The Remarkable Leadership Podcast

00:00:08:18 - 00:00:32:18
Kevin Eikenberry
In case you haven't noticed, there's a lot changing in our world. As leaders, we must know that, acknowledge that and lead through it. Maybe even in spite of it. But perhaps more than incremental and ongoing change, we must focus on transformation to transform in the face of disruption requires we take a leap or several of them. That is our focus today.

00:00:32:18 - 00:00:56:07
Kevin Eikenberry
The leaps we must take to transform our companies, teams and results. Welcome to another episode of the Remarkable Leadership Podcast, where we are helping leaders grow personally and professionally to make a bigger difference for their teams, organizations, and the world. If you are listening to this podcast, you could be with us in the future. Live to see these conversations sooner.

00:00:56:10 - 00:01:19:02
Kevin Eikenberry
Get the information sooner and you can do that on any of your favorite social media channels. you can learn about when those are happening. So you can join us by joining either our Facebook or LinkedIn groups. Just go to remarkable podcast.com/facebook or remarkable podcast.com/linkedin. Or if you subscribe to my YouTube channel, you'll find it there as well.

00:01:19:10 - 00:01:44:15
Kevin Eikenberry
today's episode is brought to you by our remarkable masterclasses. Pick from 13 important life and leadership skills to help you become a more effective, productive, and confident leader while overcoming some of the toughest challenges you might face. You can learn more and sign up at Remarkable masterclass.com. And now I'm going to bring in our guest. His name is Steve Dennis and if you're with me on on video you can now see he's there.

00:01:44:20 - 00:02:15:00
Kevin Eikenberry
And let me introduce him while he smiles at you. His name is Steve Dennis. He is a strategic advisor, keynote speaker, podcast host, and the author of Remarkable Retail and his newest book, Leaders Leap Transforming Your Company at the Speed of Disruption. He has been named a top global retail influencer by several organizations, and his thoughts on the future of shopping are regularly shared in his role as a Forbes Senior contributor, as well as through other media including CNN, The Wall Street Journal, and Bloomberg.

00:02:15:02 - 00:02:38:00
Kevin Eikenberry
He is the president of Sage Berry Consulting, where he has advised dozens of brands on their growth strategies. Prior to founding Sage Berry, he was the Chief Strategy Officer and SVP of Multi-channel marketing at the Neiman Marcus Group. He serves on multiple profit and not for profit boards. He holds an MBA from Harvard, Harvard Business School, and a B.A. in economics from Tufts.

00:02:38:02 - 00:02:47:09
Kevin Eikenberry
And now he can add being a guest on the remarkable leadership team to that is probably not going to get added to the bio. But Steve, welcome. I'm so glad that you're here.

00:02:47:11 - 00:02:50:13
Steve Dennis
Hi, Kevin. Thanks. yeah, I'll make sure we update that.

00:02:50:14 - 00:02:51:09
Kevin Eikenberry
Yeah, just just.

00:02:51:09 - 00:02:53:13
Steve Dennis
As we get off the mic. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. For the.

00:02:53:13 - 00:03:18:05
Kevin Eikenberry
Long version. Right. but listen, I'm so glad that you're here. I love the book. We had the chance to chat for a few minutes before we went live, and I'm glad you're here. So I want to start with a question I often ask. I guess I ask most of the time, because, you know, you've done all this work in retail and you've written books and, and here you are in your career, and this is probably not at all what you thought you do when you were like ten.

00:03:18:07 - 00:03:31:11
Kevin Eikenberry
Right. So, like, you know, so, so just give us a obviously very high level, but give us kind of a sense, like, how do you end up doing this and why is this the work of your life now?

00:03:31:13 - 00:03:51:18
Steve Dennis
Oh, well, I often say, what a long, strange trip it's been, because, yeah, you're absolutely right. I was, I did not have this on my bingo card, but, you know, the the through line, I think at least for the past 20 or 30 years, is I've always been interested in trying to solve the most interesting problems, I guess, for lack of a better term.

00:03:51:18 - 00:04:17:11
Steve Dennis
And as I got into my career and as I got into retail, I tended to gravitate towards either maybe in a somewhat pathological way, dealing with really thorny, turnaround kind of situations or being on that edge of innovation and, you know, what's the next big thing to work on? So that was an early role in e-commerce and then led to a bunch of other things.

00:04:17:11 - 00:04:41:08
Steve Dennis
So that's been the through line. But the way that's played out, was really first trying to climb the corporate ladder at several big companies. Then when I got off on my own about 15 years ago as a consultant, I just try to find different ways to get my ideas out. That led me to writing blogs, going to be a senior contributor at Forbes, starting to do speaking.

