The Remarkable Leadership Podcast

00:00:08:18 - 00:00:37:10
Kevin Eikenberry
Wherever you sit as a leader, you have a boss, and sometimes communicating with them, given the power and positional differences, can be hard. That's why I'm excited for you about the conversation that is about to begin. Welcome to another episode of the Remarkable Leadership Podcast, where we are helping leaders grow personally and professionally early to lead more effectively and make a bigger, positive difference for their teams, organizations and the world.

00:00:37:12 - 00:01:03:08
Kevin Eikenberry
If you are listening to this podcast, you could join us in the future. Live on your favorite social channel. You can find out how to do that. And when we do those live sessions by joining our Facebook or LinkedIn groups. Just go to remarkable podcast.com/facebook or remarkable podcast.com/linkedin to do that. And today's episode is brought to you by my latest book, Flexible Leadership.

00:01:03:09 - 00:01:23:09
Kevin Eikenberry
UN, excuse me? Navigate uncertainty and lead with confidence. It's time to realize that styles can get in our way, and that following our strengths might not always be the best approach in a world that is more complex and uncertain than ever. Leaders need a new perspective, a new set of tools to create the great results for their organizations and team members.

00:01:23:11 - 00:01:45:20
Kevin Eikenberry
That's where flexible leadership comes in. That's what it provides you. Learn more and order your copy today at Remarkable podcast.com/flexible. And after all of that I'm going to bring in my guest. We did not have a chance to chat ahead of time, but here she is now. Let me introduce her and then we will dive in. She is Melody Wilding.

00:01:45:20 - 00:02:08:07
Kevin Eikenberry
She's a professor of human behavior at Hunter College, where she was recently named one of Insider's most innovative career coaches. She is the author of Managing Up How to Get What You Need from the People in Charge and Trust Yourself, her previous book, for which she was also on this podcast. Her background as a therapist and emotions researcher informs her unique approach.

00:02:08:09 - 00:02:16:16
Kevin Eikenberry
Weaving evidence based neuroscience and psychology with professional development. Melody. Welcome back to the Remarkable Leadership Podcast.

00:02:16:18 - 00:02:18:23
Melody Wilding
Great to see you. Thanks for having me again.

00:02:19:01 - 00:02:39:05
Kevin Eikenberry
I'm happy to have you. We've got the book. I'm excited to talk about it with you. And, so let's just start here. What's the journey a little bit more about your journey that gets you to doing this kind of work, and then and then sort of from there into why this particular book?

00:02:39:07 - 00:03:05:20
Melody Wilding
Yeah, my background is as a therapist and in human behavior, I teach in behavior at, graduate school here in New York. And what really started to strike me is that, yes, we talk about leadership and management skills. I love the title of your book, Flexible Leadership. I think we'll get into a bit of that today, because that certainly factors into how you manage up and show up.

00:03:05:22 - 00:03:33:20
Melody Wilding
But, it's ironic to me how we spend so much of our time, 70, 80% of our lives at work, yet we really don't pay a lot of attention to probably the person we spend the most time with our boss, and that has the most influence over our career. And nor do we pay attention to the psychology behind that relationship, behind the power dynamics that are happening all around us.

00:03:34:01 - 00:03:56:08
Melody Wilding
No one ever teaches that. And so I started to realize that, wow, all of these psychological relationship elements, how you communicate, influence, persuade people. We need to give people those skills. Because as you rise higher, you know, this, that your your actual technical expertise. Yes, of course it's important. It's great to be a subject matter expert.

00:03:56:11 - 00:03:58:06
Kevin Eikenberry
You can be less and less important as time.

00:03:58:07 - 00:04:11:20
Melody Wilding
Exactly. You're your ability to navigate disagreements, to get buy in, to, to persuade people to take a certain course of action or believe in a vision that becomes so much more important.

00:04:11:22 - 00:04:34:20
Kevin Eikenberry
Yeah. So it's interesting to me because I know that, you know, this, this subject matter could apply to anyone, whether they're a leader. Aspire to be a leader. Never. I don't even know how to spell the word leader. Like it doesn't matter like everyone in the workplaces could apply to. And yet obviously we're talking most. So for all of you who are leaders, you can you may not you may not share it with your team.

00:04:34:20 - 00:04:53:11
Kevin Eikenberry
Actually, you probably do want to share it with your team, but certainly share it with others because the lens here is broader than perhaps some of the things that we talk about here. But but I do want to talk about Melody, because as I said in the open, even if I'm a leader, I've got a boss. And even if I'm the CEO, I've got a board.

