The Remarkable Leadership Podcast

00:00:08:03 - 00:00:30:21
Kevin Eikenberry
Even if we think we can't or wants to. In a turbulent and changing world, we can't achieve success alone. Most of us would agree with this. And yet all too often we don't collaborate or still try to take the lead and make things happen largely alone. I guess to say our excuse me, our guests today say the solution and the future is co-creation.

00:00:30:21 - 00:00:55:16
Kevin Eikenberry
I'm confident you'll be inspired by our conversation. Welcome to another episode of the Remarkable Leadership podcast, where we are helping leaders grow personally and professionally to lead more effectively and make a bigger difference for their teams, organizations and the world. If you're listening to this podcast in the future, you could join us live because these are all created in a live stream event.

00:00:55:18 - 00:01:17:09
Kevin Eikenberry
And so if you wanted to know about how you could join us in the future, we do it on your favorite social media channel. And so you can get access to all that. Find out when these are taking place and more by joining our Facebook or LinkedIn groups. Just go to the remarkable podcast dot com slash Facebook or remarkable podcast dot com slash LinkedIn to do that.

00:01:17:15 - 00:01:39:01
Kevin Eikenberry
Today's episode was brought to you by our remarkable master classes pick from 13 important life and leadership skills to help you become more effective, productive and confident while overcoming some of the leader's toughest challenges. You can learn more and sign up at Remarkable Masterclass dot com. Now I'm going to bring in our guests and yes, its guests today.

00:01:39:01 - 00:02:00:23
Kevin Eikenberry
For those of you listening and then I'm going to after I have them join us, here they are. I'm going to introduce them and we're going to dive in. Our guest today are Chris Dever and Ian Clawson. Chris is the co-founder of Brave Core and co-host of the Lead with a Question podcast. He has coached C-level executives and influenced Fortune 500 from the inside out.

00:02:01:01 - 00:02:26:06
Kevin Eikenberry
He's worked at both Apple and Disney, working with inspiring teams that shaped I products and Star Wars experiences. He's a regular contributor to Fast Company, has been featured in the Wall Street Journal and entrepreneur. He earned his MBA and continues to be a guest lecturer at the Marriott School at BYU in. Clawson is the co-founder of Brave Core with Chris and the co founder of that same podcast Lead with a question.

00:02:26:08 - 00:02:52:21
Kevin Eikenberry
He is a regular contributor, Fast Company as well, whose work has been featured in the Wall Street Journal. Forbes Inc, USA Today and more. He is also the co-founder of Story Circle, a development studio focused on co-creation, worldbuilding and original storytelling, acting as a lead writer and story architect. He earned his degree at BYU, Hawaii and International Cultural Studies, and where he developed a high interest in world philosophy and communication theory.

00:02:52:22 - 00:03:08:18
Kevin Eikenberry
Together, they have authored and co-created the book Brave Together, lead by Design, Spark Creativity and Shape the Future with the power of Co-creation. And after all of that. Welcome, guys. Glad to have you.

00:03:08:20 - 00:03:09:12
Ian Clawson
Thank you for having us.

00:03:09:13 - 00:03:30:05
Kevin Eikenberry
Kevin It is my pleasure. So let's start with this. We have this in common, among other things. Actually, we have a lot in common. A number of the folks in the in the that talked about your book in the blurbs have been on this show or. I know. So we have a lot in common. But one thing we have in common is we're writers of books.

00:03:30:05 - 00:03:47:04
Kevin Eikenberry
And so there's always a journey to a book. And so maybe as a way to sort of finalize a little bit more about yourselves, but also to talk a little bit about the book. What's the journey toward this book? One of you want to take a shot at that?

00:03:47:06 - 00:04:10:14
Ian Clawson
Cheryl Yeah, so it's really interesting. I never set out to write a nonfiction book. I lean more on the creative side of things, but I have a fascination for leadership and thought leader material. I enjoy those kind of books, and that's how Chris and I connected. Was this overlap of creativity and timeless principles that we find in these books.

