The Remarkable Leadership Podcast

00:00:08:20 - 00:00:49:10
Kevin Eikenberry
Sometimes I've jokingly said that accountability is the longest four letter word in the English language, and there is often truth in jest. And yet, when we think about and create accountability in the correct and most effective ways, it is not a four letter word. It is a significant driver to our success. Accountability is our conversation today. And so welcome to another episode of the Remarkable Leadership Podcast, where we are helping leaders grow personally and professionally to lead more effectively, make a bigger, positive difference for their teams organizations in the world.

00:00:49:12 - 00:01:09:19
Kevin Eikenberry
If you are listening to us, you could have joined us. Well, actually, in the future you could join us live. And while we're on video, if you would like to do that, you need to know when and where to do that. And the best way to do that is to join our Facebook or LinkedIn groups, which are two of the platforms where these things originally stream live.

00:01:10:00 - 00:01:36:22
Kevin Eikenberry
Just go to remarkable podcast.com/facebook or a remarkable podcast.com/linkedin to get all set up to get connected to what we're doing, what's up and when. These episodes originally simulcast live stream. I hope you will do that, and I hope that you will remember that. Today's episode is brought to you by my latest book, Flexible Leadership. Navigate Uncertainty and Lead with Confidence.

00:01:37:04 - 00:02:00:04
Kevin Eikenberry
It's time to realize that styles can get in our way, and that following our strengths might not always be the best approach in a world more complex and uncertain than ever. Leaders need a new perspective, a new set of tools in order to create the results that their organizations and team members want and need. And that's what flexible leadership provide.

00:02:00:04 - 00:02:32:05
Kevin Eikenberry
You can learn more and order your copy at remarkable podcast.com/flexible. And having done all of our, housekeeping and all of our introducing, let me introduce the most important part of today's episode. And that is our guest. His name is Michael Timms. He is a leadership development consultant, author and founder of Avail leadership and has empowered thousands of senior leaders to adopt powerful leadership habits and practices that drive measurable improvements in their team performance, engagement, and results.

00:02:32:07 - 00:02:55:20
Kevin Eikenberry
His latest book is How Leaders Can Inspire Accountability, as promised that is the focus of our conversation today. It's also the basis for his TEDx talk how? Excuse me TEDx talk how to claim Your Leadership power. And you can look that up as you know how to do. And with that, I will welcome Michael to the show. Thanksgiving dinner sir.

00:02:55:22 - 00:02:58:04
Michael Timms
Hey, I'm glad to be here. Thanks very much for having me.

00:02:58:06 - 00:03:07:18
Kevin Eikenberry
All the way from British Columbia. Yeah. When we're doing this virtually, I suppose that doesn't matter in a way. And yet, there we go, all the way from British Columbia. So.

00:03:08:05 - 00:03:12:12
Michael Timms
What's a it's a connected world. We're all we're all, we're all connected.

00:03:12:14 - 00:03:37:17
Kevin Eikenberry
And so we've got someone here from Seattle and we've got, and so welcome, Rob, and welcome, Mark, see, for all of you that I just said, if you wanted to join us live, see, if you do that gets get connected and signed up so you can do that in the future. So what I want to start with, Michael, is is a place I start with many of our guests, and that is for you to tell us a little bit more about your journey.

00:03:37:19 - 00:03:57:12
Kevin Eikenberry
So obviously you didn't. Well, I'm presuming that you didn't wake up when you were six years old and say, I'm going to be a leadership development. Trainer and author coach, tell us a little bit about how you end up doing this kind of work.

00:03:57:14 - 00:04:12:09
Michael Timms
Sure. If you go way back, you was back in university when, my parents gave me the book, The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People. And I read that book and and I was like, this is exactly what I do, what I want to do with my life. And, and then I was like, well, how can I do that?

00:04:12:09 - 00:04:32:21
Michael Timms
What do I how do I kind of change my academic direction here? And I, I focused in, in human resources, got an MBA and specialized in HR and and then did none of that in HR, like, I thought I was going to be doing leadership development, organizational behavior and know in HR is doing, you know, hiring, firing, training.

00:04:33:17 - 00:04:54:00
Michael Timms
Actually not not very much training, but, policy things like that. Anyways, throughout my career in industry, my story might not be unlike many of your viewers, which is my bosses got progressively worse. I ended my first boss was he's a great guy, really cared about me. And and I had five bosses in industry and each one got progressively worse.

00:04:54:00 - 00:05:23:02
Michael Timms
And the last guy was just awful. Super micromanager, just destroyed my confidence. And, and I remember feeling I remember thinking, man, I don't want anybody to feel the way that this guy is making me feel. And that's when I decided to get back into, my my love of leadership and, and helping organizations teach people not just how to not be, you know, asshole bosses.

