The Remarkable Leadership Podcast

00:00:08:13 - 00:00:29:09
Kevin Eikenberry
This episode is in about an A is about an important leadership, career and life skill communication. At one level, it's all about being a more effective communicator in the public. But as our guest says, all communication is public. Whether you are a seasoned speaker or would rather do just about anything, rather than speak in front of a group.

00:00:29:11 - 00:00:50:01
Kevin Eikenberry
You will love this episode, I promise. Welcome to another episode of the Remarkable Leadership Podcast, where we are helping leaders grow personally and professionally to lead more effectively and make a bigger difference for their teams, organizations and the world. If you are listening to this podcast in the future, you could join us live on your favorite social media channel.

00:00:50:06 - 00:01:15:21
Kevin Eikenberry
You can find out when those episodes are happening and how you can get connected with them by joining our Facebook or LinkedIn groups. Two of the platforms where these episodes, start out. And so you can go to either remarkable podcast dot coms, Facebook or remarkable podcast dot coms linked in to find all that out. Join us in those spots.

00:01:16:02 - 00:01:40:01
Kevin Eikenberry
Today's episode is brought to you by my latest book, Flexible Leadership. Navigate Uncertainty and Lead with Confidence. It's time to realize that styles can get in our way, and that following our strengths might not always be the best approach in a world more complex and uncertain than ever. Leaders need a new perspective, a new set of tools to create great results for their organizations and team members.

00:01:40:07 - 00:02:03:00
Kevin Eikenberry
That's what flexible leadership provides you. You can learn more and order your copy today at remarkable podcast.com/flexible. Hope you'll do that. And let me now bring in my guest. I will introduce him to you and then we will dive in. Michael Hepner is my guest. You can see him now. Michael Chad Hebner is the author of The new book or the recently released book.

00:02:03:00 - 00:02:34:06
Kevin Eikenberry
Don't Say. He's an adjunct professor at Columbia Business School and the CEO and president of G. K training, a firm dedicated to helping giving organizations. Excuse me? Giving individuals, companies, and organizations the communication skills necessary to reach their highest goals in work and life. As an individual speaking coach, his clients have included Andrew Yang, Xerox, the Boston Consulting Group, Pfizer, Columbia University Business School, NYU Law School, and many others.

00:02:34:11 - 00:02:59:22
Kevin Eikenberry
His expertise lies in every aspect of communication public speaking, business development, executive presence, interpersonal agility, and much more. He is among the growing chorus of voices identifying the link between the physical aspects of spoken communication and the broader issues of health and wellness. We'll probably get there before we're done. Michael, welcome.

00:03:00:00 - 00:03:03:05
Michael Hoeppner
Thank you so much. I appreciate the introduction and I'm happy to be here.

00:03:03:07 - 00:03:26:17
Kevin Eikenberry
I'm glad to have you here. So, I'm going to hold this book up again. While I well, I'll get to that in a second before we get to that. When you were 8 or 10 years old, you probably didn't say, I'm going to be a communication expert and I'm going to write a book. So tell us a little bit about your journey that leads you to, I mean, what can be the abbreviated journey?

00:03:26:19 - 00:03:34:20
Kevin Eikenberry
We need to start with the day you were born. But, seriously, give us a little bit of a sense of the journey that leads you to doing the work that you're doing today.

00:03:34:21 - 00:03:58:14
Michael Hoeppner
Yeah. Well, when I was eight, I think I wanted to be an archeologist or a marine biologist. So, yes, this is quite different. The very short version of it is that I was a professional performer for some time. I was a professional actor, Broadway, film, TV, and got my MFA at NYU in the graduate acting program. But much more interesting than how people portray different characters.

00:03:58:16 - 00:04:29:13
Michael Hoeppner
I found what was the most interesting was how they learned to play different characters. And what I discovered was it very quickly, a physical approach could be profoundly important. Okay, so that's the start of it. But then I founded the company in 2010 to begin to help people speak better. And what I developed was there was a whole series of physical exercises and things that activate what's called embodied cognition that could help people get out of these traps that they had been in their entire life.

00:04:29:15 - 00:04:56:03
Michael Hoeppner
And the first time I helped someone get out of that, it was this person who thought they could not memorize. Period. Like anything. And it was so remarkable and transformative for this person. I just saw this liberation lift off of or sorry they were liberated. I saw this weight lift off of them, and I just became totally sold on this idea of spending time, spending my life really helping people.

00:04:56:03 - 00:04:59:02
Michael Hoeppner
And focusing on other people.

