The Remarkable Leadership Podcast

00:00:08:03 - 00:00:28:23
Kevin Eikenberry
In case you didn't know, it, you deceive yourself. There are plenty of reasons it happens. And when we do it as a leader, it can create plenty of problems. Today we're talking with an expert part of a team that created the latest edition of the long time best selling book on this subject. Stick around. You will learn some things about yourself.

00:00:29:01 - 00:00:56:05
Kevin Eikenberry
How to become a better leader. And as I already said, perhaps when a copy of this book. Welcome to another episode of the Remarkable Leadership Podcast, where we are helping leaders grow personally and professionally to lead more effectively and make a bigger, positive difference for their teams, their organizations and the world. If you are listening to this podcast, you can join us in the future for live episodes because all of them are live streamed before they are put on the podcast stream.

00:00:56:09 - 00:01:22:11
Kevin Eikenberry
And so if you want to find out when those are happening so you can get involved, I highly encourage that. And the way to do that is to join either our Facebook or LinkedIn groups, where you can get all of that info on a regular basis. That's not the only two places that the show is live, but it is two of those places you can go to remarkable podcast.com/facebook or remarkable podcast.com/linkedin to learn more.

00:01:22:12 - 00:01:47:22
Kevin Eikenberry
Get signed up there. Find out when we're doing these live so you can join us then. I hope you'll do that now. Today's episode is brought to you by the second edition of our new book, The Long Distance Leader Revised Rules for Remarkable Remote and Hybrid Leadership. If you lead a team that is distributed in any way, this book will give you the new skills, insights, and confidence you need to lead more effectively in this new and ever changing world of work.

00:01:48:00 - 00:02:10:06
Kevin Eikenberry
You can learn more and order your copy now at remarkable podcast.com/ldl. And when you do that remarkable podcast.com/ldl, you get some special gifts. Just for ordering your copy now. Hope you'll do all of that. Now, without any further ado, let me bring in my guest. Here she is. Her name is Victor Victoria Trammell. She said it's Trammell, Kevin.

00:02:10:06 - 00:02:34:12
Kevin Eikenberry
Not a fancy way of saying it. So here we go. Victoria Trammell is a seasoned facilitator and leadership consultant who brings almost two decades of experience supporting the intelligence community to her work with harbinger, her expertise in strategic planning, employee engagement and leadership development and process improvement were sharpened in the fast paced and ever dynamic world of human intelligence operations.

00:02:34:14 - 00:03:13:08
Kevin Eikenberry
We're not going to talk about that. And it's not like the movies, though I'm sure. She began her career in joint counterterrorism operations. She, continued to embrace opportunities for learning and people development through leadership roles across the intelligence community, from small niche operational programs to enterprise wide software development programs to corporate culture initiatives. Most recently, as a program manager of 65 employees at Leidos, she had the opportunity to establish and develop her program leadership team under the guidance and coaching of the Harbinger Institute, which nature unit where she now works.

00:03:13:08 - 00:03:27:21
Kevin Eikenberry
She is fluent in French. There'll be no French today, Victoria, because I'm not and speaks a couple of other languages, though most of her vocabulary revolves around eating. That's a different podcast as well. Victoria, welcome. So glad.

00:03:27:23 - 00:03:29:06
Victoria Trammel
Thank you so much for having me.

00:03:29:08 - 00:03:53:00
Kevin Eikenberry
It's a pleasure to have you here. So this is a different kind of book for a variety of reasons. And this is a little bit different kind of interview for a number of reasons. Usually, a book at the bottom has a name of a person or a couple of people. And this one, as with the other Harbinger Institute books, it just says by the Harbinger Institute.

00:03:53:00 - 00:04:10:14
Kevin Eikenberry
So, I want to just start there. We'll get to the book itself, and I've got a bunch of questions about that. But before we even get there, sort of what's your connection to the book and why do I, why do I why do we get the pleasure of hearing from you?

00:04:10:16 - 00:04:25:08
Victoria Trammel
Yeah. So I first encountered this book, a little over ten years ago. And it was something that was given to me by a colleague of mine, and he had read it and had this. I mean, he came in lights in his eyes, the whole thing, he would I mean, he was jazzed up. And I went cool.

