The Remarkable Leadership Podcast

00:00:08:07 - 00:00:31:13
Kevin Eikenberry
There are many lists of skills and talents leaders need. That's not hard to understand since all of us have watched leaders of all stripes succeed and fail. Few of those lists, though, have been created in a disciplined, scientific manner. Today, we're going to get to see a list of leadership talents that has been developed in that way. If you are serious about your development as a leader, this is an important conversation.

00:00:31:15 - 00:00:54:13
Kevin Eikenberry
Welcome to another episode of the Remarkable Leadership Podcast, where we are helping leaders grow personally and professionally to lead more effectively and make a bigger, positive difference for their teams, organizations and the world. If you are listening to this podcast, you could be could have been with us live and so you could be with us live in the future to find out when we're doing that and to sort of stay connected to all things related to this podcast.

00:00:54:15 - 00:01:22:08
Kevin Eikenberry
You can connect with us by joining at Remarkable Podcast, dot coms Facebook, or remarkable podcast dot coms linked in. I hope you'll do those things. And today's episode is brought to you by my upcoming book, the second edition of The Long Distance Leader Revised Rules for Remarkable Remote and Hybrid Leadership. If you lead a team that is distributed in any way, this book will give you new skills, insights, and the confidence to lead more effectively in the new world of work.

00:01:22:13 - 00:01:43:19
Kevin Eikenberry
You can learn more and preorder your copy at remarkable podcast.com/l d l. And today we have to guess I'm going to bring them in right now. And then I'm going to introduce them properly. And then we will get started. it's not all that frequently that we have two guests, so I'm glad to have them both with us today.

00:01:43:21 - 00:02:10:11
Kevin Eikenberry
our guests today are Barry Kanchi and Sarah Dalton. Barry is the founder and president of Kanshi Associates. He is an expert in psychometric talent assessments, leadership research and development, team building, and succession planning. He consults with company boards, CEOs and leadership teams of leading organizations across the globe. He researches leadership effectiveness and decision making heuristics from his home outside of Boulder, Colorado.

00:02:10:13 - 00:02:38:08
Kevin Eikenberry
Sarah is based in Denver. She is a partner at Caci associates. She is uniquely positioned to provide leaders and teams with the tools to evaluate their effectiveness and develop their leadership strengths. Sarah completed her master's degree in industrial and organizational psychology from Colorado State University, and they are the authors together of the new book, Not Yet Out. As of This moment The Five Talents That Really Matter How Great Leaders Drive, Extraordinary performance.

00:02:38:13 - 00:03:03:17
Kevin Eikenberry
Welcome both of you to the show. Love to have you. Oh, thanks. Yeah. There she is. All right. You were all covered up, so I couldn't see that you were. You weren't there. But sorry about that, Sarah. glad to have you both here. I have a variety of questions for you. And as I was preparing for this conversation, I figured out that there's probably at least three different episodes that we could have here.

00:03:03:19 - 00:03:24:13
Kevin Eikenberry
We're only going to have one. So there's only so much that we can accomplish in the time we have. But I really want to start with, with why the book very. You mentioned early a couple things about why this book from your perspective and your career, but tell us a little bit about why this book, why you wrote it, and where that leaves us today.

00:03:24:15 - 00:03:58:12
Barry Conchie
I think it started with being pretty dispirited by the quality of research that went into leadership, talent and there are so many people in leadership positions who shouldn't be the and we became very concerned about that. And my business was set up to try to correct that problem. So we looked at characteristics that defined high performing leadership. and we built an assessment that enabled us to pretty accurately predict that.

00:03:58:14 - 00:04:07:23
Barry Conchie
And we're at the point now where we've passed 50,000 in our database. In fact, when the book was written, we were at 58,000. We're now over 60,000.

00:04:08:01 - 00:04:13:14
Kevin Eikenberry
Well, I'm glad it didn't stay 58 then, because I always said that earlier and I had been wrong.

00:04:13:15 - 00:04:35:17
Barry Conchie
Well, the book is about the 58,000. I don't think we're going to change anything because we've added a few more thousand since then, but because we've learned so much through that kind of analysis, we got so much data. we had a story to tell. So the book tells that story, but it but it mainly answers three key questions.

