The Remarkable Leadership Podcast

00:00:08:05 - 00:00:27:11
Kevin Eikenberry
What does it mean to be naive? And would you consider that to be a good description of yourself or not? And what does it mean to be our true self? And is that even possible in the world of business and work today? Those are the questions, the deep and important questions my guests and I are going to be talking about today.

00:00:27:13 - 00:00:50:21
Kevin Eikenberry
On the next episode of the Remarkable Leadership Podcast, where we are here helping leaders grow personally and professionally to lead more effectively and make a bigger difference for their teams, organizations and the world. If you are listening to this podcast, you could have been with us for or you in future. You can be with us for live episodes, but you have to know when they're happening and where they're happening, where they're happening.

00:00:50:21 - 00:01:17:19
Kevin Eikenberry
And on your favorite social media channels. And the when you find out by joining one of our online groups, you can join our Facebook or LinkedIn groups to find out the when's and where's the future episodes. Just go to that's easy. Remarkable podcast.com/facebook or remarkable podcast.com/linkedin to get caught up and clued in about when we'll be live and some other things that happen there as well.

00:01:18:21 - 00:01:41:06
Kevin Eikenberry
today's episode is brought to you by our remarkable masterclasses pick from one of 13 important life and leadership skills to help you become more effective, productive and confident while overcoming some of the leader's toughest challenges. Learn more and sign up at remarkable masterclass.com. And with that, now I'm going to bring in our guest and let me get him here.

00:01:41:09 - 00:02:04:00
Kevin Eikenberry
His name is Joshua Barry and he is a world class facilitator of change as an author, speaker and entrepreneur and director of iconic. Joshua has spent the last two decades evolving the what, who and why of fortune 500 companies and venture backed startups along with his team Joshua, to spark change in organizations like U.S. Bank, John Deere, Procter and Gamble.

00:02:04:01 - 00:02:26:11
Kevin Eikenberry
Gamble, Nelnet emeritus, the Omaha Public Power District, Farm Credit Services America, BlueCross BlueShield of Nebraska, and others. He is also the author of the new book Dare to Be Naive How to Find Your True Self in a Noisy World. Hence, all of the questions I share with you in the open. So Joshua, welcome. Glad to have you here.

00:02:26:13 - 00:02:32:02
Joshua Berry
Happy Monday Kevin. Excited to be with you. And it looks like a number of people who are joining us live. We got.

00:02:32:04 - 00:02:55:01
Kevin Eikenberry
The slide. So let's now that I'm not reading let me let's see what we got. We've got I'm guessing these are people that know you. We got Lincoln, Nebraska and Lincoln, Nebraska and Lincoln, Nebraska. And wow. Someone else says Lincoln, Nebraska is representing and we've got someone in Atlanta as well. I know we got lots of others folks, but thanks you all for doing that, for sharing those comments.

00:02:55:01 - 00:03:16:00
Kevin Eikenberry
So so, Josh, what I really want to do is start with that word. That's right. Well, let's do this first. First, tell us a little bit about the journey that gets you here. You know, you're a facilitator of change, right? You didn't wake up when you were ten and say, I'm going to grow up. Take your change. I'm desperate.

00:03:16:09 - 00:03:31:15
Kevin Eikenberry
you couldn't even spell facilitator when you were ten. Well, I couldn't spell facilitator when I was ten. Probably. but but seriously, I just really quickly beyond what I've shared. How do you end up at this place? Sort of. What brings you to doing this work just really quickly kind of tell.

00:03:31:16 - 00:03:53:10
Joshua Berry
You're absolutely right. The fact that you went back to childhood is a great place to start. to be a facilitator of change, you have to go through a lot of change. I lived in over 16 different houses before I was 15, and so I had a lot of change and a lot of practice through that. eventually in school, going to, Nebraska Wesleyan University here in Lincoln, Nebraska.

00:03:53:12 - 00:04:19:18
Joshua Berry
I, for international business and Spanish. That opened up a career for about ten years, doing work with talent selection and development all around the world, about 30 different countries. And that was eventually then when I went out on my own and started to work with startups and eventually co-founded iconic here in 2015. And, yeah, a lot of the work that we do is helping people, as you said, facilitate, which I love that word because it just means to make easy change.

00:04:19:20 - 00:04:32:22
Joshua Berry
Typically it's not easy, but we find that with the right approaches and good people, you're able to at least facilitate some of that change. And, as you said, we get to do that work with a lot of great organizations here and throughout the world.