00:04:41:08 - 00:05:11:10
Steve Dennis
And then I kind of said, well, you know, if I'm doing this keynote speaking thing, I probably need a book. And so that, you know, in some ways that were the next logical thing to do. at the same time, it was really just finding ways to to get my ideas out there and hopefully influence people. So now it's late, or at least the last few years, it's really been a shift away from necessarily trying to do the thing that's going to make me the most money or get me the most acclaim to to hopefully helping people, companies and organizations achieve their highest potential.

00:05:11:10 - 00:05:21:12
Steve Dennis
So, I don't know, it's, I was told a long, long time ago that when you get to the fork in the road, take it. And, sometimes that's worked out and and other times not so much.

00:05:21:14 - 00:05:31:19
Kevin Eikenberry
Well, hopefully the fork that led you to today ends up being a good thing for both of us. I know that it will. So one of the things we all have in common, I mean, I don't know how much we have in common. I mean, we've both written books and that sort of thing, you know, some similar kinds of work.

00:05:31:22 - 00:05:34:16
Kevin Eikenberry
But the other thing we have in common is we both like the word remarkable. I was.

00:05:34:16 - 00:05:35:10
Steve Dennis
Going to say yes.

00:05:35:14 - 00:06:01:22
Kevin Eikenberry
For, a very long time. and approaching 20 years and, starting with remarkable leadership, the book. And so I, you know, I found that I found that great as I was reading and getting to know your work as well. So, so, I'm, I'm interested in why the word leaps, like, I mean, we're going to talk about the seven leaps before we're done here, but, like, like there's something to me about that idea of a leap, right?

00:06:01:22 - 00:06:11:13
Kevin Eikenberry
If things are uncertain and we don't know, we're making a leap. But I'm just curious why you picked that and talk about just that idea of leaping, if you would, for a second.

00:06:11:15 - 00:06:34:04
Steve Dennis
Sure. I didn't I mean, it's been rattling around in my brain for, for a little while. it actually ties a little bit to the use of the word remarkable. So I went to college with Seth Godin that I imagined and started a business with him when I was, 19 or 20. And we've we've stayed, great friends for for a long time.

00:06:34:04 - 00:07:05:06
Steve Dennis
And, and not only did Seth make a big deal about the idea of being remarkable in his book Purple Cow, but he also frequently talks about about taking a leap. So I know I had that rattling around in the back of my brain for quite some time, but when I started to work on this book, you know, the thing that I kept coming back to and it actually doesn't show up in the book in exactly this way, is this question of if the world has changed so much, why have you changed so little?

00:07:05:08 - 00:07:30:03
Steve Dennis
And by the you I sometimes mean the leader. In some cases I mean the business. And as as I've worked in retail and I've worked with clients, what I've really seen as the pace of change accelerating. And yet at the same time, many organizations working in a very slow and steady kind of pace, you know, incremental change, faster horse, whatever you want to call it.

00:07:30:05 - 00:07:53:09
Steve Dennis
And, you know, so then I started thinking about, well, there's this leapfrog kind of thing you need to do that if you're falling further and further behind, you're not going to catch up by incremental change. But even if you take some bold steps, may end up just innovating to parity. As I describe it in the book, you know, this best practice kind of idea doesn't necessarily work super well when when the world is changing so quickly.

00:07:53:11 - 00:07:54:00
Steve Dennis
But the other.

00:07:54:00 - 00:08:17:17
Kevin Eikenberry
Thing right there, I'm going to stop you. Right? There's the idea that I talk about in the manuscript that I just finished for my next book that comes out next April, is that very point that, that best practices for the world that we live in, is not very helpful because. Right, because because we're, we're trying to go and look at something that's set when nothing is set anymore.

00:08:17:17 - 00:08:18:05
Kevin Eikenberry
Yeah.

00:08:18:07 - 00:08:42:02
Steve Dennis
No, it's it's, I think Tom Peters is talking. I mean, others have talked about the idea of best practices not being super helpful. So I don't want to sound like, you know, I necessarily came up with that, that idea. But but the other the other thing, and it's not specific to like one of things I end up the book with is talking more about what a leap means.

00:08:42:04 - 00:09:11:11
Steve Dennis
And I think there's both the kind of mindset shift, which is definitely the heart of the book, that you have to let go of, a way of showing up in the world, a way of leading, a way of operating to be able to get to a fundamentally different place. so there's so there's a letting go aspect. But I also just, I think visually like this idea that you're in one place and you have to move to a very different place.

00:09:11:11 - 00:09:37:21
Steve Dennis
And in some cases, and in most cases, that requires what appears to be a fair amount of risk, that requires you doing things that you haven't done in the past. So it's really much this idea of a visual of good, right? Getting from here to there, kind of crossing the chasm, so to speak. to, to be, you know, I mean, if you're going to transform, you have to change a lot of things 100%.