00:04:25:10 - 00:04:37:04
Victoria Trammel
I'm not a big reader. So it's sat on my desk for the better part of probably six weeks. It made a fantastic coaster. And finally I had a long weekend and I said, okay, maybe I'll maybe I'll give it a shot.

00:04:37:04 - 00:04:39:15
Kevin Eikenberry
Not exactly a thick one, let's face it.

00:04:39:17 - 00:04:42:23
Victoria Trammel
But, you know, it was effective. And, so I came.

00:04:42:23 - 00:04:45:11
Kevin Eikenberry
What I mean is like, it shouldn't be that heavy of a lift. Let's.

00:04:45:14 - 00:05:01:15
Victoria Trammel
I know, but see, listen, I'm. I'm all about making mountains out of molehills. And my leadership journey was a lot of those things gone wrong. But all that to say, in my head, it was a big lift. So I read this book finally over a long weekend. And you were right. It did not take very long at all.

00:05:01:16 - 00:05:17:22
Victoria Trammel
And I came in the following workday and I looked at him and I was like, are you trying to tell me something? And he was like, well, what do you mean? I was like, I feel one like I have been spectacularly failing everybody that I've been leading. I feel like I'm deficient on more levels than I ever thought possible.

00:05:18:02 - 00:05:32:06
Victoria Trammel
And all I want to do is figure out how I can do better by everybody, right? Home life, work life, it. And it was one of those, I don't know if I've ever read a book where I have walked away going, wow, I got a lot I can work on.

00:05:32:08 - 00:05:52:23
Kevin Eikenberry
We are talking about the book Leadership and Self-deception The Secret to Transforming Relationships and Unleashing Results. If you look at this carefully, which you all can't see, but I can't. It's the fourth edition. This has been around a long time. As you said, it's now in its fourth edition. More about that in a second. But before that, like, why do you think?

00:05:52:23 - 00:06:11:20
Kevin Eikenberry
I mean, obviously it's cool because you had an experience with the book as a reader before you had more involvement in the writing of the next edition or of this edition? I'm curious from your perspective and even from the harbinger perspective, why has the book been so successful? 3 million copies, like why has it been so successful?

00:06:11:22 - 00:06:36:18
Victoria Trammel
That's an interesting question. And I think, at least from my perspective, I think a lot of times when I read leadership books, it was very prescriptive. Right? Do a, do B, do C, then you can expect a D is your result. And the problem with that is a lot of times those formulas don't fit into every situation. And the thing that I think that this book invites is us looking at ways that we've been self deceived.

00:06:36:18 - 00:07:12:13
Victoria Trammel
And I'll talk a little bit about what that means, but ways that we've been self deceived and how that then can affect our leadership, how that then skews the information that we're taking in and how that then skews our decision making progress to ultimately not bring us to achieve the objectives that we want as an organization. And so because of that, this is one of those where I feel like it can apply in any situation, whether you are, you know, line contributor, brand new in the career, whether you're a seasoned CEO, whether you're, you know, engaging with your family on this content, like, all of this can be applied because really, this is

00:07:12:13 - 00:07:17:10
Victoria Trammel
about relationships between humans. And it's talking about it in that context.

00:07:17:12 - 00:07:32:05
Kevin Eikenberry
So I want to get to that when we talk about self-deception in a second. But I've got one more sort of inside baseball question, because people that there are people I mean, lots of people have read this book. It's been around a long time. And this is the fourth edition, and it's a major rewrite to the book.

00:07:32:11 - 00:07:44:08
Kevin Eikenberry
So why I won't ask the why of fourth edition, because I sort of know that. So why? Why change it so much? Why the major rewrite?

00:07:44:10 - 00:08:07:00
Victoria Trammel
Well, I mean, I would say that the core principles are the same, right? However, the context in which we wrapped it is more relevant to the workplace now. So for example, we introduced a female protagonist in this because women are in the workplace and we look at it from a number of different lenses. Right? We we needed to have a work culture in the book that was representative of work cultures that were seen in the world, in industry.

00:08:07:02 - 00:08:24:15
Victoria Trammel
And there was a way that we had explored this topic of self-deception previously that looked at it almost exclusively from the perspective of, I think that I'm better than the people that I work with. Well, the reality of the situation is there's a whole number of facets to the way that we feel.

00:08:24:15 - 00:08:25:20
Kevin Eikenberry
The only way we deceive ourselves.