00:05:23:17 - 00:05:45:04
Michael Timms
But how to actually, how to actually bring out the best in other people. How, you know, what what can I do as a, as a person in a position of authority to actually help people, rise to their, to their, greatest level and, and, and become their best selves, and in so doing, you know, help the organization achieve, achieve its goals.

00:05:45:06 - 00:05:50:00
Michael Timms
So, so that that was kind of how I, how I got into to this.

00:05:50:01 - 00:06:11:07
Kevin Eikenberry
And so one way to think about achieving those things is through that very long four letter word that I describe, accountability. So do you want to say any more very specifically about why you and obviously we're talking about leadership and your book titles, how leaders and then inspire accountability. So obviously you talked about the leadership piece. Why account?

00:06:11:07 - 00:06:15:13
Kevin Eikenberry
Why is accountability the focus of the book and much of your work?

00:06:15:15 - 00:06:37:04
Michael Timms
Yeah, when I started, consulting about ten years ago, I focused on succession planning. And what many people don't know is the very first step in succession planning is to come up with a promotion criteria. So what is the criteria by which we're going to promote people into leadership positions? Typically it's basically who's bent, who's the most technically competent, who's been here the longest, which are not good predictors of.

00:06:37:04 - 00:06:38:19
Kevin Eikenberry
Which are the wrong predictors.

00:06:39:00 - 00:07:01:22
Michael Timms
Right. Exactly. So what I would do is I'd meet with focus groups and different organizations and that I was working with and I would and I would ask them, what are the leadership characteristics that have led to specific positive outcomes in your organization? And they would tell me stories and we would connect the dots between behavior, leadership behaviors and positive outcomes.

00:07:02:00 - 00:07:25:01
Michael Timms
And you're not going to believe what the number one competency was that came up literally, I kid you not. Like I did this dozens and dozens and dozens of focus groups. Every single focus group talked about accountability as being the most important leadership competency. And so I got really, really interested in, accountability. It wasn't just like it actually came up in a couple of different ways.

00:07:25:01 - 00:07:54:09
Michael Timms
So, you know, people said, you know, it was it was leaders who who demonstrated who modeled accountability. Right? That was that was a key competency. But another sort of related but different is leaders who actually help others be accountable. And another one is how leaders can help the entire organization. Like what? What changes can you make to the organization, to the structure, to the processes to help everybody get better results, which is what accountability is about.

00:07:54:11 - 00:08:09:12
Kevin Eikenberry
We're talking about all those things as we go. The I mean, just come back up and, you know, I didn't tell everybody. I did not tell Michael how I was gonna introduce this. I did not tell him that. I sometimes say accountability is the longest four letter word in English language. Here's why I say that's true.

00:08:09:19 - 00:08:30:12
Kevin Eikenberry
Or can be true is that we we never pull the word up until there's a problem, right? Right. I'm going to hold you accountable. But what you're saying, both in the conversation so far and in the book, is that it's ultimately about how, as leaders, can we help people be accountable. You just said, which is a totally different thing than holding you accountable because you screwed up, right?

00:08:30:12 - 00:08:34:01
Kevin Eikenberry
And that sort of thing. So you want to comment on that before we dive in any further?

00:08:34:03 - 00:08:53:18
Michael Timms
Yeah, for sure. I mean, yeah. And that that is a challenge. Well, actually actually it was the, the guy in charge of the Fedex, when I did my TEDx talk, I wanted to to call to talk accountability. He's like Michael, nobody, nobody wants to hear about accountability. It's just, you know, going to put people to sleep.

00:08:54:13 - 00:09:17:06
Michael Timms
But the reality is, is, you know, accountability is a positive thing and gives you power to to get the right results for yourself and for other people. But the challenges, as you pointed out, is that, you know, the the way we use accountability is as a weapon, right? I'm going to hold you accountable. Or when we hear it in the, in the news media, it's, it's it's in that way.

00:09:17:06 - 00:09:42:16
Michael Timms
It's it's, you know, that politician must be held accountable. And really, what they're saying is that politician is at fault. They are to blame and they should be punished. And so what we have done effectively as a society is that we have turned the word accountability and used it as a euphemism for what we're really talking about, which is blame and punishment, which is ironic because blame is the absolute antithesis.

00:09:42:16 - 00:10:02:06
Kevin Eikenberry
Of the opposite of 100%. I found myself as I was reading the book, Michael says, nodding my head a lot. But I also found that there's some things that you wrote that you say I'm almost exactly the same way I do. So I don't know if that means, that both of us need to learn something new, or we're just in an alignment that maybe both.