00:09:38:03 - 00:09:58:11
Kevin Eikenberry
So which which takes me to a quote in the book, that's not your quote. It's Peter Drucker's quote. So you've been talking about this a little bit. I'm just going to read this quote and let you sort of say any more along that, along the stream where you just were, in relationship to it, because you quote Peter as saying, the greatest danger in times of turbulence is not the turbulence.

00:09:58:15 - 00:10:11:18
Kevin Eikenberry
It's acting with yesterday's logic. And that, to me, is an extension of what you've just been saying about this idea. And I said it in the open, incremental change isn't going to cut it. Right. Anything more you want to say about that before we go on?

00:10:11:20 - 00:10:32:17
Steve Dennis
Yeah. Well, just, one point of clarification, because the the subtitle of the book is transforming at the Speed of Disruption. And one of the things I found people asking about is, you know, what do I mean by the speed of disruption? And, you know, it's kind of like your mileage may vary, right? Speed of disruption is going to be different depending upon your situation.

00:10:32:19 - 00:10:56:04
Steve Dennis
Maybe my dry cleaner down the street is not going through. You know, maybe I is not trained. Probably I is not transforming their business. It's a relatively stable business where incremental improvement is probably perfectly fine. But we all know of lots and lots of industries which have seen seismic shifts, whether they started five years ago, whether they started 25 years ago.

00:10:56:08 - 00:11:22:10
Steve Dennis
So in a world that is, generally speaking, changing very, very quickly, whether that's customer needs or changing competitive dynamics or changing the most obvious one is technology. then what got you here? Do you know? And again, it could be the leader. It could be the brand. What got you here is not likely to get you where you need to go in the future.

00:11:22:12 - 00:11:33:12
Kevin Eikenberry
And I mean, you open the book with a story when you were at Sears, like, oh, that's all we have to say. We've made that point right there. Got that there for 100 plus years, did not allow them to continue, right?

00:11:33:12 - 00:12:00:22
Steve Dennis
Absolutely, absolutely. So I think that, and well, really, not only is it fairly unlikely, if you are in a part of the world or an industry that is changing very quickly or is likely to change very quickly going forward, not only is it likely the case that the business model that you've been operating on is going to continue to propel you forward, but also the way you've led is is very, likely not to get you where you need to get to.

00:12:00:22 - 00:12:28:05
Steve Dennis
But I would say in many cases, and I've seen this not only studying certain companies, but working directly with, well, on management teams, without naming too many names, but also some clients where it may actually get in the way of you being successful. I talk about, Adam Grant's excellent book, Think Again. And he does a much more in-depth analysis of how, leadership bias.

00:12:28:07 - 00:12:44:21
Steve Dennis
You know, it could be confirmation bias. It could just be habits. It could be we're pretty comfortable doing the things we've always done because it's gotten results we like. But again, that's that. You need to at least look at whether that those things are serving you well.

00:12:44:22 - 00:13:00:03
Kevin Eikenberry
And we could take that one idea a lot of different directions as well. I know that I want to get to the leaps, though, Steve. There are seven of them. Right. And and we don't we certainly don't have time to unpack them all, in part because you all need to get your own copy of Steve. Military right.

00:13:00:05 - 00:13:02:01
Kevin Eikenberry
Leaders, leaders leap.

00:13:02:03 - 00:13:06:10
Steve Dennis
You sound like my publicist. Don't you know, don't give the whole book out or, you know, and.

00:13:06:12 - 00:13:24:15
Kevin Eikenberry
Yeah, they all worry about that. Like, there's no way that's going to happen, right? Like, and this and this is not, this is not as long as some books that you all might be reading or thinking about. Like if you're watching, you can see like, this is only it's less than 200, right. It's worth 202. So that counts the acknowledgment.

00:13:24:15 - 00:13:34:22
Kevin Eikenberry
So it's less than that. you know, we write those acknowledgments, Steve, and then most people won't read them. I always read them because as an author, I'm hoping someone will read mine. so.

00:13:35:00 - 00:13:38:21
Steve Dennis
Are they're looking for you or you're looking for if you're like me, like you're looking for your name.

00:13:38:23 - 00:13:42:15
Kevin Eikenberry
Well, most of the time I'm going to assume that's not the case.

00:13:42:20 - 00:13:45:18
Steve Dennis
I can assure you that almost none of the times has.

00:13:45:19 - 00:13:59:09
Kevin Eikenberry
That's really quite lovely when it does. Which actually, is related to the first of the leaps, because the first of the leap says to crush your ego. What do you mean? What do you mean by crushing your ego?

