The Remarkable Leadership Podcast

00:00:08:07 - 00:00:30:18
Kevin Eikenberry
Leadership in some ways hasn't changed ever. But context and expectations and the world in general has changed a lot. And so, you know, you know that that's why you're here and you want to get better. You want to make sense of the world. That's likely why you're here. You're listening. You're watching because you want to be a more effective leader.

00:00:30:20 - 00:00:54:23
Kevin Eikenberry
That's why this is created for you. And today, we're going to talk about the modern art or excuse me, the art of modern leadership. Welcome to another episode of the Remarkable Leadership podcast, where we are helping leaders grow personally and professionally. To lead more effectively and make a bigger difference for their teams, organizations and the world. If you're listening to this podcast, you could be with us in the future.

00:00:54:23 - 00:01:20:06
Kevin Eikenberry
Live like some people are right now. And to find out about how to do that and join a future live stream, you can join one of our social media groups which will give you all that information, give you some other inside scoops as well. You can do that on Facebook or LinkedIn to join us, Just go to remarkable podcast e-commerce, Facebook or remarkable podcast dot com slash LinkedIn.

00:01:20:08 - 00:01:40:00
Kevin Eikenberry
And if you do that, then you'll have the chance to find out when these are happening in the future and choose to join us then. Today's episode is brought to you by our remarkable Masterclasses pick from 13 important life and leadership skills to help you become a more effective, productive and confident leader while overcoming some of your toughest challenges.

00:01:40:05 - 00:02:05:01
Kevin Eikenberry
You can learn more and sign up at Remarkable Masterclass dot com and that's my cue to bring in our guest. And here she is, her smiling face. At 7:30 a.m. for her in Australia, her name is Kirstin Ferguson. Let me introduce her to you now and then we will dive in. She is a globally recognized leadership expert and one of the top 50 management thinkers in the world.

00:02:05:02 - 00:02:31:11
Kevin Eikenberry
Her career spans an impressive range of roles, from spending 15 years as a board chair and company director, including a significant appointment by the Australian Prime Minister as Acting chair of the Australian Broadcasting Corporation. Her executive experience includes being the CEO of a global consulting firm and a senior role in a corporate law firm. And she started her career as an officer in the Royal Australian Air Force.

00:02:31:13 - 00:02:53:17
Kevin Eikenberry
Kirsten, I believe you're the first person I've had on on the show who was in the Royal Australian Air Force in 2013. She was awarded as a member of the Royal Order of Australia, recognizing her significant contributions to business and gender equality. She holds a Ph.D. in leadership and culture and is an adjunct professor at the CU U t School of Business with honors degrees in law and history.

00:02:53:19 - 00:03:11:05
Kevin Eikenberry
She's smart, she's accomplished, and her latest book is Right Here Head and Heart The Art of Modern Leadership. It's been acclaimed globally and won many awards, and that's why she's here. And that's why I'm excited to have her join us. Kirsten, welcome.

00:03:11:07 - 00:03:14:09
Kirsten Ferguson
Kevin, what an introduction. Thank you so very much.

00:03:14:10 - 00:03:41:06
Kevin Eikenberry
Well, I called your mom. Listen, I'm so glad that you're here. And and obviously, when when I share a little bit about your background, it probably leaves people wondering with lots of sort of open loops in their mind about what might be true about you. I don't really want you to go back into that as much as answer this question, sort of what sort of led you to this point?

00:03:41:11 - 00:03:57:01
Kevin Eikenberry
Like, you didn't wake up when you were ten and say, I think I'm going to be a leadership expert, write books about leadership, and yet here you are. So tell us just a little bit about about what gets you to this place, a little bit about the journey from that perspective.

00:03:57:03 - 00:04:21:18
Kirsten Ferguson
That's a really interesting question. Look, at any point in my life, I don't think it would be one that my ten year old self would have thought was particularly interesting. But it's funny. I feel like I've come full circle. So you mentioned my Air Force career. I was 1917 when I went to our academy. Similar to your Air Force Academy, and I'd come straight from a private girls school, so it was quite a culture shock.

00:04:21:23 - 00:04:25:05
Kevin Eikenberry
I listen that word. A culture shock?