00:04:35:17 - 00:05:02:23
Barry Conchie
And the first first one is as you think about leadership and you think how we select leaders, there's a lot of bad practice and relatively little good practice. So the first part of the book analyzes, the second part of the book talks about the 510 or so when you think about high performing leaders and you look at the, traits, dispositions, characteristics, these five talents are the ones that capture the best description of those.

00:05:02:23 - 00:05:22:19
Barry Conchie
So we wanted to talk a lot about those. But then in the last part of the book, it's mainly saying, how do you improve from where you're at? So given given we don't have great practice given people are really clear about what they're looking for in selecting leaders after we help them. And that last part of the book really goes into quite a bit of detail about that.

00:05:22:19 - 00:05:36:07
Barry Conchie
And indeed, it presents a whole series of excellent interview questions that people can ask that might help a little bit. So we wanted to make sure the book addressed those three things.

00:05:36:09 - 00:05:49:11
Kevin Eikenberry
And so as I said a minute ago, there are three different episodes that we could have here. And we're going to try and do a little of all of that. Sarah, I'm curious, how did how did it come to be that the two of you are collaborating both in the work and in the book?

00:05:49:13 - 00:06:14:15
Sarah Dalton
Oh, so Barry was a client of mine at the last company that I worked for, and it was very quickly my favorite project to work on, and I wouldn't let anyone touch it without my permission. he just a very he was a very easy person for me to work with. And I really appreciated the kind of depth of his thinking and what he's trying to do.

00:06:14:16 - 00:06:29:06
Sarah Dalton
But when I when it came time to leave that company, I had asked him to help me find another job and he said, why? I have one and over my dead body would I let you go to to another company? So I've been at country for for about eight years now.

00:06:29:08 - 00:06:35:10
Kevin Eikenberry
There you go. That's a pretty good deal. Hey, could you help me find a job? Hey, I've already got one for you. That's.

00:06:35:12 - 00:07:01:14
Sarah Dalton
I've already got one. I. You know, I'm probably a great example of some of what this book is talking about, where you get a talented individual who might not have everything you think you need on paper. Right? I didn't come from an obvious industry background or an obvious connection to what we now do in the business, but I've certainly learned a lot, and I think Barry saw something in me that that he could develop.

00:07:01:14 - 00:07:09:23
Sarah Dalton
So it's, it's a it's an interesting story to tell. I probably fit a lot of what we're trying to accomplish here.

00:07:10:00 - 00:07:34:16
Kevin Eikenberry
Well, I love that. And so, Barry, you spent a lot of time or the two of you spent a lot of time in the book talking about the assessment, and and I don't want to go deeply into that specifically, but what I am curious, there are some things that you talk about in the book that are, that you've learned about leadership that I think you're going to surprise some people.

00:07:34:16 - 00:07:46:15
Kevin Eikenberry
So. Well, each of you, why don't you each pick one interesting thing that you think that you've learned from the the assessment work that people might find useful, maybe even surprising. Sarah, you wanna go first?

00:07:46:17 - 00:08:25:22
Sarah Dalton
I can go first. And I might point it doesn't need to point to a specific chapter, but I'll mention it because there are there are 18 what we would call surprising insights from the database that we've built for some of those up to with, with female and women leaders in companies. And one of the surprising things that we found, I actually don't think it's that surprising, but the data supports it is that when you look at the overall scores of women who get selected in the top jobs in companies, they tend to be measurably stronger than men.

00:08:26:00 - 00:08:49:06
Sarah Dalton
Right now overall. But if we just compare men and women in our assessment, the scores are about even. We don't see any real, measurable differences in talent between men and women. But of those who are actually selected in to top jobs, there's a higher bar that women need to pass in order to be taken seriously for those roles.

00:08:49:07 - 00:08:58:02
Kevin Eikenberry
All sorts of possible implications to that. Barry, what's one of the stat, one of those 18 that you would want to highlight?

00:08:58:04 - 00:09:23:05
Barry Conchie
Well, on the same point, the women that are selected for top leadership positions that are overwhelmingly so, having broken through the glass ceiling, they plaster over pretty quickly and very few of the women who get through. So it actually turns out the men that's, are a little better at selecting female leaders and female leaders. now, there are exceptions, clearly.