00:04:59:04 - 00:05:18:06
Kevin Eikenberry
We're going to get to that. That bigger idea of the physical component of all this in a minute. Why the book specifically the book is called Don't Say And by the way, I'm a big fan of where you started with the book because I say this, I say the same thing that the first word there don't is a big problem.

00:05:18:08 - 00:05:25:08
Kevin Eikenberry
We'll get to that second. Why the book? Why did you why was the book the next step in this journey for you?

00:05:25:10 - 00:05:35:13
Michael Hoeppner
Yeah. Well, I say as much in the introduction. So if you're listening and you have the book, you'll know this already. But, you know, one of the foundational. Oh, go ahead. We're going to say something I was going.

00:05:35:13 - 00:05:43:15
Kevin Eikenberry
To say, if you're listening, you're going to want to get a copy. And you probably don't have one yet. So you might as well go ahead and do that. But go ahead.

00:05:43:17 - 00:05:59:23
Michael Hoeppner
Yeah, I we should go even further, shouldn't we, since you're listening, not even if you're listening. Since you're here and listening, you should get a copy of the book. And if you already have a copy of the book, you will know this. So Andrew Yang, who was one of the presidential candidates that I've coached, he had a bad debate performance in his first debate.

00:05:59:23 - 00:06:13:09
Michael Hoeppner
His campaign flew me across the country to help him for the second, and we worked together for ten days, and he course corrected his campaign because of that next debate. A little bit my credit, a lot his credit. So that's not to to make me sound like a miracle worker.

00:06:13:09 - 00:06:15:19
Kevin Eikenberry
So he did the work, right. He did the work he did.

00:06:15:19 - 00:06:37:15
Michael Hoeppner
That's the thing. My coaching changes very little person to person. What changes a bunch is that people actually do the things I suggest. So anyway, I mean, you can probably guess this. There's a price attached to flying someone across the country and spending ten days in intensive communication, coaching and not everyone can can do that, but everybody can buy a book for 27 bucks.

00:06:37:17 - 00:06:54:14
Michael Hoeppner
And so I have tried to make this book is absolutely jam packed with the exact same kind of stuff that I give, you know, the high powered executives and presidential candidates and folks like that that I work with make this accessible to anyone, anywhere, who's willing to put in the time to either read or listen.

00:06:54:15 - 00:07:11:22
Kevin Eikenberry
So the subtitle of the book is How to Communicate Effectively to Live a Better Life, which is the title of the, episode of the show. What's, I don't know that that's exactly it. What's the big idea? What would you say is the big idea? Michael, of the book?

00:07:12:00 - 00:07:47:14
Michael Hoeppner
Yeah, the big idea. Is that you listening? Watching currently have a wrong idea about speaking. And that is, it is all thinking. If I think smart ideas, I'll say smart ideas. Speaking is a physical activity, takes over 100 muscles to do it, and the best way to get better at it and to change or overcome old bad habits is by using kinesthetic learning, like an athlete or a dancer or an artist, and building muscle memory via something fancy called embodied cognition said a whole lot more.

00:07:47:14 - 00:07:53:20
Michael Hoeppner
Simply speaking, is a sport and you are a communication athlete.

00:07:53:21 - 00:08:16:01
Kevin Eikenberry
And so I think of the physical part here in two ways. One is and you've you've now said it twice. It's super important. And I want to get to some examples of that in a couple of minutes, that getting better at these skills requires us. And when we when we when we're wise and learn from you using our bodies can help us do that, which is awesome.

00:08:16:06 - 00:08:39:16
Kevin Eikenberry
And communication itself is a whole body activity, right? Not just that getting better at it, but the doing of it. You can you say a little bit because we're going to get to the kinesthetic learning part in a little bit, but say a little bit more about why communication is more than just talking?

00:08:39:18 - 00:08:58:22
Michael Hoeppner
Yeah. Well if we not if since, since people are watching this and those who are only listening and not watching, if we just watched what you did in the last 30 seconds, your hand entered the frame, your head moved a little, your mouth open so much that we could see gaps between your teeth, which is good. By the way, thank you.

00:08:58:22 - 00:09:00:10
Kevin Eikenberry
So much for sharing that.

00:09:00:12 - 00:09:29:06
Michael Hoeppner
Yeah. You're welcome. You're welcome. We are communication instruments in order to turn air into sound and then sound into words, we move in these myriad ways. Our diaphragm drops down, our lungs fill with air, and then the air flows over our vocal cords, and then we modulate and adapt and alter that air with this miraculous active enunciation right here, using our tongue and our lips and our soft palate and our jaw.

