The Remarkable Leadership Podcast

00:00:08:10 - 00:00:35:23
Kevin Eikenberry
There's a lot that's been written about work life balance, and there's a variety of opinions and advice on the subject. Today we will explore that idea, but through a different lens. The title of our guest book sheds a light on that difference. Today we are talking about work life well-lived. Welcome to another episode of the Remarkable Leadership Podcast, where we are helping leaders grow personally and professionally to lead more effectively, to make a bigger, positive difference for their teams, organizations and the world.

00:00:36:05 - 00:00:51:11
Kevin Eikenberry
If you are listening to this podcast in the future, you could join us live. And why wouldn't you want to do that? Because then you can ask your questions, share your ideas, and get the information sooner. Like everything, everybody wins if you do that. If you want to find out when those are happening and how you can join us.

00:00:51:11 - 00:01:13:02
Kevin Eikenberry
For those, just join our Facebook or LinkedIn groups, which are just two of the places where we do these live casts. You can go to remarkable podcast.com/linkedin or remarkable podcast.com/facebook to do that. Today's episode is brought to you by the second edition of our latest book, The Long Distance Leader Revised Rules for Remarkable Remote and Hybrid Leadership.

00:01:13:04 - 00:01:34:02
Kevin Eikenberry
If you lead a team that is distributed in any way, this book will give you new skills, insights, and the confidence to lead more effectively in this new world of work. You can learn more and order your copy at remarkable podcast.com/l d l for long distance leader. And so with that now I'm going to bring Kelly back on the stage.

00:01:34:02 - 00:01:59:11
Kevin Eikenberry
There she is. Let me introduce Kelly McCann to you and then we will dive in. She is the author. As I mentioned a minute ago, of work life well lived. The motives met. Pathway to no B.S. wellbeing at work. And she is the co-founder and CEO of the Motives Met Platform and Human Needs Assessment, which empowers people to create their best work life, work life and workplace.

00:01:59:13 - 00:02:24:01
Kevin Eikenberry
Her expertise spans quantitative research and human behavior to fostering psychological safety from guiding individuals in mind management coaching to imparting the practice of mindfulness meditation both inside and outside of work. As a researcher, she gains insights into significant parts of our lives like our values, stress, and emotions, to develop frameworks to better understand the world and ourselves so we can make positive change.

00:02:24:03 - 00:02:26:17
Kevin Eikenberry
Kelly. Welcome. Glad to have you here.

00:02:26:19 - 00:02:31:00
Kelly Mackin
Thank you. So excited to be here and chat with you today.

00:02:31:02 - 00:02:56:19
Kevin Eikenberry
So as I said, we're going to talk about this book here in just a minute. If I can get it to not look too bad in the light. But I want to start with, a little bit more about your journey in the book. You talk about your journey, and I don't really want to go through all of that, but I really do want to understand sort of how and help others understand how you got to thinking about this whole idea, which I'm going to say in general is work life balance.

00:02:56:19 - 00:03:10:13
Kevin Eikenberry
Although we're going to dive in more specifically than that. Like, how did you end up doing this? You did tell your mother when you were a kid that you eventually get to write a book, which you now have done. But tell us a little bit about the journey, a little bit. What led you to this particular book?

00:03:10:15 - 00:03:40:13
Kelly Mackin
Sure. Well, the journey really does stem all the way back from growing up and seeing my mom go through extreme ill being at work. She was in a very toxic work environment, and I looked up to my mom so much, and it was so disheartening to witness her go from, at one point, thriving at work to then complete misery at work when her company got bought out and everything changed.

00:03:40:15 - 00:04:10:10
Kelly Mackin
And unfortunately, I found myself on a similar path, also ending up in a toxic work environment where my mental, emotional and physical health took a serious nosedive and it took me really hitting some ugly lows before I woke up and got clarity and said, this isn't okay, this isn't the way work should be. And that really set me on a path to dive deeper into well-being in my life overall.