00:04:32:23 - 00:04:35:02
Kevin Eikenberry
Maybe not make it easy, but easier.

00:04:35:07 - 00:04:36:08
Joshua Berry
Easier. There you go.

00:04:36:13 - 00:04:45:01
Kevin Eikenberry
I will show you this. If I can find it on my desk. Here it is. You ever seen one of these before? The easy. The famous easy, but the easy button?

00:04:45:01 - 00:04:45:18
Joshua Berry
Yeah. I've never.

00:04:45:18 - 00:04:47:22
Kevin Eikenberry
Seen one that said Faisal.

00:04:48:01 - 00:04:53:08
Joshua Berry
Bin bin. Faisal bin. Faster. So? So to car on. Let's do the first deal.

00:04:53:08 - 00:05:01:16
Kevin Eikenberry
There you go. Well yeah you're you're the Spanish guy. So like, you got that. anyway, so I think mine is actually French, but yeah.

00:05:02:05 - 00:05:03:02
Joshua Berry
it works because.

00:05:03:02 - 00:05:22:10
Kevin Eikenberry
Someone sent it to me from from Montreal. So I'm assuming it's French. so listen, the key word. Well, there's, I guess there's there's a bunch of important words in the title of the book. Dare to be Naive How to Find Your True Self in a Noisy World. But I want to start with that word naive. It's where I started in the intro.

00:05:22:18 - 00:05:42:12
Kevin Eikenberry
let's just go there like you, you spend the early part of the book talking about it, and I love it because, you propose that perhaps the definition that we would use for naive isn't necessarily the most helpful one. So can we just talk about that a little bit first?

00:05:42:14 - 00:06:07:09
Joshua Berry
Absolutely. In some of my research of the best leaders out there, what I saw was a propensity that they were using that word naive almost as a shield. Right? They would say things like this not might sound naive, but and and that got me into really digging into, well, why are we so afraid of being naive? And some big moments when I actually went back to the root of the word naive.

00:06:07:15 - 00:06:31:11
Joshua Berry
what I learned, Kevin, is that like your ancestors and mine, you're you're an icon, Barry. I'm a Barry. Maybe we have the same ancestors. I have no idea. It's possible. Quite possible. But, they actually use the word naive more in a neutral to sometimes even positive way. and back then, it meant more like innate or natural or genuine or that thing which you had from the start.

00:06:31:13 - 00:06:51:20
Joshua Berry
And so this idea of daring to be naive, and even when people were using it as a qualifier of like, oh, this might sound naive, what I learned from those people and from a lot of us is that some of these ideas that are often maybe expressed in ideals or optimism, or others actually might be coming from a more natural or innate space.

00:06:52:03 - 00:06:55:18
Joshua Berry
that we need to maybe, maybe dare to be a little bit more off in life.

00:06:55:20 - 00:07:20:04
Kevin Eikenberry
Yeah, I absolutely love that. And, you know, I, you and I have talked about before we went live that that I do get lots of books sent to me. And when I saw the word naive, like I said, okay, I know I think I'm going to like this. It's my. By the way, for those of you that are our podcast listeners or watchers and you're not necessarily readers, this is a small book.

00:07:20:06 - 00:07:42:04
Kevin Eikenberry
It's not even full size. So like, this is very, easy to get into and easy to get out of, if you will. and there's lots that you a lot you can get out of it. But I was drawn to that word naive as a starting point. I wanted it to start there. But then in the book, you talk about a spectrum, or what I might actually call it attention because there's a false.

00:07:42:06 - 00:08:03:12
Kevin Eikenberry
There's a false, dichotomy. Dichotomy is the right word. Yeah. The false dichotomy that's used between the word pragmatic and naive. And so let's talk about that for a second, because I love this idea of these tensions. a lot actually, because I think that there's lots of places where we need to look at these tensions differently. And this is one of them.

00:08:03:12 - 00:08:08:05
Kevin Eikenberry
So let's just talk about, well, can I be both pragmatic and naive? Is that even possible?

00:08:08:10 - 00:08:37:08
Joshua Berry
Yeah. And to your point being, it being a paradox or attention, it's something to manage between those two. So a useful question or tool that I give to people is it does whatever you're about to do feel reasonably and intuitively true. Right. That the reasonable side, I think, gets at that pragmatic side that when maybe overused, can come across as extremely cynical or distrusting and, that naive side again, and you mentioned it.