00:04:53:11 - 00:05:18:18
Kevin Eikenberry
And even if I own the company, I have a spouse. And so, you know, like, it doesn't really matter. Like we all have that other person or people with positional power that we want to be aware of and think about. So, I want to make an observation that I hear all the time because I work with leaders and I'm in rooms and sessions with leaders, and I'm coaching leaders.

00:05:18:20 - 00:05:50:19
Kevin Eikenberry
It's it's a rare time that I have I'm with a group for a day, for example, where the conversation in some way doesn't come up. But what about my boss? Like they need to be in this class? Kevin why, why why have they taken this training? Like, why don't they get this? And so you say something in the opening of the book, in the introduction, the book, which I think is a really important place for us to start, because many of you who are watching or listening are thinking, this, well, it's not my problem, it's their problem.

00:05:50:22 - 00:06:07:23
Kevin Eikenberry
Like, why is this my responsibility? Why can't can't we just fix them? Like, why is this my responsibility to manage up? And so there's a little victim stuff there, but there's other reasons that I think that you hope can help people reframe this whole conversation a bit.

00:06:08:01 - 00:06:31:22
Melody Wilding
Yeah. And let me also say this is managing up is not a cop out for bad leadership or compensation for bad leadership. There's a both and here that the people who are in those positions do have a responsibility to get better. And it's also true that you can change your own behavior much more precisely and much more quickly, and you can't change the people around you.

00:06:31:22 - 00:06:38:08
Melody Wilding
There's always going to be imperfect bosses and imperfect situations.

00:06:38:10 - 00:06:50:21
Kevin Eikenberry
Perfect too. And oh, by the way, as you said, like we what do we have control of here? Our behavior, not the others, that we can influence the other person's behavior. The whole point of this conversation. But the control belongs with us, right? Go ahead.

00:06:50:23 - 00:07:11:15
Melody Wilding
Exactly. And at the end of the day, managing up is really something you do for yourself. I think when we hear the term managing up, especially those of us who remember a time before we had more enlightened workplaces, we think about the person who is the people pleaser, who is the yes person, who their boss says jump and you ask how high.

00:07:11:17 - 00:07:34:15
Melody Wilding
And that's not managing up that that is actually sucking up, managing up is. That's why the subtitle of the book is called Getting What You You Need from the People in charge, because good managing up is being able to create the conditions for your success. And sometimes that's saying the hard things. It's giving tough feedback in a diplomatic way.

00:07:34:19 - 00:07:53:13
Melody Wilding
It's being able to push back when they drop it. Yet another thing on your plate. But doing that in a more collaborative manner that still preserves the relationship. So it's about making sure your boss hears your ideas. You're getting the respect, the recognition that that you deserve.

00:07:53:15 - 00:08:20:10
Kevin Eikenberry
And so I think you put that in a healthy balance, like recognizing that this is our behavior, that we are in charge of our behavior and that we can own that in a way that is mutually beneficial. We're not just sucking up, but we're but we're clear about what our, needs are here. We may get to that a little bit more, but I want to say that, you know, this isn't the first book that's been written about managing up.

00:08:20:14 - 00:08:41:05
Kevin Eikenberry
It's not even the first good book that's been written about managing up. And we'll probably be in the show notes. Have I have thinking of at least one other that I think is also excellent in this area. What I love about this book, Melody, is the fact that you frame it around ten conversations. What are the kinds of things?

00:08:41:05 - 00:09:01:09
Kevin Eikenberry
What are the kinds of hard conversations that we might need to have, with our boss or with someone else above us? Positionally. Right. And so, I struggle with how do this there's no way we're going to be able to talk about ten. I don't want us to talk about ten. So I have a couple I'd like us to talk about.

00:09:01:09 - 00:09:16:09
Kevin Eikenberry
We don't you don't know which ones those are. So here's what I want you to do. I want you to pick one. Maybe pick the one that you want to talk about this morning, or maybe that you find comes up most often. Whatever you pick one. And then I've got a couple others. We'll go from there. How about that?

00:09:16:11 - 00:09:22:22
Melody Wilding
Oh, that sounds good, I like that. So I'm going to try. I want to see if the one I pick is the is one of the ones I would have been on your list.

00:09:23:00 - 00:09:44:05
Kevin Eikenberry
Well, I don't see that we can even decide whether that even matters, because, I mean, I've picked a couple that I think I picked, one that I think is a really, challenging one, that I hear about a lot. It's not the only one. Of course. They're all they're all excellent. So there's there's no right or wrong here about which one you pick.

