The Remarkable Leadership Podcast

00:00:08:07 - 00:00:38:08
Kevin Eikenberry
If there is one thing that is clear in the uncertainty of business, and therefore the uncertainty for leaders in 2026, it is that clarity is critical and too often lacking, creating clarity. Specifically, an expected actions in every direction is our focus today. As important as this is, setting clear expectation, explicit expectations seems to be a skill that many leaders need to polish.

00:00:38:10 - 00:01:05:10
Kevin Eikenberry
And if that's you, you're in exactly the right place. And that's what we're talking about today. I'm glad you're here. Welcome to another episode of the Remarkable Leadership Podcast, where we are helping leaders like you grow personally and professionally to lead more effectively and make a bigger difference for their teams, organizations, and yes, the world. If you are listening to this podcast in the future, you could join us live on your favorite social media channel.

00:01:05:10 - 00:01:21:08
Kevin Eikenberry
I don't know, maybe your social favorite social channel we're not on, but we're on several. And two of them are places that you can get caught up to and know when we're doing these things to the platform for these happen, or on Facebook and LinkedIn, you can join our Facebook or LinkedIn groups to get all the inside scoop.

00:01:21:10 - 00:01:49:20
Kevin Eikenberry
Know the schedule and join us live. You ought to do that. So you get to join those groups. Go to remarkable podcast.com/linkedin or remarkable podcast.com/facebook to do exactly that. And if you like what you're hearing today and want to help in developing the leaders in your organization, let's talk reach out to info at Kevin I can.com and we'll schedule time to learn more about your needs and share how we might be able to help.

00:01:49:20 - 00:02:03:15
Kevin Eikenberry
Now that we've done the logistics and hopefully gotten you excited for this conversation, let's bring in my guest. His name is Carl. He been straight there. Is that right?

00:02:03:17 - 00:02:04:10
R. Karl Hebenstreit
That's right Kevin.

00:02:04:10 - 00:02:23:15
Kevin Eikenberry
Thank you. I slowed down and then I wanted to make sure I got it. Carl holds a PhD in organizational psychology from Alliant International University, a master's of science in human resource management from the Rutgers Graduate School of Management, and a BA in psychology, French and political science from Rutgers College. But he doesn't live on that side of the country.

00:02:23:16 - 00:02:44:21
Kevin Eikenberry
Now he lives on the other side of the country. He is the author of three books The How and Why. Taking Care of Business with Enneagram, now in its third edition, Nina and the Really, Really Tough Decision, which is available in five languages. And the book we're going to talk about today, which is Explicit Expectations The Essential Guide and Toolkit of management Fundamentals.

00:02:44:22 - 00:02:50:11
Kevin Eikenberry
That's what we're talking about today. And Carl, welcome. Thanks for being here. So glad to have you.

00:02:50:13 - 00:02:55:05
R. Karl Hebenstreit
Thank you for having me. And this is a very timely and relevant conversation.

00:02:55:07 - 00:03:10:13
Kevin Eikenberry
It certainly is. As I said in the open. Clarity is at a premium. We'll just put it that way. Let's just start there. So I'll even just ask it that way. Why did you say this is such a timely conversation from your perspective?

00:03:10:15 - 00:03:38:12
R. Karl Hebenstreit
So just this morning I was looking at a study, a research study that was conducted that shows that inclusivity used to be what people were looking for. Most in their leadership. They were looking to be something in an organization, in a setting where they would feel included and counted upon and involved and have their opinions matter. Yet because of everything that's going on in the world right now, people need a lot more clarity and direction from their leadership.

00:03:38:12 - 00:04:00:06
R. Karl Hebenstreit
And that's actually risen above being included as being the number one reason to cause engagement, to lead to engagement and satisfaction in the workplace. So I think what we're seeing is the clarity that doesn't exist in the world right now. People are looking to their local leadership in their organizations to help create some sort of direction and consistency.

00:04:00:10 - 00:04:11:03
R. Karl Hebenstreit
So they have some confidence in their leadership to be able to know that there's going to be something that's going to be solid for them, something that's going to be secure for them, that's going to lead them to feel more comfortable.

00:04:11:05 - 00:04:48:11
Kevin Eikenberry
The connection between clarity and confidence, I think, is a really asset. And, and, and like I said, in the open, I think that, when we don't have clarity, it causes all other kinds of problems. Right. As you. Exactly that. And, and I the other thing that you just said, I think is super important is that it's perhaps easy as a leader to say, if I'm in the middle of the organization and say, well, we need more clarity from the senior leadership, or if I'm a senior leader to say, well, nothing I can do like I would the geopolitical people just fix this.