00:04:10:12 - 00:04:38:06
Kelly Mackin
And I developed such a passion for that that I started helping other people develop wellbeing in and outside of work in a multitude of different ways. So, as you would kind of mentioned, my background is in research and coaching and mindfulness, and I found that a lot of the clients I was working with, their struggles were related to their work life, whether it was how to be the best leader they want to be or dealing with toxic and work environments or difficult coworkers.

00:04:38:08 - 00:05:00:21
Kelly Mackin
And then it was at about 2017 where you know, the work wellbeing movement was becoming a thing. And my mom and I were thrilled. We were like, oh my God, people are using work and wellbeing in the same sentence. Like, this was not a thing not that long ago. So we were really pumped about that. But then we went, why is stuff still so bad?

00:05:00:23 - 00:05:23:05
Kelly Mackin
You know, why is it being still leading the way in things like stress and burnout and unhappiness so high and retention so low? Something is not working well here. And our research curiosities led us to kind of go, whoa, what the heck even is work well-being like we're talking about it, but we don't seem to have real clarity around it.

00:05:23:07 - 00:05:45:11
Kelly Mackin
So we kind of looked to the experts in secondary research and what the world was saying, and we went, oh my gosh, it's so overwhelming. And completely contradicts itself because you all have like one social media influencer telling you it's all about work life balance, but then a different ones like no, no, screw work life balance. It's all about the hustle and growing to reach your potential.

00:05:45:13 - 00:06:07:02
Kelly Mackin
You know, leaders are told all your team wants purpose and belonging, and other leaders are told no. It's all about appreciation and research is all over the place. Choosing employees for growth. Most know they want flexibility. Most know they want connection. So you go, well, what are we supposed to do with all this? We're kind of drowning in information, but starving for real wisdom.

00:06:07:02 - 00:06:13:21
Kelly Mackin
And that's what set us on our path to really dive into our own research, to get to the truth.

00:06:13:23 - 00:06:33:11
Kevin Eikenberry
Which leads me, I mean, you've started we've been using this word, this phrase well-being. And you actually used a other phrase that you use in the book a lot ill being earlier. So let's just start here. Since, Wellbeing at Work is in the subtitle of the book, what's your definition of it?

00:06:33:13 - 00:07:03:13
Kelly Mackin
The definition that we have found through a lot of research over many years is that wellbeing at work is when people's most important motives are met. And I can't, of course, dive into exactly what that means. But having that shared meaning and mindset with the people we work with, with the people that we lead, is what puts us all in a much more empowered position to create a work world where being human is really possible.

00:07:03:15 - 00:07:19:18
Kevin Eikenberry
We'll get to that shared piece in that leadership piece and in the rest of the team piece. But I want to sort of stay with ourselves for a bit. Whichever role people want to be thinking about, like most people here likely have, where leaders had at least some of the time. But we're also working. We're not just leading.

00:07:19:18 - 00:07:38:03
Kevin Eikenberry
Right. So, you know, whatever hat as you are listening or watching that you're wearing, that's when I want you to stay with. We'll come back to sort of the larger picture before we're done. But I want you to you know, you've said that and I sort of icpsr labeled this on the front end is about work life balance.

00:07:38:03 - 00:07:58:19
Kevin Eikenberry
And certainly as I looked at the book before I read it and when I made the decision, hey, we'll have Kelly on. That was where I categorized this. And and as you said, you're being a little more specific about that. So let's talk about that. Tell us a little bit more about or what's different about your approach to all of this than a lot of the other stuff that's been written?

00:07:58:21 - 00:08:23:13
Kelly Mackin
Well, we uncovered through the data is that there are 28 psychological, emotional and social needs that are at the heart of what work well-being is all about. And we call these 28 human needs motives. And we've developed this framework that makes it easy to grasp these 28 human needs, and they fall into ten overarching buckets or motive domains.