00:13:59:11 - 00:14:24:01
Steve Dennis
Sure. So one of the things that, is different about this book, I believe, and I hope is useful, is, you know, there are tons of really good strategy books, lots of books that tell you about how to innovate better, how to transform, and not just books, podcasts, pep talks, you name it. what I think is lacking from many of them.

00:14:24:01 - 00:14:50:14
Steve Dennis
And to talk about the acknowledgments, I acknowledge many of those books that have informed my thinking. So it's not as if I think they're not helpful. they can be very, very helpful. But what we know is most transformations fail. And it is generally, at least in my experience, in my analysis, not because leaders don't have a sense of what they need to do, nor do they have the tools and resources to help them figure out a better strategy.

00:14:50:16 - 00:15:12:06
Steve Dennis
What often happens is that the leaders get in the way. They they know what to do, but they fail to do it. So what I really wanted to understand, and I lean heavily on my own experience, but also studying companies and observing, working with clients is, you know, what gets in the way of doing what you know, you need to do.

00:15:12:06 - 00:15:34:23
Steve Dennis
And so many of the seven my, my that seven leadership mind leaps deal with that. but what I've come to see is that ego is often the enemy. And, it's been my experience that when I was not my best, when I didn't do some of the things that would have been demonstrably better to do in my career, but also working and counseling C-suite executives.

00:15:35:01 - 00:16:00:22
Steve Dennis
It's often ego that that either gets back to what we were talking about earlier, you know, keeps them from rethinking their approach to a problem. But it's also things like not recognizing that they are not the source, or I am not the source of all wisdom just because I have a corner suite, that I need to be willing to ask for help.

00:16:01:00 - 00:16:22:18
Steve Dennis
And sometimes that's because, well, one of things I share in the story is some of my own, like personal struggles about that. And it didn't help that I was too prideful, I guess, for lack of a better term, to ask for help. But it's also, you know, we have to try to understand the impact of AI. We have to understand robotics, we have to understand all sorts of forces that are that are evolving or that have become quite different.

00:16:22:20 - 00:16:49:02
Steve Dennis
And so if you're not willing to bring in different voices, people with different expertise, deal with maybe imposter syndrome where you're afraid to say, you know, and I was in that meeting. I don't know what the hell they're talking about. that really gets in the way of your success. So. So I think ego and breaking through ego, leaning on the the words of the great business strategist Taylor Swift of saying, you know, I'm the problem.

00:16:49:02 - 00:16:58:11
Steve Dennis
That's me. I think it's very foundational to, to being able to move forward and, and lead in times of turbulence.

00:16:58:17 - 00:17:13:05
Kevin Eikenberry
there's no doubt about that. And as I said, Steve, there are, as I told everyone, there are seven leaves here. We're not going to talk about all of them. but I think I have a couple I'd like us to talk about, but sure. You this what's what's one that maybe for whatever reason, you feel like you'd like to talk about today.

00:17:13:09 - 00:17:27:17
Kevin Eikenberry
Or maybe it's one that you think, is especially important that maybe you don't always get the chance to talk about, like you? Why don't you just pick one? Okay. Let's talk. How, however, is why ever it is. Yeah. And then I've got a couple others. I think we'll chat a little bit about.

00:17:27:19 - 00:17:54:10
Steve Dennis
Well, the one I think is, I'm finding that I like to talk about the most and, and maybe, I don't know that people struggle with it, because at one level, I think it's obvious. on the other hand, it's maybe the hardest thing to deal with is this idea that safe is risky and really exploring how fear, often overwhelms, what we need, what we need to do.

00:17:54:10 - 00:18:19:10
Steve Dennis
And I see this, you know, like I said, I think the obvious part is at one level is that, you know, trying to assess risk. You know, we're wired that's a I'm going to be like a temporary evolutionary biologist here. But, you know, we're we're wired, fundamentally to avoid risk. And I was very few people, you know, you have your adrenaline junkies and whatnot.

00:18:19:10 - 00:18:43:17
Steve Dennis
But for the most part, most people don't like being uncomfortable, don't like fear, feeling like they might, look stupid or foolish. most people want to progress in their career, get the bonus, etc. so there's all sorts of reasons why we're not inclined to take risks personally as well as for the teams we lead or the organizations.

00:18:43:19 - 00:19:02:05
Kevin Eikenberry
Well, before you go on, let me just say one thing and you're talking about especially back to talking about people in senior leadership. the the added piece of that and it's related to your ego point is that, man, it's that I got here and this all worked. So like we're like, lay all of what you said is true.

00:19:02:09 - 00:19:12:04
Kevin Eikenberry
But the further we move in the organization and the more success we've had, however, we wanted to find that it's adding more layers to what you're saying.