00:04:48:14 - 00:05:08:12
Kevin Eikenberry
Like, could they get could they do something different? Can we get greater clarity? Whatever. And if we if we try to let go of that and, and place blame on someone else, we're missing the point. We need to look in the mirror because there's a whole lot we can be doing, even in the face of uncertainty, to bring clarity about what we can and do.

00:05:08:12 - 00:05:14:02
Kevin Eikenberry
No. So you wrote this book called Explicit Expectations.

00:05:14:04 - 00:05:14:07
R. Karl Hebenstreit
Yes.

00:05:14:08 - 00:05:36:09
Kevin Eikenberry
And and we're going to talk about some of the stuff in the book, but I'm, I really want us the big I want to talk about this book from the perspective of what's the big idea of the book like? Why, why, why is this so important that you chose to write about it?

00:05:36:11 - 00:05:54:00
R. Karl Hebenstreit
Thank you for that question, because it's I think a lot of people have expectations. We have our expectations, and they're all based on something that's fallacious. And that is it's all based on the golden rule. Because we abide by the Golden Rule. We've been taught the Golden rule is the premium rule is the one that we need to abide by.

00:05:54:01 - 00:06:21:16
R. Karl Hebenstreit
It's correct in every single situation. The golden rule is gold is expensive. It's it's important. It's what we should abide by. And it's what you should treat others the way that we want to be treated. And that presupposes that everyone has the same exact way of thinking values, ideologies, preferences, everything. So we make we have our expectations, and we believe that other people know what those expectations are because we're treating them with the golden rule.

00:06:21:22 - 00:06:26:07
R. Karl Hebenstreit
They they're gonna have the same expectations we are. And the reality is everyone's different.

00:06:26:08 - 00:06:28:12
Kevin Eikenberry
No chance. Like there's no chance that that's true.

00:06:28:18 - 00:06:40:16
R. Karl Hebenstreit
Exactly. And none of us is a mind reader, right? No one. No one can know what I don't. I can't read your mind, Kevin, to know what you're thinking and what your expectations are. Unless you are explicit about them and tell me what they are.

00:06:40:21 - 00:06:47:20
Kevin Eikenberry
I tell leaders all the time. It is not in your people's job descriptions to read your mind, except they can't have description.

00:06:47:22 - 00:07:10:09
R. Karl Hebenstreit
And even if it were, they can't write, they would all fail. They would all fail. Exactly. So making these implicit expectations that we have of ourselves and of each of our colleagues explicit is what this whole thing is about. Let them know what you expect of them so you won't be disappointed. And guess what? They also have expectations of you.

00:07:10:11 - 00:07:29:06
R. Karl Hebenstreit
So you may think you know what they expect of you. You may think that you know what your leader expects of you, and you may have expectations about your leader that may or may not be coming to fruition. And those same expectations are not being played out by what your direct reports want from you as well. So it's a two way street.

00:07:29:06 - 00:07:50:23
R. Karl Hebenstreit
It's making your expectations explicit to your colleagues and your leaders and making sure that your colleagues and team members direct reports, stakeholders, everyone that their expectations of you are explicit as well, so you know how you're going to make them happy and how you're going to work best together.

00:07:51:01 - 00:08:10:14
Kevin Eikenberry
I think that's really you just made a really important point, Karl, and that is that usually when the conversation comes up about setting clear or explicit expectations, it's about what does a leader need to do to set them and make them clear with their team members, which we're not very good at. We'll get at that in a second.

00:08:10:14 - 00:08:28:19
Kevin Eikenberry
But you're saying something bigger than that, which is completely true, which is that they go both directions. They do, and so they go horizontally, horizontally. They also go vertically, right? And like anyone who's listening, even if you're a CEO, you have a boss. It's called your board. Yeah. Right. And so.

00:08:28:19 - 00:08:30:01
R. Karl Hebenstreit
And your customers.

00:08:30:03 - 00:09:02:05
Kevin Eikenberry
And and your customers and so. Yeah. So what do you want to think. Up and down or we want to think across stakeholders customers, other departments. All of this matters. And if clarity is missing in any of them, it's a it's a pretty big fissure. Right. In terms of it pretty crack, if you will. So what are some of the from your perspective, what are some of the problems that come from, them not being clear or explicit performance.