00:09:29:11 - 00:09:44:13
Michael Hoeppner
It's a physical thing. So it's not even too much to say that if you do this better, which is partly why the subtitle is what it is, if you do this better, it's like a tiny little bit of exercise or health and wellness you can give yourself every single day.

00:09:44:15 - 00:10:03:15
Kevin Eikenberry
Look at that. Everybody you didn't know you were coming to the Remarkable Leadership Podcast and leaving with fitness tips. But that's kind of what we're talking about here. Now you have it. We're going to go way beyond that. I hinted that I love how you open the book by talking about the fact that the title is not very effective in terms of using that word don't.

00:10:03:15 - 00:10:19:12
Kevin Eikenberry
And you talk about the idea of thought suppression. It's such an important idea in communication. Both the communication we have with ourselves and with others. Talk about this idea of thought suppression and and why it's so important.

00:10:19:14 - 00:10:47:12
Michael Hoeppner
Yeah, thought suppression fools you into thinking that you can accomplish it, don't. It goes deeper than just like, don't be negative or something. If I tell you right now, don't think about your brain is getting ready to fixate on whatever comes next. You know, the classic one is a pink elephant. But what is happening right there is you're doing something called distinction, which is you are distinguishing between one thing and another.

00:10:47:12 - 00:11:08:06
Michael Hoeppner
And in that moment, your brain has to put on one side of a scale this thing you're trying not to fixate on, and on the other, the rest of the known universe. So your brain is obligated, obligated to fixate on the thing you're telling it not to do now, easy to do in a title of a book. Hard to do in life.

00:11:08:06 - 00:11:27:19
Michael Hoeppner
And if you don't believe me that this is difficult to put into place, tell me that as a parent, sometimes when I tell my kids relentless adults, yes, exactly. Nevertheless, if you're trying to get better as a communicator, giving yourself a thousand don'ts is the worst thing you can do and the most sort of relatable example is gestures.

00:11:27:20 - 00:11:44:00
Michael Hoeppner
If you ask people what you should do with your gestures, they will launch into a thousand don'ts. Don't do this. Don't do that on this. Don't point of the camera. Don't write all these don'ts, and all that does is make them think about two things the thing they're really bad at and trying not to do, and also themselves.

00:11:44:02 - 00:12:10:17
Michael Hoeppner
But as you've so eloquently, eloquently put in various episodes, the point is the other person, the point is not you and how good you look or how great your gestures are. The point is, are you reaching the other person or not? Are you listening to the other person or not? And so that's why this, this title, which hopefully helps people pick it up because they do want to stop saying, but very quickly point out to them, no, we're not going to traffic in thought suppression.

00:12:10:17 - 00:12:14:21
Michael Hoeppner
It doesn't work. And we're going to take a very different approach.

00:12:14:23 - 00:12:36:04
Kevin Eikenberry
Yeah. So your whole point about gestures, I'm laughing and I'm smiling along with you. I'm not laughing at you, I promise. Because I have done a good bit of this kind of work training trainers, helping people with speaking groups and that sort of stuff. And so, so much of this of what you talk about in this book resonates so much.

00:12:36:04 - 00:13:01:19
Kevin Eikenberry
And the two thing, the three things that people talk about, want to talk about. One is gestures. And so get this everybody. The gesture piece is also a part of the physical nature of the communication. Right. Like one of the reasons that we want, one of the values of having, of being able to watch us if you are watching us is that you can see our gestures, our facial expressions, not just hear the words.

00:13:01:21 - 00:13:24:04
Kevin Eikenberry
And that adds richness to the communication. If you have that versus if you don't. And the second one is the filler word. What do I do about the filler words? And probably the most classic one of all is the one in the title. So I can't have you on the show and not talk about the filler words.

00:13:24:06 - 00:13:36:10
Kevin Eikenberry
So what is your advice? Yeah, which would be better than saying don't say like what's the what's the advice around filler words?

00:13:36:12 - 00:13:48:09
Michael Hoeppner
The advice is the same no matter what the filler word is by the way. So the filler word could also be like or kind of a sort of. I actually had a client one time who viscerally was his go to filler word. Yeah. I'm not.

00:13:48:10 - 00:13:51:04
Kevin Eikenberry
I read that in the book and I was like, I can't even imagine that one.

00:13:51:09 - 00:14:19:09
Michael Hoeppner
Yeah. That's right. I mean, because the criteria I give people to think about filler is one is it grammatically necessary? And two, are you aware you're doing it? And if the answer to both of those questions is no, that's a filler word for you. Yeah, exactly. But yes, is the most common one. And the reason you title the book, they don't say, and then bring up the topic of thought suppression is because fixating on the filler just leads to more filler.