00:09:45:14 - 00:09:48:11
Melody Wilding
I would love can I pick two?

00:09:48:12 - 00:09:55:13
Kevin Eikenberry
I guess so we only have we don't have all day. I don't I can talk all day, but the pick one. Let's go from there. Let's see what we got, okay?

00:09:55:15 - 00:09:57:20
Melody Wilding
Okay. How about the boundaries conversation?

00:09:57:20 - 00:10:02:11
Kevin Eikenberry
I'm not on my list. So let's start with the boundaries. It's a great one though. Go ahead.

00:10:02:13 - 00:10:28:00
Melody Wilding
Interesting okay. So yes. And also let me back up and say yes. There's there's so many great books out there about managing up. And what I wanted to do with this right, is present a new framework that gives people more of a methodology to follow. And so also you said something important as well that I just want to touch on that managing up has to go beyond your boss, because do not make your boss your single point of failure.

00:10:28:03 - 00:10:48:23
Melody Wilding
So we may circle back to that. But with the boundaries conversation, that's all about how do you say no? How do you push back in a tactful way? Because in the workplace, saying no is not a complete sentence. Unfortunately, I wish all of us could just go to our manager and say, no, I can't do that. I don't want to do that.

00:10:49:01 - 00:11:10:00
Melody Wilding
But we do have to strike this balance of being a team player and protecting our bandwidth and the rest of our team. Right. And so when it comes to the boundaries conversation, I always say, you know, don't swing. Sometimes we swing to extremes when someone approaches us, especially our boss, with a request. Sometimes we may be at the end of our rope.

00:11:10:00 - 00:11:22:08
Melody Wilding
We're so stressed out that we just say, no, I don't have time for that. We can't fit another thing in. Yeah, and you just you, you put up a wall and then imagine how that changes the dynamic, the relationship with your manager.

00:11:22:10 - 00:11:28:04
Kevin Eikenberry
Well, imagine if that was turned around. How are you going to feel as the receiver of that not so red hot. Right.

00:11:28:06 - 00:11:57:08
Melody Wilding
Exactly. Or we swing the other direction. Those of us that are recovering people pleasers will say, sure. Yep. And I'll figure it out. Some how. And usually that backfires. We burn out the work quality's not good, what have you. And so instead of either of those extremes, start with asking questions first. I know that seems so simple, but it really takes effort to train yourself into that behavior instead of just your automatic defensive or passive response.

00:11:57:10 - 00:12:06:23
Melody Wilding
And asking questions does a few things. It helps you get more information about the request to even assess. Would this be something I want to take on?

00:12:07:01 - 00:12:26:21
Kevin Eikenberry
I think a lot of times we hear from our boss and without asking any questions or without having any context which our boss may or may not have given us, then we assume this is supposed to go to the top of the plate and not necessarily that. And simple. Sometimes one question will like reframe this, signify gently.

00:12:26:21 - 00:12:28:01
Kevin Eikenberry
Right?

00:12:28:03 - 00:12:50:20
Melody Wilding
Yes. Or that this needs to be done tomorrow. When actually this could be something that you do piecemeal over time. Yeah. So we've been asking what's driving the urgency here. When do you really need this? By who else will this be visible to? What made me come to mind specifically for this project is there a specific skill set or aptitude that you have that they're trying to tap into?

00:12:50:22 - 00:13:21:17
Melody Wilding
Or maybe through this conversation, you figure out that, oh, actually, this other team is really where this would belong because they own that process. And so it it subtly puts the onus on the other person to think through and even kind of lightly justify why they're asking you. It shows you're willing to be a problem solver. Out of that, you may suss out actually, this would be great exposure to senior leadership, or this could be a great learning opportunity for me and another way.

00:13:21:19 - 00:13:27:02
Melody Wilding
Or you can find something to latch on to to say, actually, this isn't the best fit for me.

00:13:27:04 - 00:13:53:20
Kevin Eikenberry
The thing I like about this conversation is it also gets into expectations, because the other piece of this can be, once I know more like if Melody's my boss and we're having this conversation and I'm doing all the things she's just suggested that I do, I may now figure out or have the chance to, to realize that if this is more urgent, how does it how does it how does it re juggle the rest of the list.

00:13:53:21 - 00:14:13:21
Kevin Eikenberry
Right. And so it's it really allows us to have to continue to improve our expectations between us about all sorts of things, and not just this one thing. And so I just really love that. So again, the fact that I didn't pick it didn't mean it wasn't important. So how about we do this? I'll pick one and then I'll let you come back to number two.