00:09:02:07 - 00:09:30:10
R. Karl Hebenstreit
The simplest issue is performance. It's we set goals for our team members, for our organizations and our team members, and a lot of times we don't go back to change them. As the situation changes, as the environment changes, we just expect people to know what they should be changing without having a conversation around it. We may expect people to prioritize something that they don't think is a priority, so they may.

00:09:30:12 - 00:09:42:08
R. Karl Hebenstreit
Yeah, that's a goal. Great. But this other thing I'm going to work on, this other thing which may not be as high of a priority for the leader or the organization, but maybe the person thinks it is, or they like doing that more than they like doing the other thing.

00:09:42:09 - 00:09:42:17
Kevin Eikenberry
Human.

00:09:42:17 - 00:10:05:00
R. Karl Hebenstreit
Nature be harder. Exactly. So it's really having all those conversations to prevent surprises during performance review time, whether it's just, you know, a regular check in or if it's something that happens every six months or every year, we want to prevent those surprises and having explicit expectations and ongoing one on one conversations is going to prevent those surprises.

00:10:05:00 - 00:10:22:18
R. Karl Hebenstreit
And it's going to make people happier because they're going to know what's expected of them. People don't. Well, most people don't go around and say, I am. I'm going to ignore the expectations. I'm going to do something counter to the expectations. I'm going to fail on purpose because I want to. I don't want to, satisfy my my leader or my manager.

00:10:22:20 - 00:10:32:17
Kevin Eikenberry
Yeah, I always say this, but I'm sorry. I didn't mean interrupt. I always say that my my belief is that 95% of people want to do great work 95% of the time.

00:10:32:17 - 00:10:33:22
R. Karl Hebenstreit
Yeah, exactly.

00:10:34:00 - 00:10:57:15
Kevin Eikenberry
The problem is, if they if explicit expectations are required to define what great work. Exactly. Right. And that that takes us. And that's why, I, I mean, that fundamental truth is really why I was looking forward to us having this conversation now. Yeah. You mentioned the golden rule a little bit ago. But that stopped. We stopped short.

00:10:57:15 - 00:11:01:10
Kevin Eikenberry
I think of what you'd like to say about what goes beyond the.

00:11:01:10 - 00:11:02:03
R. Karl Hebenstreit
Goal, exactly.

00:11:02:03 - 00:11:04:09
Kevin Eikenberry
Well, so why don't you talk about that a little bit more?

00:11:04:11 - 00:11:24:09
R. Karl Hebenstreit
So we're all familiar with the Golden rule, and we've all been taught it. And we now realize that, hold on. People are different. They have they think differently. They work differently. They they they have different circadian rhythms. They they're productive at different times. They have different likes and dislikes. So what does that mean? What kind of rule will help us figure this out?

00:11:24:11 - 00:11:48:19
R. Karl Hebenstreit
So you go to the platinum rule instead. And the platinum rule is treat others the way that they want to be treated. Again, find out what their expectations, explicit expectations are, what their likes are, what they're hoping for, what they're aspiring to, what jobs they're aspiring to. If they're even aspiring to advance in an organization. So many times leaders make these assumptions that people want to have the same career trajectory that they've had.

00:11:48:21 - 00:12:02:11
R. Karl Hebenstreit
And in reality, the other people don't. They? They're happy. Where they are now is not a good time because of what's going on in their life or in their family. And maybe that maybe that'll be true in another five years or ten years, but not right now. But the leader doesn't know that because they haven't asked the questions.

00:12:02:11 - 00:12:21:23
R. Karl Hebenstreit
They haven't had those explicit conversations around what's going on for you, what do you aspire to, and what's the timeline? When will you be ready for that? Is now a good time? None of that happens. So really having that empathy going into the platinum rule of treat others will be that they want to be treated and find out how they want to be treated through those conversations.

00:12:22:04 - 00:12:43:04
R. Karl Hebenstreit
Ongoing, regular conversations is the answer. And then if we really want to be even more effective, integrating that knowledge, finding out that hold on, there's not just one way of thinking about something. Maybe we need to expand our own worldview, and going to a rhodium rule where we integrate this new information into our own existing worldview and expand it.