00:08:37:08 - 00:08:49:17
Joshua Berry
Well, like, I'm not advocating we completely throw reason out the window and become ignorant or, or willfully ignorant or anything. it's all ignorant and willful.

00:08:49:20 - 00:08:50:09
Kevin Eikenberry
Yes, it.

00:08:50:11 - 00:08:50:19
Joshua Berry
Was.

00:08:50:21 - 00:08:55:02
Kevin Eikenberry
There. You did you that was a great qualifier.

00:08:55:04 - 00:09:26:23
Joshua Berry
But I think what what what the book invites people into is not here's a bunch more of the right answers. The book just invites people into a lot of practice around what do I believe and in and how can I bring a little bit more of that intuitive sense? Because I think we've focused so much over the last couple hundred years on just building out this logical, rational brain that that, when combined with some of those evolutionary aspects that want to protect us, leads to pessimism or cynicism or protectionism or fear or anxiety or any of those things.

00:09:26:23 - 00:09:37:22
Joshua Berry
And so I think we do need to come back into a little bit better balance between those tensions if we want to shape more of the reality that that is a hopeful future that I believe is possible.

00:09:38:04 - 00:09:55:06
Kevin Eikenberry
I just want to draw the connection to everybody. If you if you watch with me live or if you're on the podcast. Last week's episode was with Lisa Trauma. who's the last two words in the title of her book, Art, Rational Leadership? And we talked a little bit about that. But the book is really fundamentally about our biases.

00:09:55:07 - 00:10:17:21
Kevin Eikenberry
Right. And and I think that there's a strong connection between that, conversation and where I think this conversation is going to go, and we'll make sure in the show notes that we connect you back to last week's episode as well. so I want to get to all of the belief stuff. Well, really, everything we're talking about is the belief stuff, I realized.

00:10:17:23 - 00:10:34:03
Kevin Eikenberry
But I really want to talk about this idea of true self, not another one of the key words in the subtitle, right is how to find your true self in a noisy world. Why is finding our true self important?

00:10:34:05 - 00:11:03:07
Joshua Berry
I mean, at the deepest level, I think that's part of our purpose and our meaning here is is truly that continued unfolding, uncovering, unlearning of of of what you're being called to do. And so, in terms of the experiences that are put out there, and a lot of the examples I use are work related, I constantly believe that the path in front of us at work is, is putting forward tests and examples and mirrors that are put up in front of you to say, is this who you are?

00:11:03:07 - 00:11:35:15
Joshua Berry
Is this what you believe? Is this the path you want to be on? Why it's more important now than ever, which is, I think, kind of part of that question is that people are more lonely and exhausted. right now, I, I saw a survey recently of those specifically focused on burnout that said, 69% of leaders say that burnout is impacting their actual ability to make decisions at work, that there's all of this stuff that that tells me that people are maybe a little bit off in terms of maybe what their true self might be or what they're destined to do.

00:11:35:15 - 00:11:59:23
Joshua Berry
And so being able to create spaces for people to be more intentional and to be able to shut out some of the noise of everything else that's going on and people telling them the way they should be and the way things have to be done, etc., to be able to start to wake up and be more conscious about what feels right for me, what is the right next thing, and just be whatever that next step is, being able to be more intentional towards it.

00:11:59:23 - 00:12:03:13
Joshua Berry
I think that's the call to to what we're being asked to do and work in life.

00:12:04:03 - 00:12:30:11
Kevin Eikenberry
and those two words come up for me often as I'm reading and as, you know, as I was preparing for a conversation of the words conscious and intentional. Yeah. And we'll get at that a little bit more second. But I, I wrote a long time ago, Joshua, that to something along these lines. I mean, I've slept since I wrote it, but I wrote something along the lines of to be a bet, to be a better leader is to become a better human, and vice versa.

00:12:30:12 - 00:12:46:22
Kevin Eikenberry
And so what you just said, everything you just said about why it's important to find our true self and why our true self is so important, is true for us as individuals. But I'd like you to like, lean into that a little bit more specifically in our role when we put our leader hat on.

00:12:47:00 - 00:13:00:12
Joshua Berry
Yeah, yeah, that there's something and I think it actually is in verse two, the higher you go up in the organization, the more you feel like you need to put on a mask, the more you feel like there is a way of being, that you're.

00:13:00:12 - 00:13:01:05
Kevin Eikenberry
Supposed to be.