00:04:25:10 - 00:04:53:12
Kirsten Ferguson
Yeah, exactly. But I did my first university degree there, and I end of studying history, which for anyone out there, you know, isn't the path to career glory. But it was particularly interesting and I did an honors year and a research thesis in leadership. Now, I didn't know then that I was going to be continuing to do that 30 years later, but obviously I had an interest in it from way back when.

00:04:53:14 - 00:05:15:07
Kirsten Ferguson
I think I've always been someone that says yes to opportunities, and so I've never had a linear career or even linear goals. I, you know, reinvent myself all the time based on what I'm passionate about and what I want to be doing. And as you mentioned in your intro, for more than a decade, I've been a professional company director sitting on boards.

00:05:15:08 - 00:05:24:04
Kirsten Ferguson
Then I started writing a book or two and now into my third. And I thought, okay, well, that's the next phase for me, and I'm loving it.

00:05:24:06 - 00:05:39:02
Kevin Eikenberry
So, okay, so the title of the podcast at the end of the live stream and the subtitle of the book is The Art of Modern Leadership. So we should probably start there. What do you mean? Ms.. Historian, what do you mean by modern leadership?

00:05:39:04 - 00:05:47:01
Kirsten Ferguson
Well, I can see you've got the book there, so you would have seen the first chapter. I couldn't resist a little bit of history looking at how we got definitely there.

00:05:47:02 - 00:05:48:13
Kevin Eikenberry
You've got a whole chapter on here.

00:05:48:14 - 00:06:15:10
Kirsten Ferguson
Yeah, well, why it is that, you know, we've had this great man theory from the 18th century that's told us that leaders have to be all knowing. And, you know, the people at the top of the organizational chart, whereas modern leaders are around this every day. I truly believe that every single one of us is a leader, whether in our homes or in our community or in our roles, whether or not we're formal leaders and all of us have the ability to lead with our head and their heart.

00:06:15:10 - 00:06:40:00
Kirsten Ferguson
And I really believe that leadership is simply a series of moments and that every moment is an opportunity to lead a positive legacy and to lead with impact. And that doesn't matter what kind of formal position you're in. And all of us can think of leaders around us who don't have those formal titles but who leave positive influences on us every day.

00:06:40:02 - 00:07:01:11
Kevin Eikenberry
I often say leadership is a verb, not a noun. It's things that we do, not a title that we hold. You said something earlier as you with your history hat on, about sort of the great man theory of leadership. And and, and while I think that generally speaking, we have passed we've passed that chasm for pretty much everyone.

00:07:01:11 - 00:07:33:18
Kevin Eikenberry
But there's something in what you said that I think still leaders today at all levels struggle with, which is I'm supposed to have the answers. I'm supposed to know all the stuff. Like, I got promoted because I was good at it and now I feel like I don't have all the answers. And it leads to all sorts of issues and at least some counterproductive behaviors, but not necessarily with not necessarily with bad intent, but often perceived by their team with as massively bad intent.

00:07:33:20 - 00:07:34:00
Kevin Eikenberry
Right.

00:07:34:00 - 00:07:35:13
Kirsten Ferguson
Yeah.

00:07:35:15 - 00:07:37:04
Kevin Eikenberry
I'm not about that at all.

00:07:37:06 - 00:08:01:22
Kirsten Ferguson
Yeah. I mean, it has lifted the great man theory wall. You know, it in of itself has fortunately disappeared over the centuries. The legacy it's left is still very much with us and even if you think about the people we learn about in school, you know, the kind of leaders that we learn about, they're always the titans of industrial, the presidents or the kings and the queens of the explorers.

00:08:02:00 - 00:08:24:15
Kirsten Ferguson
You know, those individuals that stand out at the top of the tree because of their formal authority and control and command. And that's just not the kind of leader that we have around us anymore. And as you said, one of the other legacies of it is this idea that leaders are infallible, that we somehow know what we're doing.

00:08:24:15 - 00:08:30:04
Kirsten Ferguson
And every leader will tell you that is far from the case, but that any.

00:08:30:04 - 00:08:34:21
Kevin Eikenberry
Leader that has any amount of self-awareness is actually right.