00:12:43:06 - 00:13:07:05
R. Karl Hebenstreit
And that's ultimately where we want to be. And that's really that's emotional intelligence, because the golden rule is self awareness. I know what I want right now. I'm applying it to other people, which is inappropriate in most cases. It would work if everyone were exactly the same, but everyone isn't exactly the same. So then we go to empathy, treating others the way they want to be treated, finding out the differences and and adapting.

00:13:07:07 - 00:13:25:07
R. Karl Hebenstreit
And then the third point is that integration is adapting our own behaviors and our own way of thinking and worldview into this new worldview, expanded worldview of being more inclusive. So that's that's the whole pathway to emotional intelligence building right there.

00:13:25:09 - 00:13:37:19
Kevin Eikenberry
So what I'm going to guess that the question I'm about to ask, you've been asked, in a workshop or some leader that your coaching or whatever has asked you this question.

00:13:37:19 - 00:13:38:17
R. Karl Hebenstreit
Okay, okay.

00:13:38:19 - 00:13:46:03
Kevin Eikenberry
So Carl, I'm intrigued. You've you're telling me that I need to ask my people what they expect of me?

00:13:46:05 - 00:13:47:17
R. Karl Hebenstreit
Yes, yes.

00:13:47:17 - 00:13:54:22
Kevin Eikenberry
What if what they want, I don't want to deliver. What if what they want you to know is, like, off the table?

00:13:55:03 - 00:13:56:02
R. Karl Hebenstreit
What you to know that.

00:13:56:04 - 00:13:59:07
Kevin Eikenberry
Leaders don't open that conversation if they're worried about that.

00:13:59:11 - 00:14:18:02
R. Karl Hebenstreit
So yeah they need to their advice there. That's that's that's fine because they then need to have the follow up conversation and say that's not possible or I can't do that right now or this, you know, we don't have the resources or the business situation or whatever it is, the budget or we don't. We can't do that right now.

00:14:18:02 - 00:14:43:19
R. Karl Hebenstreit
But it's good for me to know this. It's good for me to know this because I know there's there's this gap that we might miss. However, I also need to let you know that that's not going to happen for whatever reason and explain the why. Really focusing on the why? Because if the person who has the expectation that you're going to do this for them or whatever timeline that they want you to do this for them or support them in a certain way, understands that not going to happen now, but it could happen in the future.

00:14:43:21 - 00:15:03:22
R. Karl Hebenstreit
They're not going to be disappointed and say, this person isn't listening to me, or this person isn't meeting my needs because they're gonna understand the why. And the why is really critically important to really know the why of the situation. And they need to know that, that the expectation is not going to be met right now. It could be met in the future, or maybe it's never going to be met.

00:15:04:04 - 00:15:31:17
R. Karl Hebenstreit
And that person needs to know that now, because you don't want this disgruntled, disengaged person that's going to be there for a long time, if that's if this isn't the place for them, if the values aren't aligned, if what they're looking for isn't going to be able to be met in this job or this company or this department, then may need to move somewhere else where they will be engaged and motivated and satisfied, and get someone else in there that is willing to work within those parameters.

00:15:31:19 - 00:16:07:11
Kevin Eikenberry
I love that, and I think it's a really important point here too, as the leader who might be reticent to have this conversation or is worried that what they're going to get back is something that they aren't able to, which is mostly what you're saying or maybe willing to, respond to or meet. And I the only thing that I would add to what you're saying is that is, if you're that leader asking that question and you're worried about what response you're going to get is keep an open mind about it, because don't immediately say, well, that can't be done right.

00:16:07:11 - 00:16:26:15
Kevin Eikenberry
But understand, as you said, what's underneath it. Because once we understand the context, it makes all the difference. If we just start looking for yes, I can't no, I can't we will likely miss maybe a lot, but certainly at least something that we wanted would want to have in that. Yeah.

00:16:26:17 - 00:16:43:15
R. Karl Hebenstreit
That's really a great point. Especially if people are worried, if leaders are worried that the person can say, I want to raise, I want to promotion, I want to whatever. Right. And getting to the why underneath, why do you want this raise or why do you want this promotion. Maybe we're able to meet that underlying need without the raise or promotion.

00:16:43:17 - 00:16:50:04
R. Karl Hebenstreit
Maybe we can do something else and give you what you're looking for without having this traditional trajectory.

00:16:50:06 - 00:17:07:01
Kevin Eikenberry
I'm glad you brought that up, because a lot of times, leaders think that's the only thing they do want. And I can't do anything about that today, or I can't do that unilaterally. And, I tell leaders all the time, like, if you quit paying people, they're going to quit coming to work. It's not the only reason they come.