00:14:13:21 - 00:14:14:09
Kevin Eikenberry
How about that?

00:14:14:15 - 00:14:15:09
Melody Wilding
Love that.

00:14:15:11 - 00:14:20:08
Kevin Eikenberry
Okay, so how about the feedback conversation?

00:14:20:10 - 00:14:23:17
Melody Wilding
Oh, yes. Also another like sort of dumped onto.

00:14:23:19 - 00:14:42:17
Kevin Eikenberry
Because that's why I picked it. It's kind of get the you kind of get the law and order music in the back right. That's right. Because you know, we all have. So first of all, I'm confident that Melody is going to help you think about this. But most of us, we hear the word feedback. We think, oh, spaghetti.

00:14:42:17 - 00:15:03:07
Kevin Eikenberry
Oh, we immediately go to the negative, negativity bias leads us there. And so this don't as she's starting this conversation, as you're listening to her, don't just assume that this has to be about something that's needs to be corrective. Although that might be the hardest. It really should apply across both positive and negative. So tell us about the feedback conversation.

00:15:03:09 - 00:15:24:04
Melody Wilding
Well that's so true because number one, we often think of feedback as something that only rolls down, that we are only giving to our team. We don't think about it going up the chain of command. But what I can tell you is that and I'm sure you you hear this too, with the leaders and the executives that you work with, that they will say, I'm not getting enough feedback from my people.

00:15:24:04 - 00:15:36:09
Melody Wilding
I don't know what's going on. I want to understand more about how I'm doing and what I can change. And so I think there's a reframe here that actually the people above you are hungry for input.

00:15:36:11 - 00:15:50:16
Kevin Eikenberry
They almost always even know you don't think so. Like there's a reason why there's a reason why CEOs went on this show called Undercover Boss and put on makeup and did this all the other stuff, in part because no one will tell them what's really going on.

00:15:50:18 - 00:16:25:19
Melody Wilding
Exactly, exactly. And they don't want you to be a jerk about it, of course, but they they want to hear that more than we think they do. And so that's the first thing. I think that you made a great point, that feedback is not always constructive or negative. And there's this concept in psychology known as the golden ratio that for every one piece of quote unquote negative constructive feedback that we give someone, we should be balancing that out with five other touch points of positive reinforcement or positive feedback.

00:16:25:21 - 00:16:45:07
Melody Wilding
And again, not saying to be a suck up or ingratiate yourself, or to be disingenuous, but those little, appreciations go a long way of, you know, it was. I really appreciated when you backed me up in that meeting or, it was really useful to hear your perspective on this. And that was actually something I applied with my own team.

00:16:45:09 - 00:17:08:13
Melody Wilding
Those go such a long way to build your rapport, and I think it's important to keep in mind that we need to fill that bank of social capital in trust with someone. If we then want to be able to have the hard conversations because a big element of trust comes down to benevolence. That's the fancy term in the research that means, does someone feel like you're on their side?

00:17:08:15 - 00:17:27:01
Melody Wilding
Does someone feel like you have their best interests at heart? That gives you the standing to then have a difficult conversation when you maybe feel like they're they're hovering or micromanaging your work a little. They're not giving you clear direction. Then you have more. You have more of a leg to stand on.

00:17:27:03 - 00:17:46:22
Kevin Eikenberry
One of the things that you talk about, and I'm not going to be able to get there quickly. I probably get there relatively quickly. In the book that I like is that you talk about this, I the idea, which I think is really important, I'm gonna see if I can just give you an example. We make an assumption based on when we make an assumption, which.

00:17:47:07 - 00:18:04:16
Kevin Eikenberry
Well, we all know what assumptions can do. Let's just start there. But we make an assumption that's based, that isn't really based on the behavior. And you talk about assumption behavior and then what the change could be. And so the and the assumptions are often labels. The very first one that you suggest is, well, my bosses are micromanager.

00:18:04:18 - 00:18:23:04
Kevin Eikenberry
So first of all, we don't want to go to the boss and say, well, you're micromanaging me, number one. But there's there's a fallacy even there. So can you just sort of walk us through that, like, here's what I'm feeling, or here's the assumption I'm making, and I need to reframe that even before I think about the feedback conversation.

00:18:23:06 - 00:18:35:08
Melody Wilding
Yeah, I think some of the, counterintuitive, counterintuitive ness of managing up is that so much of it requires you to manage yourself first before you then try to. I would.

00:18:35:08 - 00:18:37:16
Kevin Eikenberry
Say that's true when we're managing down to.