00:10:03:07 - 00:10:10:19
Kevin Eikenberry
Before we go any further, I probably should say ask you, like, what is your actual definition of accountability?

00:10:11:14 - 00:10:37:09
Michael Timms
Accountability is taking ownership of results and focusing on what you can do. To improve future results. So, hey, I'm going to own whatever my situation is. I'm going to own it. I'm not going to, you know, sit back and blame other people for for why I'm here. Because that's not helpful. And I'm going to focus my attention on what I can do, not what you can do, not what you can do.

00:10:37:19 - 00:10:44:10
Michael Timms
Not what the government can do, not what my boss can do. But what can I do to improve my my future outcomes?

00:10:44:12 - 00:11:02:21
Kevin Eikenberry
So on page 30, in the book, I'm not going to make you this is not a book report. So I will read the quote that I want you to comment on because it's the transition into the rest of our conversation. You say on page 30, accountability is the fulcrum upon which leadership is placed and on which and which gives leadership its power.

00:11:02:21 - 00:11:13:04
Kevin Eikenberry
Let me read it again. Accountability is the fulcrum upon which leadership is placed and which gives leadership its power. What do you mean by that?

00:11:13:21 - 00:11:52:04
Michael Timms
It was actually Stephen Covey who introduced this idea to me, that leadership is the ultimate lever. You know, you know, give me a lever long enough and I can and I can move the world. Right. And leadership is that lever. But, but a lever to be effective, it needs a fulcrum. And so you place that lever on this fulcrum, and, the challenge is, is when you have low accountability, when you're as a, as a person in a leadership position, when you're modeling low accountability, it's like moving the fulcrum kind of all the way, you know, in the wrong direction.

00:11:52:20 - 00:11:54:01
Michael Timms
And so.

00:11:54:03 - 00:11:54:17
Kevin Eikenberry
There's nothing.

00:11:54:17 - 00:12:10:07
Michael Timms
Like, no, there's no leverage. There's no leverage, right. Because nobody because leadership power must be earned. You know, there's authority, and I can I can make you do what I want you to do in the short term, if I threaten you, or.

00:12:10:07 - 00:12:13:10
Kevin Eikenberry
And probably get some compliance. In other words, you can get some compliance.

00:12:13:10 - 00:12:35:00
Michael Timms
But true leadership, which is when I leave the room when I'm not around, are you still going to be doing what I asked you to do, even when there is no kind of obvious carrot and stick? You know, to, to to get you to do those things. And that's the real power of leadership is will I follow this person's direction, even when they're not around?

00:12:35:00 - 00:12:57:15
Michael Timms
And we've seen, you know, the great leaders, you know, of this world, Gandhi, Martin Luther King, you know, Abraham Lincoln, these people, Mother Teresa, these people who, they they still are moving people. They are still inspiring people to move in the direction that they asked them to move in, because they have earned their respect.

00:12:57:17 - 00:13:26:00
Michael Timms
And that's the really cool thing about accountability is, is the ultimate fulcrum. And when you are modeling high accountability, you move that fulcrum all, all the way over to the other side to give you maximum leadership power. And that's the message really, that I would like to get across to, to the world. Is that as you demonstrate accountability, it does give you that, that true leadership power to have people want to follow you.

00:13:26:00 - 00:13:37:11
Michael Timms
The problem is when people call me up, Kevin, usually it's the CEO calls me up and says, Michael, we need to bring you in here because I think we have an accountability problem. And, you know, he's not.

00:13:37:11 - 00:13:39:19
Kevin Eikenberry
Talking about him. You know, like everybody else.

00:13:39:20 - 00:13:45:09
Michael Timms
I'm talking about everybody else. And I'm like, dude, that is the problem. And you know, you know.

00:13:45:11 - 00:13:47:10
Kevin Eikenberry
It's at least part of the problem for sure.

00:13:47:12 - 00:14:00:00
Michael Timms
Right? Well, he is part of the problem. And but people in leadership positions don't see themselves as part of the problem. And that is the problem, right? That is the problem when people in leadership positions don't see themselves as part of the problem.

00:14:00:02 - 00:14:12:11
Kevin Eikenberry
Which gets at one of the habits which we'll get to in a second. There's there's two other things, though, before we get the the book is built around the three habits. We're going to get to those everybody and talk that we won't be able to go into the depth that that I might like or that you might like.

00:14:12:11 - 00:14:36:15
Kevin Eikenberry
And the reason for that is simple part. So you go get the book. So I'm talking with Michael Timms, the author of How Leaders Can Inspire Accountability Three Habits That Make or Break Leaders and Elevate Performance. So but before we get there, there's two other things I want to ask you about. First one is in this book, which you've now outlined and we've been starting to talk about, you have a chapter, excuse me, about systems thinking.