00:17:07:03 - 00:17:07:17
R. Karl Hebenstreit
Yeah.

00:17:07:19 - 00:17:28:07
Kevin Eikenberry
It's not the only reason they come exactly. You wrote this book, when we're talking, with Carl about his book Explicit Expectations. And as I read this book, it's pretty clear, at least to me. I could be wrong. But it's pretty clear to me that you're largely writing this for new leaders.

00:17:28:09 - 00:17:31:15
R. Karl Hebenstreit
And which is. Yes and.

00:17:31:17 - 00:18:06:15
Kevin Eikenberry
Yes. And and so that's where I want to go. So. Yeah. That's that's the frame of it. And yet. Yeah. I mean, like almost every leader has gaps here. Yeah. So let's, let's go to this question. Why is it that while setting mutually clear, explicit expectations is foundational to our success as a leader, why is it that many leaders are woefully ineffective at doing it?

00:18:06:17 - 00:18:26:07
R. Karl Hebenstreit
I think there are many reasons for it. Multiple reasons for it, I should say. One is we fall into the trap of the Golden rule and figure that we've hired the people there. You know, we've selected these people. So therefore they're going to be very like minded and want to have the same things that we have seen career trajectory, same motivations, same expectations.

00:18:26:07 - 00:18:51:08
R. Karl Hebenstreit
So I think that's one foundational reason. A second is we get busy, leaders get busy, they get pulled into different directions, different priorities get handed to them from above. And now they have to do this, and now they have to do that. So all they're doing is fighting fires, right? So they don't they don't make the time to create these really important one on one meetings or hold them hold these really important one on one meetings.

00:18:51:08 - 00:19:22:13
R. Karl Hebenstreit
They may have them in their calendar, but they can be deleted or moved or canceled or let's postpone it or let's reschedule it and then it never gets rescheduled. So when these checkpoints and touch points should have come into play, where these expectations become better aligned, they don't happen. And a lot of times we'll see that even though a one on one is schedule and the one on one is intended for the employees benefit, what does the employee need from the leader?

00:19:22:15 - 00:19:40:07
R. Karl Hebenstreit
That never that conversation never happens because the leader sees it as an opportunity. Oh yeah. Good. I saw that we had a one on one schedule because I wanted to give you this work to do in that work to do it, not you. Priority. So all these take precedence over the real, important, foundational, ongoing conversations that should be happening.

00:19:40:09 - 00:19:46:01
R. Karl Hebenstreit
That would make things so much smoother if they did happen.

00:19:46:02 - 00:20:08:00
Kevin Eikenberry
The one on one meeting is one of my my count 16 areas that you talk about about to either help us in setting, explicit expectations or places where we need to have them. And certainly we've now mentioned the one on one a couple of times. And I think you hit on something really important is that too often the leader thinks this meeting is for them.

00:20:08:02 - 00:20:26:14
Kevin Eikenberry
It's their meeting when it really is every it's everybody's meeting. It's, you know, if if I work for you, it's not just your meeting. It's my meeting to like. And so as a leader, we have to treat it as a meeting that belongs to both of us. And that will change anything. What is your other than. Please don't cancel them.

00:20:26:16 - 00:20:27:02
R. Karl Hebenstreit
Please.

00:20:27:02 - 00:20:28:13
Kevin Eikenberry
Don't cancel them.

00:20:28:15 - 00:20:29:12
R. Karl Hebenstreit
Yeah, yeah.

00:20:29:13 - 00:20:34:07
Kevin Eikenberry
Let me say it again. Please don't cancel them. Beyond that.

00:20:34:13 - 00:20:41:21
R. Karl Hebenstreit
What? That sends a message. That sends a message. When you cancel those meetings, it sends a very bad message. It's not important.

00:20:41:22 - 00:20:58:19
Kevin Eikenberry
I had an employee for a very long time, and, I think it would be safe to say that we had a good working relationship. I think she would say that we had a good relationship when we were together for a long time. And, while she lives not super far, super far, she really was hardly ever here.

00:20:58:22 - 00:21:23:03
Kevin Eikenberry
It was virtual even before, you know, Covid. And we at that point, she and I had a standing meeting at a certain time on a Friday, and I fell into a an unintended. Yeah. And even unaware habit of sending her a note. Hey, I need five more minutes or I'm going to be a little late, or whatever.