00:14:19:11 - 00:14:38:18
Michael Hoeppner
The way to get rid of filler is not to try to get rid of it. The way to get rid of it is actually to increase your focus on the words you're trying to choose. So here's the example. A kid runs in front of a bus. Nobody screams, look out! There's a, bus. No one does that.

00:14:38:20 - 00:15:03:09
Michael Hoeppner
Because in that heightened moment, we need specific words. And so our brain quickly sifts through all these words and grabs the important, potent ones and spits them out. And so what you have to do is build your muscle of actually choosing words. And I call that linguistic precision. But you being in charge of the words that come out of your mouth, as opposed to just opening your mouth and seeing what words come out.

00:15:03:11 - 00:15:16:18
Michael Hoeppner
I'll show you an exercise to do this, by the way. So the exercise that the gold standard here is you. And I'll do this on the screen so people can see that. Now let me take a moment. Actually, as long as I'm going to close a curtain, cause I've got this big blast of sunshine on my shirt here.

00:15:16:22 - 00:15:21:05
Michael Hoeppner
Because I want you to be able to see my hand. Give me a moment.

00:15:21:07 - 00:15:42:05
Kevin Eikenberry
This is. This is the world of real life. Live commentary, everybody. Because we had the we had the light earlier and then it went away. But the sun moves and so the sun was back. So anyway, I was I wanted us to get to because I think one of the great things about this book is the specific exercises throughout.

00:15:42:05 - 00:15:45:02
Kevin Eikenberry
So I'm glad that you're going here. So go for it.

00:15:45:04 - 00:16:23:16
Michael Hoeppner
Yeah. So I did that purpose because I want you to be able to see my hand and the bright sunlight was blocking it. So the exercise here is that I actually have people walk their fingers across a surface, table, desk, whatever it might be, and choose each and every single word that comes out of their mouth. If they don't know what to say next, or if they hear themselves say an or an they have to stop walking the fingers for a moment and rededicate themselves to the specific purpose of choosing words.

00:16:23:18 - 00:16:43:21
Michael Hoeppner
Now, you practice that enough, and then very quickly you get much, much better at choosing your words. And that's where true articulate this comes from. You being able to tolerate the time you need to choose words, as opposed to just letting the passive ones fly out, like, kind of sort of like kind of, sort of, kind of like,

00:16:43:23 - 00:17:13:21
Kevin Eikenberry
Having the patience, having the awareness. Right. Oftentimes we will say replace it with the pause, which is useful. But what you're saying is more specific than that. What is the next word? And I really, really love that you mentioned something else I wanted to get to, too. Is the idea of linguistic precision. And as I was reading that beginning part of the chapter, I immediately started, I'm being honest, like saying, yep, I got a good vocabulary.

00:17:13:21 - 00:17:29:04
Kevin Eikenberry
So I'm doing good on this one. I mean, I know there's a risk to the vocabulary, but like, talk about that difference because you're not saying that linguistic precision is directly the same thing as having a bigger vocabulary. Talk about both of those things a little bit more.

00:17:29:06 - 00:17:51:21
Michael Hoeppner
Sure, we're both meaning the vocabulary and linguistic precision, correct? Yeah, well, you're exactly right. There's a huge trap of having a big vocabulary, thinking that that makes you articulate. It's only articulate if you can use those really powerful, smart words in context and in sentences that are actually conveying smart ideas.

00:17:52:00 - 00:17:54:19
Kevin Eikenberry
That get understood by the other person. Oh, by the way.

00:17:54:21 - 00:18:20:12
Michael Hoeppner
Yes. Exactly. Right. So linguistic precision does not mean having a huge vocabulary. It means being able to choose among the words you do have in your vocabulary. Choose the right words in the right moment for the right audience. Now, the reason I call it linguistic precision is because that's what I'm hoping people can develop through. This book is actual precision linguistically choosing what they want to say.

00:18:20:14 - 00:18:39:01
Michael Hoeppner
And it's good that you have a huge vocabulary. Good for you. I'm not even, you know, gently poking fun. I really do mean that. That's great. And there is a there is a threat in our world right now, for sure, where everything gets reduced to like L-O-L or BT dubs, right? Everything becomes that really simple. It's not even.

00:18:39:01 - 00:18:40:08
Kevin Eikenberry
A W anymore, it's a.

00:18:40:08 - 00:19:04:20
Michael Hoeppner
W. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So I mean, I want to maybe some blog piece. All right. Will be like the title I've been playing with is In Defense of an Erudite vocabulary, because I really do want to point out that words are useful, and we've invented these amazing words for really important reasons. So let's not throw that effort down the river just because we spend a lot of time in front of screens, shall we?