00:08:25:22 - 00:08:41:07
Victoria Trammel
Absolutely. Because I would argue that for me, in the certainly in the beginning of my career, it was like I have no business being in this job because I don't know what I'm doing right. And certainly these people know better than me, and I should just keep quiet, right? So that's a way of me almost viewing myself as less than others.

00:08:41:12 - 00:08:50:10
Victoria Trammel
And so we explore that now in this new version, because we really do need to be able to look at this from all facets to ensure that everybody is able to see themself in this book.

00:08:50:11 - 00:09:09:07
Kevin Eikenberry
So I've waited long enough. I've I've held you back long enough. That was exactly what, you guys mean in the book with that phrase, like what? What do you mean by self-deception? And give us and you gave us one example, but give us another example or two of what it means.

00:09:09:09 - 00:09:34:05
Victoria Trammel
Yeah. So self-deception is really the idea that there is a truth that I am either actively ignoring or have created such a construct that I'm not aware of it, and I'm certainly not admitting that I might be part of the problem. And the example I'll give you in my last position, I was the type of leader who wanted to be seen as somebody who took care of her people.

00:09:34:07 - 00:09:56:14
Victoria Trammel
I was the type of leader who looked out for, cared for, you know, basically wrapped them in the loving arms of protection, of my leadership. And so because of that, I was doing certain things that ignored what my people actually needed. So, for example, my first line leaders, would come and say, hey, I've got a question about this HR policy.

00:09:56:14 - 00:10:10:11
Victoria Trammel
It really doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. I'm not really sure what I'm supposed to do next. I would say, you know what, I got it. I'll take care of that for you. I'll go handle it. You just keep doing what you need to do. In my head, I was being a really helpful leader. Yeah.

00:10:10:11 - 00:10:30:00
Victoria Trammel
No. Great. I'm the best. Kevin, I don't want you, you know, but I was being a really great leader. Now, the problem was. And what I didn't realize until later was that I'm robbing them of opportunity to learn. I'm robbing then of the of an opportunity to grow. And I'm taking accountability and responsibility and ownership of that from them.

00:10:30:05 - 00:10:53:19
Victoria Trammel
So really, if I'm saying that I'm the type of person who cares about the people she's leading and I care about growing and developing them, I'm acting in a way completely contradictory to what I'm saying I want. And so that's really what self-deception is, right? I'm refusing to acknowledge that I am contributing to this problem, inhibiting my people from growing, and instead I'm choosing to only focus on the part that serves my self view.

00:10:54:00 - 00:11:01:10
Victoria Trammel
I view myself as the type of person who cares about the people she's leading, and I take care of them. So that's how I do that.

00:11:01:11 - 00:11:28:04
Kevin Eikenberry
And that's. And you, you just bumped into. The next thing I want to talk about, which is how is this connected to our identity. Right. You actually framed your example as this is how I see myself, which is part of how you became blinded or, or this became a blind spot for you. But say a little bit more about the connection between self-deception, where you might be actively trying to avoid what's happening here.

00:11:28:06 - 00:11:30:16
Kevin Eikenberry
And how does that connect with our identity?

00:11:30:18 - 00:11:59:23
Victoria Trammel
Yeah. Because really, when I become self deceived, I, I adopt what we call an inward mindset. And as part of that, I start to see my self and others in a distorted way. And I create these self images or these self views that I believe are characteristic of me. And I feel like the phrase that I hear so often when we're working with clients, when this is kind of like my first inkling of like, maybe we need to explore this is I'm the type of leader who, right?

00:12:00:04 - 00:12:23:05
Victoria Trammel
I'm the type of leader who cares about their people. I'm the type of leader who's fair. I'm the type of leader who's compassionate. I'm the type of leader who holds people to really high expectations. Those can, if we're not careful, become these self deceived self views. Right. They become characteristic of us. And that then becomes the most important thing to protect.

00:12:23:07 - 00:12:44:03
Victoria Trammel
I will search for justification, to reinforce this identity of myself that I've created, and I'll do so at the expense of everything else of my people, of the objectives we're trying to achieve, even of my own happiness. Like all of it, it is far more for me to be right than for me to get it right. And that's because it's that identity I got to protect.