00:19:12:06 - 00:19:13:15
Steve Dennis
Yeah, there's more there's.

00:19:13:15 - 00:19:14:06
Kevin Eikenberry
More.

00:19:14:06 - 00:19:37:19
Steve Dennis
At stake. you know, the more you're moving out of your comfort zone, generally speaking, and the more successful you've been, the more is at stake. And I can tell you, I work as just a quick example. I worked with the CEO of a very large corporation who got a lot of accolades for having not turned the company around, but taken the brand to a whole new level.

00:19:38:10 - 00:20:08:22
Steve Dennis
but at the same time, what I think was becoming more and more obvious, but, you know, somewhat controversial was that some of the things that had worked so well for about a decade were not only starting to not work particularly well, they were starting to really kind of show chinks in the armor of the strategy. And so what I was trying to persuade him, not just me, but team trying to persuade him to explore some different avenues.

00:20:09:21 - 00:20:29:15
Steve Dennis
you know, he basically said to me, you're telling me my baby is ugly? first of all, so to to challenge a strategy that had gotten him a lot of accolades and been demonstrably successful, was was hard for him to get his head around. But the other thing was doing something different would potentially risk his legacy.

00:20:29:15 - 00:21:01:11
Steve Dennis
And he was not too far from retirement. So it's it's not trivial to get people to, to take on, a much more riskier way of being. But I think the other thing is, you know, we're just bad at assessing risk. Like, it's a lot. It's so much easier. I use the example in the book that, you know, we all know that not getting enough exercise and eating a terrible diet may lead to bad health outcomes, but generally speaking, those health outcomes are very far out, right?

00:21:01:11 - 00:21:02:18
Steve Dennis
So the dangers.

00:21:02:18 - 00:21:04:16
Kevin Eikenberry
Are far out. Now I was.

00:21:04:16 - 00:21:05:13
Steve Dennis
Gonna say, right.

00:21:05:15 - 00:21:06:14
Kevin Eikenberry
Yes. Right.

00:21:06:14 - 00:21:29:17
Steve Dennis
Yes. That the, as we move one day closer to death, every day, you know, it starts to be more, more challenging. But, you know, we, we, you know, in a given moment or week to week, month to month, you know, for example, I use the department store industry, which is one of my favorite things to to pick on, partially because of my experience, but partially because I think a lot of people, even if you're not in retail, can relate to it.

00:21:29:18 - 00:21:57:23
Steve Dennis
The major department stores in the US, Macy's, JCPenney, etc. obviously Sears, they have been losing market share at a pretty good clip for more than 20 years, and so it's not hard to project out where that's going to lead. And so it's not surprising that a lot of stores have closed. Not surprising. but, you know, this has been going on, as I said, for 20 years, yet none of them have done anything of any significance to to stem the tide.

00:21:58:04 - 00:22:19:05
Steve Dennis
So to not do it turns out to be the incredible, you know, very, very risky. So we've seen Sears got go away. We've seen JCPenney almost go away. We've seen plenty of brands that didn't get, put in harm's way overnight. It's actually taken quite a long time. And yet they haven't taken action.

00:22:19:05 - 00:22:27:01
Kevin Eikenberry
So I think and even the casual observer can see it. Right, right, right. Take an analyst to figure it out.

00:22:27:02 - 00:23:05:08
Steve Dennis
Well, again. So that's why I'm saying, you know, part of this book is not so much the strategy points. Like, I don't know that blue ocean strategy, is going to help with, with the issue of taking action on things that may risk extinction. Right. So so I think we have to, and, you know, again, depending upon where you are on the spectrum of challenge from disruption might be somewhat different, but I think we have to I reexamine our relationship with risk and see that the status quo, or even slow and steady change can be phenomenally risky, that it's not actually that risky in the in the scheme of what worst of us are

00:23:05:08 - 00:23:24:23
Steve Dennis
dealing with to do that AI partnership or to do some test like. And one of the other things I try to point out and I get into a little bit more, one of the later chapters is trying to figure out how to go fast, but not recklessly. Is another important thing. So, you know, it's one thing to embrace that slow and steady is very risky.

00:23:25:01 - 00:23:45:19
Steve Dennis
It's another thing then to navigate your way and say, okay, that's fine. I'm not just going to then put all money on, you know, one number in Vegas. I've got to figure out a way just to sensibly manage risk. but if you can't fundamentally embrace that, you're likely to to risk irrelevance, if not extinction, by not changing your relationship to risk.

00:23:45:19 - 00:24:06:15
Steve Dennis
I think, you know, we could there's lots of examples. We can look in the rearview mirror where that's very, very clearly true. And I think the the real call to action here is to say, well, it's not getting any better. The pace of change is speeding up. There's fewer places to hide. So if you can't see that safe is actually the riskiest thing you can do, you're probably going to find yourself in a lot of trouble if you're not there already.