00:14:36:17 - 00:14:45:03
Kevin Eikenberry
And I'm curious, how you see systems thinking fitting in to this conversation.

00:14:45:05 - 00:15:06:04
Michael Timms
Yeah. Systems thinking is. So just to give you just a quick summary of the three habits of personal accountability. First of all, actually, before we even get to the three habits of personal accountability and systems thinking, I will just digress for one moment. And I think it's really important that people understand something critically important about accountability.

00:15:06:06 - 00:15:27:18
Michael Timms
And accountability is about results. It's not about actions. It's not about, it's not about checking the box. It's not about, you know, you know, doing the things on your to do list. It's about taking ownership of results. And there's a really big difference between taking ownership of results and taking ownership of actions, taking ownership of actions and saying, hey, I'm doing everything on my job description.

00:15:27:20 - 00:15:46:15
Michael Timms
You know, I'm done. Kevin, you know, it's, you know, you're the boss. It's up to you, you know, is you're really accountable for what's going on. Taking ownership of results is, is, saying, hey, hey, look, or telling people, hey, look, you know, I don't really, really care. You know, what you need to do?

00:15:46:15 - 00:16:06:03
Michael Timms
Like, this is the goal. These are the results that we're after. Please look at these results. Here's the, you know, basic guideline. Stay within these guidelines. Right. But go get those results. And that actually frees people up. To actually problem solve around the inevitable obstacles that they will face. Right. But if you're saying, hey, look, just do this, just do this, do this.

00:16:06:04 - 00:16:16:16
Michael Timms
If I encounter an obstacle on one of these task, did you give me, I'm going to say, sorry, Kevin, I can't do what you asked me to do because I've encountered this obstacle on this thing. But if you just said, hey, Michael, just go get this thing.

00:16:17:07 - 00:16:17:20
Kevin Eikenberry
I will.

00:16:17:20 - 00:16:39:17
Michael Timms
Go get that thing, I will. That unleashes my potential, my brainpower, and I will problem solve around those things that come up to to achieve that goal. So anyways, I think that's an important digression. I think that's an important starting point. Before we talk about, you know, how to inspire accountability in others. Kind of step one really is to focus people on results, not tasks.

00:16:39:17 - 00:16:56:14
Michael Timms
And I think that is where many leaders, have created a culture of blame, finger pointing, unintentionally because they're, they're, you know, people are saying, well, I did what I was supposed to do. I did what you told me.

00:16:56:14 - 00:16:57:15
Kevin Eikenberry
To do, did my job.

00:16:57:17 - 00:17:07:09
Michael Timms
I'm done. I'm out. And that's that's not the kind of culture that we're trying to create. And but leaders don't realize that they're creating a culture when they focus on people on on tasks.

00:17:07:11 - 00:17:29:23
Kevin Eikenberry
So if I can take that one step further. Yeah, sure. I have been on I've been ranting for a long time about a very related topic which will connect directly to this. And that's the point that we think about. People say that here's another, here's an actual four letter word. Busy, and busy means I've got a lot of tasks to do, but it doesn't say anything about what did you would get accomplished.

00:17:30:02 - 00:17:53:15
Kevin Eikenberry
Like their productivity isn't about time spent, it's about actions. It's about outcomes, right? Right. It's about to use your language about results. And so that same thinking that gets us fouled up or fouls our thinking around productivity is exactly the same thing you're talking about here. And they end up being directly connected because then everyone is now focused as well.

00:17:53:15 - 00:18:00:04
Kevin Eikenberry
I did my stuff. I did the list. I follow the process as opposed to did we get the results?

00:18:00:06 - 00:18:15:20
Michael Timms
Yeah, exactly. And so if leaders can start if you if you really if you're a leader and you're listening to this podcast, I would encourage you to, to first get clear, help your organization get clear on what what are we what do we after? Are we after, you know, people completing the list of tasks or actually after outcomes?

00:18:15:20 - 00:18:35:15
Michael Timms
And if you are after outcomes, which I suspect you are, will then focus people on those outcomes and get really clear on those outcomes. That's your first step to creating a culture of accountability and excellence. So on. But I do want to get to what you were talking about, which is, you know, systems thinking. And how does systems thinking apply to accountability and personal accountability and modeling accountability.

00:18:36:02 - 00:19:06:10
Michael Timms
So with for that, I think I probably the three habits kind of work in sequence. So probably writers start with is it okay if I start with one? I do and I'll give you a brief overview. So the three habits of personal accountability. So how you can influence others. The most powerful thing you can do to influence other people to step up, is for you to raise your level of accountability and know that this every leader you know, if you're in a leadership position, typically you are demonstrating a pretty high level of accountability.