00:19:04:21 - 00:19:13:08
Michael Hoeppner
But do not mistake having a big vocabulary with actually being able to deploy that vocabulary with articulate is.

00:19:13:10 - 00:19:39:05
Kevin Eikenberry
At 100%. So I said it earlier, Michael, that one of the things that sets this book apart, in fact, I'll be honest, when I first got the book, I'm like, there's a like, by the way, and there's an, When I first got the book, my thought was, oh, that's useful, that's interesting. I don't know if if I want to have it on the show.

00:19:39:05 - 00:20:12:02
Kevin Eikenberry
And then I didn't read it before I decided, but I looked at it a lot before I decide which is what I do with every book before we make a decision and what I immediately noted that makes it different from any other of the books that I've read in this area, of which that several is that in every every piece of the puzzle, whether that's, about pace, whether that's about tone, whether it's about articulate this, all of these things, you've got physical exercises to help us get better.

00:20:12:04 - 00:20:41:15
Kevin Eikenberry
And so you've given us one with the fingers. So you just pick another one, because I want people to have another example, because it's a way that sets this book apart. And it's a reason why everyone ought to have a copy of this, because there's something in here that's an area of improvement for all of us. And and in every case, you're giving us tangible, although maybe unusual and maybe seemingly strange at first.

00:20:41:17 - 00:20:47:00
Kevin Eikenberry
Tangible, specific exercises to use. Pick another one and share it.

00:20:47:02 - 00:21:06:15
Michael Hoeppner
I'll share the first one that I get you in the book in chapter six on conciseness and structure. And this relies on some objects. So in the book, readers actually have a page they can rip out and tear up into six pieces. But in real life, Lego blocks are the gold standard. But you can also use post-it notes, and you can actually use any object that you want to.

00:21:06:16 - 00:21:30:08
Michael Hoeppner
There's a there's a page, folks. Look at how well prepared Kevin is. You can just flip to the page instantly. Wow. Thank you. The intimately thank you. The way the exercise works is this you consider some subject that you want to talk about. Now you don't just launch into it and you don't say 25 ideas at once. You think about the subject for a moment and you pick up the first object.

00:21:30:11 - 00:21:57:13
Michael Hoeppner
I'll talk it through using a Lego block as the object we're imagining. But you again, you can use different things. You pick up the first Lego block in silence, and then you share your first idea, not your first three ideas or five ideas or 25. Your first idea. And you can think of this like a single sentence at the end of that sentence where a period might go, you place the object out the Lego block or scrap a paper or post-it note.

00:21:57:15 - 00:22:20:05
Michael Hoeppner
Have to maintain silence when you do that. No talking in silence, you pick up the next object. Let's say it's a Lego block. Pick up the second Lego block and you share your second thought at the end. At that thought again in silence. Kind of like where the period would go at the end of the sentence. You click that second Lego block in place with the first silent pick up the third one.

00:22:20:07 - 00:22:43:12
Michael Hoeppner
Say out loud your third idea talk talk, talk talk, talk, talk. At the end of that idea, in silence, click the Lego block in place and you keep going, sharing these thoughts one at a time with this enforced silence, this physical intervention of moving the object as a way to ensure that you actually complete your thought and don't go prattling on to the next one and the next one and the next one.

00:22:43:14 - 00:23:01:22
Michael Hoeppner
And if you have more than six thoughts to share, or eight thoughts, or however many Lego blocks you have, once you stack them, unstack them and keep going. But the beauty is, by the time you're done with 6 or 8 of those, you might realize, I'm done. I don't need to keep talking.

00:23:02:00 - 00:23:23:21
Kevin Eikenberry
100%. One of the things that you talk about a lot when we talk about how we say it, we talk about delivery, you and I, before before we went hit record and went live, we were talking about, we were talking about body language. I want to talk and we talked about a little bit here. I want to talk a little bit about the what I would call the how we say it.

00:23:23:21 - 00:23:44:17
Kevin Eikenberry
And you just you described there are five P's I love this and and two of them I haven't really thought of in quite the way the last two, as it turns out. Not in quite the way you talk about them. And since I love alliteration, and since I think this is really useful, tell us what you mean by the five P's.

00:23:44:19 - 00:24:09:23
Michael Hoeppner
Yeah, well, I created the five P's because I wanted to give people a very quick and alliterative way to think about a subject that gets dismissed way too easily and way too generically. But to be clear, folks, I did not invent the thing. The thing is, vocal variety, and humans have been using vocal variety for as long as we've been human, and we use it for really important purposes, very important that we can get into if you want to.