00:13:01:06 - 00:13:33:02
Joshua Berry
You're supposed to be, right? You're supposed to be in these ways. I don't think it's a coincidence that last year's Merriam-Webster word of the year was authentic. And it isn't just because of AI and misinformation and everything that's out there. But I think we're truly in a crisis of like, who am I? And when we're looking to people in leadership, whether it's organizations or community or government or whatever it might be, we're looking for people to to to have the to be intentional, to be to be something that are worthy of our trust.

00:13:33:04 - 00:13:53:01
Joshua Berry
And so to your point, the idea of being able to keep coming back and being your true self even more and more as a leader, stepping into that gives permission for other people to also explore what is important for them and what their true self is. Right? The acknowledgment of not just hey, look at the ladder, I'm climbing.

00:13:53:01 - 00:14:16:17
Joshua Berry
Climbing. You should be climbing this ladder too. But even being able to look down and be like, I don't know why I'm doing this. I was told this was the right way to do things. like there's there's some of that that needs to start to happen, this awakening that needs to happen, especially in leaders, because of the asymmetrical influence they have on being able to change what's going on within organizations and how those impact employees and consumers.

00:14:16:19 - 00:14:38:01
Kevin Eikenberry
Yeah. And so, yeah, so you're talking about the if it's important for us, we can make it more safer for others to do the same because we're modeling. Yeah. But I think there's another piece that we can talk about too a little bit. And that is that when we are, we are our authentic self and we're our true self.

00:14:38:02 - 00:14:57:13
Kevin Eikenberry
When people see that clarity that comes from us as leaders, because we are we have that or are or are on the path of that. Yeah. we're far more influential as well. Like we have. We are far more likely to have folks want to choose to follow us, which is ultimately what it means to be a leader, people choosing to follow us.

00:14:57:13 - 00:15:19:11
Kevin Eikenberry
Right. And we're more likely that people will follow. And if we have that clarity, we're probably leading them towards a valuable place, all of those things. So you really leaned into the role model side of this, which is incredibly important. But anything you want to add to that sort of our ability to to actually be a more effective leader simply because we have that clarity for ourselves.

00:15:19:11 - 00:15:47:17
Joshua Berry
Well, yeah, I think in terms of the effectiveness, if we want to shift over to team members wanting to be engaged in the work that they're doing in terms of getting to the results that they need or performance in an organization, when we drop some of the false pretenses of of of what I'm trying to get you to do, or when we set aside the old ways of using more manipulation and coercion to get people to do stuff, we can have much longer, sustainable results.

00:15:47:17 - 00:16:09:03
Joshua Berry
Right? And it's because you're not so focused on I'm, I'm completely wrapped up in myself. Is this identity of of this work and what needs to get done. So I think you absolutely can help people have have more flow. In fact, you probably picked up already on the book that I'm kind of a word geek, and I love that the word influence just means in flow.

00:16:09:05 - 00:16:35:19
Joshua Berry
Yeah, it literally the etymology just means that you are helping people get to in flow. And I think as a leader, you get to set the tone of which flow you're getting people in. Is it this continual flow that's rewarding for you and and working everybody else to death in it? Is it the flow that is working from outdated ways of of work models like what is the flow that you're bringing people into, or is it a flow that brings about joy and vibrancy for the most amount of people?

00:16:35:21 - 00:16:52:04
Kevin Eikenberry
So I was just led to decide to share this with you, and I'm confident that you can speak to it, but it's not in the book. Right. So, in my newsletter last Friday, in part because I was reading this book, I decided in my Friday newsletter, by the way, you can all can sign up for Kevin.

00:16:52:04 - 00:17:04:20
Kevin Eikenberry
I'm great at com slash newsletters, but it's called Your Remarkable Day. And on Friday I, I, I wrote this. I said one of my mentors says if you want to learn something new, read old books. Now, I know Joshua, you're saying, wait a minute, my books new. You should read my new book.

00:17:04:20 - 00:17:05:11
Joshua Berry
Yeah.

00:17:05:13 - 00:17:22:00
Kevin Eikenberry
But, but, but then so I, I, I shared a quote from Emerson and I'm just going to read the quote. If you comment on it, you may already you may already know what I mean. To be yourself in a world that is constantly trying to make you something else is the greatest accomplishment. So it's really directly connected to what we're talking about here.

00:17:22:04 - 00:17:25:03
Kevin Eikenberry
You want to any comment that you want to make to that?

00:17:25:05 - 00:17:46:02
Joshua Berry
Yeah, I it goes back to what I've said about the, the noise. Right. And everything. if and if you want to shape a new reality, you got to see more clearly the reality that you are in. and so the first way to do that is, as you said, to start to be more conscious about what is it that I want to be and what are all the other influences that are around there?