00:08:34:23 - 00:08:58:18
Kirsten Ferguson
But what it leads to is, you know, this idea of needing to be the smartest person in the room and that robs the people you're leading of the opportunities to learn for themselves. It means as a leader, you're not using questions to really enhance the ability for people to make their own decisions. There's just so many things that go wrong, but it's still probably the most prevalent form of leadership we have.

00:08:58:18 - 00:09:08:22
Kirsten Ferguson
And so we've still got a lot of work to do around undoing and rethinking what it means to be a leader and rethinking how we define who our leaders are.

00:09:09:00 - 00:09:38:07
Kevin Eikenberry
And so what you've done with this book is create a simple but not simplistic way of thinking about it, head and heart. And so I want to dive into all of it a little bit. But but first of all, when you say leading with our head, we've really sort of been talking about that a little bit, but say a little bit more when what's the what's the the the good side and the dark side of.

00:09:38:12 - 00:09:39:17
Kevin Eikenberry
Yeah.

00:09:39:19 - 00:10:05:08
Kirsten Ferguson
Well, first of all, I mean, it's obviously a metaphor and it is just an easy way, a simple way, as you said, of really capturing that idea because I think we all understand what that means. Leading with our heads is all the things that we're technically brilliant at. It's actually where we're most comfortable because it's tangible, measurable. You can put it in a policy, you can give a KPI on it.

00:10:05:08 - 00:10:32:12
Kirsten Ferguson
It's where we like to sit and that's what we've been rewarded for at school generally through promotions. And you know, it's just something that where we live. And you mentioned before, often leaders have been promoted on their ability to be technically brilliant or leaders in their industry, but that doesn't mean they're particularly effective leaders. And I will talk about that because that's what this ad of modern leadership is, balancing it with the heart.

00:10:32:14 - 00:10:38:09
Kirsten Ferguson
But the hits covers for attributes. And did you want me to just talk about what those are? Well.

00:10:38:11 - 00:10:43:16
Kevin Eikenberry
Shockingly, I have them to put down below you, as you say, That's the.

00:10:43:18 - 00:10:45:01
Kirsten Ferguson
Plan that Kevin.

00:10:45:05 - 00:10:53:15
Kevin Eikenberry
Had based afterwards. You were with me earlier when I was multitasking and typing them in. So, yes, that's what I was. When you were not having my full attention.

00:10:53:17 - 00:11:09:11
Kirsten Ferguson
And I know that we're going to talk about where people can go and test this for themselves. And we might have a look at yours. But just for anyone who's listening that wants to go to head heart leader dot com and then I'll explain what you can do there. But the first attribute of leaving with the head is curiosity.

00:11:09:11 - 00:11:33:03
Kirsten Ferguson
And it's not just being curious for something, it's truly being curious for anything and being willing to fill gaps in your knowledge and just accepting that you don't know everything. That's a big challenge. As we talked about before. The second is wisdom, and this is all around decision making, and that's being able to assess what's known and unknown, where risk and reward search for data and evidence.

00:11:33:04 - 00:11:38:04
Kirsten Ferguson
This is my worst thing to activate, Kevin, I can admit.

00:11:38:06 - 00:11:48:21
Kevin Eikenberry
So you go through the other two that I want to come back and ask you a question about wisdom, but to make it easier for everyone following along so far, the fact that we had based we've talked about curiosity and wisdom.

00:11:48:23 - 00:12:12:15
Kirsten Ferguson
Number three is perspective. And that's going to be the most important of the eight. And that's all about reading the room. And it's not just noticing what's going on in the room, but noticing who's missing from the room as well. And the fourth is capability. And that's all about having a growth mindset and not just being capable of whatever it is you do, but believe in your capable as well.

00:12:12:16 - 00:12:23:12
Kirsten Ferguson
And capable leaders also build our leaders behind them. You build a whole family tree of leaders. So therefore, head based, most people are pretty comfortable in this.

00:12:23:14 - 00:12:42:20
Kevin Eikenberry
But I have a couple of questions about that because even as you described them just now, there was there was an emotional component to them. Right. And we're going to get to the heart based piece in a second. But the way you described the example you gave for perspective was about reading the room, who's in the room, who's not in the room.