00:18:37:21 - 00:18:38:20
Melody Wilding
That's very true, as it.

00:18:38:20 - 00:18:41:08
Kevin Eikenberry
Turns out. But, but go ahead.

00:18:41:10 - 00:19:03:17
Melody Wilding
Yes, it's a great point. And so this is a great example of that, that before you approach your manager to give them constructive feedback, you want to get clear on those A, B, C's. What is the assumption you are making, as you said, the label or the accusation. And usually that's negative right? You're micromanager, you're flighty, you're favoring this person.

00:19:03:19 - 00:19:05:11
Melody Wilding
And so that's usually your.

00:19:05:12 - 00:19:08:21
Kevin Eikenberry
Give me all the stuff. Yeah. Unfair. Like all this stuff.

00:19:08:23 - 00:19:33:19
Melody Wilding
Yes exactly. And then get into the behavior. So what is the exact actions. Or if you were watching this as a movie, what proves that person is micromanaging you? Well, maybe they're asking to look at every single slide before you share it with a client and then see is about the change. What what can you propose about how you would like this to be different and not just?

00:19:33:19 - 00:19:57:22
Melody Wilding
I'd like you to get off my back, but what is something like, for example, could you bring them a list of all the accounts you oversee and say you'd like to sit together so you have greater clarity on which ones you can move ahead independently on versus which ones they need oversight on, because maybe that's changed. That allows you to have a more constructive conversation where you just focus on the B and the C.

00:19:58:00 - 00:20:08:05
Melody Wilding
Here is the behavior I'm seeing. Would you be open to trying this a different way or, making a different decision here? That's how you model.

00:20:08:05 - 00:20:28:07
Kevin Eikenberry
To me, if yes or whatever that might look like. Right? Absolutely. So I love that. Thanks for sharing that. Okay. So, we've each shared one. I'll let you give the second one. What's your set. What's your other one was feedback. Yeah it wasn't. It must not have been because you didn't go. You didn't say. Yeah. So I didn't pick the one that you were going to go with next.

00:20:28:09 - 00:20:32:07
Melody Wilding
Well I would love to talk about the styles conversation because I think I have a.

00:20:32:07 - 00:20:37:14
Kevin Eikenberry
Feeling that's going to be the other one that you want to talk about, because I even have the lower third there.

00:20:37:16 - 00:20:59:21
Melody Wilding
Yes. And I think this gets into a lot of your ideas around flexible leadership, right. That that we sort of the platinum rule instead of, well, the golden rule is treat others how you would want to be treated. The platinum rule is treat others how they want to be treated. And that's what the styles conversation is about is understanding and really mapping out.

00:20:59:21 - 00:21:24:00
Melody Wilding
Yes, these are my work preferences, my communications style. But I may be dealing with someone who is totally different than me. I may be someone. Yeah, I may be someone who wants a lot of context, who likes to make decisions more slowly and think about things before I take action. I may be weary of change. You may be working for a boss who wants things done yesterday.

00:21:24:00 - 00:21:44:11
Melody Wilding
They just want the bottom line and the bullet points. They care about the results and not the people involved. And so when you know that you don't have to change who you are, you don't have to be a chameleon and try to be someone you're not. But you can make just minor adjustments to how you're framing your message, presenting it so that the actual the person actually hears you.

00:21:44:11 - 00:21:46:10
Melody Wilding
At the end of the day.

00:21:46:12 - 00:22:04:04
Kevin Eikenberry
I don't know this for sure, and I didn't check, but I think it feels like it's the longest chapter, of the of the the, the chapters of the conversations. And you use a, you use a, a communication style model in there that's not unlike, although not exactly the same as many of the others out there.

00:22:04:10 - 00:22:21:13
Kevin Eikenberry
So, I would say to all of you that if you if you're familiar with disc or if you're which the model you're using very similar to disk, if you're using disk, if you're used to colors of use to animals or vegetables or minerals or Myers-Briggs or whatever it is, that you can you'll be able to make that connection.

00:22:22:01 - 00:22:49:20
Kevin Eikenberry
When you read this book and you read that chapter and, and melody, the thing that I think is so very important about that, and in fact, I would argue, I wouldn't argue, I would state that, that the biggest value of understanding styles is actually not understanding our, that the biggest value is actually that understanding the, a model which is simplified human behavior, of course, but understanding a model.

00:22:49:20 - 00:23:16:17
Kevin Eikenberry
So that I can move in the direction of my message being received by someone else. Right. So it's not about how I prefer it. It's it's about how they preferred message sent, message received message understood. Right. And so being able to flex in the direction of someone else's style, or even based on what you're seeing from them in this moment, is of tremendous value.