00:17:46:02 - 00:17:48:23
Joshua Berry
Right. I get into the book these four questions. yeah.

00:17:48:23 - 00:17:52:00
Kevin Eikenberry
It's actually where I want to go next for me, just using that.

00:17:52:00 - 00:17:57:09
Joshua Berry
Those questions are a great, great way to be able to start to clarify where is my self versus what the world is wanting me to get into?

00:17:57:09 - 00:18:19:12
Kevin Eikenberry
Yeah, because it takes us back to what we said earlier. And that's exactly where we want to go next, which was that the foundation of all this is what do we believe, what are our beliefs. And and you talk about these four questions and that's like, so I'll just frame this up. Everybody with, this is where, where Joshua would say, and I agree with him, where our beliefs come from is through these four questions.

00:18:19:12 - 00:18:21:07
Kevin Eikenberry
So why don't you just lay those on us?

00:18:21:09 - 00:18:39:06
Joshua Berry
Yeah. Yeah. So this is this is built upon the work by Byron Katie. it's about something called the work. and I just massaged it a bit, and I've applied it more in the business setting here, but it's truly, to help us shine more light on how our beliefs impact our actions and maybe where you even have limiting beliefs.

00:18:39:06 - 00:18:58:23
Joshua Berry
And so those four questions like, let's assume we're talking about back to the leader who's not being able to show up as their true self. And and that person says, like, I can't be authentic in my role. Okay. I would apply these four questions to it in a coaching session with that person. Where did you learn that belief that you can't be authentic in your current role?

00:18:59:01 - 00:19:23:05
Joshua Berry
That's question number one. Second question is it absolutely true? Is it absolutely true? Is it verifiably, objectively true that you can't be authentic in your current role? And then the last two questions, that truly get someone into a space of reflection is what do you gain by holding that belief? I can't be authentic in this role. And the fourth question what do I lose by holding that belief?

00:19:23:05 - 00:19:40:20
Joshua Berry
I can't be authentic in this role. and even in that example, the gain or lose is always harder depending upon how the belief statement is phrased. But I think I think self-aware people can start to say, oh, I can see what I lose by not being as authentic in my role. And maybe they get some aha's there.

00:19:40:22 - 00:20:00:06
Joshua Berry
But the tricky one, as those four that I put out there is, what do I gain from this belief? I can't be as authentic in my role that there's probably something that you can really start to uncover and dig into. Maybe, maybe this individual is saying like, what I gain is, is I hold myself back. I don't have to be vulnerable in this situation.

00:20:00:06 - 00:20:05:18
Joshua Berry
Actually makes it easier, potentially, right, that I do this. And and it feels safer.

00:20:05:19 - 00:20:06:10
Kevin Eikenberry
Right.

00:20:06:12 - 00:20:20:19
Joshua Berry
None of those questions push you to say, and now what are you going to do and what's your action? It's just the very first step of this. If you're trying to reflect on what is my true self thinking and feeling there, it's it's it's orienting more honestly right to a belief that you have and that you've held up in the past.

00:20:20:21 - 00:20:43:15
Kevin Eikenberry
And I think the second question is so important, like is this objectively true? Because especially if you're a leader, who on that, on that tension of pragmatic versus naive leans more to that pragmatic side. then when you can sort of shine the rational light on the belief to say, is this really objectively true? Can you prove that that's true?

00:20:43:17 - 00:20:58:06
Kevin Eikenberry
Yeah. I think that that's that kind of a question has it will open people's eyes, minds, hearts. Because until that question is answered, you can't. The next two are even harder. I'm I that's me.

00:20:58:06 - 00:21:07:05
Joshua Berry
My take 100%. And I'm trying to recall. Did you ever read the book humankind? I don't know. Can't recall the author, who wrote that?

00:21:07:21 - 00:21:15:20
Kevin Eikenberry
we'll make sure that we put it in the show. We've had other authors, by the way, or other guests mentioned that book. We'll make sure we put that.

00:21:15:21 - 00:21:24:00
Joshua Berry
So why I pull it out is is it's a great book and it's it's hopeful history. I think it's maybe even the subtitle of that book.

00:21:24:00 - 00:21:25:11
Kevin Eikenberry
A Hopeful History of.

00:21:25:13 - 00:21:26:06
Joshua Berry
Of thank.