00:19:06:10 - 00:19:28:20
Michael Timms
You probably wouldn't have gone into a leadership position if you're not, you're modeling it to a certain extent, but it's taking it to that next level when you when you, when you take it to the kind of remarkable leadership level of modeling accountability, that's, that's really where you get that power to actually influence other people to step up their game.

00:19:28:22 - 00:20:03:13
Michael Timms
And it's really comes down to three habits to take it to that next level. And the first habit is to don't blame, to stop blaming when things go wrong. We are naturally inclined. Most of us are naturally inclined to find someone or something to blame for our problems. That's not helpful because it kills accountability in ourselves, right? And it says, well, I have no power if, if, if, if 100% of this problem is Kevin's fault, then I have absolutely no power to fix it.

00:20:03:15 - 00:20:23:15
Michael Timms
I've just given away my power to Kevin, you know, to solve this problem. Right? And I've become a helpless victim. So that's so it kills accountability on yourself, but it also kills accountability in other people. When you blame people for problems, it puts them into fight or flight mode, and they are not using. So what happens when you get into fight or flight mode?

00:20:23:17 - 00:20:42:23
Michael Timms
It actually shuts down your prefrontal cortex. So that so the problem solving part of your brain shuts down and all you care about is defending yourself. You're not concerned about solving problems. You're concerned about defending yourself. And so when you blame people, you're actually shutting down the part of the brain that could solve the problem that you're blaming them for.

00:20:42:23 - 00:20:59:00
Michael Timms
But they can't because you just shut down that part of the brain. But another thing that blame does is and, you know, a lot of there's a lot of books out right now about trust. We want to build trust, you know, and there's a lot of thinking around how do you build trust? Here's the number one way to build trust.

00:20:59:06 - 00:21:24:02
Michael Timms
Stop destroying it by blaming people. All right okay. That's the number one secret to building trust is to stop destroying trust because nothing kills trust quicker to blame sometimes. Habit number one, don't blame. Okay. So okay, what do you do instead if I'm if something goes wrong and I am not and I'm going to say, hey, I'm not going to blame people because I know it's a bad thing and it causes a lot of dysfunction.

00:21:24:02 - 00:21:40:19
Michael Timms
What do I do next? Next thing you should do is take a look at yourself and say, hey, look, did I have a part to play in this, in this undesirable outcome? And it's called look in the mirror. So how about you is look in the mirror, you know, and say, how may I have contributed to this problem?

00:21:40:19 - 00:22:01:18
Michael Timms
And when you ask yourself sincerely, you ask yourself that question. Even if I've done this, I've done this when I'm convinced it's 100% somebody else's fault, I said, fine, I will ask the stupid question how may I have contributed to this problem? And when I actually verbalize that question, all of a sudden my my mind is open. I'm like.

00:22:01:21 - 00:22:04:00
Kevin Eikenberry
Well, I could have I might have.

00:22:04:00 - 00:22:24:21
Michael Timms
Actually, now that I mention it, now that I asked myself that question, I'm like, oh, shoot, now I actually do see something I could have done at or and, or something I can do. And that's really empowering when because again, you know, now that I have taken ownership of at least part of that problem, that is my power, right?

00:22:24:23 - 00:22:44:17
Michael Timms
Maybe if I say, hey, I've got, you know, 20% of this, let's say 80% of this is outside my control, that somebody else or something else. Me 20% of this problem is on me. And I can kind of own about 20% of it. That's 20% more power that I now have to create a better future than my present.

00:22:44:19 - 00:23:08:06
Michael Timms
Okay, so that's again how taking ownership gives you personal power. Now, and by the way, if you sincerely ask that question and you can't see how you have contributed to this problem, it is probably worth your while to ask other people say, hey, like Kevin, honestly, you know, this is this is not, like, I don't want to blame anybody.

00:23:08:06 - 00:23:30:20
Michael Timms
This is a problem. I honestly can't see how I've contributed this problem. Kevin, is there anything you can see that I could have done differently to produce a better outcome? Right. Because not only am I actually getting important information from you, potentially, I'm also building trust because instantly you respect me more, right? Instantly when people actually are willing to say, hey, I am willing to own this.

00:23:30:20 - 00:23:50:07
Michael Timms
If this if any of this is on me, you instantly respect them more. And you and you trust them more. So that's what that does. So now let's say, okay, you know, let's say I can own a part of this, but there's, there's other things that are going on here. Habit three is engineering the solution.