00:21:23:03 - 00:21:44:21
Kevin Eikenberry
And one day she said, Kevin, I need to give you some feedback. I'm like, yeah. She said, you know, you didn't used to. But now semi-regularly, you say, hey, can we push back ten minutes? Can we do this? Can we do that? I wasn't canceling, I was just delaying. And she says, I don't believe it's true, but I can promise you, it makes me feel like I'm not a priority.

00:21:44:22 - 00:21:46:03
R. Karl Hebenstreit
Yeah.

00:21:46:05 - 00:22:04:03
Kevin Eikenberry
And I can tell you that I don't think it was ever late for a meeting with her again. Right. Because your point about cancel it? Late for it? Reschedule it now doesn't mean that that can't ever happen. But the point is, I mean, it sends messages that we don't even know.

00:22:04:05 - 00:22:06:09
R. Karl Hebenstreit
Yes. Yeah. Or intent.

00:22:06:10 - 00:22:09:20
Kevin Eikenberry
He gave me such a gift that day when she gave me that feedback.

00:22:09:22 - 00:22:18:12
R. Karl Hebenstreit
And and good for her and you for having that relationship, that strong relationship where she felt comfortable giving you that feedback.

00:22:18:13 - 00:22:25:11
Kevin Eikenberry
Well, yeah. And at the moment, of course, I felt awful, like, because that wasn't my intent. I mean, she, she did assume positive intent. Right.

00:22:25:11 - 00:22:27:01
R. Karl Hebenstreit
And and the.

00:22:27:03 - 00:22:42:20
Kevin Eikenberry
And I can tell you there's a there's a remote. The reason I mentioned the remote component, there's a remote component to this because, well, it still wouldn't be a good thing to do if she was down the hall and she knew what else was going on, she would it would make more sense to her that I needed five more minutes.

00:22:42:22 - 00:22:44:15
Kevin Eikenberry
But when she can't see me.

00:22:44:17 - 00:22:46:06
R. Karl Hebenstreit
Right.

00:22:46:08 - 00:22:46:18
Kevin Eikenberry
She can't.

00:22:46:19 - 00:22:47:05
R. Karl Hebenstreit
We make up.

00:22:47:05 - 00:23:09:17
Kevin Eikenberry
Stories. We make up. So we make up stories. Even if trust is high and all the other stuff. Right. Yeah. So what's one other piece of advice you would give about once we're having the meeting and once we're having the meeting on time when I can send it like once. One piece of advice you would give to leaders about making those one on ones more effective.

00:23:09:19 - 00:23:50:12
R. Karl Hebenstreit
Reminding themselves that the meeting is a two way street and more so directed by the employee and the employees needs to be successful. So really focusing on the employees agenda, the team members agenda, rather than their own agenda, when all that is complete, at the end of the meeting, when all the challenges and issues and needs and questions are addressed that the employee has at that point, if the leader has something that they want to have of their own agenda, that to relay, that's the time to ask permission to do it and do it then, but not taking over that meeting and making it their own.

00:23:50:14 - 00:24:02:12
R. Karl Hebenstreit
Do this, do that. Here's a deadline. Here's a new thing, a new priority, a new project, a new task, whatever. Because that's that's what usually happens. And that's so enticing.

00:24:02:14 - 00:24:14:14
Kevin Eikenberry
If we as a leader go first, that's what will happen. Exactly. So we've got it. You know, my my basic approach is to talk about non work, talk about their list, talk about my list. And if we do it that.

00:24:14:17 - 00:24:15:06
R. Karl Hebenstreit
A.

00:24:15:08 - 00:24:44:19
Kevin Eikenberry
Chance of success. So there are 15 other areas in the book that you talk about. Obviously we don't have time for a little 15. Besides, everyone needs to create their own copy of explicit. Right. But but is there another is there one other one? Maybe that comes to your mind right now that you think an awful lot of leaders, maybe not, and maybe not just new leaders, a situation where more explicit, more clear expectations would really help a lot?

00:24:44:20 - 00:24:51:23
Kevin Eikenberry
Is there is there one of these areas where you think a lot of us feel?

00:24:52:01 - 00:25:25:04
R. Karl Hebenstreit
It's probably related to the one on one, but it's really the goal setting. Right. And it's it's so one on ones of course, are separate, but goal setting once a year doesn't cut it. Goal setting and directional setting once a year is great. And the reality is we have to understand that things are going to change. Things are changing so fast in the business environment and the competitive landscape that we are going to have to pivot and deal with different priorities, not just add more priorities on top of the priorities we already have put in this is now priority.