00:21:26:07 - 00:21:26:12
Kevin Eikenberry
You.

00:21:26:12 - 00:21:53:09
Joshua Berry
Both. yeah. but my point in bringing that book up is that it takes this long held belief by a lot of people. maybe people are innately bad, and and it uncovers and goes through rational examples time and time again during wars, during crises, during all of these sorts of things and highlights. No, actually, time and time and time and time again, people show up decent and like at the core, people are innately good.

00:21:53:11 - 00:22:11:21
Joshua Berry
And yet if you if you just held that as well, this is the commonly held belief which there's a ton of studies that he cites in there too, about most people assume other people will do wrong, but they don't assume that about themselves. Yeah, well, even if you hold that to a distance, it actually does play out that most people, most people are inherently good.

00:22:11:23 - 00:22:19:02
Joshua Berry
And acting from that isn't the right thing. So, yeah, it's a it's a good book and a fascinating, dig into that.

00:22:19:04 - 00:22:42:22
Kevin Eikenberry
So I want to tell everybody that this idea of basically asking these questions, examining our beliefs. to me, that's the one thing I will take from this book. Like, how do I do that? What are those beliefs that I hold? And we'll just take it. Since this is the Remarkable Leadership podcast, what are those beliefs that I hold as a leader, and how do they end up influencing me in my work?

00:22:43:08 - 00:23:05:19
Kevin Eikenberry
if we if we don't, we we have to be intentional to ask ourselves those questions, because otherwise they're just they're just the sound. Those beliefs are the soundtrack of what we're going to do every day. Right? And so we have to stop. We have to reflect on them. And you not only tell us to do that in the book, but at the end of every chapter, you have a process to help us do that.

00:23:05:20 - 00:23:17:12
Kevin Eikenberry
So you want to talk about that. You can talk about how to do it and unpack that and maybe just give us another one of them. Right. You just gave us one. And just let's just sort of talk through that third party a little bit.

00:23:17:12 - 00:23:36:17
Joshua Berry
Sure. You know, the the idea of applying those four questions, when you start to get used to it and, and the way that it works just to keep it up for each chapter, as you said before, it's a pretty easy read. the audiobook, finally, got put up on Audible and Spotify this weekend so you can go see it.

00:23:36:17 - 00:23:55:01
Joshua Berry
It's it's less than a four hour. Listen, and in those questions at the end of the chapter, they take all the anecdotes and stories from a particular chapter, and then they say, well, what do you actually believe here? And, and how do you do it? And the chapters cover everything from, you know, trusting people too much, right.

00:23:56:07 - 00:24:16:07
Joshua Berry
and prioritizing employee growth, maybe even over company growth and a number of things that are out there. But the whole point of the book and those things isn't to say. And now that's the right way to do it. In fact, my our PR firm kind of jokingly called me the reluctant thought leader because I said, I honestly don't want to write a book that tells anybody like, that's wrong.

00:24:16:07 - 00:24:35:05
Joshua Berry
This is the right way to do it. I just want to create a book that makes space for people to practice how to adapt more than adopt, or whatever. I think the ten Best Things of Leadership might be, and so I'll apply it here. Even with the pragmatic and the naive part, we can take either of those things and say you should be more pragmatic.

00:24:35:05 - 00:24:56:03
Joshua Berry
Okay. Where did you learn that? Is it true? What do you gain and what do you lose by holding that belief? You should be more naive. Where did you learn that? Is it true? What do you gain and what do you lose? You will always gain or lose something because beliefs are our best guess at reality. And so the whole idea is people can say, this show with Kevin and Joshua is amazing.

00:24:56:03 - 00:24:59:15
Joshua Berry
Great. Where did you learn that? Is it true? What do you gain? What do you lose?

00:24:59:17 - 00:25:03:15
Kevin Eikenberry
All three at the first? Yeah, of course, of course, of course. Right.

00:25:03:17 - 00:25:23:07
Joshua Berry
But but I'm say being able. It's a call to wake up. It's a call to wake up and to realize that in each of these situations, there's going to be gains and losses and something that I haven't hit on on other podcast yet. But, you know, maybe there's a space for it in the future is that I think we need more of this in general, civic dialog today.

00:25:23:09 - 00:25:36:13
Joshua Berry
And that is I have a view and I gain and I lose things with my view. And you have a view and you gain and lose things with your view. Can we have a dialog around some of these things versus I'm 100% right. You're 100%.