00:04:10:16 - 00:04:37:11
Ian Clawson
So coming together, we didn't set out to, you know, tell people what to do, but it was more of this openness of of discovery. How can we find this next book that is an ecosystem of principles? You know, both Chris and I, we have history with Stephen Covey's work. We really enjoyed his material. We truly haven't seen any book since that has an ecosystem of principles.

00:04:37:11 - 00:04:58:23
Ian Clawson
A lot of the books that are out now, you know, publishers, they go that they go the safe route where it's like, just go on one thing only do a deep dive. It could be all about productivity. And there's a lot of merit to those books. There's value to be found. But what we were looking for is how could there be an ecosystem of principles for the day and age that we live in now?

00:04:59:01 - 00:05:07:23
Ian Clawson
And that was kind of the the the for me nature of how we pursued this book and the material thereof.

00:05:08:01 - 00:05:27:15
Kevin Eikenberry
So so, Chris, I'll address this one to you then. And you can, of course, change anything that Ian just said if you want to. But in reality, you know, if that's what you attempted to do, you used a very interesting word in the title. That word is brave. So. So, Chris, Why brave?

00:05:27:17 - 00:05:53:22
Chris Deaver
Yeah. Most of us, how we experience fear in some big or small way every day, you know, conscious or subconscious at work, at home, and things that are unknowns or or things that we are just worried about or stressed out about. And, you know, we can stay in that space and just live in fear. And it's it's you know, it kind of we hear, you know, toxic bosses.

00:05:53:22 - 00:06:32:23
Chris Deaver
We hear those stories about cultures people don't love or they struggle in. And that's that's fear based. And the way out is by being brave. And, you know, it empowers us to just have a different mindset. And as we are brave, we can, you know, explore things together. We can, you know, live ego free, collaborate and, you know, build things that, you know, not you know, none of us may have been able to have imagined before coming into a meeting together or having the kind of conversations that that we can have together.

00:06:33:01 - 00:06:57:13
Kevin Eikenberry
So the first word in the title is brave, brave together, and the last word or word in the title is co-creation. So what do you mean? I mean, I think a lot of times we hear a word like we all sort of know what you mean by co-creation or we have an idea. But I don't know that until you read or dive into the book or listen to this show, will you really know what you two mean?

00:06:57:13 - 00:07:04:18
Kevin Eikenberry
So when you use that word intentionally, what are you meaning by it?

00:07:04:20 - 00:07:28:14
Ian Clawson
Right. So back to writing the book, Right? You know, if I set out to write this book by myself, it wouldn't have ended up the way it was at all. So it's it's great to have a coauthor, but it's messy, right? Co-creation is messy. And so but I think, you know, like, for example, we had the intro of the book that was written.

00:07:28:17 - 00:07:50:19
Ian Clawson
And in reviewing, you know, the quality check of our book, you know, we challenge each other to improve the intro the way it started out. And there's a little bit of heartburn at first, right? When someone challenges because you put everything on the table, you're like, Hey, it's great. And to too many degrees, it is good work that we do individually.

00:07:50:21 - 00:08:18:14
Ian Clawson
But if, if there's principles at the base, you know, principles like respect, you know, good communication, candor, radical candor, things like that, then there's an openness to co-creation. And I think the traditional sense of teamwork or collaboration, it's it's kind of assignment. It's project based. You know, like if you work with an employer, you don't necessarily choose the people that you have to work as a team with.

00:08:18:16 - 00:08:38:20
Ian Clawson
Co-creation is more intentional and it's being open to and even desiring to work with other people, right? So knowing that there's a there's a sense of humility, knowing that you don't have all the answers and your skill set and gifts could take you so far. And that's what the power of co-creation really is.

00:08:38:22 - 00:09:01:16
Kevin Eikenberry
Okay, so that sounds really good, right? I'm going to play the cynic here, which is not my best suit, but that sounds really good. And people might be listening saying, Well, that's easy. If two of us have decided to write a book together, but I'm in the workplace or I've got a team. How do I create code? How do I get co-creation to happen when there is a project, when there are tasks, when when I may not have picked all the people on the team?

00:09:01:21 - 00:09:13:10
Kevin Eikenberry
So all of those things being true. Expand on that a little bit more as it relates to what most people would see as their current workplace.