00:24:06:17 - 00:24:27:06
Kevin Eikenberry
So you hinted at it, but another one of the, one of the leaps is you title it faster, faster, go go go. Right. And even in even in reading that, it's like, you know, and and yet you just hinted at this idea of faster and, and the word speed is in the is in the subtitle of the book, and we've got to figure out how to be intelligent about that.

00:24:27:11 - 00:24:31:15
Kevin Eikenberry
So can you talk about that tension there? Sure.

00:24:31:16 - 00:25:08:12
Steve Dennis
Yeah. So even just stepping back a little bit, one of the things I set up in the beginning of the book is that if you if you think in, you know, there's more dimensions to this for sure, but there's kind of two fundamental dimensions I try to play with in the book. One is actually gets back to the helpful, word in the title of your podcast, in the title of my first book, this idea of being remarkable, which is in a world that has become, where the power has flipped from, from brands or organizations to customers, where we have almost infinite choice 24 over seven access, the friction between buyer and seller

00:25:08:12 - 00:25:31:11
Steve Dennis
has been eroded. The need to be truly remarkable has never been more powerful. And by in this case, you know what I mean by remarkable is is highly differentiated, you know, leaps and bounds above the competition ideally. So there's one dimension of the value, customer value needed to deliver being really powerful, differentiated and creating that gap between the competition.

00:25:31:11 - 00:25:53:22
Steve Dennis
But the other dimension is speed. So when things are changing faster and faster, you know, even if you can deliver remarkable value, if you do it too slowly, you may find yourself, in trouble. So. So part of what I try to get into is how do you first understand the speed of disruption? How fast do you need to move?

00:25:54:00 - 00:26:19:08
Steve Dennis
But how can you actually build speed, agility, and other concepts into your business model? Because I think, you know, for many businesses, certainly in retail, where I've spent most of my time when we were in a world where physical assets were dominant, then it was just really hard to move that quickly. You know, if you look at Starbucks or Home Depot or whatever, it took a long time to build out a national chain.

00:26:19:10 - 00:26:42:10
Steve Dennis
Now we have brands like, like, and, that are, you know, Amazon is a, perhaps a more familiar example that because they are an e-commerce model, they are not as reliant on physical assets. And so they can actually grow quite quickly, in a way that wasn't so much the case in the past. So speeds become a more defining factor.

00:26:42:16 - 00:27:12:22
Steve Dennis
Agility has become a more defining factor. And so the question is, how can you build the speed and agility in your system? Now some of that is recognizing and reconfiguring your business model to be more adaptive. But some of it is really building this, this culture of of experimentation and of testing and learning and a portfolio approach. So you don't want to get to the situation where you're so desperate that you have to do kind of the moonshot or the Hail Mary kind of approach.

00:27:13:00 - 00:27:31:10
Steve Dennis
But how do you iterate, fail fast? Or, you know, some of these concepts have been around for a little while. I certainly didn't come up with them. But I think you have to really fundamentally ask yourself how can I accelerate the pace of change? How can I innovate at the speed of disruption, if not maybe even a little bit ahead?

00:27:32:00 - 00:28:02:04
Steve Dennis
and, you know, some companies are terrific at that. But when I look at the companies that have struggled, most of them, have more I well, I sometimes go into organizations when I'm consulting with them or if I'm doing a speaking gig and I'll say, you know, just tell me how things work around here. Would you say that you're more wired to say yes as an organization and or you're more wired to say no, and almost everybody can answer that question, and they know that the answer is not wired like we shouldn't say we're wired to say no.

00:28:02:04 - 00:28:16:01
Steve Dennis
It just happens to be the uncomfortable reality, because that is the defenders of the status quo. And the slow and steady mindset is the prevailing culture. and I think that's very dangerous.

00:28:16:03 - 00:28:37:07
Kevin Eikenberry
So, Steve, we've been we've been talking about loops only talked about 3 or 4 of the seven. I'm just going to read them off so everyone has them. And then I'm going to ask you a different kind of question. So so everybody the seven leaves are crusher ego wake up special not big. Start with wow think radically.

00:28:37:09 - 00:28:58:11
Kevin Eikenberry
And then we've talked about safe is risky and faster faster go go go. Here's my question. And you and I talked before we we went live where we hit we hit the button, about how this isn't really a book about retail yet and which I agree with 100%. but I don't even think it's a has to be has to only be a book.