00:12:42:20 - 00:12:48:15
Kevin Eikenberry
So it was more than just observational action.

00:12:48:17 - 00:13:12:14
Kirsten Ferguson
Right. So in in my research, 20,000 people of 19,000 people or so, I've done it since January. Perspective relates most highly of correlates, most highly with empathy. All of these are not so binary as to be just I mean, remembering. It's a metaphor. So of course there it's a spectrum. You need everything. But we had to make a neat metaphor.

00:13:12:19 - 00:13:22:12
Kirsten Ferguson
And so that's now we've sort of divided a lot. But you're absolutely right. Curiosity and humility. The two that really balance with each other as well.

00:13:22:12 - 00:13:24:06
Kevin Eikenberry
And it to those other.

00:13:24:06 - 00:13:26:12
Kirsten Ferguson
Three, I don't want to know spoilers.

00:13:26:16 - 00:13:38:12
Kevin Eikenberry
I'm just trying to help. I'm just trying to help people who are, you know, doing listening while they're on the treadmill. Right. I have to. I recognize that now, if you're listening while you're on the treadmill or whatever else, you're multiple.

00:13:38:13 - 00:13:40:09
Kirsten Ferguson
I'm impressed. If you are.

00:13:40:11 - 00:13:58:01
Kevin Eikenberry
You should stop doing that and just listen. But then you should also just make sure you go to get a copy of Head and Heart by Kirsten Ferguson. So I've been telling myself all day, make sure I don't mispronounce your first name because I know it's been mispronounced a million times in your life with the R and with the R in the eye at the beginning being true.

00:13:58:01 - 00:14:00:03
Kirsten Ferguson
This is definitely not Christian, but it's also I.

00:14:00:03 - 00:14:02:14
Kevin Eikenberry
Know and I've been working hard.

00:14:02:16 - 00:14:14:04
Kirsten Ferguson
Americans that you I get a very different accent on my first name from you guys so we're very blunt. We just call it's just Kirsten whereas I get a kiss with an American undergraduate.

00:14:14:04 - 00:14:17:15
Kevin Eikenberry
Kirsten I'm just trying to make sure I don't try to and I.

00:14:17:17 - 00:14:20:04
Kirsten Ferguson
Haven't done that. You have not done that.

00:14:20:07 - 00:14:34:09
Kevin Eikenberry
So maybe that means that I have at least a little of this heart based stuff. So let's talk about the for heart based attributes. So thinking about the balancing out of the Yeah, of the head side. So what are these and.

00:14:34:11 - 00:14:34:15
Kirsten Ferguson
This.

00:14:34:19 - 00:14:36:22
Kevin Eikenberry
What do you mean by these? And then let's talk about the fourth. Yeah.

00:14:37:03 - 00:14:57:07
Kirsten Ferguson
And they are just as important as the head base, but they're much harder to see and feel and quantify and measure. But it's all about our emotions and how we view and are viewed by the world. The first is humility. And this means we're basically willing to seek out the views of others. We understand things are beyond our control.

00:14:57:07 - 00:15:25:03
Kirsten Ferguson
We're open, grateful for new ideas. So it's all about intellectual humility, self-awareness, which is really understanding the impact that we're having on others. Third is courage, and that's the courage to speak up for what we believe in, even in the face of pressure from others not to do so. And then finally, empathy, which is all about putting ourselves in the shoes of people with very different lived experiences to our own.

00:15:25:05 - 00:15:49:15
Kirsten Ferguson
So in a nutshell, they're the four and all eight are important. We have all eight. It's not a matter of people not having these attributes, but I do believe that when we talk about the heart based attributes, some of them haven't been encouraged to be used at work. So some people might think that empathy, for example, doesn't have a place putting together budgets and spreadsheets, and you leave that at home.

00:15:49:15 - 00:15:57:00
Kirsten Ferguson
Whereas in fact, all eight of these attributes combine to be what it means to be a modern leader.