00:09:23:07 - 00:09:32:11
Barry Conchie
you know, we don't want to cast everybody in the same way. Right? But that's a very interesting finding the many will think of as being counterintuitive.

00:09:32:13 - 00:09:32:23
Kevin Eikenberry
Excuse me.

00:09:32:23 - 00:09:42:15
Barry Conchie
I hope female leaders who ascend to the top positions would reach down and pull up behind them, but they don't.

00:09:42:16 - 00:09:59:02
Kevin Eikenberry
So there are some things that that you talk about in the book. I could highlight some, but I'd rather have you talk to them, that that you think that we sort of collectively, in society or in business are getting wrong about leadership? Very. What's one of the things that we're getting wrong?

00:09:59:04 - 00:10:15:03
Barry Conchie
We think everybody with the aspiration for leadership should be given a chance. And the data is very clear. Not everybody can be a leader. and not everybody in the current leadership positions should actually be that.

00:10:15:05 - 00:10:23:15
Kevin Eikenberry
That one probably doesn't surprise everybody who's watching and listening probably doesn't surprise everybody.

00:10:23:17 - 00:10:48:05
Barry Conchie
I think it's right. I think it's I think it's good to encourage people that you should encourage people according to the traits, dispositions and characteristics. too many people don't possess what it takes to succeed at the highest levels of leadership. And yet many organizations are structured in a way that basically says, if you want more money and more prestige, you've got to become a higher level leader.

00:10:48:06 - 00:11:17:16
Barry Conchie
And therefore they climb a ladder. And it's it's actually quite ridiculous. It's no surprise to us that many incompetent people often occupy leadership positions who shouldn't. And I mean, it might sound very dispiriting, but we want to stop this. There are jobs that fit people where they could be phenomenally successful, but they're not leadership jobs. And we should we should stop telling lies to people by saying that everybody could climb the ladder.

00:11:17:16 - 00:11:20:08
Barry Conchie
If you try hard enough.

00:11:20:10 - 00:11:42:20
Kevin Eikenberry
So the core of the book, the title, the book has this word talent in it. And often when people talk about leadership and talk about skills, they talk about competencies. you guys talk about talents and we'll get to what the five talents are. But I think it's important that they're clear from your perspective what you mean by talent.

00:11:42:21 - 00:11:48:15
Kevin Eikenberry
So I'm going to call it Capital T's talent. what do you mean by that, Sarah, can you tell us?

00:11:48:17 - 00:12:22:05
Sarah Dalton
Absolutely. You know, typically when we say that a person is really talented, we could be talking about anything, right? It could be the way that they show up. It could be house commands. They are how they support their team. The term is really crazy. But in general, when we're talking about talent. These are innate, enduring characteristics, that are just naturally presented to people are day in and day out, and we measure them as really narrowly defined constructs and patterns of thinking and people.

00:12:22:07 - 00:12:47:14
Sarah Dalton
So an example of a talent that you might measure is something as simple as disciplined and detail orientated, where you get people who think in more linear and rigid way about exactly how things should happen, but who are very organized. Right. It's an example of a talent that we can measure. And when you find really strong evidence, those things are difficult to shut.

00:12:47:16 - 00:13:04:20
Kevin Eikenberry
Absolutely. we're having a little bit of, feedback is very I think it might be new. So I'm going to ask each of you to just mute when you're not talking. I just tested me. it wasn't me. I don't really like to have to do that, so. Hey, you're on mute, but we just seem to need to do that just to make sure that we're clear for everybody.

00:13:04:20 - 00:13:24:07
Kevin Eikenberry
I want to make sure everybody gets, the core of what you all are talking about. So, so very, I want us to talk about each of the five talents just a little, but to do that first, can you just tell people what the five are? Just sort of give us the bullet points first if you would, sir.

00:13:24:09 - 00:14:00:11
Barry Conchie
Yeah. The five talents, setting direction, harnessing energy, exerting influence, building connectivity and controlling traffic. And these are the five broad leadership placeholders that capture the essence of what it is the most leaders do in most positions. And most organizations. And we describe each in, pretty, pretty clear detail, right. You know, what other people can can understand the essence of what it means.