00:24:09:23 - 00:24:34:17
Michael Hoeppner
But to cut to your question, the five P's are pace, pitch or pause, power and placement. So pace is speed that's fast and slow. Pitch is you can think of it like the note on a musical scale. High or low pause is just like it sounds like silence that could be taken up with it. But we're not going to put an ominous silence.

00:24:34:19 - 00:25:06:04
Michael Hoeppner
Power means volume, so that's loud or quiet and then placement. That's the only one that listeners or viewers might not be instantly familiar with. Placement means where the sound amplifies in your body. So here's a fun exercise. You know, you could plug one's nose and say your voice is your body. And I notice when I plug my nose, my voice sounds different because our bodies are essentially musical instruments and how we use our body shapes how our voice sounds.

00:25:06:06 - 00:25:21:08
Michael Hoeppner
So placement means where is this sound amplifying or located in the body? Where is it placed? If you have a nasal voice at times, that's because the sound is primarily amplifying right here. A different version would be like a.

00:25:21:11 - 00:25:24:09
Kevin Eikenberry
Insert your favorite Willie Nelson lyric.

00:25:24:11 - 00:25:29:23
Michael Hoeppner
Exactly, exactly. Or you know, the cliche surfer voice is like, it's all located.

00:25:29:23 - 00:25:30:05
Kevin Eikenberry
Right.

00:25:30:05 - 00:26:02:00
Michael Hoeppner
Here. Like, yo, what's up bro? Like, I focus totally on the voicebox and the throat there. We use these five P's to vary our voices for really important reasons. And this is hoping this is my hope to give people something much more rigorous than the blanket general feedback they get, which is like have more passion or just be conversational or, you know, just be natural, or even if they get something a bit more constructive.

00:26:02:00 - 00:26:08:13
Michael Hoeppner
But it's just about like tone, you know, your tone was off and people have no idea what is tone mean? I have no idea. So this should.

00:26:08:13 - 00:26:10:17
Kevin Eikenberry
Modulate your voice. I don't even know what that means.

00:26:10:17 - 00:26:25:00
Michael Hoeppner
Right? Even that even that. These are five dynamics. And in the chapter you rightly pointed out, I actually show some research that I did with some other academics around the country examining how these P's work together to influence an audience.

00:26:25:02 - 00:26:54:11
Kevin Eikenberry
Yeah, I love that. One of the things that I, when I, when I, when you do 50 episodes ish of with guests a year, that means in my case that I'm reading the lion's share of those 50 books, a year. And I'm typically, find that there's at least one thing that I remember and there's and there's way more than one in your book that I'm confident I'm going to remember and use.

00:26:54:13 - 00:27:13:07
Kevin Eikenberry
And there's one that I found fascinating because, again, as I said, I've I've helped people with some of these kinds of things, not to the degree or to the specificity that you do, but you talked about how in that we use vocal variety even in something that we because some people will say, well, I just don't I don't know how to I don't know how to do that stuff that you're talking about.

00:27:13:07 - 00:27:31:21
Kevin Eikenberry
Michael. And yet we all do it. And the example that you gave that is like that. It's a perfect example. My phone number is five, 551232424. I did like three of those things right there. And so what everybody else on the planet.

00:27:31:23 - 00:27:33:22
Michael Hoeppner
Yeah. Yeah. That's right.

00:27:34:01 - 00:27:54:11
Kevin Eikenberry
By the way, that is not my phone number. He uses a phone number there that he doesn't even. I at least started with five, five, five. Like it's safe that no one's got it. There's not actual, but yeah, the reality is that's such a great, elegant example of the fact. Not only that, we already do it. But why it's so powerful.

00:27:54:13 - 00:28:13:22
Michael Hoeppner
Yeah. I am so glad that you that that example was meaningful to you and that you picked it up. I was so glad about that because people, they made this mistake, they think like vocal variety means I should be more energetic, but I'm I'm just not. I'm this person or I'm like, I should have more passion, but I don't feel passionate.

00:28:14:00 - 00:28:44:22
Michael Hoeppner
No vocal variety. Is this an incredibly powerful thing that we have developed to reach each other? And we use it and we use it all the time, and we use it most of all when we're not even thinking about it. Yes. Speaking phone numbers. You know what's so funny? I got a voicemail recently from some weird robot, and they gave me the number that I was supposed to call back, but they divided it into sections of two and I literally could not remember the number.

00:28:45:00 - 00:29:08:23
Michael Hoeppner
It was like (247) 963-8519. And I was hearing it and I literally could not remember a single digit. They had said, by the way, everybody out there, apologies if I just randomly guessed, you know, your Social Security, your phone number, whatever it might be. But this is a point that we use vocal variety all the time to convey information to each other.