00:25:36:13 - 00:25:54:17
Kevin Eikenberry
Wrong because my narrative, my view, my belief, it is where my where my truth is, right? Like there's factual. and then there's other forms of truth that get down to the narrative. And the only way we get to something where we can come to agreement is where we can find room for both of our narratives.

00:25:54:17 - 00:25:55:09
Joshua Berry
There you go.

00:25:55:11 - 00:26:18:13
Kevin Eikenberry
Connected or that we change our narrative. Right. and, and this book, you know, people that have followed me for a long time, whether it's on this podcast or, and in fact, it's proven at the end of every episode or whether, you follow what I read, you know, achieving what I write, that you know, that I am a big believer in reflection and in self-reflection.

00:26:18:13 - 00:26:36:13
Kevin Eikenberry
And one of the things, Joshua, I love about the book is that it with those four questions, it gives us a it gives us a way for a certain search of things that we would want to reflect on, to do it right. You give us a way to do it a very powerful, useful and and yet accessible way to view it.

00:26:36:14 - 00:26:52:13
Kevin Eikenberry
Right. And, we'll make sure that we get those four questions in the show notes as well, because Lisa need something to do. No, I'm just I'm just teasing because it's really they're really useful. And if you're because some of you we know are watching this or listening to this while you're doing something else, right, and you couldn't stop, write them down.

00:26:52:13 - 00:27:13:00
Kevin Eikenberry
And you certainly can go back and do that. But we'll make sure we get those questions in the show notes as well. So Josh, before we sort of roll into the final piece of our conversation, is there anything we left out or is there anything that I didn't ask that you wish I would have?

00:27:13:02 - 00:27:36:04
Joshua Berry
You know, maybe, maybe whether it's for you or whether it's to anybody who's listening, what's coming to me is just what is the next step that you are wanting to take in life? That for some reason or another, you're pausing at and to. If there is one call to action out of this, it was, could you make space for yourself to say why I'm not doing this?

00:27:36:04 - 00:27:55:04
Joshua Berry
Because what? And take that through these four questions? because, you know, talks like this are fun. I love getting to meet great people like you, Kevin, you've been doing this for a long time, and you're a pro at it. they only make a difference to me if people are saying, Now I can start to reflect.

00:27:55:04 - 00:28:13:16
Joshua Berry
And now I take something out of this. And so I hope that somebody, can hear this and say, this thing that's keeping me from the best life that I could possibly live. Well, is there a limiting belief there that needs to be awaken and or uncovered? and I hope that this is that call to action for you if you're hearing this.

00:28:14:05 - 00:28:37:12
Kevin Eikenberry
we're talking with Joshua Berry about his new book, Dare to Be Naive How to Find Your True Self in a Noisy World. And I would say that, you know, this is at the intersection of all the conversation about biases, which I mentioned that we talked with Lisa, trauma about last week. But all of the conversations that we've had and that I've had and, and I've written about around mindset, it's all connected.

00:28:37:12 - 00:29:00:05
Kevin Eikenberry
Right. And, and and if we're willing to take the time to shed some light on it, it will help us be happier, healthier, more effective, and all of the stuff that we do in life, not just that of leading and, and I believe gets us closer to that, to that adjective in front of leadership called remarkable. So, I got a couple of other things.

00:29:00:05 - 00:29:12:05
Kevin Eikenberry
Joshua, I want us to talk about before we go, questions I like to ask everybody and and they're kind of different. So one of them is, okay, when you're not doing all this important work, what do you do for fun?

00:29:14:07 - 00:29:31:18
Joshua Berry
I read I read a lot. I love to read. I always have 7 or 8 books going on at once. so I read a lot. I play bass guitar, which I enjoy. And then we have four school age kids that are ten, 12, 14 and 16. And so right now, a lot of our fun revolves around their activities and things that they're doing.

00:29:31:20 - 00:29:48:10
Kevin Eikenberry
And some of your frustration, in some cases as well. I'm just saying mine are older than that. I can say that, and yet tremendous a tremendous time in the life. And so it's awesome that you get to spend time with them. So speaking of reading, what is something you're reading now? Like? We already talked about humankind.

00:29:48:10 - 00:29:54:21
Kevin Eikenberry
What would you add to that list that maybe you're reading? I've recently read, we don't have we don't have time for we.

00:29:54:21 - 00:30:14:05
Joshua Berry
Don't have time for all of them. author of two book indie type ones out there. I'm really enjoying out live by Peter Attia. If you haven't read that, it's, the art and science of longevity and how we can continue to increase our healthspan as well as our lifespan. So, a lot of great ideas there that I've taken away.