00:09:13:12 - 00:09:52:20
Chris Deaver
Yeah, a lot of times, you know, we we talk about flow, right? This state of being where you're step outside of time, right. In art or in sports where we love and that that happens individually. At times it feels a little rare. But how often does that happen at work or in conversations? And that's something we can amplify that has it's a it's a kind of perpetual source of energy, like perpetual motion that can power projects.

00:09:52:20 - 00:10:12:18
Chris Deaver
It can power builds, it can power, you know, shaping products, new products and different services that, you know, weren't didn't exist before that are that are, you know, truly kind of leading edge or that that that, you know, I'm going to bring this into the future.

00:10:12:20 - 00:10:34:16
Kevin Eikenberry
So one of the things that you do relatively early in the book is give us some examples of what co-creation could look like in one of the most common experiences we all have at work, which is meetings. So let's just get really, really practical for a second. Like I'm guessing, Chris, everyone listening to you and they're saying that all sounds awesome.

00:10:34:21 - 00:10:47:23
Kevin Eikenberry
I love that big picture thinking I'm going to five meetings in the next 4 hours. So like what? What does what does co-creation look like? Give us a couple of specific examples of what that would look like in meetings.

00:10:48:01 - 00:11:12:07
Chris Deaver
Yeah. So you start with reimagining the meeting as a brief conversation, right? So it's an exchange, you know, not just transactional, but transformative. And so you have a different way, a different outlook of being open to changing your mind. And that's a kind of the groundwork is Ian said about the power of leading with questions. They do this at Pixar.

00:11:12:09 - 00:11:31:15
Chris Deaver
So the plan to question, you know, week in advance, or at least before a meeting and let people marinate on that question. And so it just emerges as something that they've had some time to an intention to be thoughtful about and to explore. So there's that there's a couple of things you can start with.

00:11:31:17 - 00:11:55:02
Kevin Eikenberry
I always want to add to that point of leading with questions, and we can talk more about that principle in general in a second. But as it relates to meetings, I think that the idea of giving people something to think about ahead of time is incredibly valuable for a whole bunch of reasons. We don't have time to unpack all of them, but the thing I just want to say is it isn't leading with a question, it's leading with questions.

00:11:55:02 - 00:12:19:20
Kevin Eikenberry
And so I'm thinking about a meeting that that I led last Friday that everyone on the team had the questions and it was like five of them several days before, the intention being that I didn't necessarily need the answers to any one of those questions specifically, but as a group, they set the framework for what we were going to talk about and I think made it a far more productive sort of setting.

00:12:20:01 - 00:12:20:12
Ian Clawson
Awesome.

00:12:20:13 - 00:12:22:00
Kevin Eikenberry
And you're nodding. You're nodding your head.

00:12:22:02 - 00:12:51:22
Ian Clawson
Yeah. Yeah. I think it just automatically creates an invitation to others to add, you know, creativity, to add ideas, because many times meetings that we are part of, it's very agenda driven. You know, like the the employers or a leader wants to control the outcomes. And so it's very top down agenda driven download session almost people show up to meetings checked out at the start of it.

00:12:51:22 - 00:13:04:07
Ian Clawson
They know what to expect. It's very predictable. So doing this with questions really open things up to, I can help shape this. And it's there's a sense of empowerment there.

00:13:04:09 - 00:13:28:05
Kevin Eikenberry
So in use you said that you've you both have learned a lot from the work of of Dr. Covey. And of course, the seven habits is what everyone thinks of in this book. You guys have six principles. And the first one we've just been talking about, which is to lead with a question. What I appreciate about each of the six is that that you talk about the idea lead with a question or lead with questions.

00:13:28:07 - 00:13:48:00
Kevin Eikenberry
And then then you say, well, this is about wisdom. And then each of the six there's a principle inside of the task or the behavior, if you will, anything else we've talked about this one in as it relates relates to meetings, but anything else you guys want to add on this one before we move on? Either of you?