00:08:23:15 - 00:08:52:13
Kelly Mackin
So for example, in the freedom domain, there's the autonomy flexible and free expression motives. In the balance domain there's workplace harmony and a balance pace. But growth is the motive. Belonging self esteem Christie wage growth. But what our data also showed is that what matters most to you, Kevin, for you to thrive at work, to be, you know, super happy and healthy is going to be different than what I need most.

00:08:52:15 - 00:09:13:08
Kelly Mackin
So all of these motives matter. They just don't matter equally to each person or each team. So well-being is really personal, and the way the world tends to approach it is more of a one size fits all. You know, these are the top things you should want. This is the answer to work happiness. There are so many articles on the internet.

00:09:13:10 - 00:09:35:17
Kelly Mackin
This is the secret. If you get these 2 or 3 things, you know this is the answer. And our data kind of shows that's all wrong. So it's about really uncovering what matters most to you in this season. Knowing that your motives are going to change over time. They don't really change one day to the next. But as you know, you have big milestones in your work life.

00:09:35:19 - 00:09:43:06
Kelly Mackin
If you think back ten years ago, probably what you needed most to thrive is going to be a little bit different than what you need today.

00:09:43:08 - 00:09:45:09
Kevin Eikenberry
Yeah, think that's. Yeah. Go ahead. I'm sorry.

00:09:45:15 - 00:10:11:21
Kelly Mackin
Yeah. No. And I was just going to say that, you know, some people when they see our framework are like great I love all of those. I want all of those 28 motives to be thriving in a ten out of ten. But we say we'll be the bearer of bad news and, and say there's kind of this ugly truth of work well-being as well, that it's not really possible to have all these 20 needs thriving at one time.

00:10:11:22 - 00:10:35:06
Kevin Eikenberry
And, you know, 28 of anything is like, impossible. Yeah, that 28 food groups, there's not. We just like name like that's not possible. Right. So where you had here in the assessment and we can talk a little bit more about the assessment. But where you had to is to help us figure out, what our top five of the 28 are and work from there, correct?

00:10:35:08 - 00:10:58:04
Kelly Mackin
Yes, yes. Because if everything's a priority, nothing's a priority. Right. So it's like, let's start with getting those top motives healthy. And we also give you your secondary motives as well. Kind of your support motives. But that's what really puts you in that power position. Because we say, you know, there is no set hierarchy of needs. It's about figuring out what your needs hierarchy is.

00:10:58:04 - 00:11:15:22
Kelly Mackin
And it's not always really obvious because we all have blind spots. We're all hustling, just trying to get through our day. We're usually not stopping and really going, what does matter most? And hey, I have some really tough decisions or I'm trying to decide what job to take next or where I want to go next in my company.

00:11:15:22 - 00:11:29:22
Kelly Mackin
How am I going to figure that out? And by knowing your top motives, that really gives you a compass and shines a spotlight in a way that just puts you in a much more powerful position in your work life.

00:11:30:00 - 00:11:48:12
Kevin Eikenberry
So yeah, so one of the things that you talk about and, I wanted to I'm kind of going backwards now a little bit because, I think one of things that I found most interesting in the book was you had these ten things that you called the dream killers. So first of all, what do you mean by that?

00:11:48:12 - 00:12:16:08
Kevin Eikenberry
And then then I'd like you to just pick one. And maybe it's one that directly connects to what you've just been talking about or wherever you want to go with it. Because I think getting to this idea of wellbeing at work, however, we want to personally define it, it's hard, right? And it's complex. And so, you have these dream killers, which I don't mean to be a downer to our conversation, but I think it's important for us to, like, recognize that.

00:12:16:08 - 00:12:23:16
Kevin Eikenberry
So, yeah, pick one or maybe two that you might mention. And then let's talk about what do we what can we do with those things.