00:30:14:07 - 00:30:31:11
Joshua Berry
And then the second one, To Bless the Space Between Us by John O'Donohue. So on the very opposite, other extreme, it's a it's a book of blessings, from that Irish author that is, wonderful and, very contemplative.

00:30:31:13 - 00:30:50:06
Kevin Eikenberry
I love that. Thank you very much. We'll have both of those in the show notes. As I mentioned before, so, so now what's the question? The question that you most want me to ask, even though you said you're reluctant, like where where do you want to point people? If people want to learn more about you, your work through the book, where do you want to point people?

00:30:50:06 - 00:30:51:02
Kevin Eikenberry
What do you want to tell people?

00:30:51:12 - 00:31:09:14
Joshua Berry
I'm most active on LinkedIn so you can find me, follow me, connect with me on LinkedIn. obviously there's a number of people already here from LinkedIn or heard about this from that. So keep doing that, please. You can go to the website for the book Dare to Be naive.com. And that has additional information as well as a worksheet, that you can download.

00:31:09:14 - 00:31:32:04
Joshua Berry
That is a nice study guide with it. we also have a book club worksheet in there that's been getting requested more and more. And then our organizations website, iconic, eco and eco. Iconic eco. I'm sure there's other websites out there too, that are connected to it, but, and then just unplug again, as I said, the beginning, we we recorded the audio book back in October.

00:31:32:06 - 00:31:43:02
Joshua Berry
It been taking a long time to work through all of the channels. and it finally one of my kids showed me that it was up on Audible and Spotify this weekend, so I'm excited for that to be out there.

00:31:43:04 - 00:31:44:22
Kevin Eikenberry
And did you do the did you did you read it?

00:31:44:22 - 00:31:48:12
Joshua Berry
I did, I did, so if you'd like to hear about there to be naive.

00:31:48:13 - 00:31:49:03
Kevin Eikenberry
I love that.

00:31:49:07 - 00:31:50:07
Joshua Berry
Music and everything on my.

00:31:50:07 - 00:31:55:07
Kevin Eikenberry
List. And so I believe that my next one, that's what's going to happen on my oh.

00:31:55:07 - 00:31:57:02
Joshua Berry
Was so fun. You should totally do it, Kevin.

00:31:57:02 - 00:32:16:19
Kevin Eikenberry
Yeah, I've been wanting to, And and I expect that that's what's going to happen next. We've we've had a number of other people joining us as we've gone. I haven't had a chance to get to show all those comments. I appreciate all of you being here. But listen, there's there's a question that is totally related to what we've been talking about here that I ask at the end of every single episode.

00:32:16:19 - 00:32:49:23
Kevin Eikenberry
It's my favorite reflective question. It is simply this now what? Like, what are you going to do with this? It's one thing to have enjoyed this. It's another thing to have nodded your head and go, yeah, that's good. it's very different from saying, I'm going to take a bullet and I'm going to analyze it using these four questions, or I'm going to go get a copy of this book, or I'm going to go do whatever it is that was mentally highlighted or was literally written down by you during the last 34 minutes, like, what are you going to do with what you got?

00:32:49:23 - 00:33:09:17
Kevin Eikenberry
That's the key. Because until you do that, this will be nothing more than enjoyment. And while we hope you enjoyed it, there's a lot more to take from it than that. So, so, so, listen, I want to thank you, Joshua, for being here. It was super fun to get to know you a little bit and for us to share some time after having, read your book.

00:33:09:17 - 00:33:21:03
Kevin Eikenberry
And, and I'm confident that everyone that's joining us, whether they're with us now live or as it's later, whether it's later video or audio would be thanking you as well. So thank you so much for being here, Kevin.

00:33:21:03 - 00:33:28:05
Joshua Berry
This was great. You've been a great host. Thanks everybody. And for everybody who joined, we'll listen to it later. Thank you so much. I really appreciate you all.

00:33:28:07 - 00:33:50:05
Kevin Eikenberry
And with that, everybody, I hope you found this useful. If you did, tell somebody else, go make leave a comment on the, on whatever, whatever podcast channel you happen to be listening to this on. If if you're not subscribed to this podcast, do that as well. You know, all that stuff. Just make sure you come back next week for another episode of the Remarkable Leadership Podcast.

00:33:50:05 - 00:33:50:17
Kevin Eikenberry
We'll see you then.