscribed so you don't miss any future episodes. And if you really love it, make sure you give us a review. I mean, you know how to do all that, so just do it and make sure you come back next week for another episode of the Remarkable Leadership Podcast.

00:33:20:03 - 00:33:21:09
Kevin Eikenberry
We'll see you all then.