00:12:23:18 - 00:12:43:20
Kelly Mackin
Sure. Yeah. No, it's really important to understand what are those obstacles, because that's what allows us to get to where we want to go. I mean, there's this great quote from Marcus Aurelius that says, what stands in the way becomes the way. So I made that kind of the start of the book to say, let's look at these ten dream killers, and then we can go, this is how we're going to solve for them.

00:12:43:22 - 00:13:08:04
Kelly Mackin
And the way that we kind of think about it, it motives matter is we have what we call the attainable dream of a work life well-lived. Kind of coming back to that idea of ambitious yet realistic. And there are ten of these kind of big obstacles, one of them being we tend to take a passive and reactive approach to work wellness instead of a proactive and preventative one.

00:13:08:06 - 00:13:31:14
Kelly Mackin
But prevention is always better than cure, so we're not always being mindful of these motives at work. We're not always showing up with intention to safeguard them for ourselves and other people. And so that's one big roadblock that gets in the way. Another dream killer I'll just quickly touch on is that we don't talk about what matters most to us and others at work.

00:13:31:14 - 00:13:40:01
Kelly Mackin
If we're not communicating about this stuff, that's going to be a big problem when we're trying to meet these motives. So those are just two examples.

00:13:40:03 - 00:13:58:02
Kevin Eikenberry
So obviously, and we are talking with Kelly McCann, the author of the new book, The Work Life Well Lived. Obviously you would say, well, hey, everyone on the team should take the assessment and I can understand the value in that. And yet, if we haven't or if someone's listening to this and maybe that's what they're going to do eventually.

00:13:58:02 - 00:14:16:13
Kevin Eikenberry
But right now, what can what can people do? I actually want to read something from the book and then have you talk about this, because we're getting now at this idea of this isn't just about ourselves, but as you just said a second ago, sharing it with others. So here's what you said in the book, a sacred truth we must rally round.

00:14:16:13 - 00:14:47:03
Kevin Eikenberry
Is that, well being is co-created. It happens when individuals, workers and leaders show up for themselves and each other in meaningful ways to keep motives healthy. I want to get to the keep motives healthy part in a second. But. But even if we haven't done the assessment based on what you've already shared with us, or while we're waiting for our copy of the book to arrive, what could we be doing as a team leader or as a member of the team to get at some of that co-creation you're talking about?

00:14:47:03 - 00:14:55:23
Kevin Eikenberry
Because so often we think about all this as being something that's a that we need to do for us. You're suggesting something bigger than that?

00:14:56:01 - 00:15:20:10
Kelly Mackin
Yes. Because it's so we're so interdependent and interwoven at work that we all have such a ripple effect on one another. If you think about any of the 28 motives, whether it's flexibility or autonomy or shared culture or passion, the degree that any of those motives are going to be strong for any given person is going to be affected by everybody.

00:15:20:12 - 00:15:52:11
Kelly Mackin
So if we want the work world that we dream up, if we want to thrive in teams, if we want to live our best work life, we need one another and we have to show up for ourselves. But we have to show up for one another. And we kind of this saying that you not everybody has to give a damn in the sense that we all have to love each other all the time, but we do have to have the shared mindset that everybody deserves to have their motives healthy at work and that we play a role in that.

00:15:52:11 - 00:16:12:19
Kelly Mackin
And I don't need to be the reason someone doesn't feel they don't belong, or to be the one to stifle someone's growth or, you know, dull someone's passionate work. So it's kind of showing up with that intention and that mindset that makes a huge difference in our relationships at work.

00:16:12:21 - 00:16:19:08
Kevin Eikenberry
And so how can we as leaders lead that?

00:16:19:10 - 00:16:40:09
Kelly Mackin
Well, there's quite a few things, but one is going to be that internal reflection because as a leader, you have a huge impact on the degree that these motives are going to be strong and protected. So just looking at each of the 28 and getting really honest with yourself, which of these do you dismiss? Which of these do you not pay attention to?