00:13:48:00 - 00:14:07:23
Chris Deaver
I think it's one, yeah. When you look at yeah, and we talk about this later in the book, but it's it's one of the components of what we call the building blocks of culture, right? So you kind of Legos, you want to build something and you want to build something meaningful in a culture. Shared wisdom is a great place to start.

00:14:08:01 - 00:14:15:11
Chris Deaver
There's and there's others deep empathy being powered by principles as well. Yeah.

00:14:15:13 - 00:14:34:22
Kevin Eikenberry
Okay. So the next of the principles and we don't have time to go in all that deeply on any of them, obviously everybody. So we are talking to Chris Dever and Ian Clawson, the authors of the new book Brave Together. If you're watching, you can see it in front of my face, bring together by design, spark creativity, Shape the Future with the power of co-creation.

00:14:35:03 - 00:14:57:20
Kevin Eikenberry
Six principles is I just want to sort of highlight a couple more of them and and let you guys sort of talk about them as you wish. So. The second one, though, is has an interesting description to me, which is turn pain into power. Like, that doesn't sound really fun to me. And most of us don't love that idea of pain.

00:14:57:23 - 00:15:04:00
Kevin Eikenberry
And you're saying, no, we need to turn that into something powerful. What do you mean by that?

00:15:04:02 - 00:15:22:05
Ian Clawson
Right. Well, it follows up nicely with lead with the question. Right. So if you were to look in the mirror as a leader and you have struggles with your team or at work or outcomes in results. First thing you're going to do is you're going to lead with the question. You're going to ask yourself, what can I do differently?

00:15:22:07 - 00:15:49:00
Ian Clawson
Right? And so this next principle is actually taking those steps with the intention of starting to show up differently. Right. And so that can be scary. A lot of times we think we need to do more. So this principle challenges us to maybe consider shaving things down a bit, maybe giving up some negative attributes or habits that, you know, are no longer serving our future and get real about that.

00:15:49:02 - 00:16:07:20
Ian Clawson
And so that's one way you could turn pain into power is just switch switching your thinking or flipping the script, rather, instead of focusing on the losses, which is just suffering and pain, focusing on the gains, what can you do today? Just baby steps to to start to pivot towards that future.

00:16:07:22 - 00:16:26:21
Kevin Eikenberry
And if this one is about passion, the next one is about compassion, which you guys describe as which I love, by the way, making others the mission. Make others the mission. So, Chris, what do you what do you mean by this? How does how does this one play out for us as a leader?

00:16:26:23 - 00:16:51:18
Chris Deaver
Yeah, this sounds big for well, give an example. You know, Satya Nadella, Microsoft, which they're just nipping at the tails of Apple right now for the most valuable company in the world. And, you know, it wasn't long ago that that Steve Ballmer was was kind of running the company into the ground, let's say, culturally, you know, sweating on on the stage.

00:16:51:20 - 00:17:14:03
Chris Deaver
But, you know, he had some a fair amount of success. But there's a lot of execution orientation stack ranking, you know, and you just had a culture of what was it? Well, it wasn't optimized. It wasn't it wasn't as great as it could be. And so Satya takes over. But what's the real difference? It's deep empathy and how did he develop that empathy he had?

00:17:14:05 - 00:17:41:09
Chris Deaver
He and his wife had a son named Zane who had had cerebral palsy. And so he spent a lot of time taking care of his son and learned from the example of his wife as to make that kind of hear a sacrifice and just spend that time and really be present. And that that deep empathy, you know, led him has led him to bring that to the culture of Microsoft.

00:17:41:11 - 00:18:04:06
Chris Deaver
And people feel it and you feel it in the products. They don't feel as clinical. You know, it feels much more intuitive and, you know, it has made some great decisions. But he's out. He's probably also doing a lot of brain trusting and listening and connecting with his, you know, kind of key constituencies. You know, I mean, just few examples, open eye, you know, some brilliant moves that they've made.

00:18:04:06 - 00:18:06:05
Chris Deaver
So it's good stuff.

00:18:06:07 - 00:18:31:19
Kevin Eikenberry
All right. So the next two principles are about action and purpose. And I'm curious why you put the action. One, define the situation ahead of the context one or purpose. So I'm just curious. I think those are two things we pretty much all can understand, Right. But I'm also confident you had a reason or rationale for listing action before purpose.