00:12:44:03 - 00:13:08:05
Kevin Eikenberry
And it's not. It's all of that, and I think it's actually and that's the that's that's the worst part of it. If you want to more, there's more. There's more to it than that too, because, from my perspective, that once we have an identity, whatever, whatever we define it as, that's how we view the world, right? However we view the world then impacts our, decisions and our behaviors.

00:13:08:05 - 00:13:33:21
Kevin Eikenberry
Just like you said before, I'm the kind of leader that holds people close, takes care of them, likes them from out of harm's way. So that then then I look at everything through the lens of I got to take care of my people, right? As opposed to something that might be broader or different based on the context and so to me, the other thing that I always think, and so I love your thoughts on this, about this whole thing about identity and the way you described it is fantastic.

00:13:33:23 - 00:13:58:07
Kevin Eikenberry
But I think it can be more pervasive even than that. And that is that if we've done a leadership style assessment or if we've done a strengthsfinder, or if we've done a Myers-Briggs or a disc, like I'm not leaving anybody out here, like I'm just go like, and my, my point is that and I'm also not saying there's anything wrong with those things except they put us on a slippery slope.

00:13:58:08 - 00:14:13:04
Kevin Eikenberry
Well, I am an X or well, I have these strengths or and it leads, it leads us to potentially to identity. And then can roll us down this hill that you've just described. Agree. Disagree.

00:14:13:05 - 00:14:42:13
Victoria Trammel
No, I, I think you're spot on because I think any time ultimately like we talk about it in that any data can be consumed for one of two purposes. Right. Well there's more than two purposes. But for the sake of this argument. Right. One is this is information that I can use to be part of a larger aggregate of information that will help shape a decision, or this is information that I'm going to take, and I will part and parcel to feed the justification that I need in order to serve my purpose.

00:14:42:13 - 00:14:53:04
Victoria Trammel
Right. So in the examples that you were talking about with the personality assessments, it's like, okay, well, I'm a D in the risk assessment. Therefore that's why I come across really like really harsh, right? I'm really.

00:14:53:04 - 00:14:58:01
Kevin Eikenberry
I really don't think you are by the way I on the side I know I'm.

00:14:58:03 - 00:15:22:23
Victoria Trammel
For example right. It's very easy to fall back on that as justification for why I behave the way that I do, when instead it's a data point that might inform our way of processing information, but it doesn't provide the justification for why we behave the way that we do. And the why. I mean, really, if you get down to it, why we like, respond to others in the way that we do, because that's really what this is about, right?

00:15:22:23 - 00:15:36:13
Victoria Trammel
It's it's the way that we are interacting and the relationships that we're forming because we are in relationship to everyone, whether whether we want to be or not. Right. Even the people that are, you know, working at the grocery store or working at the gas station, we are in relationship with them.

00:15:36:14 - 00:15:58:19
Kevin Eikenberry
So it's interesting because if you're watching, you will note that I actually have that to put on the screen as well. So and I said the relationship to relationships, because everything we've been talking about so far, I mean, you just open that door but okay. Leadership and self-deception. But then you say here's the secret to transforming relationships.

00:15:59:00 - 00:16:21:10
Kevin Eikenberry
So how how do we take this, this thing that we do to ourselves to self deceive ourselves even if, even if it's not intentional? How does that how is that connected to our ability to have the kinds of working relationships we need to be successful?

00:16:21:12 - 00:16:41:22
Victoria Trammel
Yeah, it's I think the, the start of all of it. And I think the thing where I struggled most, if I'm being honest in terms of this journey, because we talk a lot about, you know, being outward and or or, you know, seeing others as people, right? Versus being inward and self to see we're almost as a binary state.

00:16:41:22 - 00:16:49:02
Victoria Trammel
But the reality is it's it's far more like a slide rule. Right? Because I can be all over the map. But so all that to say.

00:16:49:07 - 00:16:51:09
Kevin Eikenberry
Even.

00:16:51:11 - 00:17:15:04
Victoria Trammel
In the same conversation, Kevin, I could be inward and outward in the same conversation. I've done it because I'm just that talented at being inward. But you know, all that to say, you know, when I started this process of becoming more aware of my own self-deception and my own inward tendencies, a lot of what I was trying to work through is like, okay, how do I how do I even start that process?

00:17:15:04 - 00:17:37:17
Victoria Trammel
Like, how do I even start trying to, like, break down this image of myself that I've constructed? And a lot of it, it's as simple as getting curious and it's it's just, how have I made things harder? That was the question I had to ask my leaders, and that was how I figured out by me taking on these H.R duties that they were asking about.