00:16:40:11 - 00:17:00:09
Kelly Mackin
Which of these might be a little bit weaker on the team? A really important concept I talk about in the book is embracing motive diversity, because we tend to kind of think what we think is most important is what others would think is most important. And we don't even necessarily mean to do this, but we all hold these biases.

00:17:00:09 - 00:17:24:00
Kelly Mackin
Certain motives can be put on a pedestal and other ones can be judged or dismissed. And so kind of getting honest with where you might be lacking in this mode of diversity areas, the leader is going to be really helpful. But I would say one of the second things you could do that is so powerful is ask good questions.

00:17:24:02 - 00:17:44:23
Kelly Mackin
It is great to ask someone on your team, hey, do you love it here? Do you hate it here? Are you happy? Do you have well-being? That's great. And our research actually showed 33% of people said in the last year their their boss or manager never had that conversation with them. 31% said only once. That's what our research found.

00:17:45:01 - 00:18:02:21
Kelly Mackin
So that's a great starter. But if you ask better questions, you get better answers. So asking people on the team. But when it comes to work life harmony, are you more of an integrator or a separator and how does that manifest for you? Let's talk about it. Or hey, you know, a big company picnic we do every year.

00:18:03:00 - 00:18:30:21
Kelly Mackin
Is that actually fun? Do you find that fun? If we were going to have a budget for how we could have fun as a team, fun summative, like, what would that look like? So having really good conversations about these 20 motives is going to put you in such an empowered position as a leader. So if you can literally look at each of them and go, I'm going to come up with one question for each and ask my team about this in our next meeting.

00:18:30:21 - 00:18:37:09
Kelly Mackin
And what you will uncover will shock or surprise and inform you.

00:18:37:11 - 00:19:06:00
Kevin Eikenberry
You know, one of the one of the observations that I had, as I, as I was reviewing the the book and thinking about our conversation, is that not only, do we need to recognize the, the, the, the totality of the 28 motives, and to recognize that different people have different ones. These will float to the, to the top for different people, certainly, but that our organizational culture or even our team culture could have an impact here as well.

00:19:06:02 - 00:19:51:03
Kevin Eikenberry
Be meaning that, there may be some of these that are valued more by the culture organizationally over time, which in some cases could be good because there could be folks who are drawn to that or people who never thought that was possible, that now find that motive more enticing to them than it ever did before. And yet, if that's an opposite or intention with what someone's motives are, like, you said, unintentionally downplaying one or something else, it was just an observation that I made that this isn't just about leaders being recognizing that in others on the team or helping them find it, but how that culture plays into it.

00:19:51:05 - 00:19:53:02
Kevin Eikenberry
You want to comment on that at all?

00:19:53:04 - 00:20:24:18
Kelly Mackin
Yeah, absolutely. Well, when we talk about a people first culture, it's it's like again, as a researcher, I go, what does that mean? How do we develop a definition around that. And really people first means putting people's human needs first. And our data shows when you need satisfaction that's when you have job satisfaction. So if you want this amazing culture that people don't want to leave, it really is looking at each of these 20 needs and going, are these doing well?

00:20:24:18 - 00:20:45:03
Kelly Mackin
You know, am I creating this space for this need to thrive at work? And again, as a leader, you only have so much influence, but your job is to get other people again to come into this idea of co-creation and say, hey guys, you want a thriving culture? Guess what? It's not just on me, it's on you. How are you showing up?

00:20:45:05 - 00:21:22:12
Kelly Mackin
Are you vocalizing when your needs are met? How are you supporting each other and your motives? And that's that goes a long way with leaders because it's tough to build amazing cultures. And so often leaders are told it's all on you and it's all your responsibility. And we actually say it's not. You have a huge, of course, impact on it, but the best thing you can do is actually empower other people to create it with you, because that's the only way you really get to a place where all of the things that matter most at work are doing really, really well.