00:18:31:19 - 00:18:33:00
Kevin Eikenberry
Why?

00:18:33:02 - 00:19:01:19
Ian Clawson
So I think people's notion with purpose is they feel like they got to find their purpose. They're always searching externally. Right. And we believe that, you know, prior to really understanding and embracing your purpose, knowing it on a deep level, it's taking action. It's it's being brave. Back to the theme of the book and brave with others. Taking action with others is where you're going to really learn more about your purpose.

00:19:02:00 - 00:19:22:22
Ian Clawson
And I think people feel like they got to have it all written down there. Why? And it's got to mean something for their actions to land. Really. It's we have a phrase that we use experiment with experience, which just means just just get your hands dirty. Just go and do the work. You want to write a book, Don't just research and read tons of books for years.

00:19:23:04 - 00:19:38:03
Ian Clawson
Start writing, and you're going to refine your practice. You're going to you're going to get sharper with your messaging. You're going to have clearer words in, and that's how you really come to find your purpose. So I think that ordering matters to us.

00:19:38:05 - 00:19:55:19
Kevin Eikenberry
I think that example and obviously as a as an author as well, maybe it resonates for me more, but I will I've told hundreds of people. That's right. That as you write, you find your voice. And so finding your voice is sort of like finding that purpose. So I love this idea.

00:19:55:20 - 00:19:57:06
Ian Clawson
Use your voice.

00:19:57:08 - 00:20:27:18
Kevin Eikenberry
Right? I love this idea of don't wait to figure that out. Figure it out in the process, Right? Experiment with experience. I love that a lot. So the last of the six principles is follow true North and the principle being alignment. So talk to us about that one. I think this is again, something that people people know that alignment matters, but I don't think that we do it very well.

00:20:27:20 - 00:20:35:19
Kevin Eikenberry
So what would be some advice about how to create better alignment within our team and with our team to the rest of the organization?

00:20:35:21 - 00:21:06:01
Chris Deaver
Yeah. So as as we've been setting context or building the story of, let's say, the future culture, right, what we want to have, right, that culture that we love, we can get better at working as a collective, as a team, and we see this kind of movement and rhythm in sports teams when they play well together. And the difference between when they do or don't and, you know, prime example, Golden State Warriors right now, that's so much sometimes.

00:21:06:02 - 00:21:48:17
Chris Deaver
Draymond Green, he's the outlier here there. But there have been times when they've been fully aligned and dialed in and they're following their true North to be successful as a team. And so there's examples like that in sport. And then, you know, in the workplace, it's, you know, seeing how we can, you know, and there may be moments of disagree and commit there may be rock tumbling debates best ideas win but then you align around you know and just really stay focused on that and that North star you know throughout And you know, another example is teams at Apple.

00:21:48:19 - 00:22:10:11
Chris Deaver
You know, they would always go back to in times of wrestle or struggle or debate, hey, we're out and we're out to make the best product in this category. Fill in the blank. Right. So if it was the Beats Pro, that's what we're here for. So you have your ideas. I got mine. We disagree on this or that, but ultimately that's what we're after.

00:22:10:16 - 00:22:18:01
Chris Deaver
And so if people can stay focused on their main intention, there's there's power in that.

00:22:18:03 - 00:22:59:20
Kevin Eikenberry
That's the word that I was just thinking of was intention fact. I just was writing about organizational creating organizational intention. And it requires alignment is a key piece of that very that very thing. So I'm curious about one other thing. One of you mentioned it at the start. And, you know, those of us who are listening to this podcast are watching us live, have leader in our title or leader as a part of our role and whether we want to acknowledge that or not as humans and as leaders, there's ego involved in that.

00:22:59:22 - 00:23:23:04
Kevin Eikenberry
And when we talk about co-creating so much of what we've talked about for the last 20 plus minutes has been about sort of the collective and not about the individual. And so what is that? What advice would you have about the role of ego in what we're talking about today?