00:17:37:19 - 00:17:57:12
Victoria Trammel
I was making their career development harder. And so it was just, how am I making things harder? Or have I been part of the problem and how can I help? Right. None of that. And I think a lot of times the the misconception is that in order to be in relationship with others and productive relationship, it requires this deep vulnerability.

00:17:57:14 - 00:18:11:23
Victoria Trammel
And I don't know that I necessarily agree. I think that there is an element to which vulnerability can help, but asking how have I been a problem? Or how have I been unhelpful? And how can I be more helpful in the future? Like that's that's really concrete and it's just curious because in that.

00:18:11:23 - 00:18:32:07
Kevin Eikenberry
Yeah, yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah. But let's be, let's be honest, I mean, I don't disagree with you and yet you, there's a level of vulnerability that's required to even be willing to ask that question, right. To to say, I don't know what they're going to say. And I don't know if I'm going to like what their answer to that is.

00:18:32:07 - 00:18:57:17
Kevin Eikenberry
Right? I mean, there's there's there's 30 reasons why that. Sure. As leaders, we don't ask for feedback. As humans, we don't ask for feedback. You've got you've given us a couple of really very specific questions we could use that are fundamentally a way to get feedback, to help us see what we can't see. Right? Right. Or to see to your other point, to see the results of the choices that we've made, even if that wasn't our intention.

00:18:57:19 - 00:19:17:17
Kevin Eikenberry
Right? Yeah. Which is I think that the, the, the heart of this whole conversation. So yeah, we can say and you know, in, in times working with leaders long before you were doing that because it's clear to me that you're younger than me. I can tell you that there was a time when I was doing this work when we never, you know, one use the word vulnerability.

00:19:17:19 - 00:19:42:02
Kevin Eikenberry
Right. Or being vulnerable. I mean, it didn't mean that it didn't matter then, but we didn't think about it that way. So I hear your point that, maybe the, the vulnerability word gets overplayed. A little. But we have to be aware that for a lot of people that are listening, just asking that question, what am I doing that's making it harder?

00:19:42:02 - 00:19:54:14
Kevin Eikenberry
What am I doing that's getting in your way? What am I doing that is making things difficult for you? Like we have to be willing to listen to that answer. And many people aren't.

00:19:54:16 - 00:20:10:06
Victoria Trammel
That's fair. I mean, and I think that there's a way that you can almost even bring it up a level. Right. Like, how does somebody in my role make your job harder? Right. It's not about me. Then at that point, or even you could take it even a step further back. Maybe it's no longer about that relation itself, but just getting curious about the other person.

00:20:10:06 - 00:20:28:10
Victoria Trammel
Like what are you trying to work on? Like what are the things getting in your way? What are the challenges that you're experiencing? What are you hoping to accomplish? What are those future goals that you have? Right. Because in that inherently you're going to start to see the humanity of that other person, which will exactly start to break down some of that self-deception.

00:20:28:12 - 00:20:52:00
Kevin Eikenberry
Yeah. We were talking with Victoria Trammell, one of the one of the folks involved in the writing of and the and the teaching of the book leadership and self-deception, now in its fourth edition. And so we've talked about a number of these things. Why, why? And you said this at the beginning, to which I would agree that we could apply these ideas in any part of our lives.

00:20:52:02 - 00:21:00:06
Kevin Eikenberry
What why is it so specifically important for us to understand this when we're leaders?

00:21:00:08 - 00:21:32:15
Victoria Trammel
Oh, they're the ripple effect of leadership I think is often. Not I don't know if it's necessarily underplayed, but I think that sometimes we don't even necessarily grasp how much influence and impact we have as leaders. I think it can be generational. Like, I think back to talking to my dad about leaders that he had that shaped the way that he led his team, that then shaped the way that I became a leader of my own right.

00:21:32:15 - 00:21:55:08
Victoria Trammel
Like it is tremendous. The impact that we have and specifically around the future. Right. A lot of times we can get bogged down in what I like to call tactical leadership, right. How do we get these objectives done in this frame for this week, for this, whatever. And we miss the possibilities when we develop the capacity in others, right?