00:15:57:02 - 00:16:30:10
Kevin Eikenberry
So I'm curious because because I've written a lot and thought about a lot about the empathy component in the time during and then since the pandemic. And so one of my observations so I want to share this and you tell me what you think and maybe what your research says about it. One of my observations is that one of the one of the many good things that came from the pandemic, of which there are many as awful as it was, and I don't know and don't anyone misunderstand what I'm saying here.

00:16:30:10 - 00:16:31:12
Kirsten Ferguson
I understand.

00:16:31:14 - 00:16:51:19
Kevin Eikenberry
But the one of the great things I think came from it is that many leaders suddenly realized that they needed to be empathetic. And I think whether they came to a cognitive realization or they just leaned into it as a human. But I think it happened. And one of the things I said was we got better at it for a while.

00:16:51:21 - 00:17:04:18
Kevin Eikenberry
Let's hope we don't lose it. So, I mean, that's sort of a societal comment or, you know, a global comment, not an individual leader comment. What are your thoughts about that? And maybe what is your research told you about that point?

00:17:04:20 - 00:17:27:10
Kirsten Ferguson
Yeah, look, the pandemic was interesting because there were leaders who emerged from that you would never previously have thought were going to be brilliant in such an event. And that's because they're okay with uncertainty and they could lead with empathy. There were other leaders who clearly had relied on their position and their authority and their command and control who failed dismally and.

00:17:27:10 - 00:17:32:03
Kevin Eikenberry
Are still trying to bring people, everyone, exactly the old way. Right.

00:17:32:07 - 00:17:53:14
Kirsten Ferguson
I mean, it's sad that you need such an extreme situation for people to realize that empathy could perhaps know, play a part in being a good leader. But the reality is, yeah, there was some uncomfortable situations that leaders sort of confronted with the point that actually I have to check in on my people and check that they're okay and are they safe and well.

00:17:53:14 - 00:18:15:03
Kirsten Ferguson
Now that's what we would hope is an everyday occurrence for a modern leader and whether you're in a pandemic or not. But I do think and we spoke about I've sat on boards, I've chaired our nominations committees and remuneration committees hiring CEOs. We are certainly looking for leaders now who can do both, who can lead with the head in their heart.

00:18:15:03 - 00:18:36:02
Kirsten Ferguson
It is no longer sufficient to simply be technically or an industry leader. You must be able to lead with both your head and your heart, because otherwise every reputational crisis you ever see unfold, every scandal that emerges generally happens from leaders who can't get both right.

00:18:36:04 - 00:19:04:21
Kevin Eikenberry
So you mentioned it earlier that you have this assessment. And and I took the assessment today in preparation for our conversation, and you had a chance to look at it very briefly. And so I'm going to put it up on the screen for everyone to see. And I just got you comment on it and share and then maybe continue this conversation with mine on the screen.

00:19:04:21 - 00:19:11:10
Kevin Eikenberry
I know for all of you that are listening to this that you can't see it. I'm aware of this.

00:19:11:12 - 00:19:12:01
Kirsten Ferguson
I will.

00:19:12:06 - 00:19:31:19
Kevin Eikenberry
What Kirsten will will say a little bit about it. So here's the result. I'll let Kirsten let you talk. I'm going to put the I'm going to put the website for this up here on the bottom. And again, if you're if you're listening, it's you can take this for yourself at head heart leader dot com.

00:19:31:19 - 00:19:55:12
Kirsten Ferguson
So that's great and it's completely free. It'll take you maybe 5 minutes at most and you'll get this personalized report. Now Kevin has over excelled in every one of the eight attributes. No not at all. Surprise Kevin but what it's showing is you'll see a what do you call that? A smirk a second place I think is a name and a dark star.

00:19:55:12 - 00:20:19:16
Kirsten Ferguson
And you are the dark star and the light shading and the there are the average scores of events, thousand leaders I used with the university to create the scale. And so what we can see there is that the points of Kevin Star exceeding that shading on everything but self-awareness, you're right on the highest average on average they Kevin for self-awareness.

00:20:19:18 - 00:20:39:00
Kirsten Ferguson
But what it's showing is that if you scroll down a little bit, it'll tell us what your top eight are. And I think I saw really it your highest attribute is curiosity, which is not at all surprising when I think about the line of work that you are in. But what I'm really interested to see is perspective is number two.