00:23:23:06 - 00:23:52:08
Chris Deaver
Yeah, I think one quick thought on that is, you know, in in the year 2020, we just passed through 2023. So here we are, 24. Gotta remember we, you know, the Western Webster, the top word was in the dictionary was authenticity. And a lot of people use this word, you know and Brené Brown's popularized it's it's very talked about and that's that's good.

00:23:52:10 - 00:24:16:07
Chris Deaver
But you know one of the dangers or risks is we call it toxic authenticity. Right? So if it's if it's about propping up ourselves to, you know, or just focusing on what we need over others, you know, it's not it's not going to have the effect or the power or staying power, you know, that that we need for the future.

00:24:16:09 - 00:24:27:22
Chris Deaver
And so we think about it as true authenticity. And, you know, going back to the empathic conversation we were having earlier, it's more and more tied to that. Yeah.

00:24:28:00 - 00:24:28:21
Kevin Eikenberry
Anyone and that.

00:24:28:21 - 00:24:42:05
Ian Clawson
Ian Yeah, I think there's this self-made pressure that people, individuals, leaders even have to have all the answers to to be that that rock star right?

00:24:42:07 - 00:24:44:10
Kevin Eikenberry
And you talk about that a lot in.

00:24:44:10 - 00:25:10:20
Ian Clawson
The book is to be the expert. Right? And I think those around us are disempowered if we are acting in that way. But you can go farther with the collective. And I think there's a learning curve for people that really start to understand that it's a journey, it's an individual journey for people to embrace that notion. And so part a part of a leader's, I guess, stewardship is to help others along that path.

00:25:10:22 - 00:25:18:18
Ian Clawson
How can we help people, you know, shift towards that collective leaning and be brave together?

00:25:18:20 - 00:25:40:15
Kevin Eikenberry
Yeah, I think it's it's so true for so many of us that we got into the leader seat because we were expert, because we were really good at something. Right. And so for us to be able to make that shift out of that ego is not a bad thing. As long as we keep it in the right perspective.

00:25:40:15 - 00:26:00:16
Kevin Eikenberry
And in fact, if we have a really strong ego, we have the ability to really, I think, lead and be a part of co-creation before we go round the final turn into the final part of our conversation, if I said to each of you, what's one thing we didn't talk about that you wished I would have asked, What would that be?

00:26:00:16 - 00:26:11:16
Kevin Eikenberry
Chris, you first. Well, I don't have anything and I did a fine job. Awesome. But what's one thing we didn't talk about that you kind of wish we would have?

00:26:11:18 - 00:26:35:21
Chris Deaver
One that we talk about as well as what? Why do companies kill creativity and, you know, just unlocking the power of creativity in this context of team and working together is is a powerful thing. You know, the Sir Ken Robinson question right. Was it was time to schools. Right. So Ted, you know, but we think about it in terms of business too and work.

00:26:35:21 - 00:26:53:07
Chris Deaver
And, you know, there's just so much focus on results and performance and kind of squeezing creativity out that that voice, the true identity of people can get lost. And there's top and there's power in that. So we need to ensure that that's part of, you know, part of everything.

00:26:53:09 - 00:27:16:17
Ian Clawson
Ian You know, I'd like to maybe dive a little bit further with, with the concept of leadership. I think there's a lot of people that may come across our articles or book and and they may say, I don't have a formal title as a leader. How does this apply to me? And that's a beautiful idea around this framework, is anyone can be a co-creator.

00:27:16:19 - 00:27:36:11
Ian Clawson
It's a mindset. You could be a co-creator as an employee and make a difference in your team dynamics by by shifting the way you practice and approach work. Co-created fully, right? And and with this foundation of principles, I think is is is the key here.

00:27:36:13 - 00:27:47:17
Kevin Eikenberry
So Ian, the question actually, Chris, you're going to get it too, but here you go. Ian I'm shifting gears before we finish up. What do you do? Ian For fun.

00:27:47:19 - 00:28:14:19
Ian Clawson
Wow. You know, a lot of it is writing. I love creative work and so you know that the nonfiction writing is a lot of fun too, because if you can get clarity around these concepts and it's there's different iterations, right? I really enjoy writing and helping others kind of see what you envision yourself as a as an author, a writer.