00:14:00:11 - 00:14:32:10
Barry Conchie
So if you look at something like setting direction, without doubt, that's where we measure the leader's innate talents, for example, in establishing goals and you know how you mobilize people towards achieving those goals, but it also includes, the way people think about how do I even identify those goals? What should we go for? So it's one thing to have a goal and then, you know, mobilize people to get to.

00:14:32:12 - 00:14:59:09
Barry Conchie
It's another thing to define the right goals. And, you know, when you look at the way that leaders think, we look very carefully at strategic processing. That's one of the sub areas in the talent of setting direction. And we also talk about the value proposition and how leaders need to make work meaningful. and value proposition is really, really important to many, many people.

00:14:59:11 - 00:15:19:09
Barry Conchie
You know, there's a reason why people are lining up to go and join Philip Morris, for example, to manufacture cigarets that potentially kill people. you know, some people will do it because they live close by, but most people won't. So most people want to do meaningful work. And whether the work is meaningful is how a leader positions that.

00:15:19:10 - 00:15:27:22
Barry Conchie
So one of the so barriers within setting direction is creating that sense of value and meaning through the work that people do.

00:15:28:00 - 00:15:52:22
Kevin Eikenberry
Helping people see the connection and find that connection and then build that connection. so, Sarah, of the five and when we talk about direction and energy and influence, those all kind of make sense, I think. I mean, obviously we can dive into all of them a good bit. But Sarah, I'm curious, the last one that Barry mentioned is an interesting one that I think is of the five, the least obvious from the initial words, right?

00:15:52:22 - 00:16:12:12
Kevin Eikenberry
At least to Kevin, which is controlling traffic. I don't think you're talking about bringing out the sticks and doing that. Like so when you say controlling traffic, I didn't have any of those. Red. Yeah. So I would have brought those with me today. And for those of you that are listening, you're missing the joke. I realize it's a it's a you have to be watching joke.

00:16:12:14 - 00:16:17:02
Kevin Eikenberry
but, Sarah, when you guys. Seriously, when you guys talk about controlling traffic, what do you mean?

00:16:17:04 - 00:16:44:19
Sarah Dalton
You know, there's a lot that's been written about the the connection between strategy and execution. So execution is where we talk about what controlling traffic looks like. So direction setting, it's about what Barry said, how we establish goals and priorities and think about the value that we're trying to create in the future. Right. But you've got to have a way of creating the right processes and guardrails around how work happens.

00:16:44:21 - 00:17:06:02
Sarah Dalton
And that's where we get into controlling traffic. And there there are two characteristics that we do look at. One is around structure and process. So the need to create organization and and, and and a way of navigating all the chaos within your organization. Right. So how do you put the right guardrails, how do you put the right processes in place.

00:17:06:02 - 00:17:43:04
Sarah Dalton
So that work happens in more predictable ways? But the other characteristic that we talk about is the need for managing all the pace and complexity of work, because as discipline and and process oriented as I think you need to be, you've also got to be willing to change when circumstances require it. You've got to have a level of flexible in how you manage people and resources so that when plans change, when surprises occur, you've either already anticipated and planned for it or you've got a way of maneuvering around it without losing a lot of momentum.

00:17:43:06 - 00:17:56:19
Sarah Dalton
Right? So controlling traffic, I mean, that the, the, the flags aren't that too far off from what we're talking about in terms of how you guide people to what it is you're ultimately trying to do.

00:17:56:21 - 00:18:31:18
Kevin Eikenberry
So of the other three, Mary and we don't really have time to unpack all five. But of the other three that remain energy connectivity and, influence, did you use them in one word? Which of the three do you think, is most misunderstood? Like you've worked with thousands of leaders and worked with many organizations? as you share these findings with them, which of these other three do you think is maybe mis understood most often?

00:18:31:20 - 00:19:01:15
Barry Conchie
Well, the, the answer that's quite complex. So I'm going to try to just distill it into a few sentences. It's exerting influence, and I want to make a distinction between what people typically think influences and how we measure it. And predicting top performing leadership people typically think influences getting people on board. In other words, it's, it's a form of cheerleading.