00:21:22:14 - 00:21:51:07
Kevin Eikenberry
Yeah. So, We're talking about 28 motives. We're talking about a team of seven people, eight people, 12 people, whatever. Right. And everyone's are different. And this is complex. For sure. And then, as you've already hinted, that motives that any of us might hold could change for any variety of reasons. So you're, we're layering complexity on complexity here.

00:21:51:07 - 00:22:11:14
Kevin Eikenberry
And yet your model helps us to dissect that a little bit. I understand my question is why is it that they change? Because if I'm the leader and I have gotten some handle on where people are and what those voters are, most important voters are for them? What are some of the things that might that might lead our individual motives to change?

00:22:11:14 - 00:22:19:18
Kevin Eikenberry
So if I'm a leader, I can be thinking and aware of how how I stay on this journey with my team.

00:22:19:20 - 00:22:58:07
Kelly Mackin
Sure. If you have, let's say, a kind of a big switch in your job responsibilities, like, let's say you're kind of taking on a new role on the team, you know, a month or two into that, you could you could be at a very different place than you were, you know, four months prior or, you know, even in your personal life, if someone has a kid or they have a really big issue in their family that can impact their needs, but then we find some motives are tied very closely to people's values, and some of those don't change quite as much, like, for example, autonomy and flexibility are two of my top motives, and I

00:22:58:07 - 00:23:14:12
Kelly Mackin
have taken the assessment four times. Once a year we say, is it just a good gut check in to. And whether you take the assessment or not, whether you just sit there and really reflect and go, okay, what's most important to me? Flexibility and autonomy are just tied to who I am. I'm like a freedom kind of person.

00:23:14:12 - 00:23:27:01
Kelly Mackin
I think it goes back to just my history of being in such a toxic workplace. So those just kind of have stayed the same. While my other top three motives have kind of changed year to year.

00:23:27:02 - 00:23:45:05
Kevin Eikenberry
Gotcha. So, tell us a little bit more about the assessment. Specifically, obviously there's a link to it in the book, and unfortunately, I did not get the chance to get that done before our conversation this morning. But tell us a little bit more about the assessment and how they can learn more about it.

00:23:45:07 - 00:24:03:23
Kelly Mackin
So with the book, we give you a free code to take the assessment. And that was that was so important to me that we did that. And readers really love it, because you're able to take this personal journey of, again, like, I'm thinking about this roadmap I take you through in the book, but through the lens of my top five motives.

00:24:04:01 - 00:24:33:00
Kelly Mackin
So you get a free code. It takes about 15 minutes to take the assessment, and then you automatically get your top five motives. And we give you this amazing guide to help you meet those motives as well. So we give you a summary of each of the motives. My favorite part of the report you get are these awesome motive reflection questions that get you thinking about your needs in a way you probably haven't thought about them before.

00:24:33:01 - 00:24:52:09
Kelly Mackin
Like future success is one of my top motives. One of the questions I love is, hey, how do you need to show up as your future self today to get the future that you want tomorrow? Like, how were you going to bridge that gap so it gives you really good questions, tips, different ways to kind of check in on your motive health.

00:24:52:11 - 00:25:24:03
Kelly Mackin
But one of the coolest parts that people really love is the section that walks you through how to develop a wellbeing action plan, because that's kind of the whole point of this, is to have your own personal action plan of how you're going to strengthen and protect and honor your top five motives and develop what we call your motive story, because we all have a story behind why these needs are so important to us, and which ones maybe stress us out, and which ones we feel we do really well, and where we need support.

00:25:24:03 - 00:25:47:12
Kelly Mackin
And when we share these stories with other people, that's how we connect as human. That's how they can help support us to strengthen our motives. So developing your own motive story is is really cool, and hearing people's motive stories is like one of my favorite things ever. So that's a really cool part of the report.