00:23:50:07 - 00:24:13:19
Michael Timms
That is systems thinking and systems thinking says that, there are likely so, you know, as a, as a society, science, we've done a lot of work on figuring out why bad things happen, why problems happen. And the more we learn about, why problems happen, the more we've discovered that, problems happen for usually a combination of factors.

00:24:13:19 - 00:24:41:09
Michael Timms
It's usually not 100% one person's fault or 100%, you know, somebody else's, you know, or this other, external factors fault. Right? There's usually a combination of factors. And that's really what systems thinking helps us do is again, opens our minds up to other possibilities. Okay. So this is my part. Could systems have contributed? Could poor systems have, you know, kind of laid a trap for this individual to make this mistake?

00:24:41:09 - 00:25:04:14
Michael Timms
I'll give you a just kind of a simple example. One time, like I use life pulling, you know, I use life pulling in my presentations and there's a bunch of different templates that we have, and we're constantly kind of, you know, we have these templates, but then we'll use these templates for a different client and then, and so we've got a bunch of our templates on our work in process, kind of all in the same area.

00:25:04:14 - 00:25:22:11
Michael Timms
One time one of our templates got deleted. And I knew it wasn't me. And then my sister knew it wasn't her. And so it had to be the other person in the organization. And my system was like, I am going to murder Mel, you know it. And I was like, okay, well, before we murder Melissa, let's think about, you know, let's let's go through the three habits.

00:25:22:12 - 00:25:43:13
Michael Timms
First of all, let's not blame her. You know, I'm still frustrated. She's still frustrated. Okay, let's look in the mirror. How may I have contributed this problem? As soon as I asked that question, I realized my assistant, her name was carrying. I said, hey, Carrie. Actually, you know what? Honestly, I have almost accidentally deleted one of those templates, and she kind of sheepishly is like, you know what sort of I almost accidentally.

00:25:43:13 - 00:25:54:08
Michael Timms
And why why have we almost at why both of us almost accidentally deleted one of these is because our templates were mixed in with our work in process. Right? And that is a recipe for problems, right?

00:25:54:08 - 00:25:57:05
Kevin Eikenberry
There was a different folder and we had different folder.

00:25:57:05 - 00:26:13:05
Michael Timms
Right. That's all we did. And so we put them in a different folder. And I'll tell you what that did. So and that's what systems thinking does I say hey when we start to say what were, what were some of the other factors that are involved? Then we can build better processes to make sure that we don't make the same mistakes again.

00:26:13:05 - 00:26:32:23
Michael Timms
And that was really kind of the the incremental path to excellence, is to think about all those other factors. And, and by the way, in that situation, that was going to be, because another person or organization reported to carry that would have been had we not walked through those three habits of personal accountability, that would have been a very uncomfortable conversation for Mal to have with carry kids carry admin.

00:26:33:02 - 00:26:49:00
Michael Timms
You should have been more careful, you know, how could you have let this happen? And Mal would have felt bad because she knew she did it right, or she would have thought no. Maybe she forgot. Maybe she didn't know she did it and she would have thought, carry on it and it would have been a bad situation either way.

00:26:49:02 - 00:27:05:05
Michael Timms
But the way that situation turned out is carriages went to Mal and said, hey, Mal, by the way, heads up. We have realized that, you know, one of our, you know, we're deleting our templates by accident. We create a new folder. Heads up. This is just our new process, right? Great. Problem solved. And what do we do?

00:27:05:05 - 00:27:24:04
Michael Timms
We really care about making Mal feel bad. And I think partly when we blame people, it just makes us feel better. Right? You are stupid. We are smart. Right? And we're going to beat you up. And that's partly why we blame people. But that is not helpful at all. What is helpful is solving problems to make sure that they don't happen again.

00:27:24:04 - 00:27:26:18
Michael Timms
And that's where systems thinking comes in.

00:27:26:20 - 00:27:48:02
Kevin Eikenberry
So how do we so as I was reading the section on engineering solutions, and I certainly follow the logic and I think it makes sense, and you talk a lot about processes as you've just done in this example, we you where you started was I'm going to unleash people to go own the problem and solve the problem.

00:27:48:02 - 00:27:52:10
Kevin Eikenberry
How do we juxtapose that against here's our process.

00:27:52:12 - 00:28:07:03
Michael Timms
You know, actually processes are a fantastic way to engineer the solution. And processes. Now some organizations, either you know, they can over process things and.

00:28:07:05 - 00:28:09:09
Kevin Eikenberry
And kind of where I get it here. Okay.

00:28:09:15 - 00:28:31:04
Michael Timms
So you can have a process for everything. And that then what that does is that builds kind of shrinking walls around your people's brains. Right. And that gives them smaller and smaller boxes. So the here's generally speaking, there's kind of two, two factors you want to consider. Before you build a process. Is it worthy of a process?