00:25:25:04 - 00:25:51:03
R. Karl Hebenstreit
This is now no longer a priority, right? And again, that needs to be made explicit. So the goal setting of the past where we set them once a year or maybe we checked in mid-year and change them slightly. That needs to happen in a much greater cadence. It means happen monthly at least. If not, and if something changes even sooner than monthly, then that needs to happen as soon as that changes.

00:25:51:08 - 00:26:12:15
R. Karl Hebenstreit
So if it has to be weekly, it has to be every two weeks, whatever it is, whenever it happens. So those expectations are clear right from the very beginning when they're known to be this is the new priority. This is the new expectation. And that goal needs to change in that person's evaluation. They can't be held responsible for goals that were set at a time when they're no longer relevant.

00:26:12:16 - 00:26:27:03
Kevin Eikenberry
100%. So now we have people here today from Iceland and also from you, Becca. Stan. So listen, we are we are everywhere today. Everybody. And guess what I love it. Having explicit expectations are.

00:26:27:05 - 00:26:27:20
R. Karl Hebenstreit
Universal.

00:26:27:20 - 00:26:43:20
Kevin Eikenberry
Important. And they're universal 100%. They're universal. So is there before we start to wrap up, is there any other is there anything that I didn't ask that you were hoping that I would or you or is there something else you would like for us to have talked about that we didn't.

00:26:43:23 - 00:27:04:03
R. Karl Hebenstreit
You know, the one thing I don't call it out specifically is a chapter or a topic area in the book, but it's more at the very beginning when I talk about the seven seas of explicit expectations, for leaders. And it's we talked about it a little bit without putting it into a category. But those seven seas are definitely around.

00:27:04:08 - 00:27:26:00
R. Karl Hebenstreit
We talked about the clarity part. That's one of the scenes creating that clarity. And I think we talked about confidence. And confidence and clarity are related, as is consistency. Being very consistent in our behaviors in our actions, in our or in the way that we speak. And just so that people can know what to expect from us, especially when there's so much that we don't know what to expect from the world right now.

00:27:26:02 - 00:27:52:09
R. Karl Hebenstreit
So I think that consistency is really important. Communication, of course, always linked in with that too. That Venn diagram is like everything is is linked, everything is overlapping, collaboration, creating a collaborative environment. I think that when people are getting what they need from their leader and they feel that confidence in them and supported by them, that they're going to feel much more able to collaborate and bring themselves and be included in that.

00:27:52:15 - 00:28:02:01
Kevin Eikenberry
And even know what collaboration looks like here, what my expectations are about collaboration and master. Yeah. Yes for sure.

00:28:02:03 - 00:28:27:17
R. Karl Hebenstreit
Yeah. And compassion and coaching, those are also really, really important. And knowing that leadership is not just about coaching, right. It's situational. Leadership requires leaders to coach, but it also have many other styles need to be taken as well. So figuring out what's going on in the situation and acting accordingly, not just using their preferred style or one style with everyone because everyone's different.

00:28:27:19 - 00:28:41:03
R. Karl Hebenstreit
So going back to the Golden Rule and the Platinum rule, find out what people need, where they are in the employee life cycle and what's going on for them, and meet them where they are.

00:28:41:05 - 00:28:55:00
Kevin Eikenberry
Setting explicit expectations. So before we finish, Carl, I have a couple other quick things for you. I'm going to shift gears before we say, okay. I want to know what you do for fun.

00:28:55:02 - 00:29:21:04
R. Karl Hebenstreit
Oh, what I do for fun. So I sing in the Palm Springs Gay Men's Chorus. That's always fun. I love to travel. And now I have married to travel with. Another passion of mine, of course, is talking about explosive expectations and helping people understand the difference between the Golden rule and the platinum rule and the rhodium rules, and just increasing emotional intelligence, because I do have a personal mission of making the world more emotionally intelligent and empathetic.

00:29:21:05 - 00:29:36:15
R. Karl Hebenstreit
So I'm doing that on cruise ships now. So I love speaking on cruise ships about these different topics. So these are it's, it's fun. It's integrating, my life with, with fun and business and what I'm passionate.

00:29:36:15 - 00:29:47:04
Kevin Eikenberry
About coming to a cruise near you. So, Carl, what are you reading these days when you're not cruising and writing and and speaking? What are your what are you reading?