00:20:39:01 - 00:21:03:22
Kirsten Ferguson
So I mentioned perspective briefly about being able to read the right in the research, which now, as I said, is tens of thousands of pieces of data that we've been able to look at. Perspective correlates the most highly with being a modern head heart leader. And that means that if you score high in perspective, you are most likely to have scored highly in everything else, which is exactly what you've done.

00:21:03:22 - 00:21:14:10
Kirsten Ferguson
Kevin And it's so important because what it shows is that you are reading the room and of course it could be a literal room, but more likely to be.

00:21:14:12 - 00:21:16:04
Kevin Eikenberry
Offered a virtual.

00:21:16:06 - 00:21:35:19
Kirsten Ferguson
You know, or it's more likely to again be a metaphor for your team or your organization or your industry, whatever it is that you're working in and you're weighing up all those signals in the environment and the context that you're leading in to make sure that you can take the best possible path. And you've seen a few steps ahead as well.

00:21:35:21 - 00:21:59:19
Kirsten Ferguson
And all of that is incredibly important for us to disseminate that information that's coming through. But as I said, you're also noticing who's missing from the room. And if you've got people in the room but they're not speaking up, you'll noticing that as well. So it's just an incredibly important skill for modern leaders to have. And I don't think it's one that's necessarily always been value.

00:21:59:21 - 00:22:21:15
Kirsten Ferguson
I think we've had leaders who've relied, as we've spoken earlier about, on their position and their authority, and you're either in the room or you're not in, you know, listen up and this is what we're doing. Yeah, that's not what a modern leader is all about. They're really trying to use those signals to adjust leadership style to be the most effective they can be.

00:22:21:19 - 00:22:28:10
Kirsten Ferguson
So it's a great report, Kevin, that anyone can go and get their own personalized report. And I'd love to hear how you go.

00:22:28:12 - 00:23:03:02
Kevin Eikenberry
Head heart leader dot com. I said earlier when we were going through them that I wanted to talk a little bit more about wisdom because I think that we've moved from an information age to a wisdom age and that while I'm not by any means am I disputing your your research? I'm not saying that at all. I do think that wisdom, though, is a really important piece, because we are we are we are inundated.

00:23:03:04 - 00:23:25:16
Kevin Eikenberry
We are deluged. You can we are diluted by all of the information available to us. And so wisdom and discernment, I think, is so very important. And so what else would you say about that One specific likely. Yeah, that would help anyone who's here think about what they might need to do differently.

00:23:25:18 - 00:23:48:15
Kirsten Ferguson
And we're not disagreeing at all. I mean, it made the top eight. I started with 54. So wisdom is definitely important. My challenge is it's my least effective. And perhaps I'll start with why I know I'm terrible at wisdom and it might resonate with others and it'll help explain why it's so important. So I'm really good at making decisions.

00:23:48:15 - 00:24:10:15
Kirsten Ferguson
I can make decisions very quickly and you know, I have no challenge around that. But about 80% work out, 20% I think. I probably should have thought that through a little bit better. Probably should have got a bit more information, a bit more data, wait up risk and reward, all of that sort of thing. And luckily they're generally never too significant.

00:24:10:15 - 00:24:49:07
Kirsten Ferguson
But I think everyone would understand what I mean about that. My husband, on the other hand, his scale he scores is number one for wisdom. So we're obviously a good partnership. But wisdom is all about assessing what's known and unknown, looking for that data and evidence and using reason and logic. And I think at the moment when we've got so much disinformation around that ability to use critical thinking and those skills to really be making the best decisions we can on information that's going to meet the needs of the situation or the context that we find ourselves in is incredibly important.

00:24:49:11 - 00:25:27:00
Kevin Eikenberry
I think that word context is so important because again, we may have a lots of logic. To me, wisdom means more Then and again, I don't think we're disagreeing. Wisdom is more than just the logic and more than just the rational. Right. And so even though it's one of the head based attributes, yeah, that the piece that is often missing is that is that you being able to decide without complete information or being able to decide in that in those moments of uncertainty and not being able to rely on a best practice because there's no such thing as a best practice for going someplace we've never been.