00:28:31:04 - 00:28:50:07
Michael Timms
Number one, is this something that will repeat again in the future? Several times. Right? Numerous times. Right. If it's going to repeat, this is a task. If this is work that we're going to have to repeat over and over again, that's one factor to consider. Another factor to consider is how how important is the is is getting the outcome right.

00:28:50:19 - 00:28:54:16
Michael Timms
How or how, you know, how important is it to get the outcome right. And if.

00:28:54:16 - 00:29:02:08
Kevin Eikenberry
You only one right answer, which is one that I often think about, right. Is there one right answer here? Yeah. And something I probably need to process.

00:29:02:10 - 00:29:22:23
Michael Timms
Sometimes there sometimes there is, and I'll tell you in a, in a situation where it's really important to follow processes is when there's a safety issue. Right? We follow these processes that on the surface kind of seem kind of, bureaucratic or whatever, but we follow that because we have learned through that experience that if we don't follow this process, people get hurt.

00:29:23:10 - 00:29:50:05
Michael Timms
That's a really high consequence for not following a process. Right? For sure. And so, and so what process is actually free up, you know, when you're, when you're doing it strategically, when you're saying, hey, look, we're we're doing it for our processes that are repeat and have high consequences. If it doesn't go right, what happens is that then, processes are checklists.

00:29:50:07 - 00:30:16:08
Michael Timms
They're actually a mental hack because what they allow you to do is not expend so much mental energy trying to make all of these micro decisions along the way. And you can just simply just follow that, that, that, you know, kind of checklist for this important process while freeing up your brain to be focused on the outcome, to be focused on the results, because there might be little tweaks to that process as you're going, oh, this is a different this is a different result.

00:30:16:08 - 00:30:48:22
Michael Timms
This is a slightly different situation. We might need to tweak that process just a little bit. Right. You can't you can't do that. Right. If you can't, it's really tough to stay focused on the outcome when you don't have a process and you're you're expending mental energy making all of these micro decisions along the way. And so that's the that's the brilliant thing about, engineering solutions and checklists and having processes, standard operating procedures.

00:30:49:16 - 00:30:55:19
Michael Timms
Is, is really kind of a, it's a mental hack. But you got to do it strategically.

00:30:55:21 - 00:31:17:19
Kevin Eikenberry
So we've talked about the three habits. We've talked about what accounting means about accountability means we've talked about how it needs to start with us, and that it isn't something we do to others, but something we do with others. And it starts with us. Is there anything that I didn't ask or we didn't talk about, Michael, that in a couple final minutes that you would want to add?

00:31:17:21 - 00:31:34:05
Michael Timms
Yeah. I think one of the things I think one of the things people ask me often is, okay, well, what if it really is somebody else's fault, you know, can we can we blame on them? And my answer to that question is would it be helpful, you know, what are you trying to achieve? How is that something anything.

00:31:34:05 - 00:31:34:17
Kevin Eikenberry
Yeah.

00:31:34:19 - 00:32:01:11
Michael Timms
Are you trying to produce a better outcome or are you just trying to get them to take ownership for their head and shame and and they're there. So the point is, is that it's not like there is never, never a time and place for you to have a tough conversation. There is. Absolutely. And that is one of the ways that, you know, when we talk about I talked about there's a couple of different, you know, key leadership conferences around accountability.

00:32:01:11 - 00:32:25:12
Michael Timms
One is, you know, modeling accountability. The other is how do we hold other people accountable when they're not, you know, when they're not, taking accountability themselves? There's a time and place to have those tough conversations. But the problem is, is the our brains are wired such that we immediately when there's a problem, we immediately go to it's 100% of this person's fault, or it's 100% the situation's fault and it's 0% on me.

00:32:25:22 - 00:32:27:04
Michael Timms
And it's 0%.

00:32:27:04 - 00:32:29:10
Kevin Eikenberry
Zero and 100. It's real.

00:32:29:12 - 00:32:49:09
Michael Timms
And the other thing is, is and it's and it has nothing to do with the processes, right? It has. It's all because that person is an idiot. Or they're lazy or they're unmotivated or whatever. Right. And that is actually it's it's actually it's a psychological gremlin that exists in all of our brains, is one of the most well studied psychological phenomenon called the fundamental attribution bias.

00:32:49:19 - 00:33:11:04
Michael Timms
And we immediately go to other people, and we ignore all of the other factors that contribute to these problems. So my point is this is that first, focus on if you want to build accountability within your organization. First, model accountability yourself. Actually, first, make sure that everybody understands that it's about it's about outcomes. It's about results.