00:21:55:08 - 00:22:23:18
Victoria Trammel
When we develop, when we become leaders of leaders and we're able to do this like it's just I think that's the part that that always sits so deep when I think about the work that we do at the Harbinger Institute is that this has long lasting impact, and it can transform the way that entire organizations function. I mean, we're talking culture shifts on a tremendous level that has lasting impact.

00:22:23:20 - 00:22:45:02
Kevin Eikenberry
So, other than, of course, the short answer to this is Kevin, everyone should buy a copy of the book. Like I understand the facts, but beyond that, my question would be based on this stuff. We've been talking about a a Victoria, what advice would you have to someone who's listening to us right now in terms of what they should do first?

00:22:45:03 - 00:23:04:15
Victoria Trammel
I think, you know, we talk a lot about mindset at the Harbinger Institute and how it is at the core of everything. When we talk, any kind of change, behavior change, culture change, all of anything we want to see, when we want to see a different result mindset is at its foundation. And the best thing we can do is start to see people.

00:23:04:16 - 00:23:41:13
Victoria Trammel
And so if that first step is seeing others as people who have needs, objectives and challenges who matter like I matter, getting curious about them like it? It is. I don't want to make it sound like it's, you know, magical fairy dust that we sprinkle over and all of a sudden everything's rainbow and sunshine. But there is tremendous power and the understanding of another human being's objectives and knowing what the, you know, the headwinds and tailwinds that they're facing, the the objectives that they're trying to achieve, the challenges that they're running into, getting curious about that, I would say would be step one.

00:23:41:13 - 00:23:43:00
Victoria Trammel
Just get curious.

00:23:43:02 - 00:23:57:11
Kevin Eikenberry
It's a really good place to start. I have to say that on that specific note that, a group that I was with this week, one of the questions they asked, you've been asked this question. I've been asked this question 100 times. Like, how do I manage up Kevin? I don't even love the phrase, but that's what everyone uses.

00:23:57:11 - 00:24:22:14
Kevin Eikenberry
So we're saying that, right? How do I manage up? In other words, how do I influence without positional power? Fundamentally is the question. And I my answer is exactly what you just said, like I need if I can you understand their perspective? Can you understand what their goals and objectives are? And if you can do those things, or when you do those things, you set yourself up to be far more influential with them because you can tie what you want to talk about.

00:24:22:14 - 00:24:33:18
Kevin Eikenberry
You can tie your concerns, you can tie your, ideas to their objectives, which is like opening the magic door, if you will.

00:24:33:20 - 00:24:44:18
Victoria Trammel
Absolutely. Because, I mean, thinking as a leader, when I've had my direct reports come to me and say, hey, I know this is a really big thing that you're working on right now, and I think that this might be helpful for you to achieve your objective.

00:24:44:20 - 00:24:45:19
Kevin Eikenberry
And you're all ears.

00:24:46:00 - 00:25:01:20
Victoria Trammel
Unlike, say, I'm sorry. What, like, absolutely. Game on. Let's go. Let's do this. I mean, it's just it's such a great feeling. And I think, you know, absolutely to your point, it's it's a huge way to wield influence.

00:25:01:22 - 00:25:09:07
Kevin Eikenberry
Is there anything I didn't ask that you wish I would have?

00:25:09:09 - 00:25:19:05
Victoria Trammel
I don't know. I think you know, I think, yeah, you pointed everybody at our book, which I think is a great, great way to do it. But.

00:25:19:07 - 00:25:21:23
Kevin Eikenberry
You know, I hear it's at some level. Right. So.

00:25:21:23 - 00:25:50:07
Victoria Trammel
Yeah. Well, absolutely. But I mean, I think, you know, a lot of times I get asked like, what's my greatest takeaway? And, you know, working with clients and having been able to do this work and be a practitioner of it for, you know, 11 years at this point. And I think that what I have seen and what I have experienced is that even the most genuine altruistic motivations can still be shrouded in self-deception.

00:25:50:09 - 00:25:58:07
Victoria Trammel
It does not mean that you have to be a terrible, toxic leader to be self deceived, you know?

00:25:58:09 - 00:26:15:09
Kevin Eikenberry
And oftentimes, even when our intent is pure, there are unintended consequences, right? Yeah. So I'm going to shift gears before we finish, and I'm going to ask you, Victoria, what you do for fun.