00:28:14:21 - 00:28:17:19
Ian Clawson
It's hard to it's hard to pull off.

00:28:17:21 - 00:28:19:22
Kevin Eikenberry
Chris, what about you?

00:28:20:00 - 00:28:31:00
Chris Deaver
I enjoy spending time with my kids, you know, co-creating paintings, playing sports together. You know, board games. All those things are really fun.

00:28:31:02 - 00:28:34:08
Kevin Eikenberry
Apparently watching the Warriors or maybe this season that's not quite.

00:28:34:08 - 00:28:37:14
Ian Clawson
Is not not so much fun, better years.

00:28:37:16 - 00:28:45:17
Kevin Eikenberry
So the only thing you knew I was going to ask, which I told you just before we went live and Chris, you can go first with this one. What are you reading these days?

00:28:45:19 - 00:29:04:05
Chris Deaver
I'm actually listening to well, it's the star book that counts, but our audio book is out. So it's you know, it's interesting to hear your say our own voices, but it's actually we have a narrator and and then Psychology of Money by Morgan Housel. Yeah.

00:29:04:07 - 00:29:07:11
Kevin Eikenberry
All right. And Ian.

00:29:07:13 - 00:29:39:01
Ian Clawson
I'm currently revisiting an end to end 2023, and I'm carrying it over to 24. Malcolm Gladwell's books. And so the 1021 particular, the one that talks about the 10,000 our world, I'm really fascinated revisiting that because I've read other books like Range with David Epstein, which he kind of challenges that some I'm contrasting because I think Malcolm Gladwell is a great storyteller and it really helps me with my writing.

00:29:39:01 - 00:29:42:10
Ian Clawson
So I'm just revisiting these concepts.

00:29:42:12 - 00:30:10:06
Kevin Eikenberry
I am Miss, I am. I'm forgetting in this moment and I don't want to look away as we're doing this live, but that the researcher from Florida State, that was his research was underneath the 10,000 rule. His coauthor was on this show and I will put that in the show notes for everybody. If you're listening, as long as we always do, we'll put that in the show notes that the other books that have been mentioned here, as well as, of course, Brave Together.

00:30:10:06 - 00:30:20:09
Kevin Eikenberry
So how where do you want to point people so that they can learn more about you guys, your work and this book, Brave Together.

00:30:20:11 - 00:30:38:09
Chris Deaver
Yeah, Brave caught CEO. So with that brave that CEO as the best way to connect with us, you know, get the book, get other free artifacts and resources connects, you know, connect with links and articles that we have. Yeah.

00:30:38:11 - 00:30:53:09
Kevin Eikenberry
All right. Well, listen, before we go, everybody, and first of all, I want to thank both of you for being here. It was worth the wait to do this. I had the chance to read the book a while back and we were able to put this together, and I'm excited that we were able to do that. So thank you both for being here.

00:30:53:09 - 00:31:13:12
Kevin Eikenberry
But I have a question and I'm going to ask all of you as viewers and listeners. It's the question I ask every single episode, which is now what? Okay, so you heard all of this. What are you going to do with it? What action are you going to take? Maybe action is your answer. Maybe you're going to experiment with experience.

00:31:13:14 - 00:31:37:01
Kevin Eikenberry
Maybe you're going to take any of the other ideas that you heard today and say, I'm going to put that into action for myself or with my team. Maybe it's getting a copy of this book, but whatever it is, ideas are wonderful action. Turn them into something far more powerful. So I hope that you will take some action on what you heard today.

00:31:37:01 - 00:31:41:15
Kevin Eikenberry
And again, guys, thanks to both of you for being here. It was a pleasure to have you.

00:31:41:17 - 00:31:43:11
Ian Clawson
Thank you Again.

00:31:43:13 - 00:31:59:20
Kevin Eikenberry
And with that, I will let you all go. But we'll be back. So I hope you'll be back if you're with us live. We'll be back tomorrow, but we'll be back next week, as always, with another episode of the Remarkable Leadership podcast. I hope you'll join me. I look forward to it then. Thanks.