00:28:58:14 - 00:29:24:18
Kevin Eikenberry
Even though this conversation has sort of been the very big picture sort of organizational questions, when you read those seven leaps, even if you haven't read the book yet, everybody, my observation is that there isn't just there isn't just organizational leaping. There isn't even just leaping within the organization. There's personal leaping. And yes, you mentioned this as a mindset book, which is it is.

00:29:25:00 - 00:29:35:08
Kevin Eikenberry
But talk about the I, my my language now about the about taking this these leaps personally and not just even organizationally. You know, we talk about that for a second for sure.

00:29:35:10 - 00:29:59:09
Steve Dennis
Wrap up. Well, it's it's funny that, that you mention that. So, one thing which is a little bit of a backdrop and I kind of allude to it, but I don't really talk much about this in the book, is when I was writing this, I was really trying to push myself and my publisher and, and editor were pushing me to take more personal leaps in the way I was writing it.

00:30:00:00 - 00:30:19:16
Steve Dennis
and you mentioned that it's not a very long book. Some of that is because I wanted to be less prescriptive and more inspirational. and I think that can be more effective in storytelling as opposed to more the way I wrote remarkable retail. And, you know, I was so just as an aside, and I love some of these books.

00:30:19:16 - 00:30:35:13
Steve Dennis
So I don't mean any disrespect, but when I went back and and read Good to Gray and Blue Ocean Strategy and some of these books, I'm like, oh my God, there's there's so long and there's so dense and there's so many examples. And I wonder whether that is really the thing that causes people to to make the changes.

00:30:35:13 - 00:31:02:22
Steve Dennis
So I wanted to write it in a more sort of breezy storytelling way. But, but yeah, several people have said to me that a lot of the advice in the book really can apply to, personal situations, relationship. I get asked the question, was this a book just for the C-suite? And I would say my orientation in writing it is more for those who, can drive strategy.

00:31:02:23 - 00:31:25:05
Steve Dennis
And I'm sure some people lower in the organization may go, well, I have some ideas on that, but I can't affect that. But I do think most of these leap, you know, are ego gets in the way, in 1 to 1 relationships on teams, etc. the idea of waking up has a lot more to do with kind of exploring the parameters of your ignorance, you know, what are those things that you believe to be true that maybe aren't?

00:31:25:07 - 00:31:41:21
Steve Dennis
What are things you need to learn that that applies in lots and lots of situations. I would say, special, not big is maybe a little bit more of a strategy point. Start with wow, I think we can, you know, have wow in our business model, but we can also have wow in what we deliver, working on a project.

00:31:41:21 - 00:31:48:13
Steve Dennis
Right. And thinking more expansively, thinking radically about solution, rather than just incremental.

00:31:48:13 - 00:31:49:14
Kevin Eikenberry
Change, if at all.

00:31:49:15 - 00:32:09:17
Steve Dennis
Times. A lot. And I think we're all dealing with a world that is moving ever faster. And so if I'm a, I don't know, a designer, a graphic designer, what do I need to do to be more responsive and learn more quickly and maybe put more experiments out into the world as opposed to having a more fixed mindset?

00:32:09:17 - 00:32:21:19
Steve Dennis
So, yeah, I think I think pretty much all of them have applicability to our our roles as a project manager, our roles, you know, being in romantic relationships, frankly, in some cases.

00:32:21:21 - 00:32:38:14
Kevin Eikenberry
So we're talking with Steve Dennis, the author of Leaders Leap. And and we're making him he's expanding on my observation is that there's more to this. it's not a book about retail, although there are a lot of retail examples. It's not a book for senior leaders necessarily, only, although there's a lot of news specifically written for them.

00:32:38:21 - 00:32:54:21
Kevin Eikenberry
but I do think for all of you who are listening, you will find great value in this book. Which is why I asked Steve to join us. Steve, before we finish a couple of other things, kind of shifting gears before we wrap up, my next question is, well, actually, my next my last three questions are all questions I ask everybody.

00:32:55:01 - 00:32:59:22
Kevin Eikenberry
Here we go. Here's the first one. what do you do for fun, Steve?

00:33:00:00 - 00:33:20:09
Steve Dennis
Not not enough lately, I guess. Editing of my my book and producing my podcast is probably not the most fun thing. I. I love to travel. I love, to eat. And so a lot of what I do is really getting out and experience in different cultures. I find it both fun. and, my and expanding, I guess.

00:33:20:09 - 00:33:35:02
Steve Dennis
I think it in to the degree I see myself as a creative person, I find that exploring art and music in different cultures is really, probably my main thing I need to get back to. Apparently, I need to play pickleball. That's my main thing, but I haven't I haven't taken that out. You know.