00:23:16:17 - 00:23:37:19
Kevin Eikenberry
And that's, that's not really the big idea in flexible leadership. But it is a point there that, we need to be ready and willing to shift our how, of approaching things. And I think you do a great job in the book and helping people think about giving them the handle around that. So if you don't have a, communication style model that you're familiar with, she's going to give you one.

00:23:38:00 - 00:23:58:13
Kevin Eikenberry
And if you have one, this is she's going to be able to augment your thinking about it, because too often what we do so well, I'm a owl, right. Or I'm a, I'm a high I or whatever it might be or I'm a f TJ whatever. Like no matter what it is. And then too often we take that on as our own.

00:23:58:13 - 00:24:06:00
Kevin Eikenberry
I love how you started by saying this isn't about changing who you are. It's about getting more effectiveness by understanding where the other person's.

00:24:06:02 - 00:24:31:17
Melody Wilding
That's exactly right. That's exactly right. And don't don't use the labels as a weapon against yourself that I can't change or as a weapon against the other person that, well, this this person is I call them the forces. And you're exactly right. Many of these models are based on the same idea that in psychology, communication styles boiled down again, we're generalizing human behavior, but boil down to dimensions of dominance and sociability.

00:24:31:17 - 00:24:54:11
Melody Wilding
And that's why you get these sort of four models right. And if you just say, oh, that person's a D, or as I would call them, a high commander in the book, they're difficult. They don't care about anyone involved. You have to realize what often we perceive as a person being difficult or impossible to work with, and sometimes we even jump to the label toxic.

00:24:54:11 - 00:25:16:14
Melody Wilding
We have to be careful with that. There are true toxic situations, but be careful that you're not labeling someone as difficult when they are just different from you. We really need to be watchful of that because then it dictates you. I think you mentioned that idea of confirmation bias before, and that's exactly what starts to happen as you start to see everything through that difficulty lens.

00:25:16:16 - 00:25:20:07
Melody Wilding
And that only hurts you at the end of the day.

00:25:20:09 - 00:25:43:01
Kevin Eikenberry
It hurts everybody, but certainly hurts you a lot. Right. And and here's the thing I like to think about. Like, if I can understand what what how can I make sure I'm getting their needs met? So that person that is a high commander style, there need is for some sense of control, for some sense of. Let's keep this ball moving, that some sense of let's make things happen.

00:25:43:03 - 00:26:05:03
Kevin Eikenberry
And and so how can I even if that's not my first inclination, help that need get met. And I can communicate most anything in a way that will help that need to get met. And if I can do that, my ability to get what I need. Even if Melody's Melody's my boss goes way up. Goes way up, right.

00:26:05:15 - 00:26:25:12
Kevin Eikenberry
So I want to share with you in one of our earlier books, we talked, it was actually in, in, I think we talked about it first in the long Distance leader. We talked about the idea of ethical visibility. And, and so because and I'm not I don't want to really explain it in great detail because this is a conversation I'm having with you.

00:26:25:12 - 00:26:43:18
Kevin Eikenberry
But you nodded your head as even as I said that, like, we would suggest that as a member of the team, wherever we sit, we're still on a team like that. We we, we want to and need to be visible, but not in a way that creates everyone else to roll their eyes or be that person. And so ethical visibility.

00:26:43:18 - 00:27:09:17
Kevin Eikenberry
I hear that throughout this book in terms of if you do, if you have the conversations in the way that you're suggesting we have them, that we will create this sense of of being empowered without being pushy, of being, helpful, without being without harming others, all of those sorts of things. You want to comment on that at all or make any comment there?

00:27:09:23 - 00:27:29:16
Melody Wilding
Yeah, yeah. And I love the idea of long distance leadership because we're all still functioning like that, whether we're we're hybrid and we're only in the office a few days or we're fully remote, we're working with a distributed team that's around the world. Work is so much more siloed. It's fractured. People don't get to see you as much interacting with the executive.

00:27:29:18 - 00:27:51:05
Melody Wilding
There's not these organic opportunities. So we have to be intentional about informing people, not just about what we're doing, but why it matters to the bigger, bigger picture. How is it creating a triple win for us? Yes, it's advancing our skills and the value we provide, but also creating value for our leaders and the organization as a whole.

00:27:51:11 - 00:28:15:15
Melody Wilding
Those are the things you want to draw attention to. And I use that word informing when I talk about visibility very intentionally, because visibility, it's not tooting your own horn for the sake of it. A big part of it is making sure the people above you have the data, have the stories that they need to run that up their own chain of command to make sure that your team is getting the resources.