00:25:47:14 - 00:26:06:23
Kevin Eikenberry
Before we start to wrap up, we've been talking with Kelly McCann about her new book, life, work, Life Well-Lived. The Motives Met Pathway to No BS. Well, being at work. And so I'm going to shift the focus and ask a couple of questions, Kelly, that I ask all of our guests, and one of them I usually prep you if we have the chance to chat before we go live, which we didn't do.

00:26:06:23 - 00:26:20:16
Kevin Eikenberry
So when we get to the second question, like, if you don't have an immediate answer, it's okay, don't worry about it. And there's no pressure. Okay. But here's the first one. Should be easy. The first one. Are you ready? What do you do for fun, Kelly?

00:26:20:18 - 00:26:40:14
Kelly Mackin
Oh, so many things. So I live in San Diego. I play competitive beach volleyball. My pup also loves the beach, so we're always at the beach for a sunrise run or a sunset. And I'm also an avid boxer and reader, so I love to read. And I definitely do that quite a bit as well.

00:26:40:16 - 00:26:44:23
Kevin Eikenberry
Well, that goes to the next question. What are you reading right now, Kelly?

00:26:45:01 - 00:27:07:02
Kelly Mackin
Oh, I am reading a Ben Hardy's new book, ten X is Easier than two x. So I love all of Ben Hardy's books. He's an awesome psychologist. He's written nine books. I actually had the chance to meet him, a few years ago, and all of his books. I would I would highly recommend Be Your Future Self now is another favorite of his.

00:27:07:04 - 00:27:21:17
Kevin Eikenberry
We will put a link to that in the show notes, as well as a link, of course, to Kelly's book. But before we go, Kelly, where do you want to point people? What are the, where can you where do people. Where can people learn more about your work? Where can people get a copy of the book?

00:27:21:17 - 00:27:25:15
Kevin Eikenberry
All of those things. I'll hold up the book while you do that.

00:27:25:17 - 00:27:45:20
Kelly Mackin
Our website is motive some at dot com, so you can check out. We have lots of great stuff on there. Research, different reports, articles. You can sign up for our newsletter where we send out a lot of great stuff. And we also have information about the assessment on there as well. I'm very active on LinkedIn as well is Instagram.

00:27:45:20 - 00:27:48:10
Kelly Mackin
So you can find me there as well.

00:27:48:12 - 00:28:08:14
Kevin Eikenberry
There you have it. So before we go, everybody in before I think Kelly officially for being here. I'll ask you all the question I ask you every single episode. Kelly was talking about the importance of powerful questions. I believe this is one of the most powerful questions. And as you've been with us now for about 30 minutes, the question is, now what?

00:28:08:16 - 00:28:44:07
Kevin Eikenberry
What are you going to do as a result of this? Like, what action are you going to take? Maybe you've been challenged to ask better questions. Maybe you've been, challenged to think about how other people's motives are different than our own and stop making an assumption, unintentional assumption about that. Maybe, you want to learn a little bit more about these dream killers and how you can deal with those, like, I don't know what it is for you, but what I do know is that if you don't ask that question, and if you don't answer that question, then the value that you got out of the last 30 minutes will be greatly reduced compared

00:28:44:07 - 00:28:54:23
Kevin Eikenberry
to if you take some action on what you got. So Kelly, thanks again for being here. It's a pleasure to have you. Thanks for sharing your wisdom and your time with us today.

00:28:55:01 - 00:28:58:21
Kelly Mackin
Thank you so much. I really enjoyed our conversation. This was great.

00:28:58:23 - 00:29:17:02
Kevin Eikenberry
So everybody, if you enjoyed this, you'll want to be back next week. And if you found this useful, guess what someone else you know will as well. So invite them to join you. And the next episode over of this episode of the Remarkable Leadership Podcast. And wherever you are listening to this, make sure you're subscribed so you don't miss any future episodes.

00:29:17:02 - 00:29:22:22
Kevin Eikenberry
We'll be back next week, as always, with another episode of the Remarkable Leadership Podcast. Thanks everybody.