00:25:27:02 - 00:25:53:18
Kirsten Ferguson
And the pandemic was another fabulous example of that. We had very little information at the beginning, and yet we were having a making incredibly significant decisions in the face of no information. And I think some leaders did that very well. Other leaders really struggled really, you know, could not deal with the fact they weren't able to prepare a position paper and put all of the data and evidence together.

00:25:53:20 - 00:26:03:15
Kevin Eikenberry
Yeah. So we've got we had a comment that came in and said the the biggest concern for any organization or community or I would say or leader should be when their most passionate people become quiet and useful.

00:26:03:15 - 00:26:18:10
Kirsten Ferguson
And that's a great comment and anyone who reads the room well will notice that. And that's why it's linked to empathy. If you're not reading the room, you don't even notice who's quiet. And that's the challenge for modern leaders.

00:26:18:12 - 00:26:45:04
Kevin Eikenberry
So we're going to talk about modern leadership. We've we've we've we've hopped around this topic a bit, but the idea of all of the people might not actually be in the actual room. And some of the people on my team, I don't see hardly ever once a year maybe. So what would you add based on your research and based on this work of head and heart leadership about doing it at a distance?

00:26:45:04 - 00:26:48:02
Kevin Eikenberry
Anything you want to specifically in the conversation.

00:26:48:04 - 00:27:12:15
Kirsten Ferguson
I spent the last sort of third of the book is all about how we lead in a remote workplace, and to me it is no different. So I, you know, it's I'm like you myself. I don't see my team face to face at all yet. We've still got a culture as a team. We're still curious. I'm still working with them on making great decisions and reading the room, even though I'm not physically seeing them.

00:27:12:16 - 00:27:34:13
Kirsten Ferguson
I think the heart vice attributes of having humility and self-awareness and courage and all of that still applies as leaders who aren't seeing physically the people we're leaving. We obviously need to make a lot more effort to find those moments to check in, and you need to consciously make time for that to happen. But you should be doing that anyway.

00:27:34:13 - 00:27:55:03
Kirsten Ferguson
So, I mean, I struggle even the big multinationals, for example, they will have CEOs and leaders who didn't see everyone in their organization of tens of thousands of people, therefore different. I mean, it might not even be in a different country. It could just be on a different floor in the building. It's still not seeing the role.

00:27:55:09 - 00:28:01:22
Kevin Eikenberry
And if you were if you've ever worked in that sort of situation, you know that every floor is almost like a different country, like it is.

00:28:01:23 - 00:28:22:18
Kirsten Ferguson
Right? Exactly. And then you ask any person who's had a toxic boss going into the office is a really challenging issue. So it's not as though there's a magic panacea if we're all physically together. So I don't see that thing. A modern leader has any physical versus hybrid differentiation at all.

00:28:22:20 - 00:28:41:21
Kevin Eikenberry
So in our book, The Long Distance Leader, which I'm working on the second edition of at this very night, we said rule number one is think leadership first, location second is really very much in alignment with what you're saying. There are differences, but they're nuanced differences. It's a small percentage of the total right?

00:28:41:23 - 00:28:55:22
Kirsten Ferguson
So hundred percent. And all these watercooler moments, it is a small percentage of the workforce that actually catches up with their boss at the WaterCooler or, you know, say it's just not how life is.

00:28:56:00 - 00:29:22:19
Kevin Eikenberry
And that's why on our our Slack channels include the watercooler channel that is not a lot. We are watercooler channel which today included people showing pictures of their Christmas trees, as it turns out. So a couple of other things before we finish up. Sort of shifting gears, we've talked a lot about your work and your research and it's clear that you're passionate about it.

00:29:22:21 - 00:29:29:14
Kevin Eikenberry
And yet I'm curious, what do you do outside of all of that? What for fun?

00:29:29:16 - 00:29:54:16
Kirsten Ferguson
Well, yeah, that's a good question because I'm now working on my next book as well. But I live on I live on the beach. I live in Australia, as you can probably tell in Queensland, on the Sunshine Coast, just south of the Barrier Reef. And I love living on the beach. So I'm down there all of the time and yeah, I've got a dog, it keeps me occupied and my husband and yeah, I've got a wonderful life.