00:33:35:04 - 00:33:51:15
Kevin Eikenberry
That's starting to show. If we take the arc of this show. Since 2016, no one talked about pickleball, but now it shows up about every few weeks. Pickleball seems to show up. It should have just just recently, I think it was it was last week, actually. so, here's the other question. The only one I told you I was going to ask you.

00:33:51:16 - 00:33:53:12
Kevin Eikenberry
What are you reading these days?

00:33:53:14 - 00:34:17:04
Steve Dennis
I'm actually going back and rereading a few things, partially because I realize my memory is hazy on some of these things, and it comes up is I'm going back and reading some the Steven Pressfield work. I'm not sure how many people would know Steven Pressfield. He's, a very successful screenwriter and novelist, but he's also written a few really great books, I guess you could say, kind of personal self transformation.

00:34:17:12 - 00:34:37:07
Steve Dennis
the war of Art is, the one that kind of really brought him to fruition, where he talks about this concept of resistance, and it's really about overcoming fear. It's more specifically in the context of staring at that blank page when you're trying to write something. but it's also just kind of like your question earlier. It's kind of a sneaky book.

00:34:37:07 - 00:34:52:22
Steve Dennis
I don't know if he meant he. I know Steven a little bit, but, I don't know if he meant it this way originally. because you read it and you go, well, this isn't just for for writers or artists. This is really for anybody that's having a hard time getting out of their head and and taking those first steps to putting something out in the world.

00:34:52:22 - 00:35:13:17
Steve Dennis
So I'm going back on that. I mentioned Adam Grant's think again. which, which I read when it first came out. And like I said, I to reference that in the book. But there's there's so many just great nuggets there. And as I'm getting asked questions about about this book, I'm finding, like, I want to go back to some of these people and be able to go to that next level of detail and again, ask questions.

00:35:13:22 - 00:35:31:23
Kevin Eikenberry
Love that. And we'll have as always, we'll have links to all of those, including including, Steve's book in the in the show notes here so you can find those there. But before we go, where do you want to point people? Where can people learn more about you, connect with you, get the book, anything you want to tell us before we wrap up?

00:35:32:01 - 00:35:55:07
Steve Dennis
Sure. Well, they should be able to find the book, the hardcover, the e-book, the audible version. Pretty, pretty easily. on any of the websites, where you live to enjoy your your books. my website has information about my advisory work and, that kind of stuff. which is Stephen P Dennis. Stephen with a v the proper way to spell Stephen, I would say.

00:35:55:09 - 00:36:05:12
Steve Dennis
And, and I'm quite active on social media, I would say at this point, LinkedIn is, is probably the place where I'm most active, but also a little bit on X and Instagram and even threads.

00:36:05:13 - 00:36:07:12
Kevin Eikenberry
So here you go, Stephen.

00:36:07:12 - 00:36:08:20
Steve Dennis
You got there in a.

00:36:08:22 - 00:36:30:11
Kevin Eikenberry
dennis.com everybody. so before we go everyone, I have a question. I ask all of you who I know you can't respond, but it's an important question. And so the question that I ask all of you who are watching or listening, whether it's now or later, is now what what action are you going to take? As as now that you've consumed this conversation between Steve and I?

00:36:30:13 - 00:36:49:10
Kevin Eikenberry
And hopefully we would both hope that you would buy a copy of the book. But that's not the only thing I'm asking here. I'm saying, what nuggets did you take from this that you found interesting, that you're going to translate into action for you? Maybe something that Stephen Steve said about Safe is Risky resonated with you, and there's some action that you need to take.

00:36:49:10 - 00:37:10:01
Kevin Eikenberry
Maybe it was something. It doesn't matter what it was during our conversation, right? Which of which mindset shift, occurred for you that you needed to think more about? You need to take some action on. So those things that will make this more than just an enjoyable use of your time, but turn it into something valuable for you.

00:37:10:01 - 00:37:27:22
Kevin Eikenberry
Not just entertaining, but useful into the future. So, I hope that you will answer that question. I hope that you will, do more than just enjoy our time, but take action on what you learned. Steve, thanks for being here. Such a pleasure to have you. thank you for having me. I'm glad that we had the chance to chat about it.

00:37:27:23 - 00:37:30:04
Steve Dennis
Likewise. Thank you. I really appreciate it.

00:37:30:06 - 00:37:49:04
Kevin Eikenberry
And everybody, you know that this you've been watching and listening to an episode of the Remarkable Leadership podcast. So if you just stumble upon it, you want to stumble back, which means subscribe, whatever it is that you do, get your podcasts. and, if you liked it, tell someone else they'll like it as well. Everybody wins if you do that.

00:37:49:06 - 00:37:55:13
Kevin Eikenberry
And we'll be back next week, because every single week we're here with another episode of the Remarkable Leadership Podcast. Thanks, everybody.