00:33:11:04 - 00:33:29:18
Michael Timms
Focus people on the results, not the tasks. But then model it yourself. And as you model it yourself, you make it way safer for other people to step up and take accountability and say, you know what? Yeah. You know what? I think there are some problems. Maybe there's some process problems here, maybe that didn't go well.

00:33:29:18 - 00:33:49:07
Michael Timms
And you know what? This is probably part of this is on me to be far more likely to get that response and get people to truly take ownership. When you're modeling a high standard of accountability. And that's really all we're as leaders, that's really that's the key behavior we're looking for from employees is, hey, when things go wrong, just own your part.

00:33:49:13 - 00:33:57:04
Michael Timms
Focus on solutions, and let's make sure that it doesn't happen again. Right? Fix it and then make sure that doesn't happen again for sure.

00:33:57:06 - 00:34:11:11
Kevin Eikenberry
So, a couple of things before we go, Michael, kind of shifting gears before we finish, and the first one is this when you're not working with leaders and talking about accountability, what do you do for fun?

00:34:11:13 - 00:34:38:18
Michael Timms
Oh, well, I, I love the outdoors. I, I live in British Columbia, which is kind of nature's playground. There's lots of mountains and lakes and stuff where I live. And, so, like, the mountain bike, like to snow ski and, hike and camp and so on. Yeah. And I have, I have, three teenage daughters who, keep me active as well, and a wonderful wife.

00:34:38:18 - 00:34:43:21
Michael Timms
So we like to hang, hang out as a family and do fun stuff outside and travel.

00:34:43:23 - 00:34:50:15
Kevin Eikenberry
And the only thing you knew, I was going to ask. The only thing I prompted you and told you I was going to ask you, is this. What are you reading these days?

00:34:50:17 - 00:35:10:05
Michael Timms
Yeah, I think, you know, I, I try to read stuff that a lot of people are like, well, who's a great example of accountability? And one of the great I think, models of accountability we kind of learn from is Dwight Eisenhower. And, I, I've recently read a book by his granddaughter, Susan Eisenhower called How Ike LED.

00:35:10:21 - 00:35:23:04
Michael Timms
You know what? We could all stand to, to try to be a little bit more like Ike. And so, yeah, that's a it's a good book recommendation trivia moment.

00:35:23:06 - 00:35:41:10
Kevin Eikenberry
When Kevin was a kid with the last name of Eikenberry, I was often called Ike. So I have never said that out loud before in the setting. Here it is now. Me like. Like me like, be like. Like. There you go. So, where where can we find out more about your work, about the book? Where do you want to point people?

00:35:41:10 - 00:35:43:11
Kevin Eikenberry
Michael, before we wrap up.

00:35:43:13 - 00:36:03:09
Michael Timms
Yeah. So, just hack Google Michael Tims, and you'll, you'll find me. I think for people who want to get a quick introduction to my work, I think you'll enjoy the the Ted talk. So it's called How to Claim Your Leadership power. So if you just Google Michael Tims, actually, that's probably one of the first things it'll pop up.

00:36:03:15 - 00:36:18:16
Michael Timms
So I encourage you to check that out. And if you'd like to learn more about how I work with organizations and help them to build a culture of accountability and excellence, you'll you'll be able to see, find my website and get in touch.

00:36:18:18 - 00:36:36:09
Kevin Eikenberry
Michael tims.com everybody. And I hope that you'll do that. And before we go and before Michael and I say our goodbyes, the question that I will ask you, it is an accountability question, everybody, because it's a question based on results. A question I ask every single week is now what what will you do with what you got here?

00:36:36:13 - 00:37:00:23
Kevin Eikenberry
It's not the action. The activity is well, I listen to a podcast. That result come when you take action on what you learned. And I'm not here to tell you what you should take action on, but rather to encourage you urge you, implore you to ask this question, what will I do now? Based on what I learned from Michael and Kevin, and I hope that you will answer that question and take those actions.

00:37:01:01 - 00:37:12:17
Kevin Eikenberry
Because when you do, you will get better results and you will be doing exactly what Michael said, which is modeling accountability yourself. Michael, thanks so much for being here. It was a pleasure to have you.

00:37:12:19 - 00:37:13:10
Michael Timms
Thanks for having me.

00:37:13:16 - 00:37:35:23
Kevin Eikenberry
Take care everybody. We will be back next week. If you listen, if you love this, I hope you did, tell somebody else. Tell them to come join us next week. Or come back and listen to this or wherever you are listening to this. Make sure you subscribe so you don't miss any future episodes. Because we're back every week, and we will be back next week with another episode of the Remarkable Leadership Podcast.

00:37:36:01 - 00:37:36:15
Kevin Eikenberry
We'll see you this.