00:29:08:23 - 00:29:32:18
Michael Hoeppner
Well, not just information to make content clear, to make emotion clear, to orient people, but then, crucially, to surprise them. So they're not listening to a constant soundscape all the time. People know how to do this. You just forget to do it when you're in like professional mode or you feel like I'm in a situation which I need to be dignified and then it all vanishes.

00:29:32:20 - 00:29:35:19
Michael Hoeppner
But I have to reclaim that, bring it back.

00:29:35:21 - 00:29:56:13
Kevin Eikenberry
So we can't finish this conversation. Even though I look at the clock, I'm like, I probably should have managed my time better and I'm not going to worry about it. We can't have this conversation about speaking in front of a group. We've talked about gestures, we've talked about vocal variety, we've talked about the filler words. Can't have this conversation and not talk about nerves.

00:29:56:15 - 00:30:12:12
Kevin Eikenberry
So we could probably have done the entire show on any of those topics, including this one, but give people something to hold on to to help them, as you call the chapter. Navigate the nerves.

00:30:12:14 - 00:30:50:10
Michael Hoeppner
Yeah, I'm going to make a real time plea to your audience. All right. Regardless of if you ever buy my book, if this is a challenge for you, you can just get the chapter on navigating nerves for free. You can go to don't say I'm a.com. That's the URL. Don't say, dot com. You can have a chapter for free, and that's a chapter we're going to keep for free because one real mission that I have with this book is that people oftentimes are in this like literally a self-loathing doom cycle about some aspect of their presenting or their speaking.

00:30:50:12 - 00:31:11:09
Michael Hoeppner
And very often they're doing something that is doomed to fail forever. And then when it keeps failing, they think something is wrong with them. So day one, hour one give up the idea anymore that you should control or combat or fight or suppress your nerves. They're going to be there. And in fact, it's good news. It means you're alive.

00:31:11:09 - 00:31:33:03
Michael Hoeppner
Your central nervous system is active. You can experience adrenaline, give up trying to fight it. It won't work. If it was going to work, it would have worked a long time ago. It is thoughts suppression. It is. Don't be nervous. Doesn't work. So instead, I want you to focus on concrete things that you can do for the most part, they're always best to be physical things.

00:31:33:05 - 00:31:58:10
Michael Hoeppner
Grounding your feet, being as tall as you are, allowing your backside ribs to expand into the chair as your lungs fill with air enunciation. These are all examples, but it depends on the person, of course, and you can find different examples in the book. But find something concrete you can focus on that is relevant to communicating, that is unmistakable and ideally is physical.

00:31:58:10 - 00:32:22:00
Michael Hoeppner
And then you hold on to that and you use that. And what happens is it slowly, slowly, slowly the nerves fade. But not because you did battle with it, not because you try to fight them, to make them go away. They fade because you have gotten distance from them and you have taken advantage of your brain's desire to uni task, and you've replaced that obsession with nerves with a productive focus.

00:32:22:00 - 00:32:26:09
Michael Hoeppner
It is not about nerves, and this is what performers are trained to do.

00:32:26:11 - 00:32:48:18
Kevin Eikenberry
It's the focus is on the audience, right? If we put our focus and the minute we start to focus on the audience, we think less about ourselves. I'm reminded of, the story Zig Ziglar used to tell that he'd had a you had a, I believe a broken ankle or something, and he still had to speak, and he went up and people said after he did his his one hour keynote or whatever, they didn't limp once.

00:32:48:23 - 00:33:04:18
Kevin Eikenberry
And as soon as the keynote was over and he started to walk off the stage, he limped again because now his focus moved back to him and off of the audience. Yeah. I hadn't thought of that in 100 years. It just popped into my head. So. So, Michael, there's a couple things I want to sort of shift gears before we finish up.

00:33:04:20 - 00:33:20:20
Kevin Eikenberry
And I want to ask you, what do you do for fun? I mean, it's clear that you enjoy your work. I love that, and I rarely have someone here who's an expert, a thought leader that doesn't enjoy their work. And there's more to our lives than that. What do you do for fun?

00:33:20:22 - 00:33:41:20
Michael Hoeppner
Yeah. This has nothing to do with communicating. It does have a lot to do with being physical, though, which is I love skiing. I grew up in Colorado. I grew up the last of many brothers and sisters. They are all really, really good skiers. And so my my fun, passion, non-work thing in life is skiing. And the best way to ski is with my kids.