00:29:47:06 - 00:30:08:11
R. Karl Hebenstreit
So I'm not a big avid book book book reader. What I do, like I was talking earlier, I keep track of new studies that are coming up. Like what? What's the research saying? What are the topics that are the hot topics, and how do we apply our current knowledge and even evolve our current knowledge to fit what's needed, needed in the world today?

00:30:08:12 - 00:30:27:13
R. Karl Hebenstreit
So just like that study that I talked about earlier today that I found out about, seeing that it wasn't just about inclusivity being important for engagement and retention, it's also that confidence in their leadership and needing that clarity from their leadership. So all sorts of studies that come out every single day and see different studies and see how they relate.

00:30:27:15 - 00:30:37:20
R. Karl Hebenstreit
If you, if you link in with me on LinkedIn, I post those, I, whatever I see that's relevant. I definitely, share that and post it that way.

00:30:38:02 - 00:30:42:11
Kevin Eikenberry
Which leads me, it's almost like, you know what I'm going to say next, Carl? Like, I.

00:30:42:11 - 00:30:44:09
R. Karl Hebenstreit
Can't read your mind. I still can't read your mind.

00:30:44:11 - 00:30:55:07
Kevin Eikenberry
How can people connect with you? Where do you want to point people? If they want to learn more about you, connect with you, talk to you, hire you, like where do you want to point people?

00:30:55:12 - 00:31:16:06
R. Karl Hebenstreit
All right. So so LinkedIn is we just talked about LinkedIn. And of course you can obviously the explicit expectations book is available on Amazon. And also through Ingram Spark. You can get links to those on my website which is per form and function.com, which is a play on words, a form and function, but it's per form and function.

00:31:16:08 - 00:31:35:12
R. Karl Hebenstreit
We talked about LinkedIn and that's just my last name are Carl. Heavens. Right. And Carl's with a K. I don't know if you're just listening. You could have to, probably going to perform and function is going to be easier easiest that because all the links are there and yeah, you can always send me an email to Carl with the k at perform and function.com.

00:31:35:18 - 00:31:57:16
Kevin Eikenberry
Perfect. And of course always if you're looking at where you're watching the podcast, you'll have the spelling of his name. Or you can always get show notes or all of the links to all the things we've talked about today will all be there. And again, perform and function.com. Now, Carl, I want to thank you for being here, but before you and I say goodbye, I want to say ask something.

00:31:57:16 - 00:32:18:06
Kevin Eikenberry
I'm done asking questions of you. You can take a deep breath. But I have a question for the group, for all of you who are listening whenever you're watching or listening. And that is now what? What idea did you get today that you're going to act on? Because unless you act on, it doesn't matter. It's one thing to say, hey, man, I agree we ought to have more explicit expectations.

00:32:18:07 - 00:32:49:15
Kevin Eikenberry
It's another thing to take action so that yours are and again, not just with your team, with your boss, with your peers, with the other departments in your organization, with your customers, whomever it is, any any business relationship where there's tension, conflict, frustration, rework, we can go right down the list. Those are places where very likely there's at least some mismatch of expectations.

00:32:49:15 - 00:33:03:11
Kevin Eikenberry
And so my hope is that you take from this conversation today something that you will act on to help you be a more effective leader, better, more effective communicator, and to create something we all need more of, which is clarity. So, Carl, think.

00:33:03:12 - 00:33:04:20
R. Karl Hebenstreit
I want to change the world.

00:33:04:22 - 00:33:08:13
Kevin Eikenberry
Exactly 100%. Carl, thanks for being here. It's such a pleasure to have you, sir.

00:33:08:15 - 00:33:10:17
R. Karl Hebenstreit
Thank you Kevin, thank you for the platform.

00:33:10:19 - 00:33:32:00
Kevin Eikenberry
Everybody. If you enjoyed this, make sure you hit the subscribe button, like wherever this happened to show up for you. Don't miss another episode, hit the subscribe button and if you if you were listening to this and you thought, hey, I know someone that needs to hear this. Not like because they are poor at giving expectations necessarily. Don't be that guy.

00:33:32:01 - 00:33:50:10
Kevin Eikenberry
But seriously, if there's someone that you, think could really benefit from this show, then by all means invite them to join us as well. Because whether it's you or them and you, once you're subscribed, you'll know that next week there'll be another episode of the Remarkable Leadership Podcast. We'll see you on that.