00:26:15:11 - 00:26:18:03
Victoria Trammel
So for fun.

00:26:18:05 - 00:26:20:05
Kevin Eikenberry
It must be involve food. That's what you said to start with.

00:26:20:05 - 00:26:46:05
Victoria Trammel
Oh, absolutely. You know, it does. Come on. Yeah. No, we we're a big food family. And it's not that we necessarily need the, you know, five star Michelin restaurants we like to find, like little hole in the wall restaurants and kind of get in with the locals wherever we're going, whether it's, you know, in the US or overseas, that's kind of our our favorite way to experience the local culture is to just go find some little hole in the wall and get to know the people.

00:26:46:07 - 00:27:06:05
Victoria Trammel
My husband is he he is a practitioner of this work without having been an expert in this work, because he is one he can get curious about people in, in the most genuine, natural ways. Like it's just it's great to watch. And so because of that, we do a lot of eating. That's our mechanism for getting curious about people.

00:27:06:07 - 00:27:13:21
Victoria Trammel
And then we do a lot on the music front in our household. So dance, music, concerts, all kinds of stuff.

00:27:13:23 - 00:27:24:01
Kevin Eikenberry
Perfect. The only thing you knew, the only thing you knew for sure I would ask you is this question, what are you reading these days? Since and because I didn't know at the time that you you're going to say, well, I didn't used to ever read, so.

00:27:24:01 - 00:27:26:14
Victoria Trammel
I don't know I it I've gotten better.

00:27:26:16 - 00:27:27:05
Kevin Eikenberry
As I've gotten.

00:27:27:05 - 00:27:52:05
Victoria Trammel
Older, I've gotten better. It was always tied too much to college and like forced reading in my brain. But I've gotten a lot better about it. I'm actually getting ready to start a book, called Hunt Gather Parent, and it was recommended to me by one of my colleagues at harbinger, because it's really looking at this in the context of parenting and, and how we can look at children as people and what the effect is in terms of how they operate in society.

00:27:52:05 - 00:28:04:23
Victoria Trammel
So I'm I'm excited to get started on it. Because I think it's it'll be really interesting to look at it through that context. As a mom, I'm I'm always I'm all ears for ideas on parenting hunt.

00:28:04:23 - 00:28:24:01
Kevin Eikenberry
Yeah. The parent the the, all the the details for that will be in the show notes as well as all the details about leadership and self-deception. The fourth edition, revised and updated. Here it is. Where do you want to point people, Victoria? Where? Where can people learn more about you, about the institute, about the work, where you want to point people?

00:28:24:03 - 00:28:47:04
Victoria Trammel
Yeah. So our intercom is a great place to start. Our website, we've got all of our information on there in terms of the research that we've done regarding this topic, the different public events that we have, the solutions, all that kind of stuff where you can find us. And then LinkedIn is another great option. The Adventure Institute is on LinkedIn, and we've got a lot of content flowing through there about different topics we've been discussing and different, you know, forums.

00:28:47:04 - 00:28:50:05
Victoria Trammel
We've been holding all kinds, all kinds of good stuff.

00:28:50:06 - 00:29:14:13
Kevin Eikenberry
Harbinger.com or Harbinger Institute on LinkedIn. Victoria, before we go, I've got a question I want to ask everybody else. The question I ask you all every single week. And it's simply this. Now what what action will you take as a result of having been here? What idea did you hear that you will now translate into an action?

00:29:14:18 - 00:29:32:14
Kevin Eikenberry
What action will you take as a result of being here? Because let's face it, if you don't, if you thought, oh, this was interesting or that was I'm curious about that, but you don't do anything more than that. If you just finish the podcast and finish your exercise and don't take anything else from it, then it's limited in its value.

00:29:32:19 - 00:29:51:03
Kevin Eikenberry
On the other hand, if you ask yourself that question now, what what am I going to do with what I just heard? If you do that, you get far more from this than you would otherwise hope. You'll do that, and I hope you'll be back with us again next week for another episode of the Remarkable Leadership Podcast. Which means you need to come back.

00:29:51:03 - 00:30:03:18
Kevin Eikenberry
Which means if you're not you, you subscribe wherever it is that you get your podcasts, make sure you come back. And if you love this as much as I think you did, I hope you invite someone else to listen to this episode as well. Thanks so much for being here. We'll see you next week.