00:33:41:20 - 00:33:46:05
Michael Hoeppner
So if my kids will go on the ski day too, it's it's extra fun.

00:33:46:07 - 00:33:55:22
Kevin Eikenberry
Excellent. The only thing you knew for sure I would ask you, although I'm guessing you probably figured I'd say ask you something about nervousness. What are you reading these days?

00:33:56:00 - 00:34:00:08
Michael Hoeppner
I'm reading Moby Dick.

00:34:00:10 - 00:34:02:09
Kevin Eikenberry
Any particular reason why?

00:34:02:10 - 00:34:03:07
Michael Hoeppner
Yeah, for.

00:34:03:07 - 00:34:07:23
Kevin Eikenberry
Sure it was fine. I mean, no, that wasn't meant to be a judgmental question. I'm curious.

00:34:08:05 - 00:34:26:03
Michael Hoeppner
No, I'm glad you asked a follow up. I just let it sit there for a second, because it's kind of an odd answer, given you know how old the book is, but it's a venerable one for sure. It's a good book to read. It's fantastic, by the way. No surprise there, right? I'm reading it for two reasons. One, I am a little bit alarmed at what has happened to our attention spans.

00:34:26:05 - 00:34:45:02
Michael Hoeppner
So I am in my own life trying to cultivate my own attention span and really dive into longform fiction is a good way to do that. But the other thing is that if you like language, as I do, Melville in that particular book is just an absolutely dazzling wordsmith, and you don't have to look any further than the first paragraph.

00:34:45:04 - 00:35:13:12
Michael Hoeppner
The first sentence is three words long. Call me Ishmael, and then two sentences later. His next sentence is 87 words long, and it has words in it like methodically and typos. And these really difficult, challenging words and the whole rest of the first chapter goes on like this, almost just like boxing the reader. Tremendous simplicity, tremendous complexity. And that tension just keeps you totally engaged.

00:35:13:14 - 00:35:18:19
Michael Hoeppner
So that's what I'm making my way through right now. Is Moby Dick.

00:35:18:21 - 00:35:36:15
Kevin Eikenberry
I'm glad I asked the follow up question. So. So, Michael, the question that you hoped I would ask at some point, I mean, we've talked about the book, where can people learn more about you, about the book? Where do you want to point people when you're talking with Michael about his book? Don't say, how to communicate effectively to Live a Better life.

00:35:36:17 - 00:35:39:16
Michael Hoeppner
Yeah. For the book. Sorry. Go ahead.

00:35:39:16 - 00:35:41:17
Kevin Eikenberry
Kind of know where do you wanna point people?

00:35:41:19 - 00:36:04:02
Michael Hoeppner
Yeah. For the book. It's simple. It's don't say, dot com. That's the URL. Don't say, dot com. If you want to find me or more about the company that I lead that is GK training.com g k training.com. And you can also find me just on LinkedIn. So feel free to reach out there. Michael Chad Hefner.

00:36:04:04 - 00:36:26:19
Kevin Eikenberry
That's what we hope that you will do. And now I have a question for all of you who are watching or listening, whenever that is. If you've been with me before, you know the question. It's coming. Here it is. Now what? What action are you going to take as a result of this? There I can count on one hand the number of episodes in the last year that have been as practical as this one.

00:36:26:21 - 00:36:53:11
Kevin Eikenberry
And on a topic as universally important as this one, don't leave this saying. Well, that was good. And don't leave this. Just going to buy a book. Although I hope you do that. Leave this with a clear action of what action am I going to take next with a clear intention and then taking that action because until you do that, the value that you get from this is limited.

00:36:53:13 - 00:37:10:09
Kevin Eikenberry
And so I hope that you enjoyed this. But what I hope far more is that you will leave taking action on something to help you be a better communicator, whether that's with one other person or in front of a thousand people. Michael, thanks for being here. Such a pleasure to have you.

00:37:10:11 - 00:37:14:15
Michael Hoeppner
It's my pleasure. It was really delightful conversation. So thanks.

00:37:14:17 - 00:37:31:18
Kevin Eikenberry
If you enjoyed this one. Every one. I hope you'll come back. We here every week. So wherever you're listening, make sure you subscribe. And why don't you tell somebody else as well? I mean, I can't think of an episode. Better to invite someone else to listen to than this one. And no, it doesn't have to be that you're, like, trying to hint at them that they aren't a very good communicator.

00:37:31:18 - 00:37:43:07
Kevin Eikenberry
Because all of us can get better at this. So invite someone else to listen. Make sure you're subscribed so you come back and join us next week. I hope you'll do that. And because next week we'll be back with another episode of the Remarkable Leadership Podcast.