00:29:54:18 - 00:30:01:04
Kevin Eikenberry
So know that everybody, she talked about the dog before, the husband just saying, listen, my husband.

00:30:01:04 - 00:30:04:18
Kirsten Ferguson
Often mentions that happens. Yeah.

00:30:04:20 - 00:30:07:17
Kevin Eikenberry
Well maybe that's feedback.

00:30:07:19 - 00:30:16:21
Kirsten Ferguson
Yeah, exactly. You can just see the head of my dog there Hughie. he's asleep. Yeah, that's.

00:30:16:23 - 00:30:18:12
Kevin Eikenberry
That's what it was. But now I can see.

00:30:18:16 - 00:30:19:20
Kirsten Ferguson
So he is.

00:30:19:20 - 00:30:25:21
Kevin Eikenberry
The only question I knew I told you I was going to ask you is this one. And that is So what are you reading.

00:30:25:23 - 00:30:42:10
Kirsten Ferguson
Yeah, I'm currently reading Amy Edmonton's new book. Right Kind of Wrong. I met Amy last month in London at the Think has 50 gala and I think she's fabulous. I loved the fearless organization and I'm now loving right kind of wrong.

00:30:42:12 - 00:31:03:05
Kevin Eikenberry
It is on my stack. So doing this show obviously I'm reading books three this week for this podcast, but that is on my list to read. I have the copy and the time is hopefully coming soon where I can do that as well. So now the question you you've really wanted me to ask from the very beginning, Where can we learn more about you?

00:31:03:07 - 00:31:06:03
Kevin Eikenberry
Where can we get your book? Where do you want to point us?

00:31:06:05 - 00:31:17:10
Kirsten Ferguson
Well, you can visit my website, which is Kirsten Ferguson dot com. And as you heard, and that's the spelling, I'm not even going to say the wrong spelling, although that I'm confused everyone it's on the I didn't actually.

00:31:17:10 - 00:31:20:04
Kevin Eikenberry
Say it either I just into that it is.

00:31:20:06 - 00:31:21:16
Kirsten Ferguson
My.

00:31:21:18 - 00:31:23:02
Kevin Eikenberry
Dot com.

00:31:23:04 - 00:31:44:21
Kirsten Ferguson
That's it k iris t i n r and yeah. Go there or you can go to head hat later dot com. Pick up a copy of Hid Hat The Art of Modern Leadership on Amazon and everywhere. It's all over the world. And I love hearing from people that listen to podcasts and listen. So events like this get in touch.

00:31:44:23 - 00:32:06:02
Kevin Eikenberry
All right. So I want to thank you, Kirsten. But before we finish, I've got a question I ask all of you every single time we gather. If you've been here before, you know what it is. And the question is now what? What are you going to do as a result of this? Hopefully, one of the things you'll do is, of course, get a copy of the book, but go take the assessment.

00:32:06:04 - 00:32:29:23
Kevin Eikenberry
Go go to Head Heart leader AECOM and take the assessment. Guys, courage to do that. But beyond that, there are all a number of things that we talked about over the last 30 minutes or so that the value that you will get will be from thinking that through. What action will I take as a result of this, not just sort of, hey, they were fun and it was interesting, but what am I going to do?

00:32:30:00 - 00:32:52:17
Kevin Eikenberry
That is what will make the difference for you and for ultimately for your team. So I thank you, Kirsten, for being here. It was such, such a pleasure. I've been looking forward to our conversation and and it did not disappoint. And so for all of you who are listening or watching, I hope that you come back again for another episode.

00:32:52:17 - 00:33:12:06
Kevin Eikenberry
If it's on the podcast that you're listening, you know how to do this. Like give us a recommended version, give us a referral, tell somebody else to come join us, maybe go back in the archive. But don't worry about that. No guilt. Just go forward because every week we'll be back and I hope that you'll be back with us next week for another episode of The Remarkable Leadership Podcast.

00:33:12:11 - 00:33:13:16
Kevin Eikenberry
Thanks, everyone.

00:33:13:18 - 00:33:14:06
Kirsten Ferguson
Thank you.