00:28:15:15 - 00:28:37:19
Melody Wilding
You're in the room where the decisions are being made because managers are busy. You know, that's right. Especially middle management. And above, these people are being squeezed from every single direction. They don't have time to keep tabs on your work, and so do your leader a favor. Save them cognitive energy in your one on ones. Share with them.

00:28:37:22 - 00:29:09:05
Melody Wilding
Let me give you a rundown of the progress we've made. Not just status updates, but the progress, the outcomes, the results that we're getting. So your boss can just take that, can share that with their leadership. They're going to love you for making their life easier and guess what you're bringing attention to not only that, you're someone who accomplishes something, but they're also getting insight into how you think, the logic you use, the rationale, the level of strategic or critical thinking that shows your leadership capability as well.

00:29:09:20 - 00:29:42:17
Kevin Eikenberry
Before we start to wrap up, I want to make another comment and I'll let you add to it, comment on it, agree or disagree with it. And I'm flipping the script now, and I'm thinking about all of us as leaders trying to make it easier for our folks to manage up to us. Yes. And so one of the things that I, I think that if you asked any member of my team this they would they would say, I do this, I hope I, I not only do I hope, but I believe it's true that at the end of every one on one I will say, what?

00:29:42:17 - 00:30:02:08
Kevin Eikenberry
What do you need from me? Or, what feedback do you have from me? And so the reason that I'm suggesting that is that if you realize how hard having those upward conversations are, then what we can make sure we do is minimize how hard it is for our folks as much as we can. It's never going to go away.

00:30:02:09 - 00:30:11:21
Kevin Eikenberry
The positional power is never going to be equal. And that's okay. Right? And so any thoughts about that comment about that?

00:30:11:22 - 00:30:22:17
Melody Wilding
Yeah. I love this idea of how do you make it easier for people to manage up to you. That gets to the idea if you lead a team, get them this book so people know how to manage up to you more effectively.

00:30:22:17 - 00:30:38:17
Kevin Eikenberry
You might want to read your copy first so you know what they're going to do. But yeah, but I don't think anyone's going to have any problem with that. Like because these are what you're describing. I love the idea of the triple win. Right? I win, my boss wins, the organization wins, and we can get that to happen.

00:30:38:17 - 00:30:40:11
Kevin Eikenberry
We got we got something going on that's good.

00:30:40:11 - 00:31:02:13
Melody Wilding
Yeah that's right. And the idea of using the one on one's more effectively is great because ideally that's something that's happening every week or every other week. Those are such valuable opportunities. But often we squander them with just how are things going? Okay, everything's on track. Great. But you as a leader, you can use it, use the latter half of it to give them line of sight into what's happening.

00:31:02:16 - 00:31:21:14
Melody Wilding
What are you thinking about? What changes are coming down the pike, what, executive decisions have been made or priorities have changed that make sure that you're incorporating them more as a partner in the work, but then you're also giving your team an opportunity to say, you sound pretty busy. Would it be helpful if I sat in on that meeting instead?

00:31:21:14 - 00:31:45:01
Melody Wilding
It would be a great learning opportunity for me, and I love the how can I support you better? Or even up front having discussions about we're going to disagree. There's going to be points where we see things differently. How do you want to handle that? Me, as a leader, this would be my preference about how you bring things to me or how you frame them and propose them, but I want to make sure you feel comfortable doing that.

00:31:45:01 - 00:31:53:00
Melody Wilding
So having that up front, it gives people that psychological safety and permission to then have those conversations with you.

00:31:53:02 - 00:32:14:15
Kevin Eikenberry
Speaking of psychological safety, there's a question that I ask every guest, and usually I let them know ahead of time, like I learned, 450 episodes ago that I should really tell my guest, I'm going to ask this question, so I'm going to ask it now. And here's the here's the cycle. Here's the here's the net. If you don't have an answer or you can't think of one right away, it's okay.

00:32:14:17 - 00:32:15:14
Kevin Eikenberry
Fair.

00:32:15:16 - 00:32:16:15
Melody Wilding
Fair.

00:32:17:08 - 00:32:19:17
Kevin Eikenberry
What are you reading these days?

00:32:19:19 - 00:32:23:13
Melody Wilding
Oh, what am I reading these days? Is such a good one.

00:32:23:14 - 00:32:25:01
Kevin Eikenberry
Do you read recently?