00:19:01:17 - 00:19:27:12
Barry Conchie
so if I can if I can sell a story and people believe in it and they agree with me, then, you know, we've we've met, demand in terms of influencing others, that bar is way too low. The high bar is changing people's minds. And that starts by recognizing that some people have got a culture perspective. Now you need to encourage that to bring it about.

00:19:27:12 - 00:19:51:11
Barry Conchie
That's the first thing that people miss. you know, when you're developing ideas and plans, you should welcome dissent and disagreement. Too many leaders don't understand that they tried to stamp it out. so when someone does dissent and someone says, I don't agree, I think this is the wrong way to go, then the characteristics of successful, we just don't accept that.

00:19:51:13 - 00:20:20:13
Barry Conchie
And they begin the work of changing people's minds. And there are three sub elements that help them do that, that we've narrowed down and described in the book. And the first one is, you know, the most successful leaders in changing people's minds are the ones who are continually advocating for change. They're continually talking about change. They're continually identifying the elements in their organization that they think change needs to occur.

00:20:20:15 - 00:20:45:15
Barry Conchie
Yeah. The second thing is, they press their case in a pretty assertive way. So this isn't a group of, college professors, it sitting around the staff room debating issues. It's an argument. So when you've got disagreement, you have to accept, don't give it. And, you know, we find too few leaders willing to go there. And they look for alternatives.

00:20:45:15 - 00:21:10:08
Barry Conchie
They look for compromise. No, it's an argument. The right answer isn't the midpoint between two extremes. The right answer could be one extreme, but our leaders know that and they assert it and it gets attention. Obviously, there are other elements in the profile that, predict sensitivity towards others. So it's not browbeating and it's not intimidation. It's an argument.

00:21:10:10 - 00:21:38:13
Barry Conchie
And then the third element is, just an enormous amount of patience in working issues through with those who disagree. So we don't say, hey, Kevin, you're wrong. And we're doing this. You're either on board or you're off. you know, it's a disaster. we might say, said you, Kevin, I don't have time to debate this with you now, but I'm going to go back to you, and I'm going to spend an inordinate amount of time answering your questions.

00:21:38:15 - 00:22:11:23
Barry Conchie
I'm going to, you know, really use my persuasive powers, because actually, I can't afford to not to be able. So, you know, it's the balance between those three things. And, you know, too many leaders are concerned about, breaking relationships due to disagreement. And therefore, they look for every opportunity not to bring that disagreement into the meeting. And, you know, the best leaders that we see when we do the research, they bring those issues to the meeting.

00:22:12:01 - 00:22:20:20
Barry Conchie
They have the arguments. they don't all reach agreement, but there's a lot of work done after the fact to get people back on board.

00:22:20:22 - 00:22:43:08
Kevin Eikenberry
You know, and if you're if you're the if you're the constant advocate for change and are looking for change, and if you are, willing to open up the dissent and the disagreement, as you said, and then you're willing to be patient if you put those things together, you're willing to acknowledge where other people are at the starting point, you got a much better chance of ultimately getting to what you're talking about, before we're done.

00:22:43:08 - 00:23:01:10
Kevin Eikenberry
So we are talking with the authors of The Five Talents. How that, excuse me, the five talents that really matter, how great leaders drive. Extraordinary performance. Here we go. one of the things that I was thinking about, and you heard me in the, in the open talk about our, our new book, The Long Distance Leader, the second edition of our book.

00:23:01:11 - 00:23:21:21
Kevin Eikenberry
And, and obviously, Barry, you've been to both of you been at this a long time, Sarah. Eight years. That qualifies in this case is a long time. and I'm curious. and so, Sarah, I'll let you take this one. I'm curious. I mean, the world of work is clearly different than it was five years ago, right?

00:23:21:23 - 00:23:40:02
Kevin Eikenberry
Pre pandemic, pre lockdowns, all of those sorts of things. I'm curious how, how your research connects to and helps us think about leading when we're not in physical proximity.

00:23:40:04 - 00:24:15:16
Sarah Dalton
you know, I think we're still learning about all the ways that work might change. I don't think we've got enough evidence yet to say, we're measuring these talents right now, but. But are there others that we should be measuring? I don't think we're quite there yet. But for what we do know, I think current circumstances place even more emphasis on the need for getting selection decisions right and getting truly talented people into the right roles, because there's so much writing right now about CEO manager burnout.

00:24:15:18 - 00:24:31:22
Sarah Dalton
there is an uptick in leader resignations, and I can't help but think that some of that is due to people not having the talents to to keep pushing through. They might not have been the best fit for their roles in the first place. And some of that vulnerability has been exposed.

00:24:32:02 - 00:24:37:22
Kevin Eikenberry
Yeah, right. They were kind of figuring it out ish, but now everything's changed and it's and they're like, I just I.

00:24:37:23 - 00:24:39:04
Sarah Dalton
Can't keep pace with it.

00:24:39:10 - 00:25:05:12
Kevin Eikenberry
Yeah. Yeah I think that's, that's that would that would align with sort of my thinking, my observation as well. the last part of the book is about changing the way we select. And you teased it very at the beginning that you the, in the back part of the book. You give us some questions for that. We ought to be using one of the one interesting things that you say in the book is that, we interview poorly, in part because we if we don't use the same questions, then how do we really know what we've done?

00:25:05:12 - 00:25:22:01
Kevin Eikenberry
We interview one person to the next one rephrasing, of course. and, and, and since we want everyone who's listening to eventually go get their own copy of the book, what I really want to do is just have each of you share. What's one of the questions we ought to be asking? It's going to have each of you do that.

00:25:22:03 - 00:25:36:00
Kevin Eikenberry
Berio, have you go first, like if you were if we were to leave with one new question from each of you that we could be using consistently when we're selecting leaders, what would one of those be? Very. You go first.

00:25:36:02 - 00:26:01:06
Barry Conchie
Well see I'm going to I'm going to start my answer by saying that the question people ask that they should okay, is tell me a strategy you worked on recently and and how did you go about it and how was it successful? You know, one of the most inane, predictable questions you could possibly ask someone. And the reason why it's a bad question is everybody's prepared for it.

00:26:01:08 - 00:26:27:02
Barry Conchie
Everybody's got an answer. And then when everybody gives you that answer, what are you really learning from that, other than they came prepared to your interview and they have a good answer to the strategy question. So what what's what what strategies to really do this play with ideas. That's a that's a strategist in a nutshell. They play with ideas and they like contrasting ideas.

00:26:27:04 - 00:26:50:21
Barry Conchie
So they might have a similar aim. I want to look at, you know, how do we penetrate Europe as a company or how do we penetrate parts of Asia. And the strategist doesn't try to think of one answer. The strategist place lots of alternatives. So a good question to ask a person. And they unless they buy the book, they won't be able to predict and prepare for this.

00:26:50:21 - 00:27:07:08
Barry Conchie
Right. It's they'll tell me about an idea you've been intrigued by recently. Tell me about an idea you've had spinning around your mind. A natural strategist will answer that question in a heartbeat. In fact, you probably can't shut them up.

00:27:07:10 - 00:27:10:00
Kevin Eikenberry
Because they won't just tell you about one. They'll.

00:27:10:02 - 00:27:28:00
Barry Conchie
Yeah, they'll say, well, I've been thinking about this. I've been thinking about that. And the interesting thing, Kevin, is they draw them from all walks of life. You know, you'll get you've got answers saying, I was intrigued about double slit experiments in particle physics. Right. This person might be a commercial leader, but they're intrigued by that kind of thing.

00:27:28:02 - 00:27:46:11
Barry Conchie
So a natural strategist just has these ideas floating around. And when you're not, you sit there like a goldfish for a few minutes trying to process your brain to truly understand the question that you've just been asked. And they might say things like, well, what do you mean by idiots, right?

00:27:46:13 - 00:27:52:14
Kevin Eikenberry
What do you mean? As the person doing the interviewing you're getting, you're already getting the answer.

00:27:52:16 - 00:28:10:17
Barry Conchie
Yeah. So so could you could you tell me what you mean by an idea? And at that point, you might as well just slit your throat. We're done. Okay, so that's a good example of a question. That is a very good question to ask in an interview. And it's a much better upgrade. So the question that people typically ask.

00:28:10:23 - 00:28:13:05
Kevin Eikenberry
Perfect Sara, have you got one?

00:28:13:07 - 00:28:37:22
Sarah Dalton
You know, I might just keep picking on people who think they're strategic thinkers but aren't. And when you get this book, not only do we do, we give you good questions to ask. What we do is we tell you about the kinds of responses that are more predictive of ultimately, what you should be listening for, right? So another example of a good question is describe a great team meeting.

00:28:38:00 - 00:29:00:18
Sarah Dalton
And I think there are three responses that that we typically get when we use that in interviews. And one of those is the great team meeting is a short one. So we're all busy here running a company. A really good meeting is one where we hit everything on the agenda and then we're out. Right. another response that you might here is that a great team meeting is one where where everyone is heard.

00:29:00:20 - 00:29:27:08
Sarah Dalton
Right? So as I look around the table, I know that people aren't are aren't holding back. But really talented leaders go a step further and they describe a great team meeting as one where where there's a real debate, there is dissent, there is argument, there are different ideas being thrown around the table. And at the end of it, they know that the outcome that they got to was better than what they would have if everyone wasn't so quick to just agree.

00:29:27:12 - 00:29:40:17
Sarah Dalton
Right. So it's a different kind of environment, and it's one that's focused on the kind of ideas that the berries just talking about. So describe a great team meeting will tell you a lot about about how people think.

00:29:40:19 - 00:29:54:09
Kevin Eikenberry
So, I want to roll into the final part of our conversation. There's a couple things I always ask, and usually, well, I'll just start here. Sarah, you're still unmuted. what do you do, Sarah? For fun.

00:29:54:11 - 00:29:57:00
Sarah Dalton
I walk my dogs.

00:29:57:02 - 00:29:57:17
Kevin Eikenberry
All right?

00:29:57:19 - 00:29:58:10
Sarah Dalton
I'm sorry.

00:29:58:10 - 00:29:59:16
Kevin Eikenberry
I'm not dogs.

00:29:59:17 - 00:30:09:05
Sarah Dalton
Yeah, I've got multiple dogs that love to be walked. I do my best thinking outside, off leash and enjoying some fresh air.

00:30:09:06 - 00:30:11:18
Kevin Eikenberry
Awesome. Perry, what about you? What do you do for fun?

00:30:11:20 - 00:30:37:03
Barry Conchie
I destroy nonsense on LinkedIn. So unscientific pontifications from people who aren't qualified to contribute. I sometimes can't help myself, but I have attached a good research paper suggesting. Go educate yourself. I don't, I don't call people names, but I make it very, very clear that if you're going to post on such and such a subject, you need to do your homework.

00:30:37:03 - 00:30:59:07
Barry Conchie
And most people haven't. I used to be an ultra mountain marathon runner, mountain biker, rock climber. those are less a part of my life now since, you know, a few health issues took me show a few years ago, but, massively interested in the outdoors. I've also got dogs, so I've taken them out.

00:30:59:08 - 00:31:17:01
Barry Conchie
So physical, like physically active. And some of my best thinking is still on the mountain trail, you know, many miles from people. And, you just work things through in your mind. And then I trip up, fall over. It brings me back to life again.

00:31:17:03 - 00:31:34:00
Kevin Eikenberry
Which we won't go there. So there's a question that I also like to ask that I usually prep my guests with, and we didn't quite have enough time for me to tell you I was going to ask this question, but I'm going to ask it anyway. So, one of you gets the advantage because I'm going to ask you both.

00:31:34:00 - 00:31:41:22
Kevin Eikenberry
So I'm going to go with you first. Barry, what's something you're reading now or have read recently?

00:31:42:00 - 00:32:08:06
Barry Conchie
Oh, well, there are a couple of books that have come to mind. One of them is by or Seth about understanding consciousness, and it's a brilliant book. He's a young neuroscientist and he, explores the issue of consciousness for, neuroscience perspective. And, you know, the idea that consciousness exists outside of the brain is, of course, ludicrous.

00:32:08:07 - 00:32:36:19
Barry Conchie
consciousness is an emerging property of the brain. So I've been digging into that. Absolutely loving that book. and the other one, I keep going back to this book. It came out about 6 or 7 years ago, and it's called innate, and it's by an Irish neuroscientist called, Kevin Mitchell. And Kevin explores the genetic basis of psychological traits, characteristics and dispositions and relates them to studies of neuroscience.

00:32:36:19 - 00:32:38:11
Barry Conchie
So, it's.

00:32:38:11 - 00:32:40:09
Kevin Eikenberry
Very connected to the work that you guys do.

00:32:40:11 - 00:32:46:02
Barry Conchie
Right? A little heavy may be that I devour. I devour books like that.

00:32:46:04 - 00:32:50:19
Kevin Eikenberry
Sarah, you got the advantage. So now what? What are you reading these days?

00:32:50:21 - 00:33:13:15
Sarah Dalton
I can reach under my laptop here, then show you. But it's called a timeless way of building. This is written by, by an architect and a city planner. He talks about the principles of how people live and how you design spaces to kind of accommodate the not just the natural ways that people move about space, whether that's a city or their own home.

00:33:13:17 - 00:33:33:13
Sarah Dalton
I'm also doing a ton of reading right now. I spent February, lecturing at a university in Ireland there, so various been sending me books on the troubles in order to understand the kind of issues that led to that led to it. So this is another one.

00:33:33:15 - 00:33:50:06
Kevin Eikenberry
Or and the Irish town for those who can't see, we'll have all these, as we always do in the show notes. And, and, and I'll just tell both of you and tell everyone who's watching and listening that this is one of the reasons why I love this question. people who have listened for a long time know that we get all sorts of answers.

00:33:50:06 - 00:34:08:20
Kevin Eikenberry
Right? And, I learned early in my life that when you meet smart people, you asking them what they're read, reading is a good thing to do. it's expanded what I read, it's expanded my library. And I've had the chance to do that now with nearly 450 folks on this show. And, you guys didn't disappoint. That's it.

00:34:08:20 - 00:34:22:16
Kevin Eikenberry
There's a right answer. But you didn't disappoint. So, So, Barry, where can we learn more about your book? how do you where do you want to point people? Like, here's your chance to sort of tell people what they need to know about you guys, where to point them on this book.

00:34:22:18 - 00:34:49:05
Barry Conchie
X Cetera Chomsky associates.com is our website, and the book is target pretty heavily on there. And there are links on the site to all the usual channels that you buy books through, whether it's Barnes Noble, Amazon or whatever they even target, I believe. and of course all good bookshops nearby. I'm sure we'll take, we'll take all those.

00:34:49:05 - 00:35:06:15
Barry Conchie
But if you go to the website, you'll learn more about what we do, not just the book. So we give people an overview of our business consulting services. you know, so there's a there's a knowledge base there that people can explore. but that's that's where you'll find the details of the book.

00:35:06:17 - 00:35:28:21
Kevin Eikenberry
Country associates.com Co and associates.com. And before I thank you and before we close, I've got a question that I want to ask all of you who are listening and watching. It's a question I ask every single episode. It's two words. Now what what are you going to do as a result of this conversation? There's plenty for you to mine here.

00:35:28:23 - 00:35:50:02
Kevin Eikenberry
Whether it's thinking about one of these specific talents, whether it's obviously one of the things that you might be doing now is ordering your copy of the book, or hope that you will do that. But maybe it's thinking about this idea of what it means to be a strategist. Maybe it's and maybe it's thinking about the questions that you're asking when you're interviewing and selecting new leaders.

00:35:50:02 - 00:36:09:22
Kevin Eikenberry
Maybe it's any of those things. Maybe it's thinking about a couple of the surprising facts we talked about earlier and but not just thinking about them all taking action on them. I can't tell you what to act on. I can only encourage you to take action, because if you do, you'll get far more from this than just the chance to have listened to Sarah Barry and I.

00:36:09:22 - 00:36:16:03
Kevin Eikenberry
So thank you both for being here. It was a pleasure to have you. Thanks for writing a great book and for sharing some of it with us today.

00:36:16:05 - 00:36:16:19
Sarah Dalton
Kevin, thank.

00:36:16:19 - 00:36:37:14
Kevin Eikenberry
You and everybody. if you enjoyed this, share it with somebody else. If wherever, whatever platform you're listening to this on or watching it on, make sure you're subscribed so you can get future episodes. Because every week we're back with another episode, and I hope you'll be with us for the next episode of the Remarkable Leadership Podcast.