00:32:25:03 - 00:32:43:21
Melody Wilding
Yeah, I am reading. I have a it is a very busy time for books. I don't know if you've noticed that, but there's a lot of new titles coming out, and I am very, I feel very privileged. I have a lot of friends and colleagues who have books coming out now, so I'm reading Tiny Experiments by my friend and Laura Lukens.

00:32:44:12 - 00:33:03:03
Melody Wilding
I'm looking forward to my book. Emily or my friend Emily on Halt has a book called Oh, flex, Flex Your Feelings that's coming up. That's about emotional resilience. And so those are two, but one when I'm reading now when I'm looking forward to that will be out soon.

00:33:03:04 - 00:33:12:16
Kevin Eikenberry
We will have both of those in the show notes. Everybody for you, two more questions for you. Melody. Melody. The first one is what do you do for fun?

00:33:12:18 - 00:33:35:00
Melody Wilding
What do I do for fun? I weight lift, and so I've been doing that since the pandemic and I love it. I absolutely love it. It is my favorite way to, since I spend a lot of my time in front of the computer. It's great to have a way to physically challenge myself, and just the thrill of feeling like you're you're exceeding your own limits is I love it.

00:33:35:02 - 00:33:56:08
Kevin Eikenberry
That means you've been doing it for five years, because as we're having this conversation, everybody, which is on March the 11th, this is the five year anniversary of when of when the World Health Organization said it's a pandemic. And that's something that's literally that and work for everybody. And I know that many of you are listening to this far after that, but it's maybe worth everyone's time to just take a couple of minutes.

00:33:56:12 - 00:34:14:15
Kevin Eikenberry
I'm going to be shooting a short video about this here soon, but like, what did you really learn from the pandemic? And there's obviously lots of things we learned. But I'm going to I'd like you to be saying about like, what did you learn about yourself? What did you learn about your, desires around work and that sort of thing?

00:34:14:15 - 00:34:23:13
Kevin Eikenberry
I think it's a worthwhile conversation. Melody, where can we learn more about your work? Where where where can people go to get the book? That sort of stuff?

00:34:23:15 - 00:34:40:03
Melody Wilding
You can head to managing up.com and all the details about the book will be there. Also, there is a form on that page. So if you want, the scripts, the different templates inside of the book, there's a form there. Just enter your order number and you'll be able to get those.

00:34:40:05 - 00:34:55:00
Kevin Eikenberry
There you go. Managing up.com I didn't have that in my notes. Right to put it on the screen. Melody thank you so much. But that will be in the show notes. Everybody managing up.com. Melody, thank you so much for being here. It's such a pleasure to have you.

00:34:55:02 - 00:34:56:15
Melody Wilding
Thanks for having me again.

00:34:56:17 - 00:35:15:15
Kevin Eikenberry
Before we go, though, and before I say finally say goodbye to Melody. The question that I need to ask all of you, the question that I ask you every episode. And if you've been here before, you know what I'm about to put on the screen now what? What action are you going to take as a result of this conversation?

00:35:15:15 - 00:35:36:19
Kevin Eikenberry
And hopefully you'll go get a copy of Managing Up the book. How to Get What You Need from the People in Charge by Melody. But beyond that, what ideas or insights did you get here that's useful? Like thinking about taking notes on what the expert said. But that's not the question. The question is, what are you going to do with that?

00:35:36:21 - 00:35:59:17
Kevin Eikenberry
And so maybe there was something that Melody shared about the feedback conversation or the style conversation or the boundaries conversation that really hit you and say, that's that's a conversation I need to have. That's something that's been bothering me, worrying me. I've got stress or anxiety about that, or I just feel like, my boss needs to know that so that we can have the triple win, whatever that might be.

00:35:59:19 - 00:36:15:09
Kevin Eikenberry
It's my hope that you will take that action. Because when you take that action, you'll get far more out of the time that you just invested than you would otherwise. Melody, again, thanks so much for being here. It's such a pleasure to have you, and you've written a great book is going to make a lot of difference for a lot of people.

00:36:15:11 - 00:36:17:20
Melody Wilding
Thank you so much, everybody.

00:36:18:01 - 00:36:40:03
Kevin Eikenberry
That's the end of this week's episode. You know, we'll be back, right? If unless this is your very first week, you know, we'll be back next week. If it is your very first week or your second or third, make sure you subscribe. Wherever you're listening to this so you don't miss any future episodes. I hope you'll do that and and then be back with us next week for another episode of the Remarkable Leadership Podcast.

00:36:40:08 - 00:36:40:21
Kevin Eikenberry